Declan Rice

[tetsujin1979]

Am I right in thinking that if he changes allegiances to England through FIFA, there's no coming back?

So it would be entirely possible that he could end up never being capped by England, but also unable to return to Ireland?
That is my understanding, once the paperwork is complete, he can only represent England from then on.

[IsMiseSean]

Ireland need to start weeding out these dual national lads early on. For instance, Conor Coventry (just an example) at West Ham should be called up to the Senior squad and if he refuses then out he goes.

He's probably the next in line.
Once the U19 campaign is over - he should be called up to the senior team, if he turns it down then his place in the U21s can go to someone else.

His connection to Ireland is closer than Rice & Grealish. Coventry's mother is Irish according to wikipedia.

[livehead1]

1 vs longs 17 for Ireland

I had meant to say in the last two years. Having checked it I think its closer to three.

Try not to get too hung-up on Ben Woodburn, I mean, you don't work for the FAI recruitment team...

[pineapple stu]

That is my understanding, once the paperwork is complete, he can only represent England from then on.
Which would probably imply the double-whammy of an upcoming England call-up so. Otherwise, no need to go actively sending in paperwork. (Though appreciate there's a time lag to process)

[greendeiseboy]

He's probably the next in line.
Once the U19 campaign is over - he should be called up to the senior team, if he turns it down then his place in the U21s can go to someone else.

His connection to Ireland is closer than Rice & Grealish. Coventry's mother is Irish according to wikipedia.

As far as I know his mother is from Kilkenny (stand to be corrected, but she's definitely Irish), Will Smallbone's mother is also from there.

Hopefully the Irish mammy can work to good effect in these cases so.

In the case of Rice, it was his mother's side that wanted him to play for England. (a bit of FB snooping will verify that)

[Closed Account 2]

we cant cheapen caps in the way you suggest

I'm not sure I'd agree with this for a few reasons.

1) Does it cheapen a cap that much by having him play 30 seconds in a game that's already been won Vs Moldova. We are not talking about players starting and playing the full 90 mins against say France in the Euros

2) With the situation like Rice you risk cheapening the caps anyway. He's cheapened three caps by now effectively making himself an ineligible player.

3) Rice and Grealish have eaten up places in our under age squads (and with Rice also the senior squad) for years and now it transpires that both no longer intend to play for us. This has robbed other genuine players of significant chunks of development and experience and that is likely to do far more damage to Irish football than locking down a waverer by throwing them on for 30 seconds.

[CraftyToePoke]

I'm not sure I'd agree with this for a few reasons.

1) Does it cheapen a cap that much by having him play 30 seconds in a game that's already been won Vs Moldova. We are not talking about players starting and playing the full 90 mins against say France in the Euros

2) With the situation like Rice you risk cheapening the caps anyway. He's cheapened three caps by now effectively making himself an ineligible player.

3) Rice and Grealish have eaten up places in our under age squads (and with Rice also the senior squad) for years and now it transpires that both no longer intend to play for us. This has robbed other genuine players of significant chunks of development and experience and that is likely to do far more damage to Irish football than locking down a waverer by throwing them on for 30 seconds.

Exactly.
They won't take the cap anyway if they are wavering, its a free fix.

[SkStu]

I'm not sure I'd agree with this for a few reasons.

1) Does it cheapen a cap that much by having him play 30 seconds in a game that's already been won Vs Moldova. We are not talking about players starting and playing the full 90 mins against say France in the Euros

2) With the situation like Rice you risk cheapening the caps anyway. He's cheapened three caps by now effectively making himself an ineligible player.

3) Rice and Grealish have eaten up places in our under age squads (and with Rice also the senior squad) for years and now it transpires that both no longer intend to play for us. This has robbed other genuine players of significant chunks of development and experience and that is likely to do far more damage to Irish football than locking down a waverer by throwing them on for 30 seconds.

Was going to post something similar to this. It actually doesn’t cheapen caps at all, instead it places a considerable up front value on a career in green.

[mark12345]

How anyone can be proud to be English especially in football I cannot fathom.

Seriously? They only invented the game. And I think they won the World Cup as well. We would never be proud of those achievements, now would we?
An awful lot of crying over spilled milk right now.

When the going gets tough the tough usually get going, so why are we whinging like babies right now?
I wish Declan Rice all the best in the remainder of his career, except when he plays against Ireland.
After that I won't give it a second thought. Get on with it, start developing our own talent, start importing some South American and African youth coaches and lets polish our own diamonds.

This should be a turning point in Irish football, where we can finally say we learned our lesson from the Declan Rice saga.
But you know we won't, we'll still be playing hoofball in 20 years time. And Rice will look back in 20 years time at us, and say to himself that he made the correct decision.

[The Fly]

I've forgotten about him already. I don't wish him ill and I certainly don't wish him well. Offering the latter is just a move away from lying down and letting him p*ss in your mouth.

Anyway...I hope the whole debacle acts as a wake up call for the FAI on how the 'get out of jail free card' the granny rule provides can no longer be relied upon.

I wouldn't despair about the future either, whatever about the present. There's some really eye-catching young talent in that 16 to 21 age bracket.

[Diggs246]

Lads we cant trick or cod people into playing for Ireland. Captain hindsight is great, but its not the way forward. I would like to ask all of you to check your posts before rhe build up to the Moldova and Wales double header and if you called for Rice to played please repost it. Is there 1 person who asked or suggested it?

[Closed Account 2]

Lads we cant trick or cod people into playing for Ireland. Captain hindsight is great, but its not the way forward. I would like to ask all of you to check your posts before rhe build up to the Moldova and Wales double header and if you called for Rice to played please repost it. Is there 1 person who asked or suggested it?


People were suggesting this policy back in 2015 at the time Grealish looked like slipping away.

https://foot.ie/threads/148358-Jack-Grealish?p=1840825&highlight=


Yeah I probably would advocate that. If we were comfortably winning against a minnow in a competitive game (e.g. 3 goal lead 2 mins to play and had a spare sub) I would do it. Certainly if we had an under 21 player who looked like a huge prospect and there was a chance another federation could pick him then yes I would cap-tie him. If we had forced the issue with Grealish a year or two ago then one of two things would have happened to him:

(a) he would have played for us and become cap-tied to us
(b) he would have said no and we would at least have had it made obvious that he saw his future with another national team

I supposed there is a possibility that (b) would have been fudged into a (c) where the FAI would have said "we don't want to put him under pressure" and the issue would have been kicked into the long grass, though it would have only delayed the decision.

With (a) you potentially get a quality player guaranteed to be tied to your team, even if he's a duffer you've only used 2-3 mins of (pretty much inconsequential) game time which could have gone to another player. With (b) well at least you know his heart isn't in it and you can drop him from the U-21s etc and let other, more committed players, develop in the youth teams.

[mark12345]

Don't think this proves much Diggs? I didn't look, but am guessing that no one was calling for Crowley's inclusion before those games. We were at the end of a campaign and the likelihood of a brand new player coming into the mix was really a non-starter given MON's methods, and truth be told most manager's methods. Point is, if he had been included from the beginning of the campaign (assuming he was eligible at that time) things might have worked out differently? Or perhaps not. But we'll never know until we try something different for our midfielders who have spent way too long studying cloud formation.

[TrapAPony]

Lads we cant trick or cod people into playing for Ireland.

It has nothing to do with tricking or codding people into playing for Ireland. It is about calling their bluff and weeding these lads out relatively early on.

[geysir]

That is my understanding, once the paperwork is complete, he can only represent England from then on.
I'm disappointed at the level of misunderstanding on this aspect:). Declan has to be capped by England at competitive level before he is regarded as officially 'switched'.
Same as Grealish became ineligible for Ireland once he was capped by England in a u21 qual, as a late sub.

If Declan is not capped at competitive level for England, in theory he can redeclare for Ireland.

Just why do you think there is so much fuss over MoN not capping Declan at senior competitive level? Being capped is is the Fifa equivalent of a baptism.

[Diggs246]

I'm disappointed at the level of misunderstanding (aka ignorance) on this aspect . Declan has to be capped by England at competitive level before he is regarded as officially 'switched'.
Same as Grealish became ineligible for Ireland once he was capped by England in a u21 qual, as a late sub.

If Rice is not capped at competitive level for England, in theory he can redeclare for Ireland

Thats not correct though. Once his clearance is passed to change association he is gone.

[DeLorean]

If Declan is not capped at competitive level for England, in theory he can redeclare for Ireland.

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect, Geysir. If you're only allowed one formal change of association, how then can he redeclare for Ireland after the paperwork has been completed?
This has been discussed in the same vein previously, maybe somebody can officially confirm one way or the other. Where is DannyInvincible anyway?

[Deckydee]

Ohhh- Nasty! > https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-6706439/Ireland-predators-Rice-no-turncoat-choosing-England.html

and a LOL > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8-gQRH8KH4

[pineapple stu]

Just why do you think there is so much fuss over MoN not capping Declan at senior competitive level? Being capped is is the Fifa equivalent of a baptism.
Because once you're capped at senior competitive level, you can't file papers to change associations.

But it can still follow that, once you file papers to change associations, you can't change back again. Those two options aren't mutually exclusive.

[TerryPhelan]

2761

Art. 8 of the Regulations Governing the Application of the FIFA Statutes (https://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/who-we-are/the-statutes.html). The key part is "he may, only once, request to change the association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the association of another country of which he holds nationality". So, once he has submitted the requisite written, substantiated request to FIFA to change from Ireland to England, Rice would be precluded from ever submitting a request to change back. Once FIFA approves the switch, it seems to me, that's it - there's no way back. If he withdrew his request, that would be different.

[DeLorean]

I'm disappointed with Geysir's level of misunderstanding on this aspect.

[osarusan]

This has come up before - the point at which a change of registration is considered to be irreversible.

Is it when somebody at FIFA stamps the word APPROVED on his application, or is it only when he actually makes that first competitive appearance for his new association.

I seems to remember a poster on here (Danny Invincible?) linking to some player who submitted such an application, wasn't capped by his new association within a couple of years (or something like that), and then went back to play for his original association.

Maybe my memory is wrong though, maybe the player just tried to do that, argued that it should be allowed, or something.

[DeLorean]

Is it when somebody at FIFA stamps the word APPROVED on his application, or is it only when he actually makes that first competitive appearance for his new association.

It seems clear enough to me it's the former. If it's the latter then surely that would be clearly stated.

[TerryPhelan]

I agree - seems clear that it's when the request is approved by FIFA. Based on the text, the scenario seems to be that you can request a change only once, and when FIFA approves that request, you can never change nationality again. It's irrelevant whether or not you actually play a competitive match for the national team.

For this reason, Grealish can never reclaim his Irish eligibility - even if he never plays for England - because he has already made his one request and it was approved by FIFA.

Rice has made his one request and, once approved by FIFA, will likewise be designated as English instead of Irish. He can never revert to being Irish as that would be a second request. The only possibility of him remaining Irish, as far as I can see, is if (a) FIFA rejects the request, or (b) he withdraws the request prior to FIFA making a decision. If he did the latter, he could never apply for a change of national affiliation ever again and (as far as I can see) would be Irish for life!

[NeverFeltBetter]

I'll admit, part of me would be curious to catch a glimpse of that alternate universe, and see if he would be picked to play for Ireland after all this.

It's a crappy situation, and the "proud Englishman" stuff seems tailor-made to enrage people who saw him put on an Irish shirt from underage to senior. The way this took so long to sort out also paints a negative picture of Rice. Who knows how he will actually get on under Southgate, is he really good enough for a consistent place in the English set-up?

[Closed Account]

This old chestnut......
If anyone want to read https://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay/ and find an answer, be my guest.
I don't remember any definitive proof either way. But let's not derail Declan Rice thread, fifa statutes or no fifa statutes, he won't play for Ireland again.

FYI, here's what I asked Fifa back in 2012

Subject: Eligiblity to play for Representative teams

Dear Sir or Madam,

I have a question regarding the 'Eligiblity to play for Representative teams' in the FIFA Statutes, particularly the 'Change of Association'.

After an association has submitted the appropriate request to FIFA declaring the a player wants to change association. When does the change come into effect? Is is when FIFA approves the request or when the player makes a competitive appearance for his new association?

I guess what I'm asking, is, if Player A, makes a request to change from Association A to Association B and the request is approved, can Player A change his mind and play for Association A again?

If not, how did Bobby Zamora play for Eng U21(in competition), declare for Trinidad and Tobago, not make an appearance, then subsequently play for England Seniors?

Kindest Regards
joe_denilson

And the reply

Dear Mr. _denilson,

Thank you for your enquiry.

We can answer your question as follows:
If a player has changed associations, but never played for the other association (youth matches not included as they are not counting as senior caps) he can switch to the other one again. Meaning, as long as a player has not played for any senior side he can switch associations as long as he wants to. Besides that, a change comes into effect when FIFA approves it.

Hopefully we have successfully responded to your query.

Thank you for your interest.


Kind regards,
*****
Communications & Public Affairs Division
FIFA - Fédération Internationale de Football Association
www.FIFA.com

[DeLorean]

I don't remember any definitive proof either way. But let's not derail Declan Rice thread, fifa statutes or no fifa statutes, he won't play for Ireland again.

Don't worry, it'll be gathering dust soon enough in the foot.ie basement.

[Diggs246]

This old chestnut......
If anyone want to read https://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay/ and find an answer, be my guest.
I don't remember any definitive proof either way. But let's not derail Declan Rice thread, fifa statutes or no fifa statutes, he won't play for Ireland again.

FYI, here's what I asked Fifa back in 2012


And the reply

I actually don't understand FIFA answer there? (I have a hangover that could kill a horse, which isn't helping)

[DeLorean]

I actually don't understand FIFA answer there? (I have a hangover that could kill a horse, which isn't helping)

Me neither really, and I'm fresh as a daisy :o

I presume the level of vagueness is the reason Joe doesn't see it as definitive proof either way though?

[osarusan]

Me neither really, and I'm fresh as a daisy :o

I presume the level of vagueness is the reason Joe doesn't see it as definitive proof either way though?
Yeah fairly unhelpful, and what you'd expect from somebody called *****.

[TerryPhelan]

FIFA discussing the topic of national eligibility now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abt9t_EuSC8

[punkrocket]

So what happens to his Irish passport now then?
Will it be shoved to the bottom of the sock drawer never to be seen again or post Brexit will he proudly be using it or the british one for his 2 weeks in Magaluf?
Will he secretly dig it out now and again and indulge in a wistful moment of nostalgia day dreaming of the misty mountains of Mullingar?

I'm just disappointed that we have lost a world class opportunity for food based puns.

[The Fly]

I'm just disappointed that we have lost a world class opportunity for food based puns.

Head over to ybig and fill your boots!

[Eminence Grise]

I'm just disappointed that we have lost a world class opportunity for food based puns.

You do know that reheating left-over rice is the main source of food poisoning from take-aways? In future we should stick to carbs that won't cause nausea.

[punkrocket]

Ergot grows on wild rice too, can do funny things to your head.

[geysir]

Because once you're capped at senior competitive level, you can't file papers to change associations.

But it can still follow that, once you file papers to change associations, you can't change back again. Those two options aren't mutually exclusive.
The wording of the switch rule appears to support that a player can only make one switch and that the switch is irreversible.
It also appears in another rule that a player needs to be resident 5 years in the new country before being eligible to play for that country, but that is not so and FIFA regularly dispense exception to the residency rule to children of immigrants /refugees/ the displaced. Yet that's not explicit in the text but in the practice. That rule is to protect players from being exploited not to punish

In relation to the switch rule, some players have boomeranged, funnily enough both are Australians, Milos Degenek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milos_Degenek) and Apostolos Giannou (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolos_Giannou)
I haven't come across a player being refused a reverse switch

This switch issue was originally discussed in the eligibility thread and I brought up an example of a an EPL player who applied for a switch, was called up by the new association (Trinidad?) but the player chose not to follow through. We speculated then on when the switch was actually activated and became irreversible.

edit --- I see Joe D has already posted about the player Zamora and the reply from FIFA confirms that the player can cancel the switch as long as he doesn't play.

On FIFA, the next change in the rules is likely to involve allowing a player to make a switch even though he/she was already capped at competitive senior level (one cap?)
The theme running through FIFA's rules and rule changes is that they continually support the player rights and not favour the associations cynical efforts to tie them down.

I might add that I could be mistaken in this interpretation of the switch affair, however it would be a first time getting something wrong in regards to all aspects of the eligibility rules discussed here over the last 11 years and Im the guy who explained many things to Danny re article 5 or 15 when he was in short pants.:)

[passinginterest]

Special Rice leaves Paddy’s field for English pudding.

[pineapple stu]

He's gone to find his Ambrosia.

Wait till he finds out Ambrosia Rice is ****e

[tricky_colour]

I was born in the England and have lived in the UK for most of my life. I have both a UK and an Irish passport. I don't go round wanting England to lose every game or anything like that, but I would rather have had one Irish cap than a plethora of one's for England. For me it's not 50:50, it's not an "agonising decision", for me it's not even a "decision" at all.

It depends, I think he only Irish on his paternal side, probably English on his maternal side, not sure what the case is with you? Irish on both side? That is very different, and it is more 50/50. Indeed as he was born in England it kind of makes him more English. I was born in England but both my parents were born in Ireland so I've no English blood. So it is a case of blood is thicker than water for me. If one of my parents was English it would be very different.

[geysir]

I'm disappointed with Geysir's level of misunderstanding on this aspect.
Share your great understanding of the matter at hand that leads you to be oh so dissapointed :rolleyes:

[tricky_colour]

Anyhow as one drama ends another begins!!!




LUCA CONNELL is the latest Irish youngster in England’s sights following Declan Rice’s switch.

Connell, 17, is on the Three Lions radar after a stunning start to his senior career with Bolton (https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/team/1417663/bolton-wanderers/) in the Championship.



Anyhow reading his tread here looks ominous. His wiki page said he had long term ambitions to play for England, that was then changed
to Ireland, the edits made by his uncle apparently, but anyone could edit it and say they were the Pope or whatever.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/NINTCHDBPICT000467506995.jpg?w=960



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/football/2018/10/03/TELEMMGLPICT000176678416_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bq5yQLQqe H37t50SCyM4-zeIYLoHy3rOIwgFU6xK4ra5M.jpeg?imwidth=450

He will probably end up playing for Croatia. He has the name and the look, bet he has a Croatian parent!

[irishfan86]

Would be terrible to lose Connell, looks a really stylish player with a lot of confidence. Could just be a promising start and will fade but I watched a Bolton match lately and he was very good.

[SkStu]

Not going to get my hopes up any more for these types of players. Or get in any way invested in them until/unless they are fully on board & tied to us or fully, unequivocally committed.

[dr_peepee]

I wish him the career he deserves..... Just like Stephen Ireland got. The sooner the thread gets moved out of this forum, the better.

[samhaydenjr]

OK, so here's what I hope happens to Rice... it's November 2021 at the Aviva Stadium. Due to a couple of injuries, fringe/squad player Rice is making his fifth/sixth/seventh appearance for England. 80 minutes into the second leg of the World Cup Play-off, the score is deadlocked when Alan Browne, making his 20th appearance (making up for lost time when a certain someone played in three friendlies for Ireland) plays a ball behind the defence. It looks like Rice has it covered because he has a two-yard start on the nearest Irish forward. Unfortunately for him, that Irish forward is Michael Obafemi (coincidentally making his twentieth appearance for Ireland) who turns on the afterburners, races past Rice and clips the ball over the English 'keeper, causing utter delirium in the stands.

Ireland see out the game and for the last ten minutes, every time Obafemi gets close to Rice, he grins and says "best decision I ever made"

[Charlie Darwin]

The most upsetting part of this whole fiasco is it means Paul O'Shea is able to say I told ya so.

[Eminence Grise]

Can we take the high moral ground on this, and start calling England 'Ireland B'?

[geysir]

These are strange times, a wannabe top team (world champions in their own head) poaching our players.

In the past if we lost out to a player, it was a player who was deluded way beyond the bounds of his ability that he was good enough to play for his other country, now I can't even remember his name, the Utrecht kid.
Every young footballer needs a father like Declan's father, "Son, you're only good enough for the likes of Ireland, you'll never make it bigger" just a pity his voice was drowned out by lure of better things.

[dr_peepee]

Go for the dented Car, son. The less attractive model...

[CraftyToePoke]

'I'm very Irish, my mum and dad were very Irish and Declan grew up in an Irish/English environment as a lot of people from London do. 'And so at the end of the day he had to make a choice and I have to support my son. 'I wouldn't have thought for 100 years he'd run out in an England shirt but he's got his reasons. 'It's just a shame really — fingers crossed it all goes well.'


- http://www.sport.net/declan-rices-dad-is-disappointed-his-son-decided-to-play-for-england-over-ireland_865878