Trap Out and/or Delaney Out

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hmm, you want to take up that bet then? Trap has proved himself far too intransigent and resistant to change for us to have much hope. That and the small matter of largely mediocre players.

Admire the optimism, but don't remotely share it. At this stage I'd settle for a close 3rd. Whoever does get second regardless, will be amazed if they negotiate the play-offs successfully.

[DeLorean]

Noelys Guitar and ArdeeBhoy in... 'Battle of the Extremists'

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hardly. It's just misplaced optimism on the evidence of what we've seen so far in this campaign...

[BonnieShels]

Jesus, Noely's extreme optimism even scared off mypost.

[Yard of Pace]

I used to love reading about the Charlton era lads traveling to games on the team bus with rebel songs being blasted out on the ghetto blaster. The team had an identity and a sense of purpose and felt confident playing everyone. I think under Trap they're probably overly respectful of everyone and I think probably the same under Kerr.

Gas that that was loved by the public then (and now) and promoted and encouraged by an Englishman, whereas now people seem to cringe at Robbie singing rebel songs in pubs or McLean's public displays of his Nationalism. Which is a shame, I think.

[Crosby87]

Why are Myposts posts always deleted?

[Noelys Guitar]

I wanted Trap gone a long time ago. The worst game for me (before the Euro finals)was the Slovakia game away when we drew 1-1. We settled for a draw against mediocre team missing all of their top players. The lack of ambition and the continuing mistakes by players like Given and Whelan was really ****ing me off. The Euro shambles followed and then the hammering by Germany should have seen Trap out the door. But we all know what transpired. Trap gets a new lease of Irish managerial life. Starts playing most of our best players. Wilson, Coleman, McCarthy, Long and McClean are all reasonable players. And we have a real go in two games against Sweden and Austria. In fact we were the better team in both games. And there is nothing on the horizon that suggests we won't continue to be better than Sweden and Austria come the games later in the year. If we continue to play with the same energy/invention we showed in the last two games then we can get the runner up spot.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Cor, 'energy/invention' is stretching it. Better and some limited signs for optimism is as much positive gloss as I can put on there.

[Noelys Guitar]

Cor, 'energy/invention' is stretching it. Better and some limited signs for optimism is as much positive gloss as I can put on there.
Remember when I told you Armenia would beat Slovakia AB. They actually went on to hammer them. Sweden are not a good enough team to get 3 points in Kazakhstan.

[mypost]

If we do qualify (as I expect) then what happens to Trapatonni?

He will get a new contract.


I've been thinking about this in the last few days, and was thinking about Trap saying we have no right to expect to compete against Germany and his latest post Austria comment about "not being Germany, not being England". Those two comments are, for me, probably the most irritating and negative thing that he's done thus far. I thought they were disgraceful and stupid things to say. It got me thinking of how we used to play the bigger teams with no fear, even if we've Tommy Coyne up-front against Italy, or a Blackburn Rovers sub on the wing against Holland.

What of those "disgraceful and stupid things" are wrong?

Against Holland, we had Bonner, McGrath, Keane, Houghton, Aldo. We don't have that quality today, and by rights we should be fighting it out for 4th spot, rather than going to tournaments and holding our own in the fight for playoff places, where Trap has got us.


It's just misplaced optimism on the evidence of what we've seen so far in this campaign...

On the "evidence" so far, we were apparantly going to struggle to beat the puffins and get destroyed 0-5 in Sweden, whereas the evidence that counts is on the table.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Remember when I told you Armenia would beat Slovakia AB. They actually went on to hammer them. Sweden are not a good enough team to get 3 points in Kazakhstan.

Which is all fine and dandy assuming if we are 'good' enough to beat Sweden & Austria. Plus then even make the play-off's and get a fortunate draw.
That's rather too many 'ifs'...


He will get a new contract.
By which time he'd be 76-77, which without being ageist doesn't seem like an ideal given the demands of the job?


On the "evidence" so far, we were apparantly going to struggle to beat the puffins and get destroyed 0-5 in Sweden, whereas the evidence that counts is on the table.
As long as we beat the Faroes, our result is irrelevant and whilst not losing to Sweden is creditable, I see precious little evidence of beating anyone higher-ranked at home with this manager's approach/tactics.

[paul_oshea]

I've really enjoyed our last two games. We created some excellent scoring chances in both games and I still expect us to just about get second place (Sweden will struggle to beat Kaz away). If we do qualify (as I expect) then what happens to Trapatonni? There are a few scenarios whereby Trapatonni could still be in charge come Euro 2016 Qualifying. Qualifying for the WC and then getting out of the group would change everything. Might look like a long, long shot viewing this from today but the WC usually has 'easier' groups then the Euros. Delaney will go with the flow of course.

Slovakia are not as good as Sweden and they didn't have a Ibrahimovic who can turn the game on its head, Armenia play a lot better football than the Kazakhs, and Sweden play them when they are towards the end of the qualifying campaign with nothing to play for. Armenia were always in the hunt up to their game against us. Too many factors that don't compare favourably with that game between Armenia and Slovakia. Sweden will win in Kazakhstan - just. Just like they did in the faroes.

[DeLorean]

I've been thinking about this in the last few days, and was thinking about Trap saying we have no right to expect to compete against Germany and his latest post Austria comment about "not being Germany, not being England". Those two comments are, for me, probably the most irritating and negative thing that he's done thus far. I thought they were disgraceful and stupid things to say. It got me thinking of how we used to play the bigger teams with no fear, even if we've Tommy Coyne up-front against Italy, or a Blackburn Rovers sub on the wing against Holland.

I'm not saying Ireland need some madman in charge who just talks up the players, but I do think our next manager needs to have a little bit of that in him. Certainly more than Trap does anyway.

I know what you're saying and I even typed something kind of similar after hearing an interview with Keith Andrews some time back. He had basically said that if they played Germany again in the morning the chances would be pretty high that we'd get hammered again. True as it may be it was fairly depressing to hear an established player admitting it. The same guy had given us a chance of winning the Euros eight or nine months earlier!

I don't think that kind of stuff counts for too much though. We have got results in Italy, Bulgaria, France, Russia, Slovakia and Sweden under his management, so clearly the players aren't suffering too much from the 'inferiority complex' some of his comments imply. Who knows, maybe he even does it as a kind of reverse psychology motivating tool!

[Stuttgart88]

Let's look at the context of his "we're not Germany" remarks. He was saying that we have no right to be expecting to beat Austria. I personally think we have every right to be disappointed not beating an Austria team that was there for the taking and largely because of selections, tactical approach and use of the bench. I don't care if Kevin Doyle hadn't been playing well for Wolves. He's a different class to Sammon, as is Walters (and even Leon Best), and Trap's judgment in that regard was dreadful in my opinion.


Comparing us (or not) to Germany was daft and irrelevant, because we all know they're a cut above what we can even dream of being like. His comments were a bogus tactic of deflection.

I empathise with Owls Fan saying be careful of wishing Trap out as what comes in may be worse. On balance I disagree and quite frankly I'll be happy with hoofball if it seems to be the best approach. I think this has been proven not to be the case. (This last bit was prompted by the Pulis / purist debate just above). If we have a knack of grinding out ugly narrow wins over our group rivals at home I'll take ugly all day long.

I don't agree with Noely about the Austria game. I thought we approached the Austria game all wrong and we went to pieces after a good spell early in the second half.

[Crosby87]

Thank Goodness we are not German. Who would want to be German, punctuality aside?

[shakermaker1982]

Let's look at the context of his "we're not Germany" remarks. He was saying that we have no right to be expecting to beat Austria. I personally think we have every right to be disappointed not beating an Austria team that was there for the taking and largely because of selections, tactical approach and use of the bench. I don't care if Kevin Doyle hadn't been playing well for Wolves. He's a different class to Sammon, as is Walters (and even Leon Best), and Trap's judgment in that regard was dreadful in my opinion.


Comparing us (or not) to Germany was daft and irrelevant, because we all know they're a cut above what we can even dream of being like. His comments were a bogus tactic of deflection.

I empathise with Owls Fan saying be careful of wishing Trap out as what comes in may be worse. On balance I disagree and quite frankly I'll be happy with hoofball if it seems to be the best approach. I think this has been proven not to be the case. (This last bit was prompted by the Pulis / purist debate just above). If we have a knack of grinding out ugly narrow wins over our group rivals at home I'll take ugly all day long.

I don't agree with Noely about the Austria game. I thought we approached the Austria game all wrong and we went to pieces after a good spell early in the second half.

When the Trap was spouting that nonsense about not being Germany I wish a journalist shouted out 'what about Montenegro?'. Tiny country and top a group containing England, Ukraine and Poland.

[Stuttgart88]

Thank Goodness we are not German. Who would want to be German, punctuality aside?Great football league, prospoperous country, well-educated, provides jobs for its young, has great towns and cities, great beer, has its own ski resorts, they make great cars, great institutional structures, great appreciation of the long-term rather than a "get rich quick and let the devil take the hindmost" approach, Claudia Schaeffer.

I think being born German wouldn't be the worst random draw outcome.

[DeLorean]

When the Trap was spouting that nonsense about not being Germany I wish a journalist shouted out 'what about Montenegro?'. Tiny country and top a group containing England, Ukraine and Poland.

To which Trap could reply... "Montenegro?? I didn't notice them at the Euros"

By the way, I don't think Trap was saying we can't expect to beat Austria as we are not Germany, England, etc. He was responding (straight after a galling end to a match) to a stupid question by TO'D as to whether or not he would now resign because we didn't beat Austria. I think he was referring to the fact that we are still in contention for second and we're never going to be able to waltz through groups with no set backs like Germany can.

[Stuttgart88]

Fair response re-TOD alright even though I still think it contained a degree of defeatism, which would be consistent with his broad approach to managing us and how he sets us up.

[paul_oshea]

Great football league, prospoperous country, well-educated, provides jobs for its young, has great towns and cities, great beer, has its own ski resorts, they make great cars, great institutional structures, great appreciation of the long-term rather than a "get rich quick and let the devil take the hindmost" approach, Claudia Schaeffer.

I think being born German wouldn't be the worst random draw outcome.

You've shown your age right there stutts.

Ill now show mine. Diane Kruger.

[DeLorean]

To the totty (http://foot.ie/threads/22183-NSFW-Celeb-Totty-%28DON-T-QUOTE-PICS%29?p=1678973&viewfull=1#post1678973) thread!!!

[mypost]

By which time he'd be 76-77, which without being ageist doesn't seem like an ideal given the demands of the job?

You would have to ask him how ideal it is. To me, he seems to be as committed to the job as he was when he started.


I wanted Trap gone a long time ago. The worst game for me (before the Euro finals)was the Slovakia game away when we drew 1-1. We settled for a draw against mediocre team missing all of their top players. The lack of ambition and the continuing mistakes by players like Given and Whelan was really ****ing me off. The Euro shambles followed and then the hammering by Germany should have seen Trap out the door.

The result by Germany came as a result of half a team unavailable and going 4-4-2 after half time. The Euro "shambles" was losing to both finalists that nobody else, Germany included could get past either. The result in Slovakia was a vital point against a "mediocre" side who had just beaten Russia and Italy weeks before. Without it, there would have been no Euros across the border for us to look forward to.


When Trap was spouting about not being Germany I wish a journalist shouted out 'what about Montenegro?'

All very well, but when the time came for the crunch, they lost 3-0 to Czech Republic in the playoff for Euro 2012. We beat Estonia 5-1. There's the difference.

[paul_oshea]

Ya that's the only difference, nothing to do with the fact that czech team were far better than the Estonian team we faced. You compare black with white as though they are the same thing.

[Crosby87]

Aren't they the same thing?
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRvOWxy0yxCyon4Hj_T0kGqYlLWJt1O7 HC3JHsm4ygNowlYZKSy

[DeLorean]

It's not comparing like for like to be fair.

That said, I wouldn't rate Ukraine or Poland any higher than Slovakia or Bulgaria who we had to finish ahead of in the last two campaigns and Germany are on another planet to England, who will probably still finish ahead of Montenegro if they can beat them at Wembley.

[Wolfman]

The result by Germany came as a result of half a team unavailable and going 4-4-2 after half time. The Euro "shambles" was losing to both finalists that nobody else, Germany included could get past either. The result in Slovakia was a vital point against a "mediocre" side who had just beaten Russia and Italy weeks before. Without it, there would have been no Euros across the border for us to look forward to.

All very well, but when the time came for the crunch, they lost 3-0 to Czech Republic in the playoff for Euro 2012. We beat Estonia 5-1. There's the difference.
Heard of positive spin but this is ridiculous. You're not comparing like with like.

[jbyrne]

When the Trap was spouting that nonsense about not being Germany I wish a journalist shouted out 'what about Montenegro?'. Tiny country and top a group containing England, Ukraine and Poland.

we were the Montenegro of europe before punching well above our weight. there is always one or two but at the end of qualifying its the usual suspects that qualify with the one or two exceptions from time to time.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Thank Goodness we are not German. Who would want to be German, punctuality aside?

Decent beer, food and an opposite sex who don't typically look like the back end of a heifer...
:)

Oh and what Stutts said.

[youngirish]

The Euro "shambles" was losing to both finalists that nobody else, Germany included could get past either.
- We also lost to Croatia.
- We had an aggregate score of 9 goals against and 1 for in all games.
- We were massively outplayed by everyone we encountered.
- We were by far the poorest team in the compettition.
- We let Paul Green come onto the pitch in Irish colours in front of a television audience of several hundred million people.

Other than that we had a good tournament. Therefore the double quotes are entirely justified.

[OwlsFan]

- We also lost to Croatia.
- We had an aggregate score of 9 goals against and 1 for in all games.
- We were massively outplayed by everyone we encountered.
- We were by far the poorest team in the compettition.
- We let Paul Green come onto the pitch in Irish colours in front of a television audience of several hundred million people.

Other than that we had a good tournament. Therefore the double quotes are entirely justified.

I don't know what game you were watching, but I didn't see us being "massively outplayed" by Croatia. With a decent run of the ball I think we could have achieved a draw out in that game for reasons I won't bore everyone again with. The two finalists and Croatia. Croatia who have not ended a calendar year outside the top 10 of Fifa's rankings since 2006 and who had not lost any of their four opening matches at a European Championship.

Yes, we were the poorest team results wise in the competition results wise but I wonder how the other lowest ranked side would have got on in our group.

Paul Green - the butt of jokes of many anti-Trap activists. How did you think he got on against Sweden recently? He is a workman like Championship player, like some of our other squad members, and does not deserve the opprobrium heaped upon him

[mypost]

Saying Austria had little to offer in the 2nd half, is saying we had less than little.

If we performed in an away game like Austria did in the 2nd half, the performance would be rightly applauded and the equaliser seen as deserved.

I don't remember Austria having many clearcut opportunities until they scored. We defended very well until the deflection. That's what it ultimately required to get their result.

It's amazing that so many people from this part of the world equate good football to keeping possession and creating chances, without recognising that good defending is as important to getting good results. Which is why Ireland have lost just 3 qualifying games in the past 5 years.


- We also lost to Croatia.
- We had an aggregate score of 9 goals against and 1 for in all games.
- We were massively outplayed by everyone we encountered.
- We were by far the poorest team in the compettition.
- We let Paul Green come onto the pitch in Irish colours in front of a television audience of several hundred million people.

Other than that we had a good tournament. Therefore the double quotes are entirely justified.

It was very important for you to repeat the goal difference of the weakest of the bottom seeds in the strongest group. Two thirds of which came against the finalists that despite our performances, nobody else with much better players than Paul Green available, got past either.

[DannyInvincible]

I don't remember Austria having many clearcut opportunities until they scored. We defended very well until the deflection. That's what it ultimately required to get their result.

You must be forgetting their first goal then.


It's amazing that so many people from this part of the world equate good football to keeping possession and creating chances, without recognising that good defending is as important to getting good results. Which is why Ireland have lost just 3 qualifying games in the past 5 years.

Avoiding losses and defending admirably is all well and good (so long as you can do it beyond the 92nd minute and up until the final whistle goes), but throwing away a potential victory that was there to be wrapped up isn't something to celebrate or laud as a good result, all things considered. Accepting the manner by which we attempted to see out the Austria game is indicative of a submissive, defeatist attitude. Have we resigned ourselves to aiming for simply avoiding defeat? There are three points on offer per game; not just the one.

[mypost]

You must be forgetting their first goal then.

I think most people did in fairness. All the inquest is into what happened late on, and little else.


Avoiding losses and defending admirably is all well and good (so long as you can do it beyond the 92nd minute and up until the final whistle goes)

We usually do these days. It's not long ago since we went 15 months unbeaten, and the defence was setting clean sheet records. There was no credit given for it however.


throwing away a potential victory that was there to be wrapped up isn't something to celebrate or laud as a good result.

We tried to see the game out, it's not an unreasonable thing to do. Other Irish coaches have tried it in the past, others will in the future. We would have if the deflection didn't go in. Of course there would have been no credit for getting the three points either, with all the pre-Sweden arguments ready to be whinged about again.


Have we resigned ourselves to aiming for simply avoiding defeat? There are three points on offer; not just one.

It's a league campaign decided on what results you get, not what games you win. We are level with the other playoff contenders with 5 games remaining. It's not the time for abandoning the campaign or making knee-jerk decisions.

[back of the net]

Passed of the park the first 20-25 mins of the game , followed by looking like lost sheep for the final 20 mins of the game..............................shocking stuff

[Stuttgart88]

I don't think Paul Green deserves to be on the receiving end of so much ridicule, and I think that view has largely been accepted here for a while.

wrt Croatia I think we were massively outplayed by Croatia for large parts of the game and at the same time with a decent run of the ball we'd have drawn it!

And btw, Austria were getting progressively closer before they scored. The goal came as no surprise to anyone sitting around me. They fully deserved to equalise. When we needed an injection of momentum from the bench, none came.

[Stuttgart88]

It's not long ago since we went 15 months unbeaten, and the defence was setting clean sheet records. There was no credit given for it however.There was plenty of credit given for it, but at the same time people like me - and I was still offering support for Trap at the time - warned that it was a false reflection because of bad misses by opponents (e.g., Kenny Miller), a penalty miss in Macedonia and various other chances where we were sloppy and didn't get punished.

[back of the net]

I don't think Paul Green deserves to be on the receiving end of so much ridicule, and I think that view has largely been accepted here for a while.

wrt Croatia I think we were massively outplayed by Croatia for large parts of the game and at the same time with a decent run of the ball we'd have drawn it!

And btw, Austria were getting progressively closer before they scored. The goal came as no surprise to anyone sitting around me. They fully deserved to equalise. When we needed an injection of momentum from the bench, none came.


Agree with all of the above.


Re the long unbeaten spell....outplayed by macedonia (at home) for large parts of the game, same to be said for the czech rep(friendly) , Bosnia (friendly) , Estonia (away) , slovakia (home) , armenia (home) ,destroyed by russia( away) ....kudos has to be given for getting the results most definitely .......... BUT when you dont learn or take anything away from those games and been outplayed then results like the euros happen, the kazahstan fluke victory , the germany spanking, and throwing away the win against austria ..............utterly shambolic

[mypost]

Austria were getting progressively closer before they scored. The goal came as no surprise to anyone sitting around me. They fully deserved to equalise. When we needed an injection of momentum from the bench, none came.

We didn't need momentum, we just needed to see the game out. Austria had no more than half chances at best. So they ran out of options, and took a 20-30 yard deflected potshot with a minute left to stop us. That won't happen every game.


There was plenty of credit given for it, but at the same time people like me

There was no credit for it whatsoever, because as your and the post above shows, it was all about how lucky and "outplayed" we were.

[Stuttgart88]

Not from me it wasn't. I was saying at the time that it was misleading. How can you give credit to a defence for keeping a clean sheet when a guy hits the bar with a penalty, for example? O'Shea was lucky not to have given another penalty away in the same game too. He was playing like he was drunk. It's like Arsenal getting credit for their resilience against WBA, despite shipping 3 gilt-edged chances in the last 10 minutes! If one of them had gone in it'd have been "same old fragile Arsenal".

also, here's a simple law of physics. If you're going backwards at an increasing rate and you add some forward momentum, you go backwards at a slower rate. The best thing to do to see the game out was to arrest the retreat. Any one of a number of substitutions might have done that. The inactivity and then the subsequent substitution did nothing of the sort.

If the whistle had gone at 2-1 my reaction would have been a mix of delight and relief. I was very anxious in that last ten minutes. It just looked like one of those games where you could tell that a goal was on the cards even if there hadn't been a clear-cut chance to do so. Goals aren't always preceded by clear-cut chances. There's no rule that says you can only score if you have been very close just beforehand. The unfolding of play made it clear we were asking for trouble and we got it.

[SkStu]

There was no credit for it whatsoever, because as your and the post above shows, it was all about how lucky and "outplayed" we were.

Ah would ye give over FFS. Even I changed my tune for a few months and thought we could qualify from our Euro group as a result. Plenty of credit was given, games just continued to be analysed. And as it turned out the people who felt the run to be a bit "Emporers New Clothes"-ish were damn right.

[Closed Account 2]

Not from me it wasn't. I was saying at the time that it was misleading. How can you give credit to a defence for keeping a clean sheet when a guy hits the bar with a penalty, for example? O'Shea was lucky not to have given another penalty away in the same game too. He was playing like he was drunk. It's like Arsenal getting credit for their resilience against WBA, despite shipping 3 gilt-edged chances in the last 10 minutes! If one of them had gone in it'd have been "same old fragile Arsenal".

I dunno about that, maybe in 1-2 matches yes there are elements of luck but to go that many games undefeated deserves credit. Otherwise you can pick holes based on luck in any winning run. When Spain won the World Cup they were 1-0 up vs Honduras when Villa slapped Izaguirre and could easily have been sent off, they were also outplayed for large parts of their final group game vs Chile even after Chile had suffered a very dubious sending off. They held on for a 2-1 win a defeat would have seen them eliminated and even a draw would have seen them finish 2nd and face Brazil. Talking of the Macedonian fluffing the penalty, well you could point to Oscar Cardozo doing the same vs Spain at the World Cup (when the game was 0-0). At the end of the day you can pick out moments in a run of games when luck or inefficient opposition is a factor, but for any team to go on a long unbeaten run is worthy of praise.


If the whistle had gone at 2-1 my reaction would have been a mix of delight and relief. I was very anxious in that last ten minutes. It just looked like one of those games where you could tell that a goal was on the cards even if there hadn't been a clear-cut chance to do so. Goals aren't always preceded by clear-cut chances. There's no rule that says you can only score if you have been very close just beforehand. The unfolding of play made it clear we were asking for trouble and we got it.

My reaction would have been the same. But then my reaction was delight and relief when we held on for 1-0 against Italy and 0-0 against Norway in USA 94, when we held onto the 1-0 at home Vs Holland (and Holland that day put us under far more pressure than Austria last month, at one stage Overmars, Kluivert, van Nistelrooy, Hasselbaink and van Hooijdonk were all on the pitch). Even after the play-off in Tehran there was more of a sense of delight and relief rather than admiration at the teams resolve. I agree that a braver substitution might have allowed us to win, but that criticism can be levelled at most Irish national team managers post Charlton (Kerr had the team retreat into a shell away in Switzerland after Morrison scored and also in the Israeli matches, McCarthy took off Keane (for Keith O'Neill) and then took off Marc Kennedy (for an unfit Matt Holland) against Macedonia before the Stavrevski nightmare in Skopje) I wouldnt even bring up Staunton as it would be unfair on him since he obviously didn't have the ability to manage at any level.

[Stuttgart88]

Great response, very well crafted and I don't disagree with what you've presented, but: words are words, gut feelings are gut feelings. My gut feeling during the undefeated run and clean sheets was that whilst it told a story of us being a hard team to beat (true) it also flattered us to a degree that was of some concern. I was rabidly against the Indo agenda of it all being down to luck. My gut feeling - worth some attention given I've been avidly following football for 35 years - was that we were the architects of our own downfall against Austria. I don't see Giants Stadium and Austria as being comparable, I'm afraid.

Anyone who has been unfortunate enough to regularly follow my posts here down the years will recall my anger at blowing it away to Israel and playing like gimps in Switzerland. My point was that if we developed a culture of winning narrow away games that that would continue. So to some extent the roots of our lack of clinicism predates Trap. By the same token our inability to win key home games has become a problem that can be very justifiably pointed at Trap. Even under Eoin Hand I felt that we could win any game in Dublin. Now I only feel the same if we're playing a 4th or 5th seed.

[bennocelt]

I dunno about that, maybe in 1-2 matches yes there are elements of luck but to go that many games undefeated deserves credit. Otherwise you can pick holes based on luck in any winning run. When Spain won the World Cup they were 1-0 up vs Honduras when Villa slapped Izaguirre and could easily have been sent off, they were also outplayed for large parts of their final group game vs Chile even after Chile had suffered a very dubious sending off. They held on for a 2-1 win a defeat would have seen them eliminated and even a draw would have seen them finish 2nd and face Brazil. Talking of the Macedonian fluffing the penalty, well you could point to Oscar Cardozo doing the same vs Spain at the World Cup (when the game was 0-0). At the end of the day you can pick out moments in a run of games when luck or inefficient opposition is a factor, but for any team to go on a long unbeaten run is worthy of praise.



But to be fair Edmundo I dont think one could argue that Spain were not the best team in that world cup, by a long distance IMHO. Ireland look like muck at the moment, whatever about results against rubbish teams

[Stuttgart88]

Ireland look like muck at the moment, whatever about results against rubbish teamsThe worst thing for me was that we looked good against Sweden and I really thought we'd turned a corner with new blood, but -largely dowbn to Trap's selections and appraoch to the game - we looked like muck for large parts of the Austria game. Trap just looked like he disregarded the positives of Stockholm.

[Bungle]

Loyalty is generally not a bad quality in football supporters. I can totally understand Liverpool fans believing Kenny should have got another season or Arsenal supporters believing that Wenger can build another great Arsenal team. Both are proper football men who have delivered great success to their respective clubs.

However, there is blind loyalty to Trap from some people here and on other sites. Trap is a mercenary plain and simple. He may still want to win and I've no doubt that he would love his managerial swansong to be in Brazil, but how many on here really believe that Trap has given 100% commitment to our national team. He has only started going to games regularly after the 6-1 drubbing at the hands of the Germans. Additionally, his selection of players is frustrating, annoying and laughable all rolled in one. For example, Wilson, Coleman and McCarthy should all be very seasoned internationals by now. All three have really begun to shine for us, but the majority of posters on here have been calling for them for years. In both Coleman and McCarthy, there are signs that both can reach the very top of professional football. Then there is the communication issues. Trap makes Don Givens seem like the Dalai Lama.

Trap's comments after the Austria game were demeaning and insulting to anyone involved or anyone who cares about Irish football. Yes, we aren't a country with the tradition of Germany, but we are a country that has produced many great players and competed at international tournaments. Essentially Trap was saying "We are Ireland, a mediocre nation. We don't deserve to expect to be able to compete at the top level. What do you expect me to do?" Hardly inspiring stuff from him and I'm sure it would have been heard loud and clear by the players. The thing is we have alot of quality players in that team, many of them young. We have it in our locker to be better than an average mediocre side.

Anyhow, I can't understand the loyalty to a mercenary like Trap. Maybe, I just expect more from Irish footballers and think that they and the football public deserve better than this regime.

[Closed Account 2]

But to be fair Edmundo I dont think one could argue that Spain were not the best team in that world cup, by a long distance IMHO. Ireland look like muck at the moment, whatever about results against rubbish teams
Yeah, but my point was any unbeaten run of many games deserves credit and it's a bit harsh to pick holes in our run under Trap since you could pick similar holes in any similar run. I used Spain at the World Cup as an example since they were probably the best team in the tournament and they won it, yet you can pick out matches (or sections of matches) within their run to the final where they were lucky or the opposition messed up. Spain are obviously a better team than us, but if holes are picked in our unbeaten run then holes can be picked in Spain's run, or any team's run for that matter.

I agree that we are not as dominant at home as I would like under Trap, but his remit is to get us into the top two of our qualification groups (which is normally at least a play-off place) so far he's done this (2010 and 2012) and we are still in with a reasonable (but not great) chance of this now. We've dropped points at home to Germany and Austria, the former was if we're honest expected and hopefully on its own wont impact us that much, Austria have lost home to Germany and there is a good chance Sweden will. The 2-2 was dissapointing, but on the other hand we're "up" on points compared to Austria vis-a-vis Kazakhstan (they drew in Astana). There is still a lot to play for and I wouldnt write off our chances of second just yet, although we cannot afford a defeat against either of them now and will probably need 4 points from the double header in September. Can we get anyone else in who could give us more of a chance now in the remaining 4 games? I dont see anyone realistically. Trap will be gone by July 2014 at the very latest, irrespective of if we make it to the WC or not. The new manager will start afresh for France 2014, 23 teams can qualify (France are the 24th) so if you put that into these qualifiers it would mean 1st and 2nd place getting to the Euros automatically and also the best 3rd place, with the other eight 3rd having a playoff. In every qualification in the modern era we've finished at least 3rd (except under Kerr for WC 2006) so any new manager should be able to do that at the bare minimum.

[OwlsFan]

Loyalty is generally not a bad quality in football supporters. I can totally understand Liverpool fans believing Kenny should have got another season or Arsenal supporters believing that Wenger can build another great Arsenal team. Both are proper football men who have delivered great success to their respective clubs.

However, there is blind loyalty to Trap from some people here and on other sites. Trap is a mercenary plain and simple. He may still want to win and I've no doubt that he would love his managerial swansong to be in Brazil, but how many on here really believe that Trap has given 100% commitment to our national team. He has only started going to games regularly after the 6-1 drubbing at the hands of the Germans. Additionally, his selection of players is frustrating, annoying and laughable all rolled in one. For example, Wilson, Coleman and McCarthy should all be very seasoned internationals by now. All three have really begun to shine for us, but the majority of posters on here have been calling for them for years. In both Coleman and McCarthy, there are signs that both can reach the very top of professional football. Then there is the communication issues. Trap makes Don Givens seem like the Dalai Lama.

Trap's comments after the Austria game were demeaning and insulting to anyone involved or anyone who cares about Irish football. Yes, we aren't a country with the tradition of Germany, but we are a country that has produced many great players and competed at international tournaments. Essentially Trap was saying "We are Ireland, a mediocre nation. We don't deserve to expect to be able to compete at the top level. What do you expect me to do?" Hardly inspiring stuff from him and I'm sure it would have been heard loud and clear by the players. The thing is we have alot of quality players in that team, many of them young. We have it in our locker to be better than an average mediocre side.

Anyhow, I can't understand the loyalty to a mercenary like Trap. Maybe, I just expect more from Irish footballers and think that they and the football public deserve better than this regime.

We have a lot of quality players in the team you say. This is the usual case of most supporters who want to get rid of a manager:
1906

We have one player (Coleman) playing in a top 8 team. We have one player (Long) playing in a team not in the relegation zone. Off the top of my head all the other players are playing in mediocre sides battling against relegation or in the Championship. McCarthy may or may not be snapped up by one of the bigger clubs. We heard that often about Kevin Doyle. Our top scorer is collecting his pension in the USA. By the standard of the Premiership, most of our players are mediocre.

With some pretty average Premiership or worse players we have qualified for one tournament and just failed to qualify for another. We have done better than can be expected under Trap.

As for the mercenary jibe, we all get paid to do a job. Professional footballers all get paid by clubs to do a job and then move on to other clubs and get paid by them. Does this make them a mercenary? Many international sides pay foreign managers. Anyone who saw his reaction when Austria scored would realise that his is not motivated solely by the money.

It's not loyalty to Trap. It's an appreciation of what he has achieved with the team. I do not believe there is any other manager who could have brought us to 2.5 campaigns unbeaten away from home. There are, however, many who may have brought us a better home record. His comment about us not being Germany simply put is that some people's expectations are way too high. We see it in many clubs where managers get the sack because a club is only mid-table and next thing they are relegated. His task is to get us to a play off and he has never said that is beyond his expectations.

[Stuttgart88]

Do you think he's getting the most out of the players he has available right now? I don't. I really don't, and that's what irks me most.

18 months ago I'd have said yes and I was prepared to overlook some aspects of his management that I didn't like and I went out of my way to support him in face of certain criticism. I find it much harder to support him now. Like Jack Charlton, he was the right man at a certain time but I think that time has now passed. There is quite a striking parallel between Trap and Declan Kidney in a many ways. In fairness, he probably deserves to be given the chance to see out this campaign but I think a change is needed beyond 2014.

I don't think he's a mercenary by the way. I do think he can work harder than he has done though, and clearly the FAI felt so too. I actually think he's a very charming and likeable character and I have no personall ill-feeling towards him at all.

[Closed Account 2]

I think the players are probably only playing at 70-80% of their collective ability, compared to Charlton where the team were playing at 100%, indeed you might say the team played greater than the sum of its parts under Jack. I dont think that Trap is getting that extra 30% out but I'm not sure any manager could. International football is so different to the way it was in the 1990s, you can read the books by Cascarino and hear what Townsend and Quinn have to say about that time and there was a real camaraderie that probably isnt possible in the modern game - you cant really go for a drink with the fans after a game and everything is a bit more serious. I dont see how international squads can be as cohesive as club squads given the way the club game has dwarfed the national teams, this wasnt the case 20 odd years ago. There are between 6 and 10 international breaks and it's nothing like the same as training and playing with the same players week-in week-out, if you're a team like Spain or perhaps Germany and a lot of the players come from the same club(s) perhaps its easier for the national team.

Also the team is very much in transition - Given and Duff have left us and Dunne may well have too, with Robbie Keane probably not far off either (and probably not able to do 90 mins). Even less stellar (but still important) players like Kilbane have had to go, and it's left a hole in terms of both quality and experience. There are some promising young players (Coleman, McClean, McCarthy, Brady) but the players in the late 20s/early30, the ones who could really be leaders on the pitch, have been having a bad few years. Kelly and St. Ledger havent really settled at any clubs for that long, O'Shea is a reasonable player but he never really developed into the great player he seemed destined to be 10-12 years ago, Whelan and Green are possibly only in the team (and perhaps even squad) because we are lacking talented alternatives in those positions and Doyle is not really in the form he was a few years ago. It's an awkward time because the younger players perhaps dont quite have the experience to fill the gaps left by the older players.

[Bungle]

Coleman and McCarthy are two of the best young players in the premier league. In my opinion, McCarthy will be playing for a top 5 club within the next 12 months. From watching the premiership; Long and Hoolahan would be for me very good players. Neither are top 5 premier league team level players, but both very good nevertheless. Stoke are in freefall, but over the last few years, they have been a very solid premiership team. Wilson never got a look in until recently, despite playing far better than Stephen Ward. Walters has shown he is a good player and certainly international class...if you can bully very good premiership players on a regular basis, then you are international level for me. O'Shea has top level experience even if he has regularly been poor for us. Nevertheless, a good player to have in a squad. McClean is a raw talent. He hasn't kicked on from last year, but you can see glimpses of a very good player, even if he is very predictable.

Prior to his injury, Pilkington was with Hoolahan, Norwich's best player. He looked like a guy who would get a move to a bigger club. Trap never had the chance to play him, to be fair. However, what about Joey O'Brien, who has been very good for the Hammers? Point is, Ireland has good players that have shown that they can compete at a high level and play well on a week to week basis and are more than capable of playing international level. His falling out with players is another concern. While, I can't condone Gibson's behaviour, you can understand the frustration of a player who is an integral part of an Everton side, but is unable to get into the team ahead of Paul Green at the Euros (Yes Green was excellent in Stockholm, but Gibson is a far better player).

Compare our best starting line up with other countries such as Sweden who are countries that regularly compete and do well at international tournaments. Many of their players would play for lower premiership/championship teams, or teams in poorer leagues than the premiership, yet I'm sure the Swedes wouldn't be quick to accept drubbings at the hands of Germany and Spain, as well as being comprehensively outplayed by Croatia and Italy. Okay, Ibra operates on a different levl to any of our players. However, the rest of their starting line up aren't exactly better than anything we have. Maybe one or two would get in ahead of our lads if you amalgamated the teams, but I couldn't pick out anyone that would walk into our team like Ibra.

We are far from perfect. Our goalkeepers are playing with Millwall and is the Sunderland number 2. We lack a top centre half than can dominate top class players. Dunne was able to do this and it may be another campaign (if ever) before Ciaran Clark can do this.

On a personal level, I like Trap. He's a likeable and charming man. I respect what he has achieved in the past. He was an outstanding manager and a great player in his day.

However, I stand by my opinion that he does not give the role 100%. If he did, he would be going to far more games and would surely be able to see that there are better players available for selection that he is picking.