Debate - Future of Youth Development in Irish Football

[BonnieShels]

No. Pure no. In an ideal world that would only work if the association had a long-term planning bone among anyone in charge and if the other vastly more pressing issues that exist in the Irish game were dealt with first. Which they haven't been. So, no.

[Stuttgart88]

I think the concept of central contracts might have some merit but as Bonnie says, the FAI has to sort itself and other issues out first. I expect it'd require UEFA or FIFA sign off though because of the issue of third party ownership which they are trying to regulate more closely.The MLS does indeed have such a system, as far as I know.

As things stand the clubs can't afford anything longer than 9 month contracts so they make next to nothing in transfer fees anyway, only training compensation. Whether the FAI can afford anything longer is another matter, but at least the FAI's interest would now be more directly aligned with the development of players and the progress of the league.

It would need to be very well thought out as there are all kinds of reasons why clubs would object, but could also welcome it.

The UK football writer Patrick Barclay has gone as far as saying the all footballers' contracts be owned by their national associations. Of course, then, who would own Jack Grealish's contract?!

[Charlie Darwin]

MLS has full ownership of contracts. The FAI could arguably have gone down the third-party contract route in the past but not now UEFA is moving towards a complete ban. Even if they weren't, I don't think UEFA would sanction the league taking a financial stake in players' contracts. It would be a conflict of interest, especially if the intention was to sell players on.

[Eminence Grise]

Nice idea, but giving the FAI financial clout and an interest in plundering a squad or two of their best players? With our luck, on his way to the market Delaney would swop players with some random stranger for a handful of magic beans that would turn out to be... beans.

(On a positive, though, it would let the tabloids run a 'going for a song' headline...:D)

[Stuttgart88]

I'd love to be going to this:

http://www.extratime.ie/newsdesk/articles/13536/an-evening-with-brian-kerr-pat-fenlon-and-john-mcdonnell---irish-football-and-its-future/

[geysir]

I'd love to be going to this:

http://www.extratime.ie/newsdesk/articles/13536/an-evening-with-brian-kerr-pat-fenlon-and-john-mcdonnell---irish-football-and-its-future/
There is an added element, the aura of mystery of just who is the leading schoolboy “emerging talent” coach scheduled to discuss the main issues.

[DannyInvincible]

Didn't particularly want to start a new thread for this, so I'll stick it here as not sure where else to put it. Jim McGuinness has undertaken the FAI Coaching Pathway: https://balls.ie/football/jim-mcguinness-taking-first-steps-towards-soccer-management/


It’s just over two years since Jim McGuinness first took up a role with Celtic as a performance consultant. Ever since, there have been some half-serious shouts for him to one day become manager at Parkhead, especially following the departure of Neil Lennon at the end of last season.

The former Donegal manager may actually be taking his first steps towards soccer management or, alternatively, he just wants to gain a better understanding of his current work environment.

According to The Donegal Democrat (http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/sport/soccer/jim-mcguinness-on-fai-coaching-course-ahead-of-celtic-rangers-derby-1-6544493), McGuinness has undertaken the FAI Coaching Pathway. He has already completed the Kickstart 2 section in Dungarvan and begins the FAI Youth Cert Coaching Course next week in Galway.

He’s still a good bit off that UEFA Pro Licence yet though.

https://balls.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/coaching-pathway.jpg

[nigel-harps1954]

He'll probably need badges to actually coach with the first team. He's worked plenty in football before, and would make a damn fine manager. His motivational skills are absolutely second to none.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/from-an-early-age-miller-ticked-the-right-boxes-320926.html

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/ddsl-clubs-helped-stephen-quinn-and-stephen-ward-to-top-1.2153120

Stephen Ward and Stephen Quinn owe debt of gratitude to DDSL.

[DeLorean]

‘We’ve the fundamentals in place to produce better footballers’ – John Delaney (http://www.the42.ie/john-delaney-sports-council-grants-2049210-Apr2015/)


The FAI boss was speaking at the announcement of over €2 million funding for the organisation.


FOR THE FIRST time during his spell in charge of the purse strings, funding for Irish sport — specifically the three main sporting bodies — has not been cut with the Minister of State for Tourism and Sport Michael Ring TD today announcing a €7.4 million investment in rugby, football and Gaelic games through the Irish Sports Council.

The FAI will benefit to the tune of €2.36 million with Chief Executive John Delaney emphasising his organisation’s focus will be on the development of the underage and ladies games.

For kids in particular, this can not only benefit their physical and mental well-being, but also the quality of players who come through at senior level in the League of Ireland and for the national side.

“We’ve a player development plan with 700 people attending the workshops around the country a couple of months ago and we received very positive feedback,” Delaney said.

“It’s not rocket science. Give kids more time on the football, more fun, more flexibility, learning to love possession of the football, not just kick it away. Not to, if they mistake, think they’ve done something wrong but to learn from it.

“I’m a firm believer in the principal that kids should move from 5v5 to 7v7 to 9v9 with no competitions below 12, no keeping of tables, etc. All that’s really common sense.

“I mean, if you play on smaller pitches and have to control the ball better and pass the ball quicker, those are the fundamentals.

“We have a clear pathway through for players now with the U17 league coming in August, the U19 league, the senior league.

“All those will only give us the opportunity to produce better players.”



Another area Delaney told The42 he and his organisation are particularly passionate about is continuing the growth of the women’s game here.

“It is one of our priorities. I’m a father of twins, I’ve a boy and a girl and it’s very important my daughter gets the same opportunity to play sport as my son. I feel very strongly about that, as the FAI does.

“I think Steph Roche’s goal brought more attention to women’s football in this country that we’ve never previously seen. It was a fantastic moment in time and great for her and I wish her the best in her career.

“That helps us to advertise the sport but what we’ve to do is build on the development of the game.

“Looking back on it, a couple of years ago we’d about 8,000 registered women players and now we’ve about 25,000.

“The fact is our U17s got to the quarter-finals of the World Cup in 2010 where they were beaten by the eventual winners and they could qualify for the Euros today all going well. I think they’re tangible examples of how the ladies’ game has improved here.

“I fundamentally believe the principal that every woman has the right to play sport in this country.”



And inclusiveness is something Delaney is keen to stress, citing the FAI’s support for the Irish amputee footballers who participated in the recent world cup and the Night Leagues run by the organisation that are aimed at reducing crime in disadvantaged areas.

“Football is a very simple game, it’s easy to learn and it’s easy to play. Because of that simplicity it adds to increased participation. If you go into a housing estate in a disadvantaged area and bring a football, the kids are more inclined to play sport instead of getting into trouble.

“The FAI’s late night leagues have made a difference in many housing estates around the country, I think the Gardai will verify that.”

[Stuttgart88]

Unfortunately I found football very difficult to play, but at least I persevered.

[osarusan]

Journalist needs to review principal/principle.

[the doc]

I've heard all this type of talk before, I know lots of people involved in the youth development side of the game.
What's said in the media, all these great plans and funding, soon disappear, in preference to what the suits feel are more important to them instead of giving it the time and money it needs.

We have many gifted young sports participants in Ireland, give them a sound development and talent identification programme and we will see vast levels of improvement in both technique and our standards of play in all sports.


I firmly believe that.

[ifk101]

Not to be in agreement with the doc but there is truth in his broad generalisations.

An example in point is the national academy. Talk of an academy was mentioned back in 2006/2007 as a priority. This article dated July 2008 http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/no-cutback-risk-for-academy-says-fai-67142.html hopes an academy is up and running within 3 years. Delaney states in that article "We’ve submitted our plans in terms of the training pitches, the dressing rooms, the seven or eight pitches that we want. €120 million is set aside for phase one, that would encompass the plans we’re putting forward.”

Fast forward to September 2013, Delaney says the following: “Over the last seven years, we have invested over €60 million into the development of the game. A big part of this includes a national emerging talent programme, involving weekly sessions for 3,000 of our best young male and female players, replicating the work undertaken at big academies. The appoint of our new High Performance Director, Ruud Dokter from Holland, and the development of our new National Academy in Abbotstown are very important pieces in this work. I can see where Martinez is coming from in the sense that elite development structures are required to compete in modern international football."
" I’m confident that we have a good base, improving facilities and already, new young, talented players are coming through our Elite pathway. We have a coaching network that many similar countries would wish for so the investment in the future development of players is being made. There is always more to do, but we’ve definitely made a good start in recent years and Ruud’s appointment will take it on to the next level.” http://www.independent.ie/sport/exclusive-john-delaney-chronicles-a-big-week-in-irish-football-29579507.html

This article from October 2013, puts Delaney's above comments into perspective and reveals the original 7/8 pitches desired by the FAI in 2008 has been cutback to 2 pitches http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/irelands-problem-is-not-resources-246255.html "Six years later the latest academy plan is for two full-sized pitches and dressing-rooms. €388,852 in Fifa funding was promised last year, along with a €500,000 government grant. The project remains “in development”, according to the FAI website."

The first sod turning took place last March - plans for 4 pitches and 1 artificial. This was to be completed the end of 2014. Work is still ongoing. http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fai-teams-up-with-irish-independent-as-official-partners-30059192.html

[the doc]

Not to be in agreement with the doc but there is truth in his broad generalisations.

An example in point is the national academy. Talk of an academy was mentioned back in 2006/2007 as a priority. This article dated July 2008 http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/no-cutback-risk-for-academy-says-fai-67142.html hopes an academy is up and running within 3 years. Delaney states in that article "We’ve submitted our plans in terms of the training pitches, the dressing rooms, the seven or eight pitches that we want. €120 million is set aside for phase one, that would encompass the plans we’re putting forward.”

Fast forward to September 2013, Delaney says the following: “Over the last seven years, we have invested over €60 million into the development of the game. A big part of this includes a national emerging talent programme, involving weekly sessions for 3,000 of our best young male and female players, replicating the work undertaken at big academies. The appoint of our new High Performance Director, Ruud Dokter from Holland, and the development of our new National Academy in Abbotstown are very important pieces in this work. I can see where Martinez is coming from in the sense that elite development structures are required to compete in modern international football."
" I’m confident that we have a good base, improving facilities and already, new young, talented players are coming through our Elite pathway. We have a coaching network that many similar countries would wish for so the investment in the future development of players is being made. There is always more to do, but we’ve definitely made a good start in recent years and Ruud’s appointment will take it on to the next level.” http://www.independent.ie/sport/exclusive-john-delaney-chronicles-a-big-week-in-irish-football-29579507.html

This article from October 2013, puts Delaney's above comments into perspective and reveals the original 7/8 pitches desired by the FAI in 2008 has been cutback to 2 pitches http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/irelands-problem-is-not-resources-246255.html "Six years later the latest academy plan is for two full-sized pitches and dressing-rooms. €388,852 in Fifa funding was promised last year, along with a €500,000 government grant. The project remains “in development”, according to the FAI website."

The first sod turning took place last March - plans for 4 pitches and 1 artificial. This was to be completed the end of 2014. Work is still ongoing. http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fai-teams-up-with-irish-independent-as-official-partners-30059192.html

Good post, I generalised as not to open up discussions that Tetsa would be banning for having no documented proof.

Your post touched on some of those matters, there are others but as I've said can't be posted.

Promises promises, but in all honesty if it's a 2 week freebie for the suits or a new under age pitch to help player development, there's only going to be one winner.

In 5 years time we will still be hearing the same old lines from the "I'm all right Jack" suits

Sad but true!

[Charlie Darwin]

The facilities at Abbotstown will apparently be opened in May or June, finally: http://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/fai-chief-executive-john-delaney-5528382

[tetsujin1979]

Some interesting answers here to the question "why do many soccer players not make it to the top level": www.quora.com/Why-do-many-soccer-players-not-make-it-to-the-top-level

[tetsujin1979]

Not sure if this was posted elsewhere on the forum, apologies if it was
Merseyside clubs still searching for gems in Ireland
Liverpool FC Academy Chief Scout Dave Moss and Everton Academy coach and former Ireland star Kevin Sheedy give their views on how are young Irish players viewed by the people who man Premier League academies: http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/merseyside-clubs-still-searching-for-gems-in-ireland-337618.html

[gastric]

Was looking at YBIG yesterday and one guy on there had attended some of the FAI camps and was very complimentary about the skills and ability of some of the 8 and 9 year olds who attended. He mentioned that he felt the future might be bright for Irish football. Can anyone on here elaborate on his comments, possibly someone who attended these camps? I would love to feel a bit more optimistic about where Irish football is at.

[nigel-harps1954]

Was looking at YBIG yesterday and one guy on there had attended some of the FAI camps and was very complimentary about the skills and ability of some of the 8 and 9 year olds who attended. He mentioned that he felt the future might be bright for Irish football. Can anyone on here elaborate on his comments, possibly someone who attended these camps? I would love to feel a bit more optimistic about where Irish football is at.

At this stage, it's more about individual clubs doing something about it. There's a number of very progressive clubs out around the country at the minute.

Any leap in Irish football is not down to the FAI and their camps, but the forward thinking of a few clubs.

[Kingdom]

Something I've wondered about a little, and not in a concerned way either, but something I've noticed at an extremely elite group of kids across in England, and two seperate groups of kids here, one good (ish) the other extremely good, is the focus on developing the players "skills" - i.e. flicks, tricks, step-overs etc.

I appreciate that it looks beautiful and the kid with the step-over, the pace to get round the back, will always stand out, but I've wondered about the lack of straight-forward coaching that I've seen with my own eyes.
Something I've yet to see coached in any shape or form, is defending. He's still part of the ssg's so I'm sure the emphasis is more on getting the ball and creating rather than stopping and destroying.

In reference to my point, and the YBIG post above, there have been 2/3 players I've seen that have been extremely skillful in terms of flicks, but their general play such as passing shooting and moving has been atrocious.

[Stuttgart88]

It's July 2015. Right now, immediately under this Youth Devolpment thread are threads on Robbie Keane and Damien Duff. Says it all!

[back of the net]

It's July 2015. Right now, immediately under this Youth Devolpment thread are threads on Robbie Keane and Damien Duff. Says it all!

Well the Robbie Keane one I can understand - Duff, not so much - but i appreciate your point


Anyway hear JD hit back at his critics.........
http://www.balls.ie/football/john-delaney-speaks-about-martin-oneill-and-ill-informed-critics-of-development-policy/301450

[Stuttgart88]

All I read there was "Emma, my partner". FFS.

[back of the net]

All I read there was "Emma, my partner". FFS.

TBH i was the same - it was the first thing that jumped out at me

And I thought why the hell does he have to mention her in such matters? But thought maybe i was been too harsh on JD - glad to see I wasnt the only one

[DeLorean]

Delaney’s big vision for the FAI seems to focus on the local (http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/delaney-s-big-vision-for-the-fai-seems-to-focus-on-the-local-1.2290479)

[Stuttgart88]

No mention of his partner Emma?

He seems to be saying to all the local fiefdoms "you do your job, I'll do mine, and we'll all get along just grand".

The term "joined up" is a bit of an overused piece of modern corporate-speak but this scenario seems to be the very antithesis of joined up.

For it to work you'd think there'd need to be a lot of FAI coach / coach assistance involved at local level to ensure the message from the top reaches the lower levels. The FAI hasn't the resources for that,

[DeLorean]

Quinny for CEO (http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/niall-quinn-fai-needs-to-change-focus-346345.html)

[BonnieShels]

Quinny for CEO (http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/niall-quinn-fai-needs-to-change-focus-346345.html)

I mentioned this to Stutts a few years ago about him being the ideal man.

[DeLorean]

He's got a pretty good CV for an ex-pro in fairness.

[backstothewall]

He would be perfect. Good CV. He always speaks well in the media. And if nothing else he would cost a fair bit less than Delaney.

[gastric]

Wasn't sure where exactly to put this, but Early is bang on in this article about big clubs and youth development even if it is stating the bleeding obvious. At the same time who can blame youngsters from going to clubs when they are often promised the sun, moon and stars, later to find themselves questioning their 'failure' when released and picked up by smaller clubs. Maybe the new U17 competition might educate players to the pitfalls of signing for big clubs.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/ken-early-big-clubs-no-place-for-young-talent-1.2311686

[DeLorean]

Delaney asks the real question on future of Irish game (http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/brendan-obrien/delaney-asks-the-real-question-on-future-of-irish-game-349495.html?utm_content=buffer864ba&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer)

[BonnieShels]

Delaney asks the real question on future of Irish game (http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/brendan-obrien/delaney-asks-the-real-question-on-future-of-irish-game-349495.html?utm_content=buffer864ba&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer)

Enjoyed that

[Stuttgart88]

I went along to the event organised by Antonio Mantero of the The Coach Diary blog in the Institute of Technology in Blanchardstwown on Monday night.

It was a very good event, Johnny Lyons of 98 FM Sport acting as MC and a good turnout of coaches from schoolboy and some LoI clubs. I met Peter Eccles, ex-Shamrock Rovers CB and capped once by Jack Charlton I think. It lasted 3.5 hours!

Anyway, the panelists were:
- Austin Speight of Coerver Ireland - a private company coaching kids worldwide uising the Coerver Method
- Dermot Dalton(?) of the beautifulgame.ie, another private company using the "Horst Wein Method".
- Mitch Whitty - I think he isTechnical Director of the North Dublin Schoolboys' League
- Mick Lynam - ex-FAI Child Protection Officer, made redundant with the cuts and now working freeelance I think.
- Antonio sat with the panel, but only joined in at the Q&A stage.

Austin & Dermot were both plugging their companies to some extent, but were mainly highliting the fact that there is now a universally accepted philosophy about coaching kids (small sided games - numbers depending on kids' ages, pastoral care, encouragement, technique, mini-leagues versus season-long leagues etc.) and that the traditional Irish method is basically the upside-down version of this. Arsenal no longer even scout in Ireland because of the brutes we tend to produce. We kind of knew all this though.

Mitch Whitty (ex-Chelsea academy coach) described how they have ripped everything up and started again in NDSL, largely in line with the more progressive / enlightened techniques and outlook largely accepted elsewhere. He says the results have been remarkable already with a crop of kids with talent & technique like they've never had before. Although the emphasis is not on winning, they recently went to Manchester and won a big tournament featuring major EPL academy sides. Mitch was positive about the FAI's Emerging Talent Programme whilst recognising its limitations and very positive about Niall Harrison.

Mick Lynam, an ex-Garda in his early 60s(?) and with a MSc in child psychology was a real character. He has dealt with kids from broken homes, deep poverty etc and used football to keep them out of trouble and teach them life skills and values. Again, he is promoting a more enlightened approach to encouraging kids and keeping them engaged and interested rather than the approach we've all heard about, and educating parents etc.

I suppose the key message overall was that there is at least one small group of progressively-minded coaches and organisations in Ireland, but unfortunately few other regions are following NDSL's example. The South Dublin Schoolboys League is miles behind and is run by the head of the SFAI who by all accounts are just operating in a vacuum and nobody even knows what they're trying to do or how they think. The lack of ownership that the FAI has over the broader game is a problem and the SFAI is impervious to FAI influence. Antonio had said that he has tried many times to contact the SFAI and has never got a response.

I asked if the Irish Sports Council can try and lean on the FAI to exert more authority but the ISC has no interest in doing so. Some panel members have tried in the past, but ISC simply say to talk to the FAI.

There was talk about moving schoolboy football to the summer, but all factions would need to agree to this and they can't - highlighting the lack of control a single body has.

Antonio did a great job and is organising more discussion events like this in future. I'll notify you on this site.i was sad to hear of Johnny Lyons' death. I last met him at this event and we had a good chat, as we knew each other in 80s UCD and were both footy and music nerds. RIP Johnny.

[Stuttgart88]

Probably not the best thread for this but kind of relevant. A pal is on the board of Dulwich Hamlets FC in south London.

This article was in today's Observer.

http://www.theguardian.com/global/2015/aug/23/dulwich-hamlet-londons-most-hipster-football-club?CMP=share_btn_link

[DeLorean]

Irish Footballers in the EPL 1992-2015 (http://www.sportseconomics.org/sports-economics/irish-footballers-in-the-epl-1992-2015)


Republic Of Ireland footballers in the EPL
http://www.sportseconomics.org/uploads/2/1/9/8/21985128/9310748.png?581

Compared to Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland
http://www.sportseconomics.org/uploads/2/1/9/8/21985128/1087722.png?577

[SkStu]

that's a really interesting statistic. I would have assumed that our numbers would be way down vs the early 90's. Kind of calls the argument that we "don't have the players" into question. I understand that people might retort with the point that we don't have as many players playing with the top teams as we did in the 90's but neither do England to be perfectly frank.

[Charlie Darwin]

You could probably also make a case that the non-top teams are better than they were before so it's not like all our players are a league below.

[DeLorean]

I understand that people might retort with the point that we don't have as many players playing with the top teams as we did in the 90's but neither do England to be perfectly frank.

England still have an awful lot of players playing for the top clubs to be fair. I know they flirt with the likes of Austin and Vardy these times but this was their most recent team in their qualifying group:



01 Hart
02 Jones (Lallana - 45' )
05 Cahill
06 Smalling
03 Gibbs
04 Henderson
07 Wilshere
08 Delph (Clyne - 85' )
11 Townsend (Walcott - 74' )
10 Rooney
09 Sterling


Including the used substitutes only Delph plays for a side outside what I would consider 'the big six' of Chelsea, Manchester United, Manchester City, Arsenal, Liverpool & Tottenham, although Clyne was with Southampton at the time. They have the likes of Jagielka and Barkley who often start as well and Everton should probably be the next best in England. Our stand out players (on paper at least) are the Everton contingent.

Looking at that team sheet though it's kind of surprising that they've so many (relatively) average players playing with the top clubs, it's easy to understand the English clubs recent Champions League performances in that context.

[Charlie Darwin]

Bit harsh on Delph - hasn't had much of a chance to impress for Man City but to say he doesn't play at all...

[DeLorean]

Jesus I actually forgot about the u-turn!

[DannyInvincible]

Both of you (DeLorean and SkStu) are correct in your respective ways of looking at it. Most of England's regularly-selected senior international players still play for the top teams, but I think it's also accurate to say that Hodgson/the FA have fewer English players from whom to choose at those big clubs nowadays compared to the choice that England managers might have had from those same clubs in former days. Proportionately, England now have fewer players at the bigger clubs now.

Years ago, England had the option of players like Andy Cole, Robbie Fowler, Ray Parlour or Dennis Wise at the big clubs. That's just a few names straight off the top of my head, but would it be fair to say they were never anything more than peripheral (excess) players for England, whilst the fewer regular English starters at the bigger clubs now are invariably pivotal to the international side's fortunes?

[tetsujin1979]

Stephen Hunt on academy stars not making it as professionals: http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/stephen-hunt-academy-thoroughbreds-dont-always-develop-into-stayers-31487838.html

[tetsujin1979]

Interview with Rudd Dokter about the player development plan: https://soundcloud.com/heraldstriker/fai-high-performance-director-rudd-dokterwav

[CraftyToePoke]

Interesting read here about lads falling through the UK academies into upper non league, electing more and more to head stateside into the college / scholarship system instead and some doing very well, educationally and career wise. I wonder if many Irish lads are taking this route, there must be plenty candidates after each UK cull.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34097904

[gastric]

Depressing article in one way, but if NI can do it, we should be able to use a similar model to develop players in the future.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/other-soccer/fai-bottom-of-the-class-for-player-development-34244549.html

[Stuttgart88]

Same paper also reports John Devine is leaving SDSL for a nice job working for Bayern in the USA.

[tetsujin1979]

Some interesting facts about the numbers of games Scotland's underage players are getting in the SPL/Scottish Championship in this article: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/35391918
The tone overall is pretty bleak towards Scottish football at the moment, but their U19s beat Ireland 4-0 only a few months ago, maybe their future isn't so bad?