Debate - Future of Youth Development in Irish Football

[Nagger]

Very informative article alright and not a knock on you nagger or anyone who has posted on this topic, but are we that far behind the times in Ireland that we are really only waking up now to the concept of smaller pitches and 2 v 2, 5 v 5's etc.

The reason I ask is that I have lived in America for 20 plus years and small pitches and small sided games has been the order of the day for as long as I can remember. I played at LOI level back home and I can honestly tell you that I learned more in the first six months after coming to America than I did in my entire life at home. It's all down to coaching at the end of the day and from what I can gather, but I hope someone proves me wrong, the coaching in Ireland for young kids is s****.

I read somewhere a few months ago that the next year should produce a lot talent in Ireland because of some new coaching scheme the FAI have implemented?
That seems to be the 'official' word but the word from the man on the street (on this forum) would seem to suggest otherwise?

How are we fixed in Ireland for a revolution in coaching like the Belgians have done? Does anyone have an opinion?

To be honest, I don't know that much about Irish coaching. I'm living in Holland myself, and overhere its all smaller pitches, and in training its 2v2 , 3v3, sometimes 3v2, 3 attackers v 2 defenders. and when the kids play tournaments, its 5v5. The kids learn some much. Some kids couldnt control a ball when they started, and if you see them now, 6 months to a year later. The difference is unbelieveable. Thats my experience so far in Holland

I was checking reading an article, http://www.thecoachdiary.com/coachtalk-anthony-oneill/ and was sorry to see only 2 clubs in Ireland are using the Ajax online academy and TIPS model.
Not sure if the coaching revolution is headed for Ireland anytime soon. I hope so offcourse :)

[mark12345]

To be honest, I don't know that much about Irish coaching. I'm living in Holland myself, and overhere its all smaller pitches, and in training its 2v2 , 3v3, sometimes 3v2, 3 attackers v 2 defenders. and when the kids play tournaments, its 5v5. The kids learn some much. Some kids couldnt control a ball when they started, and if you see them now, 6 months to a year later. The difference is unbelieveable. Thats my experience so far in Holland

I was checking reading an article, http://www.thecoachdiary.com/coachtalk-anthony-oneill/ and was sorry to see only 2 clubs in Ireland are using the Ajax online academy and TIPS model.
Not sure if the coaching revolution is headed for Ireland anytime soon. I hope so offcourse :)

Cheers Nagger for that insight from on the ground in Holland. Their coaching system needs no introductions and the evidence of their work comes from their repeated appearances in the latter stages of major tournaments, and that form a country with a population about double of ours. Illustrates my point exactly - it's all down to coaching. And at the end of the day, the biggest obstacle to the progress of Irish football, at this moment in time, is the ill educated coaches who are in charge of our youth.

[SkStu]

It's down to coaching yes, but then also structure feeding to league of ireland as pinnacle. The very best go to England young but the rest stay for a few years and learn to play the game in a semi-professional league before moving on.

[Charlie Darwin]

I have to say, watching a small but dedicated crowd in Cork cheering on St Mochta's, it's a pity there's only so high a club can go in this league. You'd imagine they'd love to have the chance of seeing their team playing league clubs more often.

[Stuttgart88]

Who are they playing?

[Charlie Darwin]

Mochta's? They drew Cork City in the cup on Friday night. They were beaten 6-0 but that wasn't really the point - they brought down what looked like a crowd of 30+, which is pretty good for a LSL Division 1B side. They're also from the large part of Dublin with no LOI side.

[Nagger]

It's down to coaching yes, but then also structure feeding to league of ireland as pinnacle. The very best go to England young but the rest stay for a few years and learn to play the game in a semi-professional league before moving on.

Good coaching is definately needed. But the best players should be playing football at least 1.5 to 2 hours, 5 days a week. If they can get in Ireland. Great! If they have to go to England, also great.
I used to go to school with kids who played for AZ Alkmaar. They had a daily training session out of school, sometimes even twice a day. And on saturday was match day.

Are there any clubs in Ireland who do this?

[mark12345]

Good coaching is definately needed. But the best players should be playing football at least 1.5 to 2 hours, 5 days a week. If they can get in Ireland. Great! If they have to go to England, also great.
I used to go to school with kids who played for AZ Alkmaar. They had a daily training session out of school, sometimes even twice a day. And on saturday was match day.

Are there any clubs in Ireland who do this?

I would seriously doubt it. I remember training for a LOI team back in the day and wondering to meself - "we train twice a week, how good would we be if we trained four times a week?"

[Bungle]

There's lots of very good points being made here. For me, youth development or lack of it is a far more cutting and important problem for Irish soccer than our lack of quality in the senior side right now.

The key for me is increasing the amount of UEFA accredited coaches in the country. I've seen youth teams in the smaller schoolboy clubs thrive more in 2 days of a session with a UEFA qualified coach than 3-4 years with their own coach, who often can be very good and well intentioned, but lacks the know-how to take their kids to the next level. I will try and find out where we stand with regard to the rest of Europe, but I think to go through all your badges right through to UEFA A can cost up to 10,000 euro in Ireland. Clubs like St Kevin's, Crumlin United etc can afford to send coaches to get their badges, but not the smaller clubs. For us, to really kick on, every schoolboy club should have one coach with at least a UEFA B licence (ideally more). The FAI need to roll out the coaching badges and make it far more feasible to do. In the past, it wasn't the same issue - the kids in Dublin and Cork were street footballers and had the technical ability of the foreigners, even if they lacked the coaching. Now, street football is almost a forgotten thing in this part of the world.

Another thing that needs to happen is that LOI clubs should be centres of excellence in their locality for the best young talent. All the coaches at Rovers/Bohs/Cork etc right through from the youngest age-group should have UEFA A licences. Our LOI clubs will still lose a Noe Baba or Jack Byrne to English clubs, just like FC Copenhagen or Partizan Belgrade do, but the lads left will be of a much higher standard, and there will be a massive knock on effect for the LOI. The FAI should support this by having a properly run LOI academy league. At the current time, the top schoolboy clubs run the show for youth football. It's hard to be critical when if it wasn't for them, we would produce next to nothing, but wouldn't it be great if it was Rovers or Bohs or Sligo having the cream of the talent.

It would also be great if FAI coaches went into local schools and spent time with kids teaching them skills and getting kids involved in sport that otherwise might not. A friend of mine is a headmaster and he has an FAI coach coming in playing football with the kids once a week for an hour. That's down to him being friends with this man, who is doing it off his own bat for free. Wouldn't it be great if it happened in every school. The GAA and the IRFU seem to be proactive with schools. The FAI need to do likewise.

Is there anything that can be done by us to try and get things changed? Would it be good if all of the fans groups on the various sites like here and YBIG lobbied the FAI and really threw it into the public domain to try and get things changed? I'm not sure if it would make a difference, but I'd love if I could make some small difference and be in the stands watching us lose a quarter final to Argentina in 2030, rather than finish 5th in a qualification group!!

[Stuttgart88]

What about a trying to drum up support to get this Oireachtas Committee to ask questions of the FAI?

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/oireachtasbusiness/committees_list/transportandcommunications/members/

I'm not great on social media but I'm sure somehow all 25 people in Ireland who actually care anymore can be united!

It needn't be threatening to the FAI. Quite simply the terms could be "If you could start afresh how would you do things? Is this different to the status quo? What obstacles prevent change?".

In the UK the Department of Culture Media and Sport organised a thorough inquiry into football's governance and as a result a Football Governance Bill is being put through parliament right now.

The Oireactas Committee linked above were pretty eager to invite the GAA in to answer for their decision to sell TV rights to SKY. There is a Dail group of football supporting TDs and of course Mick Wallace has in interest in these matters. Personally I expect government can't give a hoot even though the ISC channels funding to the FAI on their behalf.

I think the Denis O'Briens of the country could be able to help financially. The problem is that nobody knows what the problem is but plenty offer trite solutions like a 32 county team or entering Leinster into the Champions League :(

[Bungle]

What about a trying to drum up support to get this Oireachtas Committee to ask questions of the FAI?

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/oireachtasbusiness/committees_list/transportandcommunications/members/

I'm not great on social media but I'm sure somehow all 25 people in Ireland who actually care anymore can be united!

It needn't be threatening to the FAI. Quite simply the terms could be "If you could start afresh how would you do things? Is this different to the status quo? What obstacles prevent change?".

In the UK the Department of Culture Media and Sport organised a thorough inquiry into football's governance and as a result a Football Governance Bill is being put through parliament right now.

The Oireactas Committee linked above were pretty eager to invite the GAA in to answer for their decision to sell TV rights to SKY. There is a Dail group of football supporting TDs and of course Mick Wallace has in interest in these matters. Personally I expect government can't give a hoot even though the ISC channels funding to the FAI on their behalf.

I think the Denis O'Briens of the country could be able to help financially. The problem is that nobody knows what the problem is but plenty offer trite solutions like a 32 county team or entering Leinster into the Champions League :(

that would be brilliant. We need to get the problems of underage football in this country out in a more public domain. how would we need to do it before approaching the Oireachtas Stuttgart? Would we need to get information for them to put to the FAI such as comparisons with other countries? Would several fans groups add weight to the fight?

[Eminence Grise]

I like the idea. With the right support who's to say it couldn't produce something useful?

It seems to me that the three key people on that committee are John O'Mahoney, Mick Wallace and Eamon Coughlan - all three have the strong sports background to appreciate the benefits of good sporting infrastructure and practice. Wallace, though, has a conflict of interest given the Youths and might have to step back on it.

For anything to get brought up at a JHOC, it needs to be current or related to legislation, or (cynic!) capable of shining a positive light on the members. Anything else is harder to put on the agenda. Knowing at the outset what you want to achieve is crucial: do you want to mark the FAI's cards, create a debate (again, why?), facilitate state-private sector involvement etc. The better briefed the JHOC is, the stronger the case, so a comprehensive briefing document and meetings or other communication with the members would be essential. At the very least, you would need to know at the outset which members of the committee would support a national debate on football, and for instance,which would care little about it, or prefer to be seen active on GAA issues. That's where having an organisation behind you makes sense.

Just riffing with ideas, but questions on underage coaching (tied into tackling social disadvantage or crossing the gender divide), preventing the forced migration of youngsters to UK clubs, potential employment opportunities from professionalisation of clubs (players and administration) and exchequer benefits from infrastructure projects, increased commercial activity etc that that would bring. As I said, just riffing -there are probably much better things to consider.

[Charlie Darwin]

I know it's the Daily Mail and the whole "Belgian system" thing has been done to death, but decent article here. Not that at no point did anybody talk about how they could get players going to France and the Netherlands at a younger age.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2411916/A-BELGIAN-BLUEPRINT-Story-Michel-Sablon-changed-Belgium-team-today.html

[gastric]

Good article overall. Haven't we got a few underage players at Anderlecht, one being a goalkeeper? Maybe we benefit from their blueprint!

[Nagger]

The Belgium blueprint

- Winning at all costs is over-rated
- Five against five games at youth levels
- Seven against seven for older kids
- Delayed introduction to full-size pitches

Seems simple enough :)

[tetsujin1979]

slightly related - Dundee United have sold 18 year old midfielder Ryan Gauld to Sporting Lisbon, his new contract includes a 60m buy out clause - http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jul/02/ryan-gauld-sporting-lisbon-60m-buy-out-clause?CMP=twt_gu

[osarusan]

I work with a Belgian, who is very much into football, and he told me that there is quite a lot of scepticism in Belgium from people outside the Belgian FA about the extent of the credit/praise that the Belgian FA are claiming for the new wave of Belgian players.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Also slightly related. Young Scottish left back Stephen Kingsley has signed for Swansea, a good passing team. Robert Snodgrass is back in the PL with Hull. Ross McCormack linked with a big money move to PL clubs. Chris Kettings has moved to Crystal Palace as back up for Julian Speroni. West Brom had a bid rejected for Andrew Robertson. Burnley had a bid rejected for Craig Bryson. Matt Gilks heavily linked with PL clubs. Ross Wallace, Paul Gallagher, Scott Arfield and Matt Phillips have all been promoted to the PL with their clubs.

Meanwhile no Irish players have made moves to top tier teams in any country. No Irish players look like doing so. Pilkington would probably be the best bet but his well documented injury problems seem to have turned teams off. Richard Dunne is the only Irish player that got promoted and he is 35, and QPR have signed Rio and are looking to sign at least one more CB.

The numbers of Irish players in the PL are ever decreasing, there are scarcely any Irish players that look like making the move, the Irish players that get promoted aren't judged good enough to make the step up (Garvan, Treacy), our most talented young player outside the top flight signed a new contract at Derby (and there are far younger players than him making the step up) and whatever lads could make an ambitious move to a bigger team or decent standard foreign team don't seem to have the bottle or determination to do so.

It's pure depressing.

Like the biggest move from an Irish standpoint this summer is going to be Roy Keane, and he is our assistant manager!

[DannyInvincible]

Good article overall. Haven't we got a few underage players at Anderlecht, one being a goalkeeper? Maybe we benefit from their blueprint!

Do we have a few? I know of one - Liam Bossin - who qualifies through his mother. He's the goalkeeper and has been included in a few of our under-age squads.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Do we have a few? I know of one - Liam Bossin - who qualifies through his mother. He's the goalkeeper and has been included in a few of our under-age squads.

Robin Walsh is the other.

[Stuttgart88]

TOWK's post prompted me to dig up this old article from 2009 which I posted in 2010 after England's World Cup exit.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/an-eight-point-plan-to-get-scottish-football-back-on-track-1.992388

It was an article by management consultant Alistair Gray (of Genesis Report fame) calling on the SFA to urgently overhaul the workings of Scottish football. I wonder if any part of their upturn in fortunes can be attributed to his suggestions?

It took me a while to locate the article but some of my unsuccessful searches resulted in articles he wrote bigging up the work he did for the FAI, trumpeting the work of JD, the FAI governance reforms, and the appointment of Koevermans and bemoaning the lack of similar characters or imaginative appointments in Scotland. I wonder what he thinks now!

Edit: I just read the Mail article on Belgium above, not realising that the SFA is mimicking the Belgian model.

I can't even detect whether any of this strategic soul searching is even on the FAI's agenda. I'm happy to give Ruud Dokter the benefit of the doubt. His CV is impressive and I reckon he knows his stuff. My gut feeling (another one) is that many of the right ingredients are in place in Ireland. Our coaches aren't stupid and I'm led to believe there is a growing body of enlightened young coaches trying to do things differently. The NDSL is apparently very impressive, for example.

Facilities? I've no idea, but it expect in the lesser population areas they're terrible.

Coach education? We have some good coaches but nowhere near enough.

The shape of the game? Factions, divisions and chaos is what it looks like to me.

Funding? Nobody is prepared to invest but everybody is happy to try and get in on the action when the bandwagon starts rolling

[Stuttgart88]

In a curious sense, the lack of money in the Scottish game is probably working to their advantage. In 2009 less than half of SPL players were Scottish eligible. I'd say there are a lot more now and a proper pathway has opened up for Scottish talent to progress.

[DannyInvincible]

I see Sporting Lisbon snapped up promising Dundee United youngster Ryan Gauld on a six-year contract for £3 million with a release clause of €60 million. He's been dubbed "Baby Messi", but he hasn't represented Scotland at senior level yet.


Robin Walsh is the other.

Do they pronounce it 'Valsh' in Belgium?

[BonnieShels]

slightly related - Dundee United have sold 18 year old midfielder Ryan Gauld to Sporting Lisbon, his new contract includes a 60m buy out clause - http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jul/02/ryan-gauld-sporting-lisbon-60m-buy-out-clause?CMP=twt_gu


I see Sporting Lisbon snapped up promising Dundee United youngster Ryan Gauld on a six-year contract for £3 million with a release clause of €60 million. He's been dubbed "Baby Messi", but he hasn't represented Scotland at senior level yet.


Where did you see that? Tets posted it yesterday.

[Stuttgart88]

Where did you see that? Tets posted it yesterday.
Are you having a conversation with yourself there?

[Stuttgart88]

Do they pronounce it 'Valsh' in Belgium?in Flanders yes, Wallonia no :)

[Stuttgart88]

I've just seen Ryan Gauld on Sky. And people say Chris Forrester needs to bulk up?

Some of the better players at the World Cup are seriously skinny. Neymar would be one.

[BonnieShels]

Are you having a conversation with yourself there?

It was directed at Mr Invincible who missed Tets' post from yesterday.


in Flanders yes, Wallonia no :)

I fear eligibility discussions wafting from that flippant post.

[Charlie Darwin]

I've just seen Ryan Gauld on Sky. And people say Chris Forrester needs to bulk up?

Some of the better players at the World Cup are seriously skinny. Neymar would be one.
People confuse skinny with weak, I think. Forrester would get outmuscled if he went to England, I think. In fact, I think he might have a hard time of it against the Poles.

[BonnieShels]

People confuse skinny with weak, I think. Forrester would get outmuscled if he went to England, I think. In fact, I think he might have a hard time of it against the Poles.

They're pretty static. He should have no problem walking around them.

[Olé Olé]

Also slightly related. Young Scottish left back Stephen Kingsley has signed for Swansea, a good passing team. Robert Snodgrass is back in the PL with Hull. Ross McCormack linked with a big money move to PL clubs. Chris Kettings has moved to Crystal Palace as back up for Julian Speroni. West Brom had a bid rejected for Andrew Robertson. Burnley had a bid rejected for Craig Bryson. Matt Gilks heavily linked with PL clubs. Ross Wallace, Paul Gallagher, Scott Arfield and Matt Phillips have all been promoted to the PL with their clubs.


The impact that almost all of that list (Snodgrass and, maybe, Phillips aside) will have upon the Premier League next season will be completely and utterly negligible.

[DannyInvincible]

Where did you see that? Tets posted it yesterday.

Haha, sorry, Tets! I'd seen it on the BBC during my lunch. I will skim Foot.ie more carefully on my work lunch-break in future! :p

[Stuttgart88]

Brian Lenihan to Arsenal? Thescore.ie

[CityRebel]

Brian Lenihan to Arsenal? Thescore.ie
Also linked with Aston Villa, Everton, Wigan and Bournemouth.

[Nagger]

Brian Lenihan to Arsenal? Thescore.ie

I thought Arsenal stopped scouting in Ireland.

Hope this rumour is true. Would be good for player and LOI. :)

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

The impact that almost all of that list (Snodgrass and, maybe, Phillips aside) will have upon the Premier League next season will be completely and utterly negligible.

I would rather have thirty players making a negligible impact on the PL than the depleting numbers of Irish players (probably around 12) making a negligible impact on the PL. Three or four Scottish players scored virtually more goals than our entire pool of players in the Championship. They have several players at Dundee United, alone, who are linked with huge clubs - one of them just moved to Sporting Lisbon.

It's shocking being an Irish fan these days. No players displaying upward mobility - or any kind of mobility - such as that of moving to continental clubs. One of two players averaging 6 or 7 a season in the League and then one or two chipping in with one or two.

Our best LB option is Stephen Ward FFS! Two Scottish left backs are on the move to the PL this summer!

With Dunne facing a struggle to start for QPR, the midfield signings Hull are making allied with Brady's continuing fitness struggles, the players relegated/retired/out of contract and no players coming up with the promoted teams our numbers in the PL are depleting and this, an increase in foreign managers, increased scouting across the rest of the world, the lifestyle attraction of playing in US and Australia and an unwillingness of Irish players to even consider playing anywhere other than Scotland or England.... I forecast dark days.

[Olé Olé]

I guess I should just give up supporting Ireland now...

[BonnieShels]

Brian Lenihan to Arsenal? Thescore.ie


Also linked with Aston Villa, Everton, Wigan and Bournemouth.


I thought Arsenal stopped scouting in Ireland.

Hope this rumour is true. Would be good for player and LOI. :)

Looks like our youth prospects have "turned the corner".

[centre mid]

Wasn't the headline "arsenal looking at the new Seamus Coleman"? He's only 26 ffs. Lenihan has been very good from the little I've seen of him. Still plenty of time for him, not sure Arsenal is right fit.

[Olé Olé]

Wasn't the headline "arsenal looking at the new Seamus Coleman"? He's only 26 ffs. Lenihan has been very good from the little I've seen of him. Still plenty of time for him, not sure Arsenal is right fit.

Tough one, isn't it? Arguably, Arsenal aren't lightyears ahead of Everton, who managed to nurture Seamie into the best right-back in the PL. Furthermore, Arsene Wenger tends to give youth much more of a chance at Arsenal than David Moyes did at Everton.

I was thinking to myself, maybe Bournemouth is the best option because he's likely to progress to first-team level at a faster rate and they're a club on the up under Eddie Howe. On the other hand, the coaching he'll get at Arsenal is likely to be better and he'll likely be afforded superior loan options at Arsenal than Bournemouth could provide.

Maybe it's as simple a fact that if he has enough talent he'll make it at a level reflecting those talents. But Conor Clifford and Christy Fagan were regarded by some in the know as the two of the best young players to come out of Ireland in the last 10 years and neither has progressed to the top level (maybe there's something in the fact that they moved to clubs of Arsenal's stature i.e. Chelsea and Manchester United, and at a younger age). So many variables to take into account. It'll be a tough decision if he does get a few offers on the table. Alls we can do is hope for the best for the lad!

[Stuttgart88]

It's hard to know. The Coleman route was ideal. Move to big club and get lent out, but with an automatic pathway back to a big club. If Lenihan went to Bournemouth, even if he impressed his pathway upwards would be less certain.

[Olé Olé]

Yeah, and Coleman was lent to an upwardly mobile side (at the time) in Blackpool, so he was involved in the fever pitch of a PL promotion. It all just fell beautifully for Seamie, bar that one average season he had. But that average season was on the back of a very, very good season so he had acquired goodwill on the back of that.

Perhaps Arsenal would be a great move for Lenihan, if the interest is genuine. He'd be getting the best coaching and likely to get a good loan because his fee will have given effect to a tangible indication of how Arsenal rate him and a marked market value. If he, consequently, doesn't make it at Arsenal then he should have suitors of a decent level. It'll all depend on how far he is from the top.

[Stuttgart88]

Quite a few of Arsenal's League Cup starlets have plummeted down the leagues too, though.

Towk is pretty downbeat about our future prospects, and probably with good reason, but it'd be nice to think some lads are on the verge of a decent breakthrough if their cards fall right.

[mark12345]

No players displaying upward mobility - or any kind of mobility - such as that of moving to continental clubs. One of two players averaging 6 or 7 a season in the League and then one or two chipping in with one or two..........the lifestyle attraction of playing in US and Australia and an unwillingness of Irish players to even consider playing anywhere other than Scotland or England.... I forecast dark days.

Got to agree. Just looking at the World Cup and teams like Costa Rica, Algeria and to an extent, Honduras. All are some way ahead of us based on their performances in Brazil. Teamwork, ball retention, fighting for the cause etc are all attributes those teams have, among everyone else at this year's World Cup with the possible exception of England, and we don't anymore.

You mention the attraction of playing in the USA. I live here and I would dearly love to see our young lads come over here en masse. I cannot complement the coaching here enough and I firmly believe that Irish kids would do themselves a world of good if they were to come. It is the land of opportunity (or at least it was before some politicians got a hold of it) and it can be the land of opportunity for Irish football going forward.

[Stuttgart88]

Just as an aside, you should read Dave Hannigan's article on US footy in the Irish a Times from a few days ago. Basically, coaching costs a packet and only middle class kids can afford to play. Clint Dempsey was from a poor background but was so obviously gifted others mucked in to help his family pay. Lots of poor kids are priced out of foot all.

Anyway, Stephanie Roche has just gone to France! Dem French must think all Irish athletes have that name.

Of course the question is, even if. our kids were prepared to go abroad, would they be wanted? Like in business we should be looking to form reciprocal arrangements and partnerships with potential trading partners.

[Stuttgart88]

Got to agree. Just looking at the World Cup and teams like Costa Rica, Algeria and to an extent, Honduras. All are some way ahead of us based on their performances in Brazil. Teamwork, ball retention, fighting for the cause etc are all attributes those teams have, among everyone else at this year's World Cup with the possible exception of England, and we don't anymore.

You mention the attraction of playing in the USA. I live here and I would dearly love to see our young lads come over here en masse. I cannot complement the coaching here enough and I firmly believe that Irish kids would do themselves a world of good if they were to come. It is the land of opportunity (or at least it was before some politicians got a hold of it) and it can be the land of opportunity for Irish football going forward.
We drew with Costa Rica and missed a penalty. Honduras were muck. Algeria were good but then again North African football is of a consistently high quality and many players were developed in France.

I'm not saying that what you say is wrong. Teamwork, cohesion etc etc is very important. Let's see if MON can get this. It took both Jack and Mick a long time to make much difference.

But the key is that there are many decent European countries who (a) struggled to qualify and (b) wouldn't have had much impact even if they did. This tournament has been the best of south and Central America and Europe with a few gate crashers, each of whom has an easy path to qualification. Only 4 teams outside Europe's elite qualify for a WC.

This World Cup has important lessons, as they all do, but at the same time no World Cup can ever be definitive proof football in an island of 4m people is in the stone age. The evidence in our case probably lies elsewhere! I know the Irish mentality: we'd be walking up Croagh Patrick naked if we "only" did what Croatia or Bosnia did. Personally I'd be very happy if we could get to that level in the first instance. Then we take our chances wrt good draws etc. Every World Cup has its minnow story. That's a far different thing to saying Ireland should or even could always be a successful World Cup minnow.

[CraftyToePoke]

Just as an aside, you should read Dave Hannigan's article on US footy in the Irish a Times from a few days ago. Basically, coaching costs a packet and only middle class kids can afford to play. Clint Dempsey was from a poor background but was so obviously gifted others mucked in to help his family pay. Lots of poor kids are priced out of foot all.

That was a definite eye opener of a read, amazing achievement because a relative handful of scholarships aside, they are basically bypassing the social demographic most countries draw the majority of their talent from.

[Stuttgart88]

I would rather have thirty players making a negligible impact on the PL than the depleting numbers of Irish players (probably around 12) making a negligible impact on the PL. Three or four Scottish players scored virtually more goals than our entire pool of players in the Championship. They have several players at Dundee United, alone, who are linked with huge clubs - one of them just moved to Sporting Lisbon.

It's shocking being an Irish fan these days. No players displaying upward mobility - or any kind of mobility - such as that of moving to continental clubs. One of two players averaging 6 or 7 a season in the League and then one or two chipping in with one or two.

Our best LB option is Stephen Ward FFS! Two Scottish left backs are on the move to the PL this summer!

With Dunne facing a struggle to start for QPR, the midfield signings Hull are making allied with Brady's continuing fitness struggles, the players relegated/retired/out of contract and no players coming up with the promoted teams our numbers in the PL are depleting and this, an increase in foreign managers, increased scouting across the rest of the world, the lifestyle attraction of playing in US and Australia and an unwillingness of Irish players to even consider playing anywhere other than Scotland or England.... I forecast dark days.
I'm confused Ted. Are you now endorsing Keane's playing in the US?

[DannyInvincible]

That was a definite eye opener of a read, amazing achievement because a relative handful of scholarships aside, they are basically bypassing the social demographic most countries draw the majority of their talent from.

And yet the US players are still prone to a dive or two. :p

[mark12345]

we'd be walking up Croagh Patrick naked if we "only" did what Croatia or Bosnia did. Personally I'd be very happy if we could get to that level in the first instance.

Well put. I would be very happy if we could achieve that level in, say, the next six years, and go from there.