Debate - Future of Youth Development in Irish Football

[nigel-harps1954]

It's a uniquely Irish trait to have a want, or perhaps a strong wish, to see Irish players play anywhere else except for in Ireland. It's nothing other than a strong anti-Irish football and anti-LOI stance, and nobody will convince me differently.

[pineapple stu]

I think in fairness there's a lot of work to be done domestically and that has to be acknowledged. I think it was Damien Duff recently who was pointing out that academy players here get half the time on the ball players in Europe or England do. Academies here are underfunded and run by volunteers for a large part. It's a problem.

But sending kids abroad at 16 is a problem too. That has to be acknowledged. It's good that's largely a thing of the past - particularly for the majority of players who don't make it, but even for the minority who do.

I think the ability to have senior ball here from 18 is a big plus though. I still don't see why the entire squad should be looking to leave that being and go into the first foreign academy that comes calling. And of course there's some players who it will suit to leave at 18. But it's not the be-all-and-end-all

[ifk101]

But sending kids abroad at 16 is a problem too.

It legalised child trafficking.

I'm on the Richard Dunne side of the fence (academies are factories). Yes there is a value there in learning the structures the game, but not necessarily for "that something extra". Ultimately it comes down to the individual and that individual's drive to succeed - and maybe the Irish structure finds that happy medium between structure uniform and individual. If you are good enough, the structures are there to learn the mechanics of the game and you'll get to test yourself in a competitive senior league, and from that, the option to move abroad is there when ready.

[SkStu]

It legalised child trafficking.

I'm on the Richard Dunne side of the fence (academies are factories). Yes there is a value there in learning the structures the game, but not necessarily for "that something extra". Ultimately it comes down to the individual and that individual's drive to succeed - and maybe the Irish structure finds that happy medium between structure uniform and individual. If you are good enough, the structures are there to learn the mechanics of the game and you'll get to test yourself in a competitive senior league, and from that, the option to move abroad is there when ready.

IFK, the Swedish and Danish leagues have always seemed to me to be countries where this was done well. Where the elite players left young-ish but the good players stayed, played and then moved to big leagues (and big teams) in their early to mid-twenties. Fair that’s still the case? What can Irish football and authorities be doing now that has worked well for Swedish system and players? Competitor sports and proximity to bigger leagues an issue there too, it seems, albeit I’d say a bit less so than here.

[elatedscum]

Why does the LoI have such a respectable record in the UEFA Youth League? We've seen a wide spread of LoI teams holding their own against some much bigger clubs



Results at youth level are only partially indicative of player development. There are players who will help you win games at U19 level, that will never have the skill set to succeed at senior level. There’s also tactical decisions that you can make which might help winning games at youth level but won’t be advantageous to the long term development of a player. I’m not saying this is often or always the case - and I do think learning to win is important trait for a young player to take on board. But not as simple as saying because we punch above our weight in the Uefa Youth League, we’re equally skilled in player development at that level.

[elatedscum]

Why is it so vital our players move to Italy, Belgium or England when they qualified ahead of Italy and matched Poland's recent results against Belgium and England?



It’s a bit of a weird one. England’s academy system has produced more quality players over the past decade than anywhere else in the world. The previous 20 or so years, they were really poor, which was detrimental to Ireland. The academies weren’t great (apart from Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, United and Southampton) and amongst the top 4 clubs there were no pathways to first team football which led to stagnation and basically undid the good work of the academy. But basically since maybe the class born in 1997, there’s been real quality and huge depth right down the league - and you can see that clubs from all over Europe are trying to sign young kids from English academies at 16, 17, 18. In that respect, Brexit has been a huge loss to us - because it was an easy avenue to the best academies in the world, it was right on our doorstep, just a 40 minute flight away and there was no language barrier - and if you look at the current crop coming through, they're almost all products of those academies. In Italy for example, clubs are notoriously conservative about giving young players an opportunity, if you look at the age profile of the national team, it’s always older - and if you look at the developmental path of the Italian senior squad, it generally requires a player to break through in Serie B or Serie C first.

[elatedscum]

Why did we lose by a bigger margin at this stage six years ago with a squad that included Lee O'Connor (Manchester United), Nathan Collins (Stoke), Aaron Connolly (Brighton) and Gavin Kilkenny (Bournemouth)?



Losing 7-0 to an older Germany team and losing 5-1 to an older Poland side are probably comparable in terms of results. It was probably also mitigated by the fact that was the last game of the group and we qualified anyway, so the result was irrelevant, as if we didn’t take points of Germany, it went down to head to head results between us and the other teams. And it was also an unusually young group

[elatedscum]

Why should we encourage sending 16-year-old kids abroad to a country where they've to learn a new language so they can have a 1% chance (if that) of making it as a pro? Do these elite academies even want them?



In fairness, the players who are good enough to be wanted by top academies don’t have a 1% of making it, it’s a lot higher, somewhere in the 50-70% range. If you look at the lads who have signed since abroad since Brexit, they’re not sure things, virtually no one is at that age, but they’re the high outcome players. For example, if you look at that team that lost to Germany six years ago, it probably contains about 13 out of 18 professionals. 1 premier league player (Collins), 3 championship players (Idah, Connolly, Kilkenny), 1 league 1 (Wright), 1 league 2 (O’Connor), 1 conference (Roache), 1 USL (Doherty), 6 LOI (maher, Redmond, ledwidge, Kavanagh, Bolger, Thompson - at least 4 would be pro, no?). The guys who I’m not sure about are Clarke, Nolan, Walsh, O’Farrell - and those guys who are out of the game were the guys who never signed for English clubs. Nowadays, it's the star underage players who are getting moves abroad (Heffernan, Zefi, Umeh, O'Mahony - with Curtis and Ferizaj the two other elite irish born talents - and those players are all high outcome lads).


Going away is not always negative, sometimes it can be the making of a person. One of my closest friends was an Ireland youth international and was really highly sought after. He went on trial to Liverpool first and then Spurs at about age 15. There was an incident in digs at Spurs. He went across with another Irish player. Separately, Spurs had signed a kid from abroad for huge money - and this kid found out my friend’s ethnic origin (where his father was from) and started to abuse and berate him because of it. The other irish player witnessed this and went over and punched the kid and gave him a bloody nose. The next day, Spurs found out about it and sent both players home. Then Gary Doherty who was at Spurs at the time wrote a letter to his club and to the FAI basically saying that they had brought shame to the country etc etc (interestingly, Stephen Kelly was the opposite, he was really supportive and checked in on both players afterwards). As a result of the letter, there was an agreement with the FAI and the club that the players wouldn’t be allowed to go on trial for the next year. The other kid signed for Liverpool based on the trial and my friend was left kicking his heels. About a year later, he got a really bad knee injury (ACL and MCL tear) - and from his perspective, he always felt had he been in an academy, he would have received better treatment from a better surgeon, better rehab, and especially faster treatment (as he was waiting for weeks if not months for the surgery to be scheduled. He recovered and went on to play for 2 LOI clubs between 18 and 21 before falling out of the game. Speaking to his father, his father always felt if he’d have been able to get out to go abroad, it would have done wonders for him. It’s not really spoken about much - but the environment as a young player at LOI clubs is often pretty grim and toxic. There’s a lot of people involved in stuff - less so once people reach a degree of success in the first team but at u19 level and at the fringes, there’s people involved in stuff, which isn’t conducive to long term success in life. There’s so much bravado and stupidity, if you’re not strong you end up, you end up hanging out with the wrong crowd.


Thinking about that, at a totally different leve, I remember myself, I moved clubs at 15 to one of three or four big Dublin schoolboys teams and it was a nightmare. I moved cause was an issue with my old manager, I dunno if it was mental health issues or alcoholism - I didn’t really understand it then and we were probably protected from it as it all fell apart. It was basically the start of the season, so players all went in different directions based on ability etc. I signed for a club and it was the weirdest experience. I had never been bullied or anything in my life, I’d played four sports as a kid at either provincial or national level, played football competitively since I was 6 and never had an issue. But from the first training session, it was just madness. Three or four leg breakers every training, trying to get a reaction, people punching you for no reason, guys driving mopeds at you - and there was nothing you could do, there’s was twenty of them, all mates, and there was you. And there was no protection at all. I dunno if it was how I looked or how I talked or cause I was keeping one of their mates out of the team - but whatever it was, I genuinely hated football for that year - and the reality is, I was only there because the manager had made an effort to make it happen, but there was no protection at all, and if anything it was almost encouraged - and at that age, I was too shy to really talk to my brother or parents about it - I wasn’t weak and I didn’t want to seem it - so I just dealt with it.


I probably haven’t thought about it for a decade - but I don’t think it’s changed much. My cousin is 19 and on the books of an LOI club, but his last season of playing DDSL before moving was mental. One of his teammates got sent off after some fight broke out and he went and took out a knife out. It was a ****ing friendly as well. It beggars belief. My cousin is the sweetest kid. Practically raised his younger siblings, got 580 points in his leaving or something. Was on trial in Italy at some point, didn’t make it - now, he’s lovely footballer, a really lovely footballer - but I don’t he really has the physical attributes to make it as a pro - maybe the right club at an early enough would have changed that. Saying that, he (or anyone else) didn’t deserve to have to worry about kids brandishing knives when he just wants to play football. And I’d rather him playing for Lincoln’s U18s or whoever than being part of something like that.

[elatedscum]

Why no mention of the fact that at 18, these players should be going into increasingly full-time senior setups, whereas abroad they'd be dumped in an U19s academy? I think the former is a big positive, especially if there's European football on offer too.



There’s no right answers. From a developmental perspective, it’s probably better for a player to join an English team at 16 than 18. You’re right that they’re almost certainly gonna play reserves at 18. The issue is, it feels like championship clubs rarely take a look at a player playing LOI at 21. So your ceiling is a move to League 1 or SPL. And everything needs to go right there - and then you can get a move to the championship. And from there, the premier league - but that’s probably a 5 season plan - and at that point clubs are already viewing you as old. I’d love to be able to run a case study where you could see how Ferguson, Collins, Moran, Knight and Bazunu did staying in LOI till 21. It might not even be about ability, it feels as though English sides have become more and more conservative about what they expect Irish kids can be able to do. Ferizaj might be the best example. A player sought after by premier league clubs and European clubs who’s family decided to keep him at rovers. Not a chance that a premier league team will sign him and introduce him into the first team at about 21 like Coleman and McClean did. But hopefully, things will accelerate fast once he makes the move. It's all a bit of coin toss. Lyons is probably happy he stayed, Brandon Kavanagh probably regrets it. Nathan Collins is happy he went, Kam Ledwidge probably regrets it. Etc etc.


I was thinking about Haaland’s development in the context of Ireland and how we would look to develop a player and then also Odegaard as a comparison.




Haaland:
Age 14/15, reserve football
Age 15/16, first division Norway (second tier)
Age 16/17, premier division Norway (first tier)
Age 17/18, premier division Norway (half season)
Age 18, austrian league
Age 19, austrian league (half season)
Age 19 Bundesliga (half season)
Age 20 Bundesliga
Age 21 Bundesliga
Age 22 Premier League


And in general he was playing for one of the best teams in each league he played in.


Meanwhile Odegaard:


Age 14, reserve football
Age 15, first division Norway
Age 16, Madrid youths (half season)
Age 16/17 Madrid youths
Age 17 Madrid youths (half season)
Age 18 dutch league (half season)
Age 18/19 dutch league
Age 19/20 dutch league
Age 20/21 Spanish league
Age 21/22 Premier league
Age 22/23 Premier league
Age 23/24 Premier league


Both arrived in the premier league at a top club but took very different routes to get there.

I’d love if we could get to the level Austria is at, where Bundesliga teams or Championship teams would be willing to buy a player and believe he could be good enough. But right now, we are selling to League 1, SPL and MLS. It’ll probably take a side reaching the champions league group to maybe have the knock-on that could propel us in that direction. I guess the first step is consistent European groups in the conference or the europa league and gradual incremental improvements - but it’s not easy, everyone across Europe has the same aims.


Most LOI clubs need investment when it comes to stadia, training facilities, youth academies and much more beyond that. if you gave me a club and a bag full of money, I’m not sure where I’d begin.

[ontheotherhand]

Why should we encourage sending 16-year-old kids abroad to a country where they've to learn a new language so they can have a 1% chance (if that) of making it as a pro? Do these elite academies even want them?



In fairness, the players who are good enough to be wanted by top academies don’t have a 1% of making it, it’s a lot higher, somewhere in the 50-70% range. If you look at the lads who have signed since abroad since Brexit, they’re not sure things, virtually no one is at that age, but they’re the high outcome players. For example, if you look at that team that lost to Germany six years ago, it probably contains about 13 out of 18 professionals. 1 premier league player (Collins), 3 championship players (Idah, Connolly, Kilkenny), 1 league 1 (Wright), 1 league 2 (O’Connor), 1 conference (Roache), 1 USL (Doherty), 6 LOI (maher, Redmond, ledwidge, Kavanagh, Bolger, Thompson - at least 4 would be pro, no?). The guys who I’m not sure about are Clarke, Nolan, Walsh, O’Farrell - and those guys who are out of the game were the guys who never signed for English clubs. Nowadays, it's the star underage players who are getting moves abroad (Heffernan, Zefi, Umeh, O'Mahony - with Curtis and Ferizaj the two other elite irish born talents - and those players are all high outcome lads).


Going away is not always negative, sometimes it can be the making of a person. One of my closest friends was an Ireland youth international and was really highly sought after. He went on trial to Liverpool first and then Spurs at about age 15. There was an incident in digs at Spurs. He went across with another Irish player. Separately, Spurs had signed a kid from abroad for huge money - and this kid found out my friend’s ethnic origin (where his father was from) and started to abuse and berate him because of it. The other irish player witnessed this and went over and punched the kid and gave him a bloody nose. The next day, Spurs found out about it and sent both players home. Then Gary Doherty who was at Spurs at the time wrote a letter to his club and to the FAI basically saying that they had brought shame to the country etc etc (interestingly, Stephen Kelly was the opposite, he was really supportive and checked in on both players afterwards). As a result of the letter, there was an agreement with the FAI and the club that the players wouldn’t be allowed to go on trial for the next year. The other kid signed for Liverpool based on the trial and my friend was left kicking his heels. About a year later, he got a really bad knee injury (ACL and MCL tear) - and from his perspective, he always felt had he been in an academy, he would have received better treatment from a better surgeon, better rehab, and especially faster treatment (as he was waiting for weeks if not months for the surgery to be scheduled. He recovered and went on to play for 2 LOI clubs between 18 and 21 before falling out of the game. Speaking to his father, his father always felt if he’d have been able to get out to go abroad, it would have done wonders for him. It’s not really spoken about much - but the environment as a young player at LOI clubs is often pretty grim and toxic. There’s a lot of people involved in stuff - less so once people reach a degree of success in the first team but at u19 level and at the fringes, there’s people involved in stuff, which isn’t conducive to long term success in life. There’s so much bravado and stupidity, if you’re not strong you end up, you end up hanging out with the wrong crowd.


Thinking about that, at a totally different leve, I remember myself, I moved clubs at 15 to one of three or four big Dublin schoolboys teams and it was a nightmare. I moved cause was an issue with my old manager, I dunno if it was mental health issues or alcoholism - I didn’t really understand it then and we were probably protected from it as it all fell apart. It was basically the start of the season, so players all went in different directions based on ability etc. I signed for a club and it was the weirdest experience. I had never been bullied or anything in my life, I’d played four sports as a kid at either provincial or national level, played football competitively since I was 6 and never had an issue. But from the first training session, it was just madness. Three or four leg breakers every training, trying to get a reaction, people punching you for no reason, guys driving mopeds at you - and there was nothing you could do, there’s was twenty of them, all mates, and there was you. And there was no protection at all. I dunno if it was how I looked or how I talked or cause I was keeping one of their mates out of the team - but whatever it was, I genuinely hated football for that year - and the reality is, I was only there because the manager had made an effort to make it happen, but there was no protection at all, and if anything it was almost encouraged - and at that age, I was too shy to really talk to my brother or parents about it - I wasn’t weak and I didn’t want to seem it - so I just dealt with it.


I probably haven’t thought about it for a decade - but I don’t think it’s changed much. My cousin is 19 and on the books of an LOI club, but his last season of playing DDSL before moving was mental. One of his teammates got sent off after some fight broke out and he went and took out a knife out. It was a ****ing friendly as well. It beggars belief. My cousin is the sweetest kid. Practically raised his younger siblings, got 580 points in his leaving or something. Was on trial in Italy at some point, didn’t make it - now, he’s lovely footballer, a really lovely footballer - but I don’t he really has the physical attributes to make it as a pro - maybe the right club at an early enough would have changed that. Saying that, he (or anyone else) didn’t deserve to have to worry about kids brandishing knives when he just wants to play football. And I’d rather him playing for Lincoln’s U18s or whoever than being part of something like that.


Pretty worrying stuff in your last paragraph there ES. Can I ask if you think that sort of environment exists across at LoI clubs in the present day or just the DDSL ones? I'm struggling to picture it happening at the Rovers academy but that's the only one I have experience with. I've assumed the likes of Ger O'Brien at Pats and the people at Bohs/Sligo etc are running fairly tight ships as well. You've said the English academies have changed a lot in 20 years and I've been working under the assumption that the LoI one's have been improving too. Through that lens I'm looking at the u-17s teams home grown nature as a huge plus. If we can get these lads a similar level of coaching to that age and then have the really exceptional ones go away for money at 18/19 I think we'd be in better shape.

As you sort of say, different pathways will suit different players. In the past our reliance on England probably worked out well for some but no so well for others as in your first anecdote. Best place for Irish football to be is to be able to cater to all sorts of individuals, e.g. the Fergusons and Bazunus but also the Curtis', Coleman's and Razis. I think the reaction to Eirambler's posts was down to the fact that it seemed to want us to ship everyone abroad at the first opportunity. He may not have meant it in that way.

[Eirambler]

I don't have much spare time at the moment, though I had hoped to try to find the time to respond to Stu's list of questions, because there was quite a bit I wanted to say. However, ES has answered the points to a level of depth and knowledge that I couldn't hope to compete with anyway, and I pretty much agree with all he says, so probably just best to leave it at that.

Just to be clear, I'm not by any means saying that every Irish player should leave at the first available opportunity. However I do firmly believe that, for the players with elite potential, it is likely to be detrimental for them to stay on in Ireland too long beyond 16 unfortunately. I get the point about the difficulty of uprooting a 16 or 17 year old, but it's a necessary evil for the best players unfortunately, it just is what it is, always has been. It doesn't just happen in football and it doesn't just happen in Ireland. And calling it legalised child trafficking or whatever the phrase was is massively OTT hyperbole.

"From a developmental perspective, it’s probably better for a player to join an English team at 16 than 18. You’re right that they’re almost certainly gonna play reserves at 18. The issue is, it feels like championship clubs rarely take a look at a player playing LOI at 21. So your ceiling is a move to League 1 or SPL. And everything needs to go right there - and then you can get a move to the championship. And from there, the premier league - but that’s probably a 5 season plan - and at that point clubs are already viewing you as old."

This is probably the key point for me. Of the relatively few that stay in Ireland and do go on to succeed - it feels like they're almost always late developers, playing catch up and reaching their potential relatively late in what is already a short career. I do wonder if someone like Seamus Coleman had found his way to England at 16 or 17, if he would have ended up at a top end club, winning major trophies and playing Champions League year on year. Because he was good enough for that. But it's so competitive in the top leagues now, you really need to hit the ground running as a young player if you're going to achieve at that level of the game.

[pineapple stu]

Well Poland banged in five again (and against the hosts), so I think we do need to acknowledge that they're probably quite a good team.


Just to be clear, I'm not by any means saying that every Irish player should leave at the first available opportunity.
Well this is good, because it's certainly the meaning I took from your many comments prior to now. otoh seems to agree when he says "I think the reaction to Eirambler's posts was down to the fact that it seemed to want us to ship everyone abroad at the first opportunity."


In fairness, the players who are good enough to be wanted by top academies don’t have a 1% of making it, it’s a lot higher, somewhere in the 50-70% range. If you look at the lads who have signed since abroad since Brexit, they’re not sure things, virtually no one is at that age, but they’re the high outcome players. For example, if you look at that team that lost to Germany six years ago, it probably contains about 13 out of 18 professionals.
50-70% sounds quite high - is there even room in the professional setup for 50%-70% of 16-year-olds to make it each year? (I assume by "top academies", you mean one of the 28 Category One academies in England). I'd be sceptical about that one tbh. (Here's (https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/28950665) a report from the BBC in 2014 which says that of those entering academies at 16, 50% will have dropped out of the game within two years, and more than 75% will be gone by the age of 21. It doesn't say what level of academy it's looking at, though all the players interviewed were at reasonably top teams)

[Eirambler]

You've got to remember though that, even before the Brexit issues came up, it was a lot harder to get into an academy of a Premier League or Championship club as an Irish player than as an English player. Simply based on geography and logistics really. So, while those stats will have been correct across the academies as a whole, the success rate for Irish players has always been considerably higher than that. Probably not 70%, but certainly many multiples of the 1% being suggested.

[pineapple stu]

I'm not sure how relevant Brexit is for academies - most countries don't send their players abroad at 18 anyway so academy teams tend to be fairly local afaik.

The 2018 Euro U17 squad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_UEFA_European_Under-17_Championship_squads#Republic_of_Ireland) - which had two LoI players - already has 35% of the players not in a professional league. Elated has shown similar figures for 2017 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_UEFA_European_Under-17_Championship_squads#Republic_of_Ireland). It's already higher for the 2019 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_UEFA_European_Under-17_Championship_squads#Republic_of_Ireland) Euros squad (who qualified as hosts, not on merit, so maybe unfair to expect them to be on the same level); that had four Irish-based players

I'm assuming here all the LoI players are pro, but really you should differentiate between players who may go back abroad (McEneff at Derry) and those who almost certainly won't, who may be part-time and indeed may drop down further in the next couple of years (Coffey and Corcoran at Cork, Ledwidge at Shels).

And that's of our finals squad, which is supposed to be the best prospects. Success may be higher than 1% but it can't be 50%.

[pineapple stu]

We need to put an end to this "Brexit is the best thing to happen" nonsense
It is though - or certainly it has the potential to be.

The national team's decline can be directly linked to the abolition of the three foreigners rule and the rapid injection of money into the Premier League. Since then, the number of Irish players in the Premier League has been on a steady decline - the English teams simply don't need us anywhere near as much as before. It must be a decade now since we had a regular player in the Champions League. The last couple of weeks there hasn't even been a single starter in the Premier League. We're doing ok for Championship players, but that's a another step down from the previous two levels.

We can't keep embracing the system that's turned its back on us. We can only fall further behind that way. So anything which (a) forces attention on developing our academies here and (b) leads to more money to fund that (and 18-year-olds will go for better transfer deals than 16-year-olds, by and large) has to be a positive. Not ideal maybe, but it's time for us as a football country to grow up and take control of our own players' development. Like every other country.

And I think given your comments after the defeat against Poland (that staying with the LoI was "for the birds") probably needs some reassessment after the win over Wales and Poland's five-goal haul against Hungary, which can now be added to similar hauls against Uzbekistan, England, Andorra (6), Belgium, Sweden and Slovakia.

[tetsujin1979]

Best thing to happen might be overstating it, but it's certainly the biggest opportunity for improvement in the underage system here that I can think of

[Eirambler]

And I think given your comments after the defeat against Poland (that staying with the LoI was "for the birds") probably needs some reassessment after the win over Wales and Poland's five-goal haul against Hungary, which can now be added to similar hauls against Uzbekistan, England, Andorra (6), Belgium, Sweden and Slovakia.

I have no idea how you've come to the conclusion that I should be revisiting my comment that players voluntarily choosing to stay in Ireland until they are 21 is for the birds because we beat Wales in an Under 17 game, but anyway...I'd say now if you asked the 20 lads out in Hungary if they'd rather be playing in the League of Ireland or for a Premier League or Championship team when they're 21 you'd get a fairly uniform answer from the lot of them, and it wouldn't be to say that they go to bed at night dreaming of another four years at St Pat's or whoever.

The irony though is that, if a proper domestic youth development setup was ever to be formed in Ireland, it's your English clubs, who have apparently turned their backs on us, that are probably your best bet to make it happen.

We've already seen one or two sniffing around and if there's a genuine belief that there are more Evan Fergusons to be found here, they're the ones with the capital to effectively take over an Irish club and put the structures in place. Because, if you're waiting for the FAI or the League of Ireland to fund the necessary coaches and facilities themselves, you'll be waiting a long time sadly.

[pineapple stu]

I have no idea how you've come to the conclusion that I should be revisiting my comment that players voluntarily choosing to stay in Ireland until they are 21 is for the birds because we beat Wales in an Under 17 game,
Well you were rather vocal in what seemed to be schadenfreude after the Poland game, so it seemed only reasonable to look at more than one game.


I'd say now if you asked the 20 lads out in Hungary if they'd rather be playing in the League of Ireland or for a Premier League or Championship team when they're 21 you'd get a fairly uniform answer from the lot of them
Not sure what the relevance of that is. What they want isn't necessarily what's best for them. And it's not quite what I'm suggesting either. Is it better, between the ages of 18-21, to play senior professional football (including Europe) or play in an academy abroad? And it'll differ for different players of course



The irony though is that, if a proper domestic youth development setup was ever to be formed in Ireland, it's your English clubs, who have apparently turned their backs on us, that are probably your best bet to make it happen.
Where's the irony? You hardly disagree young Irish players are making less of an impact than ever before? But the LoI generated around €1m in transfer fees in the past year - a tiny fraction of the around £1bn English teams spend nett per year, money which filters down to and funds lots of European leagues. Except ours, because we insist on sending school kids abroad at 16 for pennies. We need the players to justify that value of course, and to have another €1m+ earned this year. But it's the way pretty much every minor European league operates.

Our way is long broken. The only irony here is that we're now being forced to do what's best for us

[Eirambler]

Well you were rather vocal in what seemed to be schadenfreude after the Poland game, so it seemed only reasonable to look at more than one game.


What difference does that game make though - that comment was in relation to a (frankly ridiculous) suggestion that players should be held back in Ireland until they are 21, neither a win nor a loss at Under 17 level has any relevance to my opinion on that to be quite honest.



Not sure what the relevance of that is. What they want isn't necessarily what's best for them. And it's not quite what I'm suggesting either. Is it better, between the ages of 18-21, to play senior professional football (including Europe) or play in an academy abroad? And it'll differ for different players of course.

The general answer is that it is better to do both - gain the benefit of better coaching and facilities AND get first team football experience as well. Most Irish players that go abroad either get first team football with their new club by 21, or go out on loan. So most get the combination of both facilities/coaching and senior football experience. No question the ones that stay will get the first team football, but they won't get the coaching - the stats show that in black and white. So they can never get the preferable combination of both by staying back in Ireland.



Where's the irony? You hardly disagree young Irish players are making less of an impact than ever before? But the LoI generated around €1m in transfer fees in the past year - a tiny fraction of the around £1bn English teams spend nett per year, money which filters down to and funds lots of European leagues. Except ours, because we insist on sending school kids abroad at 16 for pennies. We need the players to justify that value of course, and to have another €1m+ earned this year. But it's the way pretty much every minor European league operates.


English clubs were as active in terms of scouting Irish players right up to the Brexit cut off as they ever were, they never turned their back. Unfortunately, as most of us know, pretty much nobody of international standard came out of Ireland for about five years across the groups born between 1993 and 1997. That's just the way of it for a small country like us, every few decades you'll have a horrible dry patch like we did. From the 98/99 groups onwards we had a few come through again and we've seen that, for those that are good enough, there's still plenty of opportunity in the Premier League, more than a dozen Irish players born 1998 or later have already played in the EPL - and one of them is the highest scoring teenager in that league this season.

The irony I'm talking about is that the very league you seem to frame as being a problem for us is the one that's most likely to provide the finances if we are to ever put some kind of half decent system in place at home. But, unless and until that domestic setup is actually in place, people need to stop telling themselves that players are somehow benefitting from reduced access to top level coaching and facilities - when it's fairly obvious that they won't be - and that the solution is to somehow try to restrict their access further in the hope that that approach will somehow cause coaches, facilities and contact hours at domestic teams to somehow magically improve.

[tetsujin1979]

development posts moved

[pineapple stu]

What difference does that game make though - that comment was in relation to a (frankly ridiculous) suggestion that players should be held back in Ireland until they are 21, neither a win nor a loss at Under 17 level has any relevance to my opinion on that to be quite honest.
But if neither one win now a loss has any relevance to your opinion, why were you so quick to pile on after the Poland defeat? That was one game, after all.

And for the record, I'm not suggesting that all players stay in Ireland until they're 21. I'm suggesting that what is "frankly ridiculous" is your suggestion that everyone should skip the country to the first academy that comes calling on their 18th birthday. We should aim to have players staying here till they're 21 or so - like in most other countries across the continent - but we're certainly not ready for that.


So most get the combination of both facilities/coaching and senior football experience. No question the ones that stay will get the first team football, but they won't get the coaching - the stats show that in black and white.
What stats show that? The only stats you've shown relate to academy coaches in various countries, and yeah, we trail badly there. But I keep trying to compare academy in England v senior first-team here, which is different.


English clubs were as active in terms of scouting Irish players right up to the Brexit cut off as they ever were, they never turned their back.
Ah they did though. You talk of the age group born between 1993 and 1997 - but this goes back way before then. The three foreigners rule went in 1996. At that stage, you had some 16-year-olds already in England, but from then on, numbers have been declining - and you can chart that decline from around 2002. There's been a steady decline in Irish players in the Premier League since then (and the CL, by extension), culminating in this season where the total minutes played are less than 20% of what they were at the peak. (And the two players with the highest totals are likely to be relegated, though Ferguson/Cullen may offset that). So this isn't a 1993-1997 lull; this is a constant decline since the 1980 group or so. That's why the national team has been in decline since the mid 00s.

So the problem is that we depended on England to develop our young players for decades - but they don't need us as much any more. But yeah, if - with our players now having to stay here till 18, and maybe staying a bit longer to get first-team experience - we start generating a million in transfer fees a year from the English leagues, like we did this year, that's a huge benefit. It's how lots of other leagues fund themselves.

Just to add to a link to a 2016 article (https://www.wsc.co.uk/stories/increase-in-minors-moving-abroad-poses-serious-risks-to-players-and-clubs/) on When Saturday Comes' website, which cites a report from the Football Observatory on players moving abroad -


all things being equal, players having left their country under the age of 18 have, on average, less rewarding careers than footballers who left later with more experience under their belt.

This result indicates that the premature international migration of inexperienced players poses serious risks for both the footballers concerned and the teams recruiting them. Unfortunately, in spite of all sporting logic, in an overly speculative context where numerous actors make their living out of player transfers, the international flow of minors increases with each year.
Possibly moving from Ireland to England is lower down than, say, moving from Africa to England - though the report itself has such local migration as by far the most likely (eg Belgium to Holland, Holland to England, etc). So it's still a pretty damning statement. And we're a complete outlier when it comes to sending underage players abroad; there was a UEFA report a couple of years ago that showed that.

[pineapple stu]

development posts moved
Cheers tets - I actually just sent a comment saying it was a good idea, but you moved them in between, so ignore me! :)

[tetsujin1979]

Cheers tets - I actually just sent a comment saying it was a good idea, but you moved them in between, so ignore me! :)
no problem, let me know if there's any other posts that should be moved, or moved back.

[samhaydenjr]

no problem, let me know if there's any other posts that should be moved, or moved back.

Maybe the graph that shows number of academy coaches. And again, it shows why Croatia are so successful, with over 10 academy coaches per top-flight club. And, as I did with the 2018 squad, I had a look at the wikipedia pages of their squad from 2022 and found that 19 of their 26 started their senior careers in the Croatian league ( a couple were born outside Croatia, a couple more had youth careers in Croatia before moving and eventually moving back)

And once again, it's a country with a smaller population and far less wealth. And the league itself has an average attendance that is now about the same as the LOI's this season. How much would it cost to add a couple of coaches to every LOI club? A couple of million euros per year? The Irish government and the FAI can't come up with that to ensure the long-term success of the national team.

Keep our young stars in Ireland until their 18-21, get them playing senior football early, make it known that every LOI game will feature a couple of future Irish internationals, get attendances up further, get higher transfer fees when they do move.

But they need enough coaches to be able to get tailored support and guidance. The U-17s are doing great with what they have, imagine if they had more support. Brexit could be a curse or a blessing - it's up to the authorities to decide which it will be.

[tetsujin1979]

The graph is relevant to both discussions, so quoting it here

1660063986933481473

The graph on this tweet tells its own story. Poland with an average of more than 10 dedicated youth coaches per top flight club. Ireland with less than one. And Poland aren't even the outlier here, we are. We need to put an end to this "Brexit is the best thing to happen" nonsense - it's the exact opposite.

[sbgawa]

I disagree , Brexit is the best thing to happen, without question.
If we keep our players for longer and get actual transfers instead of zero when the boys head over at 15 or 16 the clubs can invest in more coaches for the academies as there is a potential return available.

Its entirely likely that some of the lads playing in the u17 championships will be bought by european clubs following the tournamnet or when they hit 18 by UK clubs , in previous years most of these boys would have been gone already with no fees paid.

This money can help to fund coaches

[Eirambler]

But meanwhile, the current group aren't getting the best possible coaching as we can see from the stats above. It feels like they may end up being disadvantaged on the basis that much higher transfer fees from their sale (that I have little confidence in the clubs successfully negotiating in any case) might be used to fund a better setup for future generations (or they could as easily be wasted on other stuff). But my guess is they'll still leave for pennies when they do go and we'll be hearing the same thing again about the next generation after them.

It's not for these lads to fund the future of Irish football, it's up to the association and the clubs to find more appropriate means of doing that.

[ifk101]

Eirambler.

I had a quick read of that report and maybe those charts give an incorrect picture? There are based on a summer 2019 questionnaire survey with clubs in the top tier of the LOI at the time (i.e. pre-Brexit – have “structures” changed since then?). Comparisons in the chart are with the top-tier in other countries – i.e. financially larger clubs with “in-house” youth development. This differs from the LOI as youth development is more in terms of club partnerships – for example, Bohs and Rovers have an affiliate club model (Maybe this skews the number of (directly employed) coaches figures?). And add to this is the fact we have literally outsourced the development of our elite youth players – from schoolboy clubs directly to the UK, bypassing LOI structures. The amount of U18 kids we have sent abroad is frankly shameful. No other country is close to our outward U18 transfers in the period 2011 – 2020 – see here https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/47c2f0047dd61f3b/original/FIFA-Ten-Years-International-Transfers-Report.pdf) (Not seeing the benefits in the senior team from sending so many away btw.)

Can’t really expect the LOI to have and to fund elite youth training academies when we’ve given away the elite to populate those academies. And you can’t use that as an argument for continuing to send kids abroad as that is literally the reason our infrastructure is behind the rest of Europe. Brexit is clearly an opportunity to improve and fine tune structures, and if a kid really wants to good abroad, the continent remains open to them (I'm sure a few of our current U17 internationals are catching eyes atm).

[passinginterest]

The league of Ireland academy structures are also a very recent development. It's taken time to get them in place and the resources are only really starting to go into them now. What we're seeing is that academy system already producing some excellent players and with more resources and more funding from transfers coming it, I'd expect that to keep getting better. Look at what's happened with Roadstone for Rovers, largely on the back of the Bazunu deal (and he was arguably the first to be produced by the new league of Ireland academy structure). There's obviously a lot of talent and good coaching going on. There's huge potential there to add more resources, get more contact time with players and to keep them in Ireland a bit longer, without damaging their prospects. Both clubs and the FAI could probably do more, but there's at least some evidence that it might be on the right track.

[Eirambler]

Certainly the gist of Dan McDonnell's article on the subject today is that nothing much has changed and reaching the knockouts of this tournament potentially papers over a lot of cracks.

Interesting to see potential German interest in Melia, though he'd need to wait until 16 obviously. Since Brexit Germany isn't a country that we have seen to many Irish born lads head to, but it offers potential as a league where the youth development facilities are in place and the barrier to first team minutes at most clubs isn't as high as in the Premier League or at top Serie A clubs like Inter and AC Milan. Sounds like Razi might be heading for Portugal.

[JR89]

If they haven't then FAI should be hounding UEFA about getting involved with the Elite Youth Academy Programme they've set up which helps countries set up and run their own elite youth academy. Israel, Finland, and Northern Ireland have been a part of it since 2019.

It must run for five years because the first three countries to receive funding were North Macedonia, Georgia, and Armenia in 2014.
https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/news/027d-1716f5e62797-6dfa70126237-1000--national-academies-thriving-with-uefa-support/

[ifk101]

If they haven't then FAI should be hounding UEFA about getting involved with the Elite Youth Academy Programme they've set up which helps countries set up and run their own elite youth academy. Israel, Finland, and Northern Ireland have been a part of it since 2019.

It must run for five years because the first three countries to receive funding were North Macedonia, Georgia, and Armenia in 2014.
https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/news/027d-1716f5e62797-6dfa70126237-1000--national-academies-thriving-with-uefa-support/

Can be corrected on this, but there had been long-term plans for a national residential academy at Abbotstown but these plans were abandoned (or postponed) in the past year or so in favour of a more regionalised approach through a LOI academy umbrella.

[JR89]

If they haven't then FAI should be hounding UEFA about getting involved with the Elite Youth Academy Programme they've set up which helps countries set up and run their own elite youth academy. Israel, Finland, and Northern Ireland have been a part of it since 2019.

It must run for five years because the first three countries to receive funding were North Macedonia, Georgia, and Armenia in 2014.
https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/news/027d-1716f5e62797-6dfa70126237-1000--national-academies-thriving-with-uefa-support/

Further strengthen the need for the FAI to be all over this like a fly on **** the Israel U19s that finished runners up and qualifed for their first U20s WC beat Brazil yesterday 3-2 to advance to the semi finals. Has been a decent couple of years for Israel since setting up their national academy through the Elite Youth Academy Programme.

[nigel-harps1954]

https://www.buzz.ie/sport/soccer/shamrock-rovers-planning-for-future-30196856

Good article this on the developing Irish underage structures.

[ontheotherhand]

https://www.buzz.ie/sport/soccer/shamrock-rovers-planning-for-future-30196856

Good article this on the developing Irish underage structures.

We did indeed go on to beat the Ajax u-15s. There's been some serious scalps taken in the past year or so especially.

[Stuttgart88]

https://www.buzz.ie/sport/soccer/shamrock-rovers-planning-for-future-30196856

Good article this on the developing Irish underage structures.

" Goodness Ogbonna, Ade Solanke, Mohammad Oladiti, Charles Akinrintoyo, Max Kovalevskis are some of the names to remember." I'll try but it ain't easy!

[Stuttgart88]

Article on Marc Canham's plans...

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/2023/10/11/fai-player-pathways-fifa-and-uefa-funding-crucial-to-future-success/


How will Ireland plan to develop future international stars?
Director of football Marc Canham to tackle system with December white paper

Gavin Cummiskey
Wed Oct 11 2023



In September, Andy Moran introduced himself to the wider football world. Two goals and two neat assists in the 5-2 EFL Cup defeat of Cardiff City showed Blackburn Rovers that their season-long loan from Brighton and Hove Albion is a special midfielder.
Further evidence of the 19-year-old’s quality was also evident at Turners Cross last month when the Republic of Ireland’s under-21 skipper scored from a wonderful volley against Turkey.

Moran almost slipped through the net. Brighton were hesitant to sign a skinny 16-year-old after Bray Wanderers spent two seasons cautiously exposing him to men’s football. The relationship between the Seagulls’ former academy boss John Morling and the FAI prompted the Premier League club to take a chance. Within weeks, Brighton were describing him as “the most un-Irish player” in terms of technical ability.

Coaches tell parents that every teenager’s pathway into professional football is different, yet a clear pattern exists between Ireland and England.

The gold standard is Evan Ferguson, who leaped from St Kevin’s Boys to Bohemians, making his senior debut against Chelsea at 14 before signing for Brighton and Hove Albion in January 2021. Ferguson avoided Brexit rules, that prohibit Irish talent joining a British club until they turn 18, due to his English mother.
If scoring a Premier League hat-trick at 18 is the extraordinary example, then Moran’s steady climb into the professional ranks offers a more realistic route.

The Dubliner represents the latest test case for the FAI’s player pathways. Under director of football Marc Canham, the association is keen to redesign the system with a white paper to be published in December that will outline how specific Fifa and Uefa funding is required to ensure that “high-potential future internationals” are equipped for the road ahead.

Take the example of Mason Melia. His journey began at St Josephs AFC in Sallynoggin, before a League of Ireland academy, in this case St Patrick’s Athletic, came calling. Melia, now 16, came through the system and graduated to become the youngest ever League of Ireland goalscorer at 15 years and 281 days.

But the likes of St Pat’s need more resources to assist with Melia’s development. Seemingly, help is coming from the FAI.

However, the majority of Irish boys are in the Moran mould. Not physically developed enough to play League of Ireland, but to remain at home is to deny themselves crucial coaching hours. On average, contact time for Irish under-17s is 260 minutes per week whereas a category three English club academy offers up to 720 minutes.
The FAI’s short-term aim is to equip this raw talent with enough mental resilience and technical proficiency to excel in the professional game, if and when they leave Ireland. The association are also aware that the athletic development of their players remains a major weakness.

“By the time Irish boys get to 16 they are too far behind the best players in the world,” two coaches, working within the current system, separately informed The Irish Times.mute

The FAI accept that the traditional pathway of promising young players signing for top tier English clubs has almost disappeared, mainly because the Premier League has become a destination for elite global talent.
Any teenager who is signed by a Premier League club will almost certainly go on loan to the EFL Championship, a European feeder squad or League One. After representing the Republic of Ireland under-21s, an agent tends to deliver a permanent move to a Championship team, which leads to a senior international call-up. That, for the most part, is the end of the pathway as a relentless 50-game EFL campaign commences year upon gruelling year.

For players like Troy Parrott and Jake O’Brien, the path took them from relative obscurity at Premier League clubs to the lower English divisions and now Europe, in the Dutch and French leagues, where they are hoping to revive their careers via the Josh Cullen method. Cullen did so well for Vincent Kompany at Anderlecht that last season they arrived at Burnley as a manager-midfielder package.
Listening to Canham recently, it became clear that the problems facing the FAI around player development will take 10 years to be fully addressed.

The association also accepts the flawed nature of Kenny’s current squad largely existing outside the major European leagues. Last weekend six Irishmen – Ferguson, Nathan Collins, Josh Cullen, Chiedozie Ogbene, John Egan and Matt Doherty – featured in the Premier League, 27 appeared in the EFL Championship and 20 clocked minutes in League One.

In June 2022 and 2023, Ireland were badly exposed during defeats in Armenia and Athens following the six-week gap between the English second tier ending and the international window beginning. The problem appears unsolvable now, given the average Championship salary is reportedly £22,000 (€25,500) a week, making a move to leagues in Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, France or Portugal a poor financial decision.
The Canham paper will also include longer term ideas to amalgamate domestic academies with full-time education. The alternative is Shamrock Rovers’ privately-funded academy and how their relationship with Ashfield college helped nurture a teenage Gavin Bazunu before he joined Manchester City.

“If you do look at world football over many years and look at really high-ranking teams or teams with similar-sized populations [to Ireland], there is a direct correlation between the talent development and education system in terms of achieving that success,” said Canham before pointing to the examples of Belgium and Croatia.

In 1998, the Royal Belgium FA and government created eight specialist football schools that allowed players aged between 14 and 18 to train during the normal curriculum – two-hour sessions, four mornings a week – while living at home so they can access club training in the evening. When this system produced a golden generation, including Kevin De Bruyne and Thibaut Courtois, leading clubs began to link up with other schools in their community.

The IRFU have accessed a similar model, albeit via privately-funded schools, before their own provincial structures further develop the flow of talent.

“The FAI want the clubs to develop players which is nonsense,” said Harry McCue, the recently retired FAI-ETB (Education and Training Board) co-ordinator. “The clubs do not have the time, they do not have the personnel. What we proposed [to Canham] is soccer-specific schools.”

The Canham Plan is widely anticipated.

[Stuttgart88]

Post script to same article

xx

Irish Pathways to Professional Football

Troy Parrott
Born: Dublin
Age: 21
Position: Forward
Republic of Ireland: 20 caps, four goals.
Previous clubs: Belvedere FC, Tottenham Hotspur, Millwall, Ipswich Town, MK Dons, Preston North End.
Current club: Excelsior Rotterdam (on loan from Tottenham).
Middling loan moves to MK Dons and Preston, after bad experiences at Millwall and Ipswich, led him to Excelsior Rotrerdam in the Eredivisie, where he’s scored twice off the bench in successive appearances. An understandable decision to sign for Spurs at 15 has not worked out. Under contract until 2025, his only Premier League exposure was off the bench against Burnley in 2019 and Wolves in 2020. Despite important goals against Andorra, Lithuania and Scotland, Stephen Kenny dropped him from the senior Ireland squad last month.

Jake O’Brien
Born: Cork
Age: 22
Position: Centre back
Previous clubs: Cork City, Crystal Palace, Swindon Town (loan), RWD Molenbeek, Belgium (loan).
Current club: Olympique Lyonnais.
Eleven caps for Jim Crawford’s Irish under-21s alongside full internationals Aaron Connolly, Ferguson and Will Smallbone have yet to translate into regular club minutes. Having helped Molenbeek gain promotion to the top tier of Belgium football, he earned a move to France after his 2021/22 loan season at Swindon in League Two fell short of convincing Crystal Palace to extend his contract. Also played League of Ireland for Cork City in 2020. Despite Lyon’s winless start to Ligue 1, when the Youghal defender was benched behind three full internationals, Duje Caleta-Car (Croatia), Sinaly Diomandé (Ivory Coast) and Clinton Mata (Angola), his debut finally arrived recently in a 2-0 loss to Stade Reims.

Andy Moran
Andy Moran: the highly-rated Brighton midfielder has begun to catch the eye during his current loan deal at Blackburn Rovers, scoring twice against Cardiff City in the EFL Cup. Photograph: Dave Howarth/CameraSport via Getty Images
Born: Dublin
Age: 19
Position: Midfield
Previous clubs: Knocklyon United, St Josephs AFC, Bray Wanderers, Brighton and Hove Albion.
Current club: Blackburn Rovers (on loan from Brighton).
Coming of age at Ewood Park under Jon Dahl Tomasson. After a superb goal for the Ireland 21s against Turkey, Moran recently caught fire in the EFL Cup, scoring twice and creating two goals in the 5-2 defeat of Cardiff. Made his Premier League debut for Brighton against Everton in January 2023 before securing the loan to Blackburn where he is operating beside fellow Ireland-qualified attacking midfielder Sammie Szmodics.

Mason Melia
Born: Wicklow
Age: 16
Position: Forward
Previous clubs: Newtown Juniors, St Josephs AFC, Bray Wanderers.
Current club: St Patrick’s Athletic.
An early developer, 113 minutes off the bench across seven League of Ireland games this season, scoring twice and becoming the second youngest player to feature on the domestic front, behind a 14-year-old Evan Ferguson, so comparisons to the Brighton striker are inevitable. St Pat’s might get a second season from him or a conglomerate like City Football Group could swoop in and farm him out to one of their European clubs. Manchester City’s holding company also own Girona in La Liga, Lommel SK in Belgium’s second tier, ES Troyes AC in the French second division and Palermo of Serie B.

[tetsujin1979]

European Club Association(ECA) published a study on international migration of players in Europe
Ireland had the second highest amount of players transferred abroad as minors(219), just behind France(246), with England being the most common destination
Full report linked here: https://www.ecaeurope.com/news-media-releases/eca-publishes-research-study-on-the-international-migration-of-youth-players-in-europe/

[CraftyToePoke]

Gavin Bazunu, James McClean and Seamus Coleman are set to fund a new Scholarship Initiative for the League of Ireland

This fantastic initiative and gesture will see one boy & one girl put through education whilst full-time at a LOI club as a pilot.

https://x.com/IrelandFootball/status/1714325398199132526?s=20

[SkStu]

First poets-in-residence, then climate officers but full time pilots at a LOI club? I’ve heard it all.

[elatedscum]

I was watching the long highlights of Uruguay v Brazil there and Uruguay are something to behold (Darwin Nunez was incredible). I know Croatia and Belgium are rightly held up as examples of what we could do - but I’d love us to look to Uruguay to see what we could learn. Population of 3.4m and they keep producing generations of excellent footballers. The one with Suarez and Cavani and Godin has past - but look at the new crop that have come through (age 25 and under):

Federico Valverde, Real Madrid, 25
Mathias Olivera, Napoli, 25
Darwin Nunez, Liverpool, 24
Ronald Araújo, Barcelona, 24
Manuel Ugarte, PSG, 22
Facundo Pellistri, United, 21

It’s not even one type of player that they produce or one build of player. You’ve got big centre halves, quick skilful wingers, do it all midfielders, every kind of striker imaginable.

Maybe there’s a point where teams start to look at you differently if you’re from a certain country that has a disproportionate rate of developing players. Like a high profile club might have been more likely to take a chance on Omobamidele if he were Uruguayan rather than irish.

Anyway… they’re doing something right in development of footballers, however they get there.

Meanwhile, at senior level, they’ve found $4m a year to pay Bielsa to manage them (about 7 times the salary of Kenny).

[seanfhear]

^ Perhaps success breeding success.

Also ~ I am going to take a guess that ~ Soccer is by far and away the biggest sport played in Uruguay.

[Stuttgart88]

And isn't there some mad stat that of something like 11 teams in their professional top flight, 10 are from Montevideo?

[tetsujin1979]

And isn't there some mad stat that of something like 11 teams in their professional top flight, 10 are from Montevideo?
It's 12 clubs of 16, according to Wikipedia!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Uruguayan_Primera_Divisi%C3%B3n_season#Stadiu ms_and_locations

[seanfhear]

Montevideo played the football stars ! ! !

[EalingGreen]

It's 12 clubs of 16, according to Wikipedia!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Uruguayan_Primera_Divisi%C3%B3n_season#Stadiu ms_and_locationsUruguay has a population of 3.4m. And according to this list*, 1.3m of them live in Montevideo.

While the next most populous city is Salto - 100k, and the 10th most is Artigas, with 42k:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/cities/uruguay

* - Other sources say 1.75m - maybe they mean the greater metropolitan area?

[tetsujin1979]

A new pathway plan for football in Ireland has been announced
1759895248824574263
The plan itself can be downloaded here
https://d2w4iw8gs9jo14.cloudfront.net/9917/0842/4818/240214_FAI_FPP_2024_LR.pdf

[passinginterest]

The plan looks pretty promising. It will be hard to implement but good to see the effort to align the structures and have a joined up system. I'm glad I filled in the survey because it feels like they have listened to the feedback. It's all well and good having nice plans of paper though. Actually getting the leagues and particularly the schoolboy leagues on board will take some doing. I'm hoping by all the talks of the FAI club standards and league standards that will be a way of ensuring that funding only goes towards clubs that align to the plan and if you want to stay outside then you can't get funded/registered/involved in official leagues etc.

[ltfc_2004]

A new pathway plan for football in Ireland has been announced
1759895248824574263
The plan itself can be downloaded here
https://d2w4iw8gs9jo14.cloudfront.net/9917/0842/4818/240214_FAI_FPP_2024_LR.pdf



Thanks that was an interesting read. There really needs to be huge investment in uefa qualified coaches to ensure the best players get effective coaching and training.

I enjoyed seeing 5-11 year olds described as getting to just enjoy the game. I’ve seen a few clubs with u-8/10’s doing tactics and win at all costs. One thing I do like about GAA is the go games initiative. My local GAA club here in Meath has 90 4 years in an old weather pitch cage from March to October ! It’s an impressive site each Sunday morning.