Debate - Future of Youth Development in Irish Football

[Razors left peg]

The plan looks pretty promising. It will be hard to implement but good to see the effort to align the structures and have a joined up system. I'm glad I filled in the survey because it feels like they have listened to the feedback. It's all well and good having nice plans of paper though. Actually getting the leagues and particularly the schoolboy leagues on board will take some doing. I'm hoping by all the talks of the FAI club standards and league standards that will be a way of ensuring that funding only goes towards clubs that align to the plan and if you want to stay outside then you can't get funded/registered/involved in official leagues etc.

As you saying trying to get everyone to agree to anything is the difficulty. There is very little joined up thinking within football in the country right now so attempts to address that need to be applauded, but its going to be an uphill battle.

Just as an example of different organizations within Irish football pulling in different directions is in Galway. In the run up to the season opener for Galway Utd against Pats last week the Galway FA held 7 games in 10 days on the pitch in Terryland in brutal weather. By the time the Pats game came around the pitch was a mess and the weather on the night made it even worse. That sort of crap should not happen

[Stuttgart88]

Was anyone aware of this? I wasn't!

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/2024/07/22/how-atletico-madrid-saw-a-gap-in-the-market-and-set-up-an-academy-in-ireland/

How Atlético Madrid saw a ‘gap in the market’ and set up an academy in Ireland

Spanish giants are looking to unearth gifted young Irish footballers after Brexit closed off traditional pathway to British clubs

Richard Fitzpatrick

The Spanish football gospel has spread to Ireland. Last year, Atlético Madrid, one of Spain’s aristocrats in club football, established a beachhead in the country, setting up an official academy in Dublin. Formally entitled Atlético de Madrid Academy Dublin, it’s the club’s fifth across the world, but its first in Europe. It’s inspired by Atlético’s legendary success and a market opportunity to unearth gifted young Irish footballers. In the last decade, Atlético have won two La Liga titles and reached two Champions League finals. Their squad is stocked with five World Cup winners – including Antoine Griezmann, Rodrigo De Paul and Nahuel Molina – and Álvaro Morata, Spain’s winning Euro 2024 captain (who will join AC Milan later in the summer). Its most iconic player, Fernando Torres, scored Spain’s winner against Germany in the Euro 2008 final.

Atlético have loaned a full-time coach to Atlético Academy Dublin. All their academy coaches are trained by the Madrid-based club so players learn how to play the Atlético way. Players are also schooled in Atlético’s values, including teamwork, discipline and respect towards referees, guidelines which extend to onlooking parents, who are only permitted to voice encouragement during matches.
Already almost 200 boys and girls have joined the academy. At the moment, Atlético’s academy players train at Abbotstown and Phoenix Park, but this is a temporary arrangement. The academy is looking for a site around Dublin’s hinterland to establish a permanent base with room to grow the academy.

“The lack of appropriate facilities, particularly during winter months, is a significant issue. There has been a comprehensive and enduring failure to provide enough proper facilities for children who want to play soccer in Ireland. We lag so far behind other footballing nations,” says Murrough McMahon, a lawyer and spokesperson for the academy. As the Atlético academy expands, in addition to having underage teams competing in the Dublin & District Schoolboys’/Girls’ League, its ambition is to have elite teams competing in the League of Ireland. The academy also runs regular football clinics as well as Easter and summer camps and is rolling out coaching clinics to schools.

“It’s an untapped market here in Ireland for a club like Atlético Madrid,” says McMahon. “We’ve two million people in the Greater Dublin Area. According to the Children’s Sport Participation and Physical Study 2022, soccer is the most popular community sport for boys in both primary (56 per cent) and post-primary schools (41 per cent). Participation of girls in soccer has also recently exploded due to the popularity and success of the senior women’s international team, which is fantastic to see, but it has exacerbated the demand for proper facilities. “The talent is here, but for years no European club would touch Ireland. What happened is that from 15 or 16, kids would go to academies in England, and they’d be scouted there if they were any good by European clubs. Ireland was never perceived as a territory worth exploring from a scouting perspective.”

Dubliner Johnny Carey, who captained Manchester United to a famous FA Cup win in 1948, was lured to Old Trafford as a teenager in the 1930s. After the second World War, talented youths like Liam Whelan, John Giles and Eamon Dunphy followed in his path. Later, other English clubs got in on the act. Liam Brady, for example, joined Arsenal in 1971 as a 15-year-old. Robbie Keane was snapped up by Wolves in 1996 aged 15. Evan Ferguson moved to Brighton as a 16-year-old. None of those deals could happen today. “There is a gap in the market,” says McMahon. “There has been an unintended consequence to Brexit. It has impacted young Irish players going to the UK. Players in the EU can no longer transfer to England until they’re 18, but Irish players – who are, of course, in the European Union – can still move to European clubs at 16.

“Ireland, though, isn’t on the radar of other European clubs. A few years ago, for example, Irish academy coaches went out to Juventus, and a Juventus executive told them they never had anyone scout in Ireland. The furthest they got to was England because they thought all the promising Irish players would be playing in England. They only ever went to England to scout. That’s changed now because of Brexit.”
From January 2021, according to Brexit legislation, English football clubs could no longer sign under-18 footballers from overseas. The law was designed to limit foreign players joining English clubs. It led to a flurry of transfer activity the year beforehand, as Premier League clubs were conscious that a drawbridge was about to be pulled up.

Manchester United, for instance, swooped for six overseas players aged 16 to 18 in the summer of 2020; the club admitted upcoming Brexit regulations informed its strategy. One of those teenage players was Alejandro Garnacho, who they prized away from Atlético. Aston Villa was another Premier League club which purposefully scouted players aged 16. It signed St Patrick’s Athletic defender Aaron O’Reilly in the summer of 2020 a few days after his 16th birthday. The profile of Ireland’s under-17 squad is changing dramatically as a result. Last year, for example, only two of the 20 footballers in the Irish squad to play in the European Under-17 Championship finals in Hungary were attached to English clubs: Hull City’s Stanley Ashbee, whose Irish ancestors come from Co Limerick, and Crystal Palace’s Jake Grante, whose relatives hail from Kilkee, Co Clare. The other 18 footballers played with Irish clubs.
This season a trend is developing. Two players from the Ireland squad who played European Under-17 Championship qualifiers in March are signed with clubs in Europe: Matthew Moore at Hoffenheim in Germany and Aarón Ochoa at Malaga in Spain. Most recently, Shelbourne defender Finn Sherlock, who turned 16 in July, also joined Hoffenheim.

Atlético has an interesting historical connection with Ireland: the first stadium it owned, which it used between 1912 until 1923, was Campo de O’Donnell (O’Donnell Stadium). The stadium hosted Spain’s first international football match played in Madrid, a 3-1 victory over Portugal in 1921. It was located close to Retiro park in the heart of Madrid on O’Donnell Street, which takes its name from Leopoldo O’Donnell, a notable military general and politician in Spain during the nineteenth century of Irish origin. Now it looks like more young Irish immigrants – some of the country’s most talented footballers – might be following in the footsteps of the O’Donnell family south towards Madrid. “When we get set up with our own ground, any budding footballer in Ireland will be dying to get into our academy,” says McMahon, “because of the prospect that if we see someone interesting, we’ll be able to get them straight over to Atlético for a trial.”

Why is Spanish football coaching so good?
It feels sometimes like Spain is ground zero when it comes to football. A thrilling Spain team just became the first country to win the European Championship four times. A couple of months ago, Real Madrid won its 15th European Cup, an extraordinary dominance in the club game. (AC Milan is next on the list with seven titles.) The top three coaches in the English Premier League come from Spain: Manchester City’s Pep Guardiola, Arsenal’s Mikel Arteta and Unai Emery at Aston Villa.
Xabi Alonso graduated with his Uefa coaching licence in 2019 (in a class that included Xavi Hernández and Raúl, who are both carving significant coaching careers). Alonso devised a deft trajectory for his coaching career, beginning at Real Madrid’s youth academy, then moving on to to coach Real Sociedad’s reserve team before conquering Germany with Bayer Leverkusen, the only champions in Bundesliga history to go undefeated all season domestically.

There is a reason why Spain is so good at nurturing intelligent football coaches. It invests in coaching. In 2017, for example, 15,459 coaches in Spain held Uefa’s two top coaching qualifications, compared with only 2,083 coaches in England. Ireland has only 10 full-time staff spread across 24 academies. In contrast, Croatia with a similar sized population has 190 full-time academy staff across 10 clubs. The strategy has paid dividends for Spain. In addition to its Euro 2024 success, it’s the only footballing nation to win three major international tournaments consecutively: Euro 2008, World Cup 2010 and Euro 2012. These successes were built on coaching excellence at underage level. Spain, for example, has won the European Under-17 Championship nine times since its inauguration in 1980, more than any other country.

[Acornvilla]

I look forward to seeing Club Atlético de Abbotstown in the LOI

[The Fly]

Was anyone aware of this? I wasn't!

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/2024/07/22/how-atletico-madrid-saw-a-gap-in-the-market-and-set-up-an-academy-in-ireland/

Nope, but it's great to see.

[Buckett]

I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, highly qualified coaches and new facilities should be welcomed. On the other, I think Irish football should be ashamed of itself. The lack of investment in coaching and facilities is pathetic.
Anyone here involved in the Dublin District Schooolboys/girls league? What do ye think of this club that's probably going to dominate the leagues?

[CSAD]

I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, highly qualified coaches and new facilities should be welcomed. On the other, I think Irish football should be ashamed of itself. The lack of investment in coaching and facilities is pathetic.
Anyone here involved in the Dublin District Schooolboys/girls league? What do ye think of this club that's probably going to dominate the leagues?


If this is the case why hasn't this been reflected in Ireland's underage results? I hear all the moaning and whinging all the time and yet for whatever reason the underage teams still seem to be functioning.

[Buckett]

The WU19's lost all three group games at the Euros last week. The underage teams are functioning, but surely we could aim a bit higher.

[CSAD]

The WU19's lost all three group games at the Euros last week. The underage teams are functioning, but surely we could aim a bit higher.

Did they lose all 3?


I would just like some answers, why are we only hearing doom and gloom in this regard and yet it's not reflected in the underage sides?

[Buckett]

Well, feel free to put a positive spin on underage football and our lack of qualified coaches and our dearth of facilities and our lack of employment opportunities for coaches

[JR89]

Did they lose all 3?


I would just like some answers, why are we only hearing doom and gloom in this regard and yet it's not reflected in the underage sides?

No they drew with Spain in the first game.

[CSAD]

Well, feel free to put a positive spin on underage football and our lack of qualified coaches and our dearth of facilities and our lack of employment opportunities for coaches

I'm just presenting the facts, all I hear is this sort of stuff and yet the results of our underage sides paints a different picture.

It's a simple question, why is the results presenting us a different picture from what you're suggesting is the case?

[Buckett]

What results are you talking about?

[CSAD]

What results are you talking about?

All our underage results over the last 6-7 years? Our u17,u19,u21 are in pot 1 at u17,u19 and pot 2 at u21 based on 4 campaigns for the u17/u19s and 3 campaigns for the u21s, why is that the case if things are such a disaster at development level for Ireland, if it was wouldnt this be reflected in the underage sides results which is for the most part a direct reflection of the work countries are doing at underage level.

[Exgrad]

The WU19's lost all three group games at the Euros last week. The underage teams are functioning, but surely we could aim a bit higher.

They drew with Spain and lost narrowly to Germany and The Netherlands. They were one of 8 teams to qualify for the tournament. If all our teams were functioning at that sort of level we'd be happy enough.

[Exgrad]

I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, highly qualified coaches and new facilities should be welcomed. On the other, I think Irish football should be ashamed of itself. The lack of investment in coaching and facilities is pathetic.
Anyone here involved in the Dublin District Schooolboys/girls league? What do ye think of this club that's probably going to dominate the leagues?

What facitilies? They play out of the phoenix park. Seem to be a very low key operation for a european giant. They have teams down the leagues in the DDSL at moment playing under the name FC Eagles. I'd take that article with a huge pinch of salt. How do they go about playing in the national league? Unless they are planning on buying a club here.

[Buckett]

What facitilies? They play out of the phoenix park. Seem to be a very low key operation for a european giant. They have teams down the leagues in the DDSL at moment playing under the name FC Eagles. I'd take that article with a huge pinch of salt. How do they go about playing in the national league? Unless they are planning on buying a club here.

The academy is looking for a site around Dublin’s hinterland to establish a permanent base with room to grow the academy.

[Exgrad]

ok lets see how that goes, would require a v significatn investment, unless theyre just looking to rent somewhere else.

[nigel-harps1954]

The academy is looking for a site around Dublin’s hinterland to establish a permanent base with room to grow the academy.

What exactly are they going to do with this academy? What competitive football will the players get? They can't just jump into the League of Ireland without intentions of a senior team too, and where are they going to get the money to keep a senior team going?

Irish underage football is in a good place in terms of level of coaching, and the standard of play. It's solely infrastructure and finances that it needs a health kick.

[Stuttgart88]

Irish underage football is in a good place in terms of level of coaching, and the standard of play. It's solely infrastructure and finances that it needs a health kick.I think we do well with what we have but this extract from the article above (widely known anyway) is telling:

There is a reason why Spain is so good at nurturing intelligent football coaches. It invests in coaching. In 2017, for example, 15,459 coaches in Spain held Uefa’s two top coaching qualifications, compared with only 2,083 coaches in England. Ireland has only 10 full-time staff spread across 24 academies. In contrast, Croatia with a similar sized population has 190 full-time academy staff across 10 clubs.

The galling thing is that there are good quality jobs to be had in football but the concept of a football industry here is alien. And in what universe is celebrating 16 year olds going to Germany to learn a trade a good thing when the Irish state creams in €80 billion in tax revenues a year? It's a relatively good thing but only in the sense that it's arguably a better place to go than some British academies and a step up from even the best LOI academies.

[CSAD]

I think we do well with what we have but this extract from the article above (widely known anyway) is telling:

There is a reason why Spain is so good at nurturing intelligent football coaches. It invests in coaching. In 2017, for example, 15,459 coaches in Spain held Uefa’s two top coaching qualifications, compared with only 2,083 coaches in England. Ireland has only 10 full-time staff spread across 24 academies. In contrast, Croatia with a similar sized population has 190 full-time academy staff across 10 clubs.

The galling thing is that there are good quality jobs to be had in football but the concept of a football industry here is alien. And in what universe is celebrating 16 year olds going to Germany to learn a trade a good thing when the Irish state creams in €80 billion in tax revenues a year? It's a relatively good thing but only in the sense that it's arguably a better place to go than some British academies and a step up from even the best LOI academies.

This might be a hard concept for many to accept, but in the vast majority of countries the very best players will move abroad at 16/17 as even if we excelled and had a football industry here, the reality is the best players are going to have a better time developing in a major European nation such as Germany or England and its not just the case for Irish players, its the case for Scottish players, Danish players, Swedish players, Greek players etc and its reflected when you look at the background of players from these countries. For example at Euro 2020 the Danish side that got to the SF of the Euro's the vast majority of those players left Denmark at 16/17 years old, obviously the odd exception will exist but the majority left at an age most Irish players leave.

I also find the coaching stat a tad misleading as you'll find in most countries that the very best young talents in each squad will likely be training with the first team anyway so this sort of stat is unlikely to play as much of a role, where this stat might bite us in the ass is for the late developers. It wont affect someone like Mason Melia as he trains with the first side regularly but we might miss out on players Seamus Coleman who obviously didnt kick on until he was older.

I think this is all a well known fact and I feel the media's attempt to pull the wool over people's eyes and deceive them in order to make a point is not a good look and if and when the consistency Ireland have shown at underage level starts to bare fruit at senior level these media outlets will have alot of explaining to do.

[Stuttgart88]

For example at Euro 2020 the Danish side that got to the SF of the Euro's the vast majority of those players left Denmark at 16/17 years old, obviously the odd exception will exist but the majority left at an age most Irish players leave.
Is that true?

Regardless, I think it's generally accepted that lack of coaching resources and lack of quality minutes on the pitch at underage levels reduces the chances of further achievement. I've always looked at the relative competitiveness of our underage teams as a sign we're doing something right but we've been waiting a long time for this to translate into being more competitive at senior level. Obviously having good pathways into senior football is an issue but it's all part of a big systemic weakness imho.

[CSAD]

Is that true?

Regardless, I think it's generally accepted that lack of coaching resources and lack of quality minutes on the pitch at underage levels reduces the chances of further achievement. I've always looked at the relative competitiveness of our underage teams as a sign we're doing something right but we've been waiting a long time for this to translate into being more competitive at senior level. Obviously having good pathways into senior football is an issue but it's all part of a big systemic weakness imho.


It is, what stood out to me was the career decision they made, going to places they would develop as opposed to going down the same route every time.

Schmichael - left at 16
Christiansen - left at 16
Andersen - Left at 17
Eriksen - left at 16
Hjorbjerg - left at 17
Dolberg - left at 17
etc

You see that is said and yet that hasn't been reflected at underage level, you'd think there of all places it would be reflected and Irish sides would be destroyed but that doesnt seem to happen. This is why I am critical of the media because if this WAS happening, we'd never hear the end of it. The fact they will never mention the underage results is because its a direct contradiction to the narrative they are trying to create and instead are just trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes as most people wont do research on the topic and just take what the media say at face value, its a short term gain for the media but it will have long term ramifications as once the underage results eventually start to result in Ireland improving as a NT they'll have to explain why Ireland have improved if things are so bad at grassroots level...they wont have a leg to stand on and ill be laughing my ass off!


The issue progress has been slow because most of our young players have had to learn on the job as we are paying the price for nothing coming through from 1993-1997 which had led to progress being slower than we would hope. Once our young players get into the 24-28 bracket I think progress will start to become a lot quicker I suspect.

But on paper the progress is definetly there, in the last 4 years the value of the Irish squad has increased by over 100m euro and I would suspect that will only continue to grow especially when you look at the age profile of the squad.

[Stuttgart88]

So, 10 full time academy coaches is enough?!

[CSAD]

So, 10 full time academy coaches is enough?!

It's not enough. What I'm saying is suggesting that this is the reason Ireland have been failing is just blatantly lying to people. It a countries success was down to the amount of full time comes at underage level the likes of Estonia, Latvia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan would have a better national side than Belgium...we all know this is not true of course!


The reality is like I said in the previous post the main people having a low number of academy coaches will affect is the late bloomers as they likely wont be training with the first team regularly as a 16-17 year old unless they are at a very small team in the first division. The very best I dont see it affecting as A. They'll likely leave at 16 anyway like in most countries or B. Train with the first team regularly and therefore wont be affected by the lack of full time academy coaches.

I'm not down playing the amount of full time coaches we have and say it isnt an issue, it is, but I think the media are exadurating how much of a role its actually playing with youth development as see by Ireland's underage results.

[Stuttgart88]

What would the media have to gain by drawing unfavourable comparisons to similar sized countries if they didn't feel it's a telling contributor?

[pineapple stu]

This might be a hard concept for many to accept, but in the vast majority of countries the very best players will move abroad at 16/17 as even if we excelled and had a football industry here, the reality is the best players are going to have a better time developing in a major European nation such as Germany or England and its not just the case for Irish players, its the case for Scottish players, Danish players, Swedish players, Greek players etc and its reflected when you look at the background of players from these countries. For example at Euro 2020 the Danish side that got to the SF of the Euro's the vast majority of those players left Denmark at 16/17 years old, obviously the odd exception will exist but the majority left at an age most Irish players leave.


Is that true?
It actually isn't.

Of Denmark's Euro 2020 squad (the one that reached the semis) you had -

2 players leave Denmark at 15 (one, Kasper Schmeichel, was an unusual case in that he was joining the same club his dad had just joined)
2 leave at 16
4 leave at 17
1 leave at 18
4 leave at 19
2 leave at 20
4 leave at 22
3 leave at 23
2 leave at 24
2 leave at 25

Of those, one of the 17-year-olds and all the players aged 18 and over and played senior football with their clubs in Denmark, so I think we can take it that they had at that stage graduated beyond academy status.

CSAD's list, which ended "etc" was in fact almost exhaustive - just missing Vestergaard and Boilesen.

[CSAD]

It actually isn't.

Of Denmark's Euro 2020 squad (the one that reached the semis) you had -

2 players leave Denmark at 15 (one, Kasper Schmeichel, was an unusual case in that he was joining the same club his dad had just joined)
2 leave at 16
4 leave at 17
1 leave at 18
4 leave at 19
2 leave at 20
4 leave at 22
3 leave at 23
2 leave at 24
2 leave at 25

Of those, one of the 17-year-olds and all the players aged 18 and over and played senior football with their clubs in Denmark, so I think we can take it that they had at that stage graduated beyond academy status.

CSAD's list, which ended "etc" was in fact almost exhaustive - just missing Vestergaard and Boilesen.

What my list highlight was largely the key players of the squad. What that list just does it confirm what I was trying to get across, that most of the best players in each country will leave at 16/17. They had a lot of journeymen who stayed beyond these ages but their progress probably show's that maybe that wasn't the right decision.

[CSAD]

What would the media have to gain by drawing unfavourable comparisons to similar sized countries if they didn't feel it's a telling contributor?

What they'd have to gain is clicks, its so lacking in balance and its just designed to influence the people who aren't very well informed on the topic...ive had the pleasure of speaking to many on social media and I almost feel sorry for them as they are so ill informed on the topic they are discussing and it just ends with them blocking or ghosting you when it becomes clear to them they arent very well informed on the topic and they are talking to someone who is.

[pineapple stu]

What my list highlight was largely the key players of the squad. What that list just does it confirm what I was trying to get across, that most of the best players in each country will leave at 16/17. They had a lot of journeymen who stayed beyond these ages but their progress probably show's that maybe that wasn't the right decision.
I think this is very revisionist in that it's clearly not what you said you were showing. And your revised case - well, pretty much anyone good enough to be part of a squad getting to the Euro semi-finals is going to be in the category of "best players in the country" at the age of 16/17 - yet most of those didn't leave. Your conclusion at the end is lacking any sort of substance at all, and the case of Nicolai Boilesen even argues against it, in that he moved to Ajax at age 17 there, never really made it, and returned to Copenhagen at 24, where he's been a regular since. Maybe he'd have been better staying at home longer?

I did a study on the same data for Euro 2016 and again, the vast majority of players stayed at home until they were 21/22 - Ireland (and the North) were huge outliers in that regard. There may have been a bit of a change since, but not as big as you note, and there's also a shown correlation between players leaving their home country too early and lesser career outcomes; I've linked it in this thread before.

[Stuttgart88]

What my list highlight was largely the key players of the squad. What that list just does it confirm what I was trying to get across, that most of the best players in each country will leave at 16/17. They had a lot of journeymen who stayed beyond these ages but their progress probably show's that maybe that wasn't the right decision.I wish our journey men would get us to extra time in a Euros semi :)

[CSAD]

I think this is very revisionist in that it's clearly not what you said you were showing. And your revised case - well, pretty much anyone good enough to be part of a squad getting to the Euro semi-finals is going to be in the category of "best players in the country" at the age of 16/17 - yet most of those didn't leave. Your conclusion at the end is lacking any sort of substance at all, and the case of Nicolai Boilesen even argues against it, in that he moved to Ajax at age 17 there, never really made it, and returned to Copenhagen at 24, where he's been a regular since. Maybe he'd have been better staying at home longer?

I did a study on the same data for Euro 2016 and again, the vast majority of players stayed at home until they were 21/22 - Ireland (and the North) were huge outliers in that regard. There may have been a bit of a change since, but not as big as you note, and there's also a shown correlation between players leaving their home country too early and lesser career outcomes; I've linked it in this thread before.

I mean if you want to use journeymen to prove you're point then fine, what I was showing is the best players for Denmark in that team. You want to try pull the wool over peoples eyes and think because Denmark had a bunch of players who left after 19 that it proves against my point even though a good chunk of players in this category didnt actually play much of a roll in the squad.

My conclusion has plenty of substance actually, my conclusion indicates that the best players tend to leave their country for bigger countries when they turn 16/17 and everything ive suggested proves this. Where's the evidence to suggest he'd be better saying at home, the evidence ive shown you suggests pretty much all of Denmark's best players did actually leave at that age.

What is this study?

Well that study I can already tell you is bogus, you look at most countries across Europe and you'll find their top players will leave at 16/17 years old.

[CraftyToePoke]

Didn't the Croatian 2016/18 era side who would be a direct population resource comparison, all develop domestically ? Until their early 20s. I'm sure I remember an article on that around that time.

[CSAD]

I wish our journey men would get us to extra time in a Euros semi :)

Those journeymen wouldn't have got that far without the list of players I provided, which was my overall point. The very best players in most squads leave for bigger nations when they are 16/17 and the point I was trying to make is this is what happened with Denmark in 2021 just like in most countries, they had a bunch of journeymen who stayed a little longer but pretty much all of their top players left at 16/17, the only exception really was Delaney but he was a real late bloomer leaving when he was 25/26.

[CSAD]

Didn't the Croatian 2016/18 era side who would be a direct population resource comparison, all develop domestically ? Until their early 20s. I'm sure I remember an article on that around that time.

Croatia are an interesting one as they are a good example of how have 1 really strong academy can really make a difference, if I'm not mistaken pretty much all of their players came through the Dynamo Zagreb academy or qualified via a parent/grandparent.

[pineapple stu]

Didn't the Croatian 2016/18 era side who would be a direct population resource comparison, all develop domestically ? Until their early 20s. I'm sure I remember an article on that around that time.
Yep (if we could Rakitic, who's Swiss, as developing in Switzerland, which he did)

Of their 2018 World Cup squad -

3 left home at 17 (including Perisic, the only one not to play domestically)
1 at 18
4 at 19
5 at 21
2 at 22
2 at 23
1 at 24
2 at 26
1 at 27
2 at 28

[CraftyToePoke]

Yep (if we could Rakitic, who's Swiss, as developing in Switzerland, which he did)

Of their 2018 World Cup squad -

3 left home at 17 (including Perisic, the only one not to play domestically)
1 at 18
4 at 19
5 at 21
2 at 22
2 at 23
1 at 24
2 at 26
1 at 27
2 at 28

& the Uruguayan & Danish comparisons ?
Going for the comparable population angle again & bigger better neighbouring leagues looking to shop in theirs.

[CSAD]

Yep (if we could Rakitic, who's Swiss, as developing in Switzerland, which he did)

Of their 2018 World Cup squad -

3 left home at 17 (including Perisic, the only one not to play domestically)
1 at 18
4 at 19
5 at 21
2 at 22
2 at 23
1 at 24
2 at 26
1 at 27
2 at 28


It needs to be mentioned that until 2013 Croatia wasnt in the EU so their players couldn't leave Croatia until they were 18.

[pineapple stu]

& the Uruguayan & Danish comparisons ?
Going for the comparable population angle again & bigger better neighbouring leagues looking to shop in theirs.
Well you have the Danish stats above. For Uruguay, of their 2018 World Cup squad (which lost to France in the quarters) -

1 left at 16 (Lucas Torreira, the only player not to play domestically first)
2 at 18
4 at 19
7 at 20
5 at 21
1 at 23
1 at 25
1 at 26
1 at 28

So very similar again.


It needs to be mentioned that until 2013 Croatia wasnt in the EU so their players couldn't leave Croatia until they were 18.
The fact that Croatia team still reached the World Cup final (and the 2022 semis) kinda blows out of the water your suggestion that Denmark suffered from "a lot of journeymen who stayed beyond these ages [16/17] but their progress probably show's that maybe that wasn't the right decision."

[CraftyToePoke]

So comparable nations in population who achieve on levels we can these days only dream of are being better served by most of their lads being home schooled until at an age they're ready to leave, is that fair ?

Same as most of us weren't ready to leave Ireland at 16 but by 22 a lot of us had chosen to, emphasis on chosen there & the importance of both options being credible and available.

CSAD, there isn't a definitive conclusion to be drawn here, evidence doesn't support it. In fact the numbers lean heavily against your argument.

[elatedscum]

All our underage results over the last 6-7 years? Our u17,u19,u21 are in pot 1 at u17,u19 and pot 2 at u21 based on 4 campaigns for the u17/u19s and 3 campaigns for the u21s, why is that the case if things are such a disaster at development level for Ireland, if it was wouldnt this be reflected in the underage sides results which is for the most part a direct reflection of the work countries are doing at underage level.

Because Ruud Dokter was actually pretty competent and did good work - and in some respects we've developed beyond what we should have given the resources at our disposal. Stuff like the emerging talent program, the national underage leagues - they're a huge improvement on what was there for kids coming from a decade previous to it, but it's still working with a fraction of the resources that we should have and players have a fraction of the number of hours training that kids in similar age groups have. also players just sometimes come through despite everything in front of them, sometimes they're just born to play football.

[CSAD]

So comparable nations in population who achieve on levels we can these days only dream of are being better served by most of their lads being home schooled until at an age they're ready to leave, is that fair ?

Same as most of us weren't ready to leave Ireland at 16 but by 22 a lot of us had chosen to, emphasis on chosen there & the importance of both options being credible and available.

CSAD, there isn't a definitive conclusion to be drawn here, evidence doesn't support it. In fact the numbers lean heavily against your argument.

Um no because the stats I showed clearly indicated the pretty much the entire spine of the Danish side that got to the SF of the Euros was with players that left when they were 16/17. Which is proven when you look at the side Denmark selected for their matches at Euro 2021.

No the evidence actually leans heavily towards my argument, what posters like Pineapple are trying to do is pull the wool over you're eyes and twist reality in an efforts to suit their narrative.

I've already listed the key players in the spine of that Danish side and the ages which they left Denmark and its proven by simply looking at their wikipedia pages, if you want to believe that because they had a bunch of squad players that stayed in Denmark until after they were in their 20s and that's the way to go then you can choose to believe that but the only person you are fooling is yourself.

[CSAD]

Well you have the Danish stats above. For Uruguay, of their 2018 World Cup squad (which lost to France in the quarters) -

1 left at 16 (Lucas Torreira, the only player not to play domestically first)
2 at 18
4 at 19
7 at 20
5 at 21
1 at 23
1 at 25
1 at 26
1 at 28

So very similar again.


The fact that Croatia team still reached the World Cup final (and the 2022 semis) kinda blows out of the water your suggestion that Denmark suffered from "a lot of journeymen who stayed beyond these ages [16/17] but their progress probably show's that maybe that wasn't the right decision."

It doesnt blow any argument out of the water, you're comparing two completely different nations!

[elatedscum]

FWIW I looked at our current extended squad, the guys who would basically generally be in a squad when fit and excluded the 9 lads who grew up in England or Scotland.

15 (2) Collins, Parrott
16 (13) everyone else
17 (1) Travers
18 (3) Doherty, Manning, Browne
19 (1) O’Brien
20 (2) Ogbene, Coleman
23 (2) Scales, McGrath

Everyone else: Bazunu, Kelleher, O'Shea, Omobamidele, Duffy, Egan, Brady, Hendrick, Molumby, Knight, Ebosele, Ferguson, Idah

[CraftyToePoke]

No the evidence actually leans heavily towards my argument, what posters like Pineapple are trying to do is pull the wool over you're eyes and twist reality in an efforts to suit their narrative.

In fact I knew Pineappler wouldn't be able to resist Googling the relevant number I'd only half remembered & was too lazy to do it myself. But wool over my eyes ... very good. Carry on.

Lesser aspects of your personality starting to come through in your use of vocabulary there, when challenged also.

You've proven nothing.

[CSAD]

Because Ruud Dokter was actually pretty competent and did good work - and in some respects we've developed beyond what we should have given the resources at our disposal. Stuff like the emerging talent program, the national underage leagues - they're a huge improvement on what was there for kids coming from a decade previous to it, but it's still working with a fraction of the resources that we should have and players have a fraction of the number of hours training that kids in similar age groups have. also players just sometimes come through despite everything in front of them, sometimes they're just born to play football.

The issue is when you starting saying things like "in some respects we've developed beyond what we should have given the resources at our disposal" you start delving into the world of subjectivity as you start to create a scenario where you can never be wrong. The fact of the matter is the end result suggests things arent as bad as being made out which would indicate that clearly something is being done right that we are underestimating or maybe the theory we use for what lead to success at underage level is wrong.

The simple fact is all the talk of contact hours and resources etc, whatever way we look at it if things were as terrible as you'd suggest we'd be at the bottom of European football and yet we arent, in fact we are in the top 10 in Europe at u17 & u19 level and in pot 2 at u21 level (which in itself is impressive given we lose more u21s to our senior team than most nations, in fact in the last u21 campaign the only nation that lost more than us was Luxembourg) so either we are doing something right in both regards in some way, or maybe neither regard is as crucial as we make it out to be. Either way simply saying things like "we are doing better than we should" doesnt really fly with me when its on a consistent basis that we are doing well at underage level, the table I mentioned is over 3-4 campaigns so not just a flukey one off table, so clearly something is being done right behind the scene's in both regards or its just not as crucial as made out, which one is it?

[CSAD]

In fact I knew Pineappler wouldn't be able to resist Googling the relevant number I'd only half remembered & was too lazy to do it myself. But wool over my eyes ... very good. Carry on.

Lesser aspects of your personality starting to come through in your use of vocabulary there, when challenged also.

You've proven nothing.

Crafty, you can stoop to personal insults all you want, I've already shown you the numbers that prove I'm right. Pineappler has a history of twisting reality to suit his narrative and if you choose to believe him go right ahead but the facts clearly show I'm right on this occasion.

[elatedscum]

Well you have the Danish stats above. For Uruguay, of their 2018 World Cup squad (which lost to France in the quarters) -

1 left at 16 (Lucas Torreira, the only player not to play domestically first)
2 at 18
4 at 19
7 at 20
5 at 21
1 at 23
1 at 25
1 at 26
1 at 28

So very similar again.


The fact that Croatia team still reached the World Cup final (and the 2022 semis) kinda blows out of the water your suggestion that Denmark suffered from "a lot of journeymen who stayed beyond these ages [16/17] but their progress probably show's that maybe that wasn't the right decision."

Just an FYI - Uruguayan players can only leave at the age of 18. Torreira was an exception cause he was a Spanish citizen, so was entitled to play anywhere in the EU from 16. Just worth factoring in. Basically their clock of availability starts in the first transfer window after their 18th birthday.

I remember hearing a Danish journalist on the radio, probably just over a decade ago. He said they basically had a two tier approach. The truly elite kids, he used Eriksen as his example, who was at Ajax at the time. He said to maximise his potential, he needed to go to leave Denmark, but the second tier of players were better served staying in Denmark till later. The numbers re Denmark's players basically show that's what happened

[pineapple stu]

you're comparing two completely different nations!
Wasn't a problem when you were comparing Denmark to us.

[CSAD]

Wasn't a problem when you were comparing Denmark to us.

Because Ireland and Denmark are in the EU and can move to another EU nation at 16, Croatia before 2013 was not EU so most of their players couldn't move until they were 18...same applies for Uruguay as elated stated.

[pineapple stu]

Just an FYI - Uruguayan players can only leave at the age of 18.
That's fine, as is the idea of a truly elite player moving early. But the point being made was


For example at Euro 2020 the Danish side that got to the SF of the Euro's the vast majority of those players left Denmark at 16/17 years old, obviously the odd exception will exist but the majority left at an age most Irish players leave.

That's clearly nowhere near being true. And Croatia and Uruguay have clearly not suffered from having their players stay until 18-22 sort of age.

And it was in response to Stutts' point bemoaning our lack of academy coaches here -


And in what universe is celebrating 16 year olds going to Germany to learn a trade a good thing

Finn Sherlock is not a truly elite player for example. I'd classify your "truly elite player" as CSAD's "odd exception"