Debate - Future of Youth Development in Irish Football

[Eminence Grise]

Quinn has some good ideas - it's hard to argue against every club having an academy providing coaching and education. Partnering with people who do it as a business could save time, money and prevent mistakes. Imports to naturalise - no thanks. Tax breaks, well, if you're a big company paying the headline rate of corporation tax you need a new accountant. There are already plenty of breaks. I'm sure a lot of you here know more than I do about that.

He may be pooh-poohing the idea that he could be CEO of the FAI, but CEO of a new national league? That's a different kettle of fish, I suspect...

[tetsujin1979]

What would be the difference between the academy and the existing link up with schoolboy club?

[osarusan]

I'd definitely be in favour of more regional academies/centres, and easier/regular/free access to those centres for LOI youth systems. But I wouldn't really think it's wise to tie them to clubs who often don't have a pot to **** in, and might end up neglecting their part of the bargain, or even end up bleeding them dry.

And given the almost complete lack of actual transfer money between Irish clubs, and the fact that Irish clubs are seldom able to negotiate a decent (if any) sell-on clauses with overseas clubs, I don't think I see a huge opportunity for an academy to make its money back.

I'd like to see how they'd run it as a business.

[DeLorean]

Foot.ie gets a mention here - https://www.the42.ie/niall-quinn-league-of-ireland-plans-4447373-Jan2019/


ONE OF MY favourite League of Ireland urban myths is that a league marketing presentation made to the FAI some years ago was very much inspired by a thread on the online football forum ‘foot.ie’ where members had been bouncing LoI promotion ideas off each other.

[CraftyToePoke]

Foot.ie gets a mention here - https://www.the42.ie/niall-quinn-league-of-ireland-plans-4447373-Jan2019/

Movers, shakers and policy makers on here Del. Known for it, you wouldn't see YBIG getting a nod like that, with their threads full of posts of emojis only.

[Eminence Grise]

That's good going, but it doesn't compete with getting an honourable mention in Termonbarry's Wikipedia page - I swear the Alberts and Hibs had a rivalry to match the league's finest despite never having existed outside BonnieShel's (vivid) imagination!

[Charlie Darwin]

Movers, shakers and policy makers on here Del. Known for it, you wouldn't see YBIG getting a nod like that, with their threads full of posts of emojis only.
They'll always have real fans who actually go to away games though.

[geysir]

They'll always have real fans who actually go to away games though.
Urban myth.

[Kingdom]

We always have it too.....step forward Paul O'Shea

[Paddy Garcia]

This is a truly depressing article

https://www.balls.ie/football/irish-football-scouting-406281

[liamoo11]

This is a truly depressing article

https://www.balls.ie/football/irish-football-scouting-406281

Well if mark o toole is really the only scout the fai have in England he is doing a smashing job cause you look at any 15s or 16s squad and we continue to have a constant flow of non Irish born lads come on board.

[tetsujin1979]

not strictly speaking about development of Irish young players, but obviously there are players in the academy and underage sides of the clubs mentioned: https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/premier-league/scouting-is-a-serious-business-why-premier-league-clubs-are-struggling-to-keep-their-top-young-players-37896313.html

It was a busy Friday for the scouts of Bundesliga clubs who keep an eye on the rich seam of talent in English development football. They were spotted en masse at Arsenal and Chelsea under 18s game at noon in Hertfordshire, and then later at Aldershot Town, where Chelsea under 23s played their Manchester City counterparts at 7.0pm.

[tetsujin1979]

Stephen Bradley on youth development in Ireland, and what he noticed in the UEFA Under 17 Championship: https://www.offtheball.com/sport/stephen-bradley-changes-youth-football-862782

[gastric]

Whether or not it's just pie in the sky, I love that new and ambitious ideas are being spoken about. Can only help with publicizing the League of Ireland.

https://www.independent.ie/au/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/crossborder-league-and-quinn-plan-on-fai-radar-38239650.html

[tetsujin1979]

Interesting article, from the writer of the Sports Gene, on how a wide variety of experience leads to greater success in a specialised field: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/jul/12/generalise-dont-specialise-why-focusing-too-narrowly-is-bad-for-us

When I began to write about these studies a few years ago, I was met with thoughtful criticism, but also denial. Maybe in some other sport, fans would often say, but that’s not true of our sport. The community of the world’s most popular sport, football, was the loudest. And then, as if on cue, in late 2014 a team of German scientists published a study showing that members of their national team, which had just won the World Cup, were typically late specialisers who didn’t play more organised soccer than amateur-league players until age 22 or later. They spent more of their childhood and adolescence playing non-organised football and other sports. Another football study published two years later matched players for skill at age 11 and tracked them for two years. Those who participated in more sports and non-organised football, “but not more organised soccer practice/training”, improved more by age 13. Findings like these have been echoed in a huge array of sports, from hockey to volleyball.

[tetsujin1979]

Laura Finnegan, sport lecturer in WIT, and currently pursuing a PhD in Panter development interviewed on the42: https://www.the42.ie/laura-finnegan-interview-4725630-Jul2019/

[The Fly]

Laura Finnegan, sport lecturer in WIT, and currently pursuing a PhD in Panter development interviewed on the42: https://www.the42.ie/laura-finnegan-interview-4725630-Jul2019/

Cheers.

And breathe...

[tetsujin1979]

behind the scenes look at preparation for an underage game
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[tetsujin1979]

How parents can nurture child’s football dream closer to home: https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/columnists/kieran-shannon/kieran-shannon-how-parents-can-nurture-childs-football-dream-closer-to-home-966799.html
There's a conference for parents of kids who want to play football in DCU in two weeks: https://irishfootballparentsconference.com/

[tetsujin1979]

Coerver coaching are making their coaching drills available for free during the current healthcare crisis: https://coerverew.typeform.com/to/y6Zu8K

[samhaydenjr]

Coerver coaching are making their coaching drills available for free during the current healthcare crisis: https://coerverew.typeform.com/to/y6Zu8K

You're not going to like the thoughts in my head about this, Tets

[tetsujin1979]

Off The Ball interviewed Republic of Ireland u15 head coach Jason Donohue, FAI Head of Coach Education Niall O'Regan, and Women's Football Development Officer Pearl Slattery on the development of players: https://www.otbsports.com/podcasts/the-football-show-on-off-the-ball/meet-coaches-developing-irish-footballers-future

[tetsujin1979]

Twitter thread on the rules for British clubs signing youth players post brexit
1333838500748292097

[pineapple stu]

Can they still get around that by relocating families?

Where there's a will there's a way and all that.

It should be the wake-up call the domestic game needs though. If we take it, the game could be much stronger here. If we don't, then we're heading towards being fourth seeds, and deservedly so.

[kksaints]

Can they still get around that by relocating families?

Where there's a will there's a way and all that.

It should be the wake-up call the domestic game needs though. If we take it, the game could be much stronger here. If we don't, then we're heading towards being fourth seeds, and deservedly so.

Relocating families might also require work permits for parents.

[pineapple stu]

Irish people don't need a visa/work permit to work in the UK I think. As in, they didn't before the EEC because of our close relationship (ie the Brits needed someone to build their roads and sure we were mostly British anyway)

I think that still exists in theory. If it does - and comes back in post-Brexit - then the relocation thing would work

[geysir]

I'm always very shy to blow my own trumpet but I did bring this matter up before the referendum, a 'what if the English voted en masse for Brexit?' I think Charlie Darwin replied and actually added some percipient content. FIFA regulations re the transfer of minors are above whatever special relationship we have with the countries within the UK.

One thing is that training compensation is only paid to associations within the EU/EEA

i don't know about the solidarity payment.

International tranfers of minors under the age of 18 are not permitted between associations outside the EU/EEA

FIFA resource document (https://resources.fifa.com/image/upload/regulations-on-the-status-and-transfer-of-players-june-2019.pdf?cloudid=ao68trzk4bbaezlipx9u)

[pineapple stu]

I agree that these FIFA rules would trump our special agreement, but if a promising Irish footballer just happened to move to England with his family for work reasons, is he an overseas player any more?

That said, you'd imagine there's not a lot of players here who'd merit that kind of attention

[geysir]

But that promising Irish player presumably would have been registered with an Irish club before moving to England and presumably would have to be registered with his/her new English club. There is no way around it unless an English club indulges in hanky panky and the irish club plays along.

[pineapple stu]

That's true, but by that logic a junior player whose family genuinely did emigrate to England for work reasons wouldn't be able to join a club in England surely? That can't be right

[geysir]

That's true, but by that logic a junior player whose family genuinely did emigrate to England for work reasons wouldn't be able to join a club in England surely? That can't be right

That might be different but what we are talking about (99%) are genuinely talented young Irish players signing up with UK clubs in pursuit of sporting greatness.
The family moving with the player would be as a support, but really wouldn't it only be the Mom?:)

[pineapple stu]

"Mom"? *shudder*

Hate that word.

Anyway - why would they be different? I agree deep down they're different, but under the letter of the law if the latter is allowed, why wouldn't the former be?

And again, I don't think we have anyone really worth that much hassle over at the moment. But if English football goes back to pre-92, then it might start to be a factor on occasion

[geysir]

They are diffferent because in your scenario the family emigrates to the UK and the yewt just happens to turn out to be a possible Maradonna.
In 99% of cases the youth has been officially registered with an Irish club and is transferred to a UK club because of promise.
Should any adjudication follow that difference matters a lot.

That's why FIFA have changed their statutes recently toi differentiate betwen genuine family emigration and emigration purely for football purposes.

[pineapple stu]

OK, that's a fair point (that's not related to Brexit). But how effective is it in reality? Or is it just FIFA paying lip-service to what's not far off child trafficking? They don't tend to stand in the way of big clubs getting what they want. I would still say there has to be a large grey area between legit emigration and a club-engineered one (allowing that there can be obvious abuses of the system too of course)

[Demesne Lad]

Brexit: New entry criteria agreed for EU players coming to England - BBC Sport (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55152637)

Good news or bad news for young Irish talent going to England?

[geysir]

OK, that's a fair point (that's not related to Brexit). But how effective is it in reality? Or is it just FIFA paying lip-service to what's not far off child trafficking? They don't tend to stand in the way of big clubs getting what they want. I would still say there has to be a large grey area between legit emigration and a club-engineered one (allowing that there can be obvious abuses of the system too of course)
The relation to Brexit is that the legal transfer age now changes from 16 to 18 between Ireland (Éire) and the UK associations.

Here is an informative article (https://en.derechosdelfutbol.com/transferencia-de-menores) about some of the FIFA actions for known violations by clubs over the transfer of minors but consider also the other effect from the recent changes in the statutes that set criteria to more clearly differentiate between genuine migration and an illegal football purposed migration. Any FIFA investigation would look for evidence of genuine migration.

[John83]

It's probably not hard for the clubs to lure some families across the water for the sake of the kid's career, but it'll be another disincentive for them to recruit here, and makes domestic coaching of teenagers all the more critical to the future of the national team.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, that's the way I'd look at it. Moving from Korea to Spain isn't quite the same as moving from Ireland to England.

But it's definitely encouraging that FIFA are set up to keep an eye on such matters. I don't entirely trust them, but it's an important issue and should be looked at closely.

And at the risk of repeating myself, I don't see relocating a family being a remotely common option at all, even if it can be done out of the roving eye of FIFA. I do think this rule change will impact on Irish football. Players will either go to the continent (but we've no real tradition of doing that), or they'll come through the LoI system (which then needs investment, which the FAI and the Irish public in general seem incapable of or unwilling to give), or they'll fall through the cracks more.

I do think that either the LoI is helped step up, or our international standing will continue to fall.

The flip side is an Irish player once they turn 18 should be of more interest to English clubs if we have a special working agreement that other EU countries don't have. Whether the Premier League will keep its standing is another question of course.

[tetsujin1979]

And another twitter thread, this one goes into more detail and has links to relevant articles
1334098595746902017

[Kingdom]

I agree that these FIFA rules would trump our special agreement, but if a promising Irish footballer just happened to move to England with his family for work reasons, is he an overseas player any more?

That said, you'd imagine there's not a lot of players here who'd merit that kind of attention

That's allegedly what Stokes did with Arsenal. Father was a scout?

[sidewayspasser]

I do think this rule change will impact on Irish football. Players will either go to the continent (but we've no real tradition of doing that), or they'll come through the LoI system (which then needs investment, which the FAI and the Irish public in general seem incapable of or unwilling to give), or they'll fall through the cracks more.
I think both should happen: The domestic system needs to be strengthened, and players should consider the continent as an option. Of course the continent is slightly further away and people are communicating in strange languages over there, but the narrow focus on the UK as more or less the only perceived option abroad isn't really helpful in my opinion.

[Stuttgart88]

Of course the continent is slightly further away and people are communicating in strange languages over thereI love the nuggets of info you can pick up on foot.ie :)

Joking aside, I agree with your point. The questions are: would continental clubs now broaden their scouting to Ireland knowing that they are no longer second-favoured option to go abroad? And will schoolboy clubs broaden their networks abroad?

And of course if better players stay at home and improve competition domestically that is presumably a good thing too, on several fronts.

[Kingdom]

I do think this rule change will impact on Irish football... they'll come through the LoI system (which then needs investment, which the FAI and the Irish public in general seem incapable of or unwilling to give), or they'll fall through the cracks more.

I do think that either the LoI is helped step up, or our international standing will continue to fall.


Your part in bold is the double-edged sword that really concerns me.

Football governance is toxic right now, across all the intersections.

- Public & football (the bail-out)
- Schoolboys & FAI/Dokter
- Schoolboys & LoI
- FAI & everyone

This is the opportunity, with the pariah that's been breathing down our necks since year dot, now removed, with some quality and targetted investment in football (and sport generally), there could be a transformation in the sport on the island.

Btw, are there wider implications for a United Irish league now as a result of this?

[elatedscum]

And at the risk of repeating myself, I don't see relocating a family being a remotely common option at all, even if it can be done out of the roving eye of FIFA.

I have a friend of mine who lives in Poland. His kid is a very decent footballer and totally football obsessed. He plays in the academy of one of the top division sides in Poland but he's 8. Real Madrid and Malaga have offered to bring the family across. Malaga, they're considering because they have family friends there, so the move would be a bit easier - and Real Madrid, because it's hard to turn down Real. I guess for the family, there's also a sense that a move to Spain from Poland could be appealing. Not sure if there have been any other enquiries from other teams but he went on trial multiple times with both teams before covid. I think he initially played against Malaga in a tournament and then while on trial for Malaga, played against Madrid.

I know it's only anecdotal but I can't imagine it's that rare, considering one of my better friends' family has been offered the chance.

[pineapple stu]

Well I chose Korea as an example outside the EU, where it should be a lot harder logistically to move from. Still, it's an interesting anecdote all the same alright. Like, it definitely happens and I'm not entirely sure FIFA having a directive in place against it would stop it.

The FIFA document geysir quoted says an exemption is granted if -


The player’s parents move to the country in which the new club is located for reasons not linked to football

That's fairly get-around-able.

In terms of my "uncommon" comment, I guess it's more how many of the 16-year-olds going from Ireland to England these days would be worth bringing the family with them for? I'd imagine at the very least, while it would still leave the door open to U-18 transfers, it would reduce them. Which I think is a good thing btw, if the game here can step up.

(I think the idea of moving half way across the continent because your 8-year-old is half-decent at football is a bit mental btw, and the general FIFA aim is admirable)

[elatedscum]

(I think the idea of moving half way across the continent because your 8-year-old is half-decent at football is a bit mental btw, and the general FIFA aim is admirable)

I don't disagree with you - it's totally mad. But the father is from brazil and probably of the opinion he'd prefer life in Spain to Poland anyway, away from the relative cold and his spanish would be a lot better than his basic polish, so for him, it seems great but the mother is from poland and would probably prefer to stay there. Sometimes, I suppose that gets to the heart of the matter. Poland is a fairly developed country but the thought of going to Spain, Germany, France, Italy, England and building a life there (quality of education, average wage, standard of living) is nonetheless attractive, so there's an intersection between footballing and non-footballing reasons. (They live less than half an hour from the german border, so i suppose if it was purely about football, there'd be clubs a lot closer to home.

The kid speaks Polish, Portuguese, English and Spanish - which i find incredibly impressive.

If the kid ends up being the next Lewandowski, it'll be a real case of what if. He was supposed to have been born in the Coombe, with the couple having lived in ireland for 4 years before his birth. The mother had a check up in the coombe where two of the maternity nurses made comments about 'eastern european women being spongers' etc. So she decided to go home for the birth instead - moving back to ireland after a month, meaning he doesn't have an irish passport. They continued to live here for 3 more years before decided to move to her hometown...

[John83]

... The mother had a check up in the coombe where two of the maternity nurses made comments about 'eastern european women being spongers' etc. ...
People just suck sometimes, don't they?

[elatedscum]

People just suck sometimes, don't they?

humanity will break your heart...


Your part in bold is the double-edged sword that really concerns me.

Football governance is toxic right now, across all the intersections.

- Public & football (the bail-out)
- Schoolboys & FAI/Dokter
- Schoolboys & LoI
- FAI & everyone

This is the opportunity, with the pariah that's been breathing down our necks since year dot, now removed, with some quality and targetted investment in football (and sport generally), there could be a transformation in the sport on the island.

Btw, are there wider implications for a United Irish league now as a result of this?

Genuinely, i've been so disappointed with what i've seen at junior and schoolboy level. The DDSL and the LSL both smelt blood and did things that were totally self-interest based and harming to football in the country. Their actions over the past 18 months have showed me that the Delaney era was sorta like Saddam's regime. As appalling as Delaney was, the vacuum of power left when he fell made things much much worse.

The DDSL's decision to have u12s playing 11v11 is one example of this. the ultimately rowed back on it: "The Dublin and District Schoolboys/Schoolgirls League now welcomes the opportunity to be involved in the review of grassroots plan and the option to provide the relevant input for the betterment of schoolboy football." it was just a power play. but it's obvious they were prepared to hinder the progress of young footballers purely to better their own situation.

same is the case for calendar football - there are huge issue with participation numbers. aligning the professional, junior and schoolboy calendars makes total sense. we were within a year of that happening before the fallout occurred. there's obvious advantages to professional game going that way (best weather for spectators, less clashes with premier league, easier to qualify for europe due to being mid-season). The basic concepts apply right across the board for juinor and schoolboy. The best months for playing football: generally most of May, June, July and some of August are the months when we're not playing football. Schoolboy football had issues with the transition from traditional to calendar but that was down to taking too long a summer break and to inflexibility of fixture secretaries and it got better over time. the counter arguments are that there are kids on holidays during the summer - but that's where you need flexible fixture secretaries. and the other one is that dual players play GAA during the summer. but frankly GAA has become an 10/11 month season with training and allowing our season to be dictated to by another sport is wrong...

Then there were problems with transitioning youth footballers when they stopped playing youth football. I played with a footballer who would have played with the likes of afolabi, mcauley etc. growing up. he was playing for the best schoolboy side in the country and when his last season ended he didn't sign for anyone. teams were already mid-season. it drifted. he eventually got back into the game but the 7 month gap meant that he was very nearly lost. the overall number of drop offs from schoolboy to junior football is much much higher than it should be.

then at junior level, participation is falling exponentially year on year. go to the league websites and look at the number of divisions and teams year by year, it's insane. the lsl did a big push to take teams with good facilities from other leagues, but even then, they only covered their losses if even. it follows the same pattern. teams start out fine in late august and september and october, then in october games start to get called off with more and more frequency into november. teams train twice a week, then on friday afternoon, the game is called off. players lose the rhythm of playing and it all gets disjointed. then you've got a one month break - 6 week around christmas time. you lose players coming back from that. then after that, you've still got games called off in january and february and when games are played, it's cold, miserable, wet and windy. every year around that time, countless teams fold. i did some analysis on it a few years ago (2 i think) and outside the top division in each league, 30% of games were walkovers.

it's a totally broken and dysfunctional system - and all the players' surveys have backed it up – and LSL basically just said they were refusing to engage with the amateur review before the most transformative reform could take place. then the toothless FAI caved...

it'd drive you to drink...

There's an opportunity post-covid to reform the way in which football at every level operates but i would be less optimistic than ever that it will happen...

genuinely, sports like cricket with almost no participation are able to create fantastic pathways to the highest level and elite development programmes and virtually everything that happens with football here is a ****show

[Stuttgart88]

You're absolutely right to compare JD to Saddam in the context you mention (post-regime chaos), but that just shows how totally messed up the underlying structure is. And your last paragraph is linked to that: sports like cricket develop pathways because their sports are so small they are easier to organise and easier to stop a myriad of vested interests gaining and competing for power and resources.

[passinginterest]

This won't help player development; https://www.fai.ie/domestic/news/underage-elite-football-cancelled-due-to-government-guidance

Facebook conspiracy suggests it might have been influenced by the DDSLs of the world not being happy that elite could continue but they couldn't.