Debate - Future of Youth Development in Irish Football

[tetsujin1979]

Aidan Fitzmaurice asking the same questions in the Independent: https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/why-there-is-return-to-play-but-no-fair-play-when-it-comes-to-the-gaasoccer-divide-39824268.html

[tetsujin1979]

Looks like Under 18s will not be permitted to move to British clubs
1334916881992593408

[ontheotherhand]

Huge opportunity that, with my pessimistic hat on, will be squandered because of John Delaney and the debt he put the FAI in as well as the customary infighting we are too used to.

If we can get around that, and find investment for academies and cohesion between the underage clubs, we might be looking at having a proper pathway for our kids to play ball through the highest levels and a boost for the LoI and national side as well.

Huge hurdles to overcome but the prize would be bigger.

[elatedscum]

I thought this was really interesting by Klopp. More a general point about developing talent.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/dec/04/new-transfer-rules-are-example-of-negative-brexit-impact-jurgen-klopp

His argument is England right now are among the best in the world at producing young talent. And he says that the reason they are so successful is because the youngsters are playing in academies with the best young players around. Training in that elite environment breeds quality and by diluting the talent of the worst players, it effects what the best players will become. Maybe it’s part of the reason for our own little golden generation.

Senior opportunities to play are almost a secondary situation. Lack of opportunities is what leads a Sancho type player to move to Germany. But honestly, in recent years premier league clubs have gotten much better at integrating talented academy youngsters.

Interestingly, thinking about the young players who have played this season at Liverpool: Kelleher, N Williams, Phillips, R Williams, Jones and Elliott- apart from Kelleher, they’re all from the UK. Yet in recent years, their reserves has had really good players from Netherlands, france, Portugal who were sold after a few years at the club.

It’ll be interesting to see going forward whether the likes of Ferguson, Zeffi, Sinclair etc. stay in ireland till 18 or whether they move to Germany, France, Italy, etc etc.

[tetsujin1979]

Is there anything more about Zefi's proposed move to Inter?

[CSAD]

The one big advantage of staying in Ireland until they are u18 is it can give the players more oppertunities for first team football, can help with their maturity which will be needed in the English system which can be ruthless, worked wonders for Bazunu who likely would never have gone to City until he started getting first team oppertunities at Rovers, he was being linked to Brighton and Newcastle until it became noted that he was starting for Rovers at 16 and all of a sudden he started being linked to City,Spurs,Chelsea etc.

[pineapple stu]

I'd say another big advantage is that the guys will at least get a Leaving Cert too. Not everything's about football.

ontheotherhand's post captures the way I view it spot on.

(Also - welcome, new poster!)

[kennedmc]

I'm not sure if this is a good thing. Given the lack of cash available to the FAI and Irish football where is the money going to come to fund all these youth academies? They require huge investment. And we also have to fund skills / grass root development (for all players not just elite) from 6 to 13 / 14 year old (Pre academy) where players primarily develop their technique (According to Wenger anyway)

True there is no guaranteed path to success (Irish youth club > English academy > English club 1st team PL / Championship level) OR
Irish Youth club > Irish based academy > LOI > moved abroad (to mainly English based clubs)

Both the above paths have worked to an extent in the past so I don't think its good to throw all eggs in one basket. Unless I'm missing something

I believe Most funding should be going to developing skills and technique for 6 -13 years olds.

[pineapple stu]

A key issue for me is that the number of Irish players going to English academies has been in decline for years - specifically since the Premier League started signing players from all around the world.

We can't continue to let another country be responsible for our player pathway. It's a large part of why we've been in decline at international level.

Most other countries in Europe have their players come through their domestic league, even if it's a weak league in a country of a similar population to us. We have to start catching up. If we have "one basket", it's the English youth structure to be honest. The underfunded LoI has been very poor in terms of developing players (compared to other leagues)

You're right that financially it's tough, and politically it may be even tougher. But it needs to happen I think, so any spur towards helping us in the right direction should be welcomed as an opportunity, not a risk.

[nigel-harps1954]

I'm not sure if this is a good thing. Given the lack of cash available to the FAI and Irish football where is the money going to come to fund all these youth academies? They require huge investment. And we also have to fund skills / grass root development (for all players not just elite) from 6 to 13 / 14 year old (Pre academy) where players primarily develop their technique (According to Wenger anyway)

True there is no guaranteed path to success (Irish youth club > English academy > English club 1st team PL / Championship level) OR
Irish Youth club > Irish based academy > LOI > moved abroad (to mainly English based clubs)

Both the above paths have worked to an extent in the past so I don't think its good to throw all eggs in one basket. Unless I'm missing something

I believe Most funding should be going to developing skills and technique for 6 -13 years olds.

Even if the moves to England were to continue, your point is irrelvant to the issue anyway, seeing as kids can't leave Ireland until they're 16.

Football in Ireland needs a hell of a lot of investment, it has done for a long time, and this should be the kick up the backside that pushes it.

Dermot Desmond and co already putting a push on Shamrock Rovers academy. They'll inevitably be the first club to go down a proper full time academy road here.

Most LOI clubs are putting in a big effort. I can only speak from experience in that regard, I know that the lads in underage at Finn Harps put in a huge effort, and there's development sides at 14's and 16's alongside the 'elite' national league sides at 13, 15, 17 and 19.

It won't happen overnight, but if the huge change that has happened with underage structures in Ireland continues to develop further in the next ten years, we're on the right track, at least.

[tetsujin1979]

Birmingham have made the following announcement about their academy: https://bcfc.com/news/articles/2020/club-statement-academy-update/
Brexit is part of the decision

Additionally, the country’s decision to leave the European Union and the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic has forced the Club to revaluate our approach to player recruitment and youth development.

[tetsujin1979]

'I think we are in a bit of trouble' - Fears for the futures of top Irish talent if Brexit ruling is introduced: https://www.the42.ie/irish-football-brexit-2-5307749-Dec2020/

[pineapple stu]

The flip side is there was an article in When Saturday Comes this month about youth development at European leagues, and it noted that players who left their home country at 16 generally performed worse than those who waited until 21/22 before joining a foreign league.

Football in Ireland needs to recognise that this is the point of the LoI. And in fairness, the article recognises that to an extent. I think if the senior side goes backwards, Brexit is at most an indirect cause. The main cause will be our complete failure to develop a sustainable domestic league.

[Charlie Darwin]

We only have ourselves to blame for not having forged links with European football for the past 100 years. If the UK is the only market that's interested in our under-18 players then maybe the schoolboy clubs should ask themselves what they've failed to do.

[pineapple stu]

In fairness, for most of that time the idea of schoolboy clubs forging links with mainland European clubs would have been utterly ridiculous.

We do, however, have only ourselves to blame for not investing in our senior structure, for letting schoolboy clubs get as much say as they do, and for having the entire structure of Irish football being so utterly disorganised as to even have such separate clubs in schoolboy and senior football.

[samhaydenjr]

The flip side is there was an article in When Saturday Comes this month about youth development at European leagues, and it noted that players who left their home country at 16 generally performed worse than those who waited until 21/22 before joining a foreign league.

Football in Ireland needs to recognise that this is the point of the LoI. And in fairness, the article recognises that to an extent. I think if the senior side goes backwards, Brexit is at most an indirect cause. The main cause will be our complete failure to develop a sustainable domestic league.

I've mentioned it before, but a great example of this is the Croatian team that went all the way to the World Cup final - all but two played at least a season or two in the Croatian League, generally leaving in their early 20s - and the Croatian League isn't huge - it's average attendance is only about 5-700 higher than the LOI, albeit with a couple of big clubs with higher attendances

[pineapple stu]

Yep. And that's far from unusual. I've said before that we made a big deal about 8 of the Euro 2016 squad starting their senior careers domestically - but that was one of the worst rates of any squad in the tournament (only the North were lower). Most squads had at least 15 such players. Iceland had around 20 I think

[nigel-harps1954]

The difference in many other countries is not attendances, it's finances and financial supports.

Reports that SSE Airtricity are renewing their title sponsorship of the league for 2021, a reported €340k for the season.

Therein lies a large part of the problem. A hugely underfinanced league.

[seanfhear]

The difference in many other countries is not attendances, it's finances and financial supports.

Reports that SSE Airtricity are renewing their title sponsorship of the league for 2021, a reported €340k for the season.

Therein lies a large part of the problem. A hugely underfinanced league.
The League needs a sugar mommy / daddy.

[Keen2win]

The below shows what I think are some work being done at the top level of the FAI. Below all that Videogate stuff, looks like the FAI are introducing a new ticketing scheme - will this see a reduction in prices for certain parts of the stadium or improvements in season ticketing?

Barrett also declared himself satisfied with the Covid payments to the organisation, I think it's good that he is building good relationships with Government and this is part of that.

Finally, he made no comment about potential legal action against Delaney. What is going to happen there?

On an aside, is there any way to watch games on tactical cam, even PL ones?

https://www.the42.ie/fai-videogate-5314665-Jan2021/

[sbgawa]

'I think we are in a bit of trouble' - Fears for the futures of top Irish talent if Brexit ruling is introduced: https://www.the42.ie/irish-football-brexit-2-5307749-Dec2020/


You would think the 42 would look for quotes from more clubs then St Kevins and St Josephs (Bray) , the two biggest child sellers on the country

[Stuttgart88]

The League needs a sugar mommy / daddy.If I win Euromillions I'll buy the LOI, give each club EUR 2 million minimum for ground improvements. I'll buy myself onto the FAI Board maybe with EUR 30 million, buy Dalymount and turn it into a 30,000 all seater, and I should still have plenty left over for the family.

[tetsujin1979]

A discussion on the future of Irish football and the approach to grassroots football on Newstalk
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[tetsujin1979]

This is pretty damning
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[paul_oshea]

This is pretty damning
1407650067625000967

I cant see tweets in foot.ie, is it a tweet? What did it say?

[John83]

I cant see tweets in foot.ie, is it a tweet? What did it say?
"The FAI presentation yesterday included some comparisons with Cat 3 academies in UK (Fleetwood, Rochdale etc) which show how ill equipped LOI academies are for players in 16-18 age bracket in particular. Severe dearth of paid coaches and average training time pales in comparison"

[Eirambler]

The idea that the new restrictions on Irish players moving to the UK at 16 and 17 because of Brexit are somehow a positive thing has been well and truly debunked there. Ireland has nothing close to the setup required. This means that many young players' options are now either to move to an EU country and try to deal with the associated language and cultural barriers, or stay in Ireland and be developed through a substandard system until they're 18. Not good.

[sbgawa]

"The FAI presentation yesterday included some comparisons with Cat 3 academies in UK (Fleetwood, Rochdale etc) which show how ill equipped LOI academies are for players in 16-18 age bracket in particular. Severe dearth of paid coaches and average training time pales in comparison"


The point of the presentation was to secure funding to improve our academy structures.
Does anyone believe that with adequate resources / trainers available here our 15 or 16 year old kids would not be better off staying and completing their education here rather than going to the UK with a 95% to 99% chance of failure and having a ruined education and all the negatives of being branded a failure.
Are Irish coaches genetically inferior to coaches in the UK if given the same resources?

[John83]

I'm not sure we're in a good position to ask for money, nor do we have the structures in place to make good use of it even if we get it. The lack of a pyramid here is old news, but probably more of an impediment than ever.

I think Eirambler makes a good point though: young players will have much better outcomes in life if we can only approximately match the level of coaching they'd get in the UK. The UCD players often leave us with a degree. That's a safety net that's far more necessary than it was a generation ago, and one that should really become a standard for us.

[sbgawa]

The Government have indicated a willingness to invest in the Academy Structures provided it is ringfenced for this so the FAI are rightly looking to get the money to put structures in place.
Its unfair to say we dont have structures in place to make good use of the money when we have never had it to spend.
If someone suggested they were sending their 15 year old away to become an apprentice electrician in England you would think they were nuts, that's what we are doing with our footballing kids.

[pineapple stu]

I think it's only fair to acknowledge that other clubs also have scholarship schemes (Cork, Pat's and Bohs off the top of my head). It's why Jamie McGrath made his senior debut for Pat's rather than UCD (he got into Maynooth rather than UCD, having been with our U19s)

I was surprised to see that we were absolute dead last in that chart. Bad, sure, but dead last isn't good! Behind Liechtenstein, Malta and the Faroes for funding received. Coaching minutes bad, pro coaches bad.

But I suppose it ties into what we know - UEFA mandated these academies (which are a good idea), and the FAI passed it on to the clubs without a jot of support, and they're now effectively taking the guts of €100k per year away from the senior team and impacting our performance there as well.

Again - academies are good. But the way we've implemented it has been disastrous as per usual.

[Joxerbrowne]

People are saying lads having to stay here till 18 is a bad thing im not so sure about that as they will have more exposure to first team football which is a good thing imo.

[osarusan]

Number of Full Time Employee's per Academy

:mad::mad::mad:

[John83]

People are saying lads having to stay here till 18 is a bad thing im not so sure about that as they will have more exposure to first team football which is a good thing imo.
They won't. Even most talented 16 or 17 year olds aren't ready for men's football. Instead, they'll be stuck in under-resourced youth academies, training less than the lads who cross the Irish Sea under the supervision of part time coaches. If we did this right, they'd be better off here, but it's been clearly shown that we don't. Not yet, at least.

[osarusan]

They won't. Even most talented 16 or 17 year olds aren't ready for men's football. Instead, they'll be stuck in under-resourced youth academies, training less than the lads who cross the Irish Sea under the supervision of part time coaches. If we did this right, they'd be better off here, but it's been clearly shown that we don't. Not yet, at least.

This is it. It has often been said on here that we should keep young lads at home longer rather than them heading off to train and develop at somewhere like Brentford or Barnlsey or wherever, but the idea that the training and development that would take place at home is better than what they get in England isn't borne out by the reality at all.

[Joxerbrowne]

Thing is if someone like Troy Parrott stayed here at 16 he would of 100% been put into a first team squad and getting games at a team like Pats. That imo is much better for him in the long run than playing u18 football in England.

[sbgawa]

This is it. It has often been said on here that we should keep young lads at home longer rather than them heading off to train and develop at somewhere like Brentford or Barnlsey or wherever, but the idea that the training and development that would take place at home is better than what they get in England isn't borne out by the reality at all.

Isnt that the point though of the FAI looking for proper funding for the Academies so we can start doing things properly and stop exporting kids the vast majority of which end up branded as failures with lives messed up.
IF we invested the same money on our kids as we do in greyhounds we could do everything needed here

[CSAD]

One thing not mentioned here is the best 16-17 year olds tend to be on professional deals, I know the likes on Conroy,Mullins,Grehan,Mahon,O’Brien etc at Bohemians are and would therefore get what would be decent enough exposure. The worry here would be the youngsters who are still green and not seen as ready to be put on professional deals, he will they get the exposure required to develop?
Rovers appear to be different as despite what is being reported in that slide still seem able to develop good prospects.

[CSAD]

Isnt that the point though of the FAI looking for proper funding for the Academies so we can start doing things properly and stop exporting kids the vast majority of which end up branded as failures with lives messed up.
IF we invested the same money on our kids as we do in greyhounds we could do everything needed here

Still don’t get how so much money is put into greyhound racing…

[pineapple stu]

I presume it generates a profit through betting or sales of greyhounds or something, but yeah it's a strange one...

Not the most ethical of sports either. Starting to be banned in places in America for example because of what the dogs go through just to get one decent greyhound.

[seanfhear]

I presume it generates a profit through betting or sales of greyhounds or something, but yeah it's a strange one...

Not the most ethical of sports either. Starting to be banned in places in America for example because of what the dogs go through just to get one decent greyhound.
Maybe thats what happens to some of the Soccer Kids as well !

[ForzaForth]

Greyhound sector claims over 5,000 jobs excluding 7,000 owners according to the, eh, Jim Power Report.

THE ECONOMIC AND FINANCIAL SIGNIFICANCE OF THE IRISH GREYHOUND INDUSTRY november 2017 (grireland.ie) (https://www.grireland.ie/globalassets/power-report-2018/power-report---the-economic--financial-significance-of-the-irish-greyhound-industry---november-2017.pdf)

[tetsujin1979]

Interview with the director of football at St Kevin's Boys on the42: https://www.the42.ie/ken-donohoe-interview-5473682-Jun2021/

[Snapshot]

Interview with the director of football at St Kevin's Boys on the42: https://www.the42.ie/ken-donohoe-interview-5473682-Jun2021/
Compelling read. Obstacles, self-interest and narrow-mindedness. The following was in BBC Sport. It highlights good development at Swansea against a backdrop of tragedy and despair. I hope it adds something.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/57174111

[tetsujin1979]

Why Brexit will hit young Irish soccer players joining UK clubs: https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2021/0901/1244074-brexit-republic-of-ireland-soccer-players-uk-eu-transfer/

[Olé Olé]

Sure, but when we do cap them, then it's totally counter-productive to make a reference to what that cap does. We've got to be above that.



Sure. And maybe we don't exploit his talents in the way Villa did. Maybe we shoe-horn him - f*ck it, I'm not going down this road - he's not ours, he's gone.
Whatever about 2gers & 3gers, with respect to our own lads who were born here and families have remained here, are part of the local communities, we really need to rise above the mentality that they might "defect". If a kid talks about his parish, his old coaches - name-checking them in an interview - with his family still in that community, he's not going anywhere. If a kid has moved from club to club at schoolboy level, his family moves at the first opportunity, and then he trades clubs every year again in that new country - that there is a pragmatist, and international football has f-all meaning to a player like that. You'll have a selfish player that you can have zero guarantees about going forward.

Frankly I find it insulting to the kids and their families who might not be ethnically 100% Irish, but are as committed as those who are. It's an insult to their own backgrounds, to their local clubs and coaches, and to us as well. I'm not necessarily throwing punches at you specifically backs, but this is a narrative that's almost out of control on social media - cap him, tie him down - it's a moveable feast with FIFA, and they'll continue to change goalposts as they see fit, or as money sees fit.
Just look at the current 17s squad. On name alone - without knowing much about them - there's maybe 10 that have dual heritage at least. That's the type of ratio that we'll be looking at for years to come.



I think this is as fair a place as any to pick up Kingdom's post above which I couldn't agree any more with. Given that some of our committed young players don't come from two Irish players which is reflective of the changing and changed Ireland, if we keep referring to lads who are eligible for other countries with a question mark or a suspicion then we are going nowhere fast. Kevin Zefi's thread has the same couple of suggestions in there because his parents are Albanian.

Evan Ferguson's UK qualification was just handy to circumvent Brexit was the tone there. Zefi moving to Italy could impact him playing for Ireland. And we need to tie down Omobamidele.

Not having a go at any posters but I just want to highlight the dangers here. There's another forum around where you will some pretty daft and unfair speculation about a lot of dual qualified lads that were born and grew up in Ireland.

[passinginterest]

Reading through the early pages of this thread and the prospects under 21 thread you can almost pinpoint the time our young players got left behind and our domestic coaching system and method of shipping player to England fell apart. The prospects thread was basically 2009-2011 and the crop of players that came through there are effectively the last group to make the breakthrough. This thread started around 2012 and you can see immediately how the SFAI and the South Dublin League in particular are welded to the old ways, while others are pushing to try and implement small sided games, modern coaching and a proper development pathway. The generation starting to come through now, the 18/19/20 year olds are the first ones really exposed to the changes, and most of them would have probably still spent the early formative years in an old school set up. It's only the 13/14 year olds today that are going to have mainly been exposed to modern coaching throughout their developmental years and we won't see them breaking through for another 6-10 years. It further exposes the massive rebuild facing the national team. Other nations have done it, notably the likes of Belgium who, in one of the threads, were being suggested as a soft touch 3rd seed to draw in a qualifying campaign!

[CSAD]

Reading through the early pages of this thread and the prospects under 21 thread you can almost pinpoint the time our young players got left behind and our domestic coaching system and method of shipping player to England fell apart. The prospects thread was basically 2009-2011 and the crop of players that came through there are effectively the last group to make the breakthrough. This thread started around 2012 and you can see immediately how the SFAI and the South Dublin League in particular are welded to the old ways, while others are pushing to try and implement small sided games, modern coaching and a proper development pathway. The generation starting to come through now, the 18/19/20 year olds are the first ones really exposed to the changes, and most of them would have probably still spent the early formative years in an old school set up. It's only the 13/14 year olds today that are going to have mainly been exposed to modern coaching throughout their developmental years and we won't see them breaking through for another 6-10 years. It further exposes the massive rebuild facing the national team. Other nations have done it, notably the likes of Belgium who, in one of the threads, were being suggested as a soft touch 3rd seed to draw in a qualifying campaign!

It’s no coincidence that we have a decent batch of 29+ years olds and a very promising batch of 19-20-21 years and very little in between. That is really hurting us now because that middle group should be driving the team forward. By Euro 2024 most of that 19-20-21 year group will be potentially part of the middle group and hopefully that makes us a competitive team by that point.

[John83]

It’s no coincidence that we have a decent batch of 29+ years olds and a very promising batch of 19-20-21 years and very little in between. That is really hurting us now because that middle group should be driving the team forward. By Euro 2024 most of that 19-20-21 year group will be potentially part of the middle group and hopefully that makes us a competitive team by that point.
I think that's too early; they'll be 22-24 at the tournament, sure, but we need to qualify first, and some of the older lads will be in decline by then - Coleman will be 35 for example. Really, we need that generation to mature and a second generation behind them to come through before we can look like a real team again.

[CSAD]

I think that's too early; they'll be 22-24 at the tournament, sure, but we need to qualify first, and some of the older lads will be in decline by then - Coleman will be 35 for example. Really, we need that generation to mature and a second generation behind them to come through before we can look like a real team again.

It’ll be on the early side without question but then again it’s the Euros so we should still atleast have a solid shot on making that tournament provided we get a decent draw considering 24 teams qualify. It’ll probably be 2026 by the time we start seeing the team really hitting their straps.