Debate - Future of Youth Development in Irish Football

[Lionel Ritchie]

@tets I agree. Which is why I think the change to summer schoolboy football would be helpful as it would allow footballers of all levels and capabilities a better opportunity to develop to their full potential. I don't expect expect the vast, vast majority of young footballers to spend anything like that time playing. Maybe 'elite' youngsters of the calibre to which a young Duff would've belonged might. But I think the aim should be affording as many kids as possible, again kids of all levels and capabilities, the chance to play and engage with developing their footballing skills and get them playing the game regularly and habitually. That can't happen in the current set up. (My ten year old had every game and most training sessions between mid November and late February rubbed out due to weather). In that regard I may be deviating somewhat from Dokkters stated aim where he does have an emphasis on 'elite' young footballers. My emphasis is most certainly on non-elite. I just want to see more kids kicking a ball regularly. Get that right and the rest of the ducks might even line up in a row on their own.

[Bungle]

Kevin's drew 3-3 with Barca in the final but lost on peons. Very encouraging stuff.

[DeLorean]

Having watched "a bit of the under 21 game", Eamon Dunphy is "sort of horrified" as to our future prospects.

[paul_oshea]

Anyone see Football Focus on Saturday and the piece they did on Iceland and the football houses? A country that supposedly went near bankrupt could still fund this for their football. It brings me back to this thing I mentioned ages ago about playing conditions and the bad weather in ireland. They have developed technically better players since bringing in coaches and these "houses" - I'd imagine some of that is down to the artificial playing surface and the speed of the ball etc. It was a very intersting piece and got me back thinking about "long ball" hoof it up I used to hear so often when I was younger.

[tetsujin1979]

Having watch "a bit of the under 21 game", Eamon Dunphy is "sort of horrified" as to our future prospects.

He also described Alan Judge as a young player. He's 27.

[Stuttgart88]

Not as bad as Setanta who called our central midfielder on Friday "Niall Quinn".

[eitoof]

Having watch "a bit of the under 21 game", Eamon Dunphy is "sort of horrified" as to our future prospects.

Ah yes, top quality insight as usual from ole Drunky.

[Charlie Darwin]

He also described Alan Judge as a young player. He's 27.
He's the new "Young Hoolahan at Norwich".

[DannyInvincible]

Piece here by Ewan MacKenna on the potentially-bleak times ahead: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/irishnews/sport/article4723189.ece


The success of the senior team is masking the crisis at junior levels but a lack of planning means Ireland are lagging behind

So surprising was the statistic that it required a double-take. In the lead-up to tonight’s friendly with Slovakia, Wes Hoolahan was asked about his future and replied that he’d have to consider his international career after the European Championships because by then he’ll be 34.

Part of the jolt over his age can probably be chalked down to the fact that sadly he had to wait until mid-2013 for his first competitive start for Ireland, but a larger part is down to the fact that Ireland’s most talented player keeps this tag when his body is in decline. That’s a hugely concerning situation.

The danger amidst the upswing in results is that the major issues surrounding our lack of young players gets lost to the hype and hysteria. That’s not to take away from what Martin O’Neill and this Irish squad have achieved as, for the first time in over a decade, they’ve brought a passion back on to the field that has created a genuine excitement.

Given the quality at his disposal, what has been achieved is hugely impressive to the point where the attitude and growing confidence means one of the weakest squads that will go to France should be thinking about making it to the last 16 as a genuine possibility. Yet, what amounts to a mark of their brilliant efforts is an indictment of the FAI and that must not be overlooked.

...

It’s a broken-down conveyor belt and a lack of a system that means, under this FAI administration, across the 11 European Under-17 Championships we’ve made the finals just twice. It’s why in seven European Under-21 qualifying campaigns we’ve won 13 of 50 games and it’s why a Uefa analyst, when asked to survey Ireland in the context of the continent, said we’re “not keeping up”.

“What matters at the moment is there are better players coming from so many more countries than Ireland. That must be tackled,” he said.

Ireland’s senior success, it would seem, is providing an excuse not to.

What has to be done is obvious as we need only look to countries like Belgium and Uruguay who are comparable but who have revamped how they go about the game. A university study indicated that between the crucial formative ages of six and 16, central European players get an average of 14 times more touches a game than those from Ireland — and that’s multiplied by 14 rather than merely 14 more.

Meanwhile back in 2009, an review of our underage football structures was released but the Schoolboys Football Association of Ireland rejected 44 of its 51 recommendations and it remains untouched to this day.

...

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

One word - parochialism.

[tetsujin1979]

Steven Reid: FAI have to realise we will win nothing without kids - http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/steven-reid-fai-have-to-realise-we-will-win-nothing-without-kids-34615784.html

[Siberian]

Interesting piece in the Examiner yesterday - http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/political-impasse-but-irish-boys-rule-czechs-392504.html

I suppose the big question here is would local schoolboy clubs in the likes of Dublin, Limerick and Tipperary for example be willing to see their best u14 and u15 players go to the Academies of Shamrock Rovers, Limerick and Waterford Utd for the greater good of the development of Irish soccer? As it pointed out by St Kevins, it's not that the Schoolboy clubs are doing much wrong (and there are some very technically capable players in that U15 squad) but I'm assuming under LOI Academies they would have a lot more coaching sessions???

[backstothewall]

I'm completely ignorant about the politics of this but could the schoolboy clubs not simply become the academies of the LOI clubs? It seems to me that the common sense solution is a national setup of 16-20 schoolboy clubs with academy status, and with the majority linked to their nearest LOI club (e.g. Cherry Orchard-St. Pats).

The double sided advantage in those areas without a League of Ireland Club (like Tipperary) is that those schoolboy clubs could potentially be grown into one over the years.

[tetsujin1979]

it does seem to be the obvious solution, but I think the schoolboy clubs, and the LOI clubs (and by extension the FAI) have different goals
Like it or not, the aim of schoolboy clubs is to sell players to clubs in England (whether or not you'll get them to admit it is another thing), whereas the aim of the LOI clubs is to get a player into their senior side, and for the FAI it's to get a player into the senior international team.

[Siberian]

Not too sure I'd agree with you that the 'aim of Schoolboy clubs is to sell players to England'. I think most SB clubs take pleasure in seeing how young kids develop and of course they would like them to see them progress to the highest level. I think the key here is LOI clubs developing good academies and good regional scouting/programs and working with local Schoolboy clubs as opposed to be seeing to be nicking their best talent. Kids at this stage need to be playing more and more and I think good LOI Academies offer the best route. As far as I'm aware if LOI clubs then sell on to UK there is a compensation knock on for the local Schoolboy club where he started (however I believe it is a very complicated compensation process). However I think finance for most LOI clubs is a huge obstacle in developing proper Academies.

[backstothewall]

How do youth football clubs finance themselves these days? When i was playing as a kid there were dues for training and playing which combined with sponsorship from local businesses basically kept the club going.

As soon as a club becomes an academy with an FAI stamp of approval no one would want to pay dues anymore, and the would local business-owners be as quick to buy a kit for a club, or would they expect the FAI to do it? Would coaches who currently volunteer their time expect to be paid?

It soon adds up to a lot of money that i doubt the FAI have

[tetsujin1979]

Caught the very end of Off The Ball tonight driving home. Ruud Dokter is going to be in the show tomorrow afternoon to talk about something that's going to be in the morning's papers. No further details given, but sounds intriguing!

[eekers]

Caught the very end of Off The Ball tonight driving home. Ruud Dokter is going to be in the show tomorrow afternoon to talk about something that's going to be in the morning's papers. No further details given, but sounds intriguing!

https://twitter.com/ScanlonShane/status/721103246719393794

Duffer given new Ireland role - good scoop via @McDonnellDan (https://twitter.com/McDonnellDan) in Saturday's Irish Independent

[tetsujin1979]

Duff, Andrews, McPhail and Kinsella all to join the underage coaching setup: http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/other-soccer/exclusive-damien-duff-one-of-four-exinternationals-to-land-fai-coaching-role-34632200.html

Duff will work with the U-15 team, with McPhail offering his services at U-16 level, Andrews joining the U-17 side and Kinsella helping out Noel King's U-21 group.

[Deckydee]

FANTASTIC move imo. 'bout time the FAI did something

[tetsujin1979]

Interview with Doktor is online here: http://cdn.radiocms.net/media/001/audio/000022/135308_media_player_audio_file.mp3
audio quality isn't great is patches, sounds like they leaned away from the mic

Article covering it on newstalk's website: http://offtheball.newstalk.com/player/news/972.973/12731

[BonnieShels]

The doktor interview was great. But the whonging of Dion Fanning afterwards really did me in. He was the same again tonight on OTB when they referred back to the interview on Saturday.

[Closed Account]

Good interview with Dominic Foley
http://www.the42.ie/dominic-foley-june-2016-2799945-Jun2016/?utm_source=twitter_self
A lot of it already stated elsewhere and fairly well known but good to hear from another source.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Can we just start copying Iceland and be done with it?

[Eminence Grise]

Smashing idea, NeverFeltBettersson. One small change at a time - they all add up!

[passinginterest]

http://www.extratime.ie/newsdesk/articles/17261/youths-view-stephen-rice-of-the-fai-future-developers-squad/
Interesting interview with Stephen Rice on the work the FAI are doing to keep physically underdeveloped players around the national squads, also touches on the introduction of the under 15 national league and the impact of Dundalks European progress.

[tetsujin1979]

Interesting chat with Shane Supple on 98FM about his return to the game with Crumlin and Bohemians, and his work with kids moving to England: http://www.98fm.com/podcasts/Now_Thats_What_I_Call_Sport/98FM_Now_Thats_What_I_Call_Sport/53100/

[rebelmusic]

Any thoughts on this? Finally some decently sponsored 5 a side stuff at young ages.

The website though...ffs lads!

[tetsujin1979]

Saw this on linkedIn earlier: "Released at U16 - what next" https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/released-u16-what-next-howard-willmott

[Closed Account]

Thought provoking from Dave Henderson
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/state-of-play-time-for-a-rethink-at-irish-u-21-level-1.3022118
Didn't know Noel King was double jobbing it.

[tetsujin1979]

Irish teenage soccer player sues club for ‘trauma’ http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/irish-teenage-soccer-player-sues-club-for-trauma-787383.html
Can open, worms everywhere

[tetsujin1979]

TV3's Paul Byrne reporting he lost the case: https://twitter.com/PaulByrne_1/statuses/857618770881335297

Schoolboy footballer loses trauma claim against his former club @CarrigalineUtd (https://twitter.com/CarrigalineUtd). See #3News (https://twitter.com/hashtag/3News?src=hash) @5 (https://twitter.com/5).30. @FAIreland (https://twitter.com/FAIreland)

[BonnieShels]

Good.

[Stuttgart88]

Interesting article on the changing schoolboy scene, LOI underage sides vs traditional schoolboy clubs, FAI strategy of backing the LOI clubs rather than the schoolboy clubs etc.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/robinson-hits-back-at-criticism-of-hoops-plans-for-future-35661812.html

[OwlsFan]

TV3's Paul Byrne reporting he lost the case: https://twitter.com/PaulByrne_1/statuses/857618770881335297

He (or rather his father) was never going to win that case. Bizarre law suit. And Sheffield Wednesday were interested ? He would have soon been suffering from pre- mid term and post traumatic stress disorder !!

[SkStu]

Irish teenage soccer player sues club for ‘trauma’ http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/irish-teenage-soccer-player-sues-club-for-trauma-787383.html
Can open, worms everywhere

Snowflake.

[Charlie Darwin]

Snowflake.
No, you're the snowflake for thinking he's a snowflake.

Crap, I think that makes me a snowflake for pointing that out.

[SkStu]

sorry for the delay in responding but after that assault I just needed some time in my safe space.

[tetsujin1979]

discussion with Emmer Malone and Kenny Cunningham on the development of the underage setup on Off The Ball last night, on the podcast here: https://cdn.radiocms.net/media/001/audio/000030/193200_media_player_audio_file.mp3

[pineapple stu]

Bit of a relevant article in the Irish Times today - http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/state-of-play-player-development-is-in-crisis-and-the-fai-must-act-1.3113617

[Olé Olé]

Decent read but I think it sort of ignores that he situation is improving a lot. Could he not frame his discussion in the context that the number of players that started in the LOI in our current squad is at a high in the modern generation? Instead of comparing it to other countries.. I think our culture is changing somewhat in that footballers do see the current squad as an example of how one can stay in Ireland and get, at least, a leaving cert and will be picked up if they're good enough (see Ryan Manning and his 545 or so points).

[tetsujin1979]

Also no mention of the recent improving results for the u17 and u19 squads?

[pineapple stu]

Decent read but I think it sort of ignores that he situation is improving a lot.
Actually, I think the point is made that the situation is in fact disimproving. The point is made that there was more than 3 years without a single ex-LoI player breaking through to the national team, for example. The point is made that you have to be careful (as I think you've just done, and Gabay did) about believing the league will continue to supply players at the rate it has done (the full document actually goes into a lot more detail on that; it was online a while back - I'll see if I can dig it up)


Could he not frame his discussion in the context that the number of players that started in the LOI in our current squad is at a high in the modern generation? Instead of comparing it to other countries.
The league is compared to itself, and it's found that actually, the number of players is now starting to decrease. McClean is the last player to come through, and he's 28.

Comparison to other countries is hugely important when the LoI at its peak is still so far behind practically every other country in Europe.

[pineapple stu]

Also no mention of the recent improving results for the u17 and u19 squads?
Less relevant in the context of a professional route for players to progress from this level to full international.

That said, "improving results" for the u17s when they recently suffered their biggest ever defeat...?

[Olé Olé]

That said, "improving results" for the u17s when they recently suffered their biggest ever defeat...?

I think that is Completely unfair. Look at the rest of their results.

[pineapple stu]

Possibly. I think it's worth highlighting though.

But the point is players need a professional route from 17s/19s onwards - England has never been less of an option, and we don't have it in Ireland. So those teams are actually of limited relevance, IMO. (Leaving aside that underage teams often aren't a guide to future national team strength anyway - look at how few of the U-20 World Cup semi-finalists from Malaysia actually went anywhere)

Anyways, found the link for the report in full - https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3243292-LOIPathway.html#document/

[samhaydenjr]

Actually, I think the point is made that the situation is in fact disimproving. The point is made that there was more than 3 years without a single ex-LoI player breaking through to the national team, for example. The point is made that you have to be careful (as I think you've just done, and Gabay did) about believing the league will continue to supply players at the rate it has done (the full document actually goes into a lot more detail on that; it was online a while back - I'll see if I can dig it up)


The league is compared to itself, and it's found that actually, the number of players is now starting to decrease. McClean is the last player to come through, and he's 28.

Comparison to other countries is hugely important when the LoI at its peak is still so far behind practically every other country in Europe.

Em...what about Daryl Horgan, Andy Boyle and Alan Browne? And while Kevin Long went before McClean, his career has been bit more slow-burning but he now seems to be getting established and is still young enough that he can have 7-9 years ahead of him. If Ryan Manning keeps his current progress going he will surely be in the picture for a call-up sooner rather than later. Richie Towell is now at a Premier League club, although a good loan move next season might be best for him. Sean Maguire and Kevin O'Connor are going to get their shot next season. Ryan Delaney has shown a lot of promise during his loan at Cork City and will hopefully figure in Burton's first team when he returns. And there's a few former English Academy Cast-Offs who would be eyeing another shot across the water (Kieran Sadlier, Alex O'Hanlon, Brandon Miele). So there's no way I would say the ability of the League of Ireland to produce prospects for the National team is in permanent decline - it certainly dipped after the financial crisis but it's definitely on the rise again and is pretty close to the level achieved from 2003-2010 and might end up becoming better than that time if the underage link-ups work out.

[pineapple stu]

Sorry - i meant to come through as a national team regular.

Browne didn't play LoI. You answered your own point on Long. Horgan and Boyle may well be regulars, but it doesn't hide the fact that if they do become regulars, they'd be the first LoI ones in five years.

Towell, Maguire, etc, have done nothing yet. Maguire in particular could just be the next Roy O'Donovan, Dave Mooney or John O'Flynn. Miele is really scraping the barrel in fairness. There's been plenty of players who were going to be the next thing but haven't broken through - Hoban, Forrester and Kearns for example.

There's no evidence the LoI is on the rise again; the report seems to argue quite strongly against. There's certainly no point pretending all is rosy; we've an ageing team with a national league with an appalling track record, even at its peak, for developing players.

[Olé Olé]

Sorry - i meant to come through as a national team regular.

Browne didn't play LoI. You answered your own point on Long. Horgan and Boyle may well be regulars, but it doesn't hide the fact that if they do become regulars, they'd be the first LoI ones in five years.

Towell, Maguire, etc, have done nothing yet. Maguire in particular could just be the next Roy O'Donovan, Dave Mooney or John O'Flynn. Miele is really scraping the barrel in fairness. There's been plenty of players who were going to be the next thing but haven't broken through - Hoban, Forrester and Kearns for example.

There's no evidence the LoI is on the rise again; the report seems to argue quite strongly against. There's certainly no point pretending all is rosy; we've an ageing team with a national league with an appalling track record, even at its peak, for developing players.
Kearns disapppinted a lot. Forrester might and should come good yet.

[pineapple stu]

But this is it. It's easy to get excited about a top LoI player leaving the league to go abroad. But more often than not, they don't make it at international level. The report actually predicts that Forrester won't get capped because he went over at too low a level. Now, he might still get capped of course, but then the chances are it'll be for a team that won't be good enough to qualify for tournaments.

I think it's interesting that the 8 ex-LoI players in the Euro 2016 squad came from 7 different clubs. Most were largely pro at one stage or another. Now it's just Cork and Dundalk sending players over for the most part. We need full-time teams here to develop players, and we don't have them.

There's always exceptions of course. Which is why it's important to get away from big news items like Maguire and look at the data overall. Which the report does