Trap Out and/or Delaney Out

[p2011]

Sounds sensible enough and hits the nail on the head as regards what has been going wrong with Ireland since late 2009 (and please, don't mention the qualification, every Irish manager and every Irish team in the last 25-30 years would have got second in that group and beaten Estonia).

To repeat what I've said elsewhere, we need to get away from non-stop long balls to the likes of Sammon. And there's no need for the likes of Cox or the game Walters on the wings in big games.

For what it's worth, I'd like to see something like:

Long
Winger-Hoolahan-Winger
McCarthy-CM
Wilson-O'Shea-CB-Coleman
Forde

Winger: we have decent options here with McGeady, McClean, Brady, Pilkington etc... so there's no need for strikers there who offer nothing. Even Coleman could play RM, but the combination of Coleman at RB and Brady at RM has looked exciting any time we've seen it.
CM: Ideally Gibson, alternatively one of Andrews, Meyler, Hendrick, Whelan at a push though he's too static for a centre midfielder...
CB: could be Dunne, SSL, R.Keogh, O'Dea...

That team could mix Irish directness and agressiveness with a bit of football ability. And we'll need a bit of possession if we're to get anything from Vienna and Cologne in the autumn and to hang on to unlikely leads or hold out for draws. Are we supposed to go to those places with long ball 4-4-2s and get results, Trap?

Forcing Keane into the team turns us into the 4-4-2 we need to get away from, so Keane should be an excellent option from the bench if we need something in the last 20-30 minutes.

But of course Trap is convinced that we can't play football and STILL hasn't tried out a 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 (call it what you will) in any sensible way from the start of a friendly despite 3 recent friendlies. (I also don't understand why we need Pilkington to try out a new formation, this sounds like a Trap red herring.) With Trap's 4-4-2, we still manage to look outgunned in midfield even against the likes of Armenia and Georgia when they go down to ten men! And I thought you hired Italians for clever tactics and defensive stability...

[peadar1987]

Rodgers certainly has a point in this article, Trap needs to trust more in the technical ability of Irish players, but to say they have the same technical ability as players on the continent is hard to agree with. Personally, I would love to see Gibson come in from the cold.


http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/trap-must-place-more-trust-in-irish-star-quality-rodgers-29479333.html

We need to strike a balance. I'd love to see the manager trust more in our players and let them use their technical ability more, but at international level, the system has to reflect the talent pool available. We could play nicer football than we do at the moment, but the people who suggest that we have the players to play the exact same system as Spain, or Italy, or Germany are deluded. Personally, I think with the players we have, our best bet is to play with a solid spine of players, ideally Gibson and McCarthy in the centre of midfield, sitting deep and helping hold possession, with our quickest full backs and wingers on the field to break when the opportunity arises. Probably John Walters up front to hold up the ball and relieve pressure, and to get on the end of crosses, either alongside someone with a bit of pace, or in front of Robbie Keane, who can drop back into midfield and give the central pair some extra options.

With the players we have available, I'd probably go:

Forde/Randolph
Kelly...O'Shea...Sledge...Coleman
McGeady...Wilson...McCarthy...Brady/Hoolahan/McClean
Keane/Pilkington
Walters/Long

[ArdeeBhoy]

Winger-Hoolahan-Winger

You wouldn't call Hoolahan a 'winger' then...

[mypost]

Sounds sensible enough (and please, don't mention the qualification, every Irish manager and every Irish team in the last 25-30 years would have got second in that group and beaten Estonia).

To repeat what I've said elsewhere, Forcing Keane into the team turns us into the 4-4-2 we need to get away from, so Keane should be an excellent option from the bench if we need something in the last 20-30 minutes.

I thought you hired Italians for clever tactics and defensive stability...

You do and we have it. We once went 15 months unbeaten under Trap. We still have yet to lose a qualifier away from home, and we've recently gone 6 games unbeaten. So his clever tactics and defensive stability works.

If you think it's that easy to beat Estonia and get second in a competitive group, travel about 150 kilometres up the road, find a few butchers aprons handy, and they'll tell you how easy it is to do both.

As I've also said before, we Irish do 4-4-2. We've been playing it as long as I'm watching the team, and in that time it's got us to 5 tournaments. What we have, we hold.

[Supreme feet]

You do and we have it. We once went 15 months unbeaten under Trap. We still have yet to lose a qualifier away from home, and we've recently gone 6 games unbeaten. So his clever tactics and defensive stability works.

If you think it's that easy to beat Estonia and get second in a competitive group, travel about 150 kilometres up the road, find a few butchers aprons handy, and they'll tell you how easy it is to do both.

As I've also said before, we Irish do 4-4-2. We've been playing it as long as I'm watching the team, and in that time it's got us to 5 tournaments. What we have, we hold.

Ah come on, you're not seriously saying that without Trap, we would be at Northern Ireland's level? We have been in the top three seeds of every qualifying group in the last 20-odd years, and as you say, qualified for five tournaments. In that same period, NI haven't been seeded higher than fourth, and have never even qualified for a playoff. Comparing our resources to those of the North is like comparing Sweden and Denmark to Iceland and Finland. We have better players, and more of them, playing at higher levels.

Trap's record is just about acceptable. We've beaten the lower-seeded teams, and invariably drawn home and away against our immediate playoff rivals (Bulgaria, Slovakia, Sweden, Austria) which cancels out poor home performances and thrown-away leads, with some decent, gritty away showings. Our record against the 'top' teams is: Played 10, Won 0, Drawn 4, Lost 6. Under McCarthy, it was: Played 10, Won 3, Drawn 5, Lost 2, although I would admit McCarthy had slightly more talent available. So, it balances out as 'acceptable' - we are not under-achieving, nor over-achieving.

But is 'acceptable' and 'level par' good enough for one of the highest-paid managers in Europe, who plays to a system which sacrifices talent in order to - in theory, at least - make us 'more than the sum of our parts'? Who adopts an attritional style of play and bizarre selection criteria, and alienated many of the fans as a result? Who has guided us to two record defeats in the last 13 months?

[p2011]

You wouldn't call Hoolahan a 'winger' then...

The player himself and his club manager seem to consider him a creative midfielder, playing in the middle behind a lone stiker and ahead of defensive midfielders. He'd be ideal in this role for us, if Trap ever played him like that.


So his clever tactics and defensive stability works.

That sounds like a profession of faith rather than a logical argument. Where has Trap ever applied appropriate tactics for a game, changed tactics, or changed a game with a tactical substitution? I can only think of examples of his failure to do so, such as his failure to react around 70 minutes vs Austria and his persistence in playing 4-4-2 against Spain. When he does play five in midfield, it is in a ham-fisted way (McCarthy advanced v Uruguay, or the chaos at home v Germany). Otherwise Trap does the same thing, regardless of whether we're playing Spain or Andorra – that's not clever tactics. And nobody can seriously claim defensive stability over the last year or so considering some of the hammerings we've taken.


If you think i's that easy to beat Estonia and get second in a competitive group, travel about 150 kilometres up the road, find a few butchers aprons handy, and they'll tell you how easy it is to do both.

I didn't say it was easy, it's just all par for the course for us and shouldn't be used to paper over other shortcomings. Previous managers have drawn with the likes of Slovakia and beaten Estonia. So what? We need a new approach that makes the most of the talent available to us now.


As I'e also said before, we Irish do 4-4-2. We've been playing it as long as I'm watching the team, and in that time it's got us to 5 tournaments. What we have, we hold.

Why do we have to do what we've always done if it's not working? And in fact you're wrong – we clearly haven't always played 4-4-2. The conservative Big Jack regularly lined us up 4-5-1 towards the end of his tenure when he saw that was the way to go (see USA 94), and even Trap has experimented with it in a half-assed way (see above).

[tetsujin1979]

That sounds like a profession of faith rather than a logical argument. Where has Trap ever applied appropriate tactics for a game, changed tactics, or changed a game with a tactical substitution? I can only think of examples of his failure to do so, such as his failure to react around 70 minutes vs Austria and his persistence in playing 4-4-2 against Spain. When he does play five in midfield, it is in a ham-fisted way (McCarthy advanced v Uruguay, or the chaos at home v Germany). Otherwise Trap does the same thing, regardless of whether we're playing Spain or Andorra – that's not clever tactics. And nobody can seriously claim defensive stability over the last year or so considering some of the hammerings we've taken.Bringing Folan on away to Italy
Bringing Doyle on away to Kazakhstan changed the game too

[p2011]

Bringing Folan on away to Italy
Bringing Doyle on away to Kazakhstan changed the game too

Okay, I'll give you those two.
Bringing on Folan represented a shift to Keane playing behind two strikers when we were playing ten men, that's a real tactical shift and it worked – though it is 4.5 years ago at this stage. Doyle for Cox v Kazakhstan was more of a like for like swap, a striker on the wing for a striker on the wing, so not really a tactical shift even if Doyle did have a big impact.

We haven't seen enough of this sort of thing. Austria at home was crying out for a couple of changes around 70 mins, Green on for Whelan say, and any striker on for Sammon who was knackered and not closing down the opposition, and Hoolahan too to hold onto the ball. (Instead we got Green at RM on for Long, a tired Walters pushed up front with a tired Sammon - we didn't even use our 3 subs) All three games in Poland were examples of tactical inertia. I still don't see how anyone can claim Trap employs clever tactics or influences games from the line during games.

[mypost]

Ah come on, you're not seriously saying that without Trap, we would be at Northern Ireland's level? We have been in the top three seeds of every qualifying group in the last 20-odd years, and as you say, qualified for five tournaments. In that same period, NI haven't been seeded higher than fourth, and have never even qualified for a playoff. Comparing our resources to those of the North is like comparing Sweden and Denmark to Iceland and Finland. We have better players, and more of them, playing at higher levels.

I am seriously saying it. Look at the ever decreasing standard of club football our players are playing at. Another player has moved downstairs this week. In a few weeks, he'll be expected to take on Germany and be competent at their level.

We were heading for the gstq's level of football until he took over, and we were fourth seeds for one campaign. If you want us to end up there and with their other unfortunate brothers across the water, wait til Trap goes and suddenly beating Estonia in playoffs will be no more than a pipe dream.


Trap's record is just about acceptable. But is 'acceptable' and 'level par' good enough for one of the highest-paid managers in Europe, who plays to a system which sacrifices talent in order to - in theory, at least - make us 'more than the sum of our parts'? Who adopts an attritional style of play and bizarre selection criteria, and alienated many of the fans as a result? Who has guided us to two record defeats in the last 13 months?

Our "record defeats" are to teams ranked Number 1 and Number 2 in the game, who qualify for every tournament and one that wins every prize going. Sorry we didn't quite match up to their standards but it can happen when a Real Madrid/Barcelona/Bayern Munich XI face the "best" of Stoke, Wigan, Millwall etc.

Our performance in 29 qualifiers since he took over is 26 results - 3 reverses. His away qualifying record is 15 games - 15 results. Our record since he took over is 2 playoffs, and 1 finals. He is the first Irish coach to get results in Russia and Bulgaria, and the first Irish coach to win in Macedonia. This is a country of 4 million people and by those standards, it's not just "acceptable", it's outstanding.


I can only think of examples of his failure to do so, such as his failure to react around 70 minutes vs Austria.

He reacted against Austria on 80 minutes. Another 65 seconds and it would have paid off.


I didn't say it was easy, it's just all par for the course for us. Previous managers have drawn with the likes of Slovakia and beaten Estonia. So what?

No other Irish coach has beaten Estonia. Others have failed to beat Macedonia, Cyprus, and Liechtenstein. Only one other Irish coach has ever won a playoff. It certainly isn't par for the course.


Why do we have to do what we've always done if it's not working? And in fact you're wrong – we clearly haven't always played 4-4-2. The conservative Big Jack regularly lined us up 4-5-1 towards the end of his tenure when he saw that was the way to go (see USA 94).

No he didn't. For 10 years, we played 4-4-2 and whacked the ball 40 yards up the pitch. Some of our most famous goals of all time have come from the 40-yard lump. Today, we play 4-4-2 and whack the ball 40 yards up the pitch. It's got us to a tournament and a playoff. However unattractive it looks, it's by far our most successful tactic.

I honestly don't care how it looks, I crave results. We've got 26 of them in the past 5 years and a ticket to a championship, therefore I believe in what our coach is doing for this country.

[Charlie Darwin]

wait til Trap goes and suddenly beating Estonia in playoffs will be no more than a pipe dream.
It's looking like a pipe dream now.

[peadar1987]

mypost, I don't mean to nit pick, but we beat Estonia home and away in qualification for WC2002. Kinsella and Breen scored in Dublin, Dunne and Holland in Tallinn

[bennocelt]

I honestly don't care how it looks, I crave results. We've got 26 of them in the past 5 years and a ticket to a championship, therefore I believe in what our coach is doing for this country.

Could be argued that with one of the best paid international managers we havent even looked close to winning anything (as in trophies):p

[p2011]

No he didn't. For 10 years, we played 4-4-2 and whacked the ball 40 yards up the pitch.

Simply not true. We started all four games at USA 94 with a lone striker. Look it up.

[peadar1987]

Simply not true. We started all four games at USA 94 with a lone striker. Look it up.

The great Tommy Coyne was first choice was he not?

[Charlie Darwin]

The great Tommy Coyne was first choice was he not?
First choice because Big Niall was sequestered with a back injury, which he now claims shouldn't have kept him out of the team. We can now see Quinn's forced exclusion as a desperate and cynical ploy by the Italians to prevent us from imposing our mastery of the 4-4-2 upon their puny brand of calcio.

[p2011]

Another player has moved downstairs this week. In a few weeks, he'll be expected to take on Germany and be competent at their level.
That's the exactly sort of defeatist negative talk that Trap comes out with, blaming the players and giving up against big teams before we even square up to them (his comments after Euros and Germany). I'm used to Irish teams showing a bit more spirit and having a go against every opposition, whether ranked 1 or 100.

I've no problem with us losing to magnificent teams like Spain and Germany, but I do have a problem with the negligence in not using the bench v Austria and in Trap's defeatist attitude v big teams. It's not what Ireland is about.


He reacted against Austria on 80 minutes. Another 65 seconds and it would have paid off.
So he reacted too late and in the wrong way, that's great. And any Italian manager worth his salt would make a 3rd substitution in stoppage time at 2-1 to waste a minute.


No other Irish coach has beaten Estonia.
Patently not true.


No he didn't.
Patently not true.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hmm, for every 'good' point mp makes, he seems to make about 4 bad ones...

The one which I will respond to is Trap's record. Yes, it is good in terms of not losing. Ecellent even. But that can and will only ever achieve so much.
But it is poor in conceding draws and shocking in converting leads into victories whilst all but the biggest die-hard will admit that's it's like :rolleyes: watching paint dry at times...

Not just that;would rather take the slight risk of winning games, with the slight chance of losing the odd one. We might even accumulate a higher aggregate and the spectacle could only be more appealing?

[OwlsFan]

Could be argued that with one of the best paid international managers we havent even looked close to winning anything (as in trophies):p

I vaguely remember us winning the Celtic Cup.

[geysir]

No other Irish coach has beaten Estonia. Others have failed to beat Macedonia, Cyprus, and Liechtenstein. Only one other Irish coach has ever won a playoff. It certainly isn't par for the course.
A forgettable match but an unforgettable memory of an all important cosy away win in 2001.
But Trap's away record is indeed above par.

[mypost]

That's the exactly sort of defeatist negative talk that Trap comes out with, blaming the players and giving up against big teams before we even square up to them (his comments after Euros and Germany). I'm used to Irish teams showing a bit more spirit and having a go against every opposition, whether ranked 1 or 100.

I've no problem with us losing to magnificent teams like Spain and Germany, but I do have a problem with the negligence in not using the bench v Austria and in Trap's defeatist attitude v big teams. It's not what Ireland is about.

So what are we about then? The moral victory I guess. How many points does it get, tournaments, trophies even?

He isn't defeatist, he is realistic. Outpassing the Germans and Spanish is not possible. Outplaying them with our resources compared to theirs is not doable. So we must have a system which we have, a formation which we have, and a gameplan which usually gets the result we need. You might want us to have a go, but Italians want to get a result. You "have a go" on PS2, you don't "have a go" in top level football, when you need a result with your job on the line.


And any Italian manager worth his salt would make a 3rd substitution in stoppage time at 2-1 to waste a minute.

And any continental ref is within his rights to add on the minute wasted if he wishes.

We had 3 minutes to hold out against a side who offered lots of possession but few attempts on goal. So they got Alaba to try his luck 20 yards out with a minute left. And it still needed a deflection to go in.

[Supreme feet]

Outpassing the Germans and Spanish is not possible. Outplaying them with our resources compared to theirs is not doable. So we must have a system which we have, a formation which we have, and a gameplan which usually gets the result we need.

Finland drew 1-1 in Spain a couple of months ago. Sweden drew in Germany. I don't see why we should accept 4/5 goal defeats as an inevitability. When Spain won the World Cup, they didn't win every game 4-0 - Switzerland beat them, and Chile, Paraguay and even Honduras gave them a tougher test than we did in Gdansk.

Wins against Georgia, Cyprus, Armenia, Macedonia and Estonia are all good and commendable, but taken for what they are, they don't offer much of a validation for such a high-profile coach, who is extravagantly paid to get the best and more out of our resources. The only justification for playing this style of football would be if we were genuinely over-achieving. You may think we are, we'll have to agree to differ. I think that if we actually got our best team on the field on a consistent basis, results and performances would be better. An Irish team with Whelan in the centre, Sammon up front, and a striker on the wing is clearly not the best Irish XI.

We were close to having that 'ideal' team against Sweden, with Keane dropping deep, and we played well and got a point. Then Trapattoni reverted to type for the Austria game, made a daft selectorial decision in replacing Keane with Sammon instead of Hoolahan, and we went back to long-ball and an undermanned midfield. We were outplayed, and dropped two points. At home. The manager has to carry the can for that, just as much as we should commend him for grinding out wins against the 'banana-skin' sides.

[mypost]

Finland got a point in Spain. Georgia almost got another in an earlier qualifier. You can be assured, that it didn't come from "having a go". It came from having a gameplan, and carrying it out. That's what has to be done, and what we do too.

A group is a 10 game campaign, not a glamour game series. The above wins are not merely "good and commendable", they're essential, and without them there would be no playoffs or finals. That's why Finland nor Georgia won't qualify for the World Cup, and why we are in the hunt for further progress from our group in this campaign.

[peadar1987]

To be fair, Northern Ireland keep on beating the likes of Spain and England in one-off performances. It doesn't mean I'd replace our players, manager, tactics, or general international record with theirs!

[Supreme feet]

Finland got a point in Spain. Georgia almost got another in an earlier qualifier. You can be assured, that it didn't come from "having a go". It came from having a gameplan, and carrying it out. That's what has to be done, and what we do too.*

A group is a 10 game campaign, not a glamour game series. The above wins are not merely "good and commendable", they're essential, and without them there would be no playoffs or finals. That's why Finland nor Georgia won't qualify for the World Cup, and why we are in the hunt for further progress from our group in this campaign.

Yes, I agree that these wins over Armenia, Estonia etc are essential, but achieving those results is not 'outstanding', as you claim. It is a basic requirement at this level. There is no excuse for a team made up mostly of proven EPL players to drop points to sides made up of players from third-rate European teams. Estonia have current full internationals playing for York City, Motherwell and Sillamae Kalev - beating them 4-0 with a two-man advantage isn't exactly a cause for hailing Trapattoni as a miracle worker. Armenia's team, aside from Mkhitaryan, is made up mostly of home-based players and journeymen from the Kazakh and Iranian leagues. Yet Estonia and Armenia - two countries with even smaller populations than our own - are the most high-profile teams we've beaten under Trap.

I don't want to go on the anti-Trap witch-hunt bandwagon, and I am aware that the search for a replacement is fraught with danger, but I'm frustrated with the 'one step forward, two steps back' pattern under his reign. We played some great stuff away to Montenegro in '08, France in '09, and Sweden this year, when Trapattoni picked the best players and allowed them to play. However, instead of taking the positives and building on these encouraging performances, we have invariably reverted to the crude hoofball and bizarre selections which resulted in inept performances in crucial home games against Bulgaria, Slovakia and Austria. We could have paid dearly for that draw with Slovakia, and we will, I fear, pay dearly for that result against the Austrians. It has the whiff of Brian Kerr and Israel all over again.

[mypost]

Yes, I agree that these wins over Armenia, Estonia etc are essential, but achieving those results is not 'outstanding', as you claim. It is a basic requirement at this level. There is no excuse for a team made up mostly of proven EPL players to drop points to sides made up of players from third-rate European teams. Estonia have current full internationals playing for York City, Motherwell and Sillamae Kalev - beating them 4-0 with a two-man advantage isn't exactly a cause for hailing Trapattoni as a miracle worker. Armenia's team, aside from Mkhitaryan, is made up mostly of home-based players and journeymen from the Kazakh and Iranian leagues. Yet Estonia and Armenia - two countries with even smaller populations than our own - are the most high-profile teams we've beaten under Trap.

So what if their players play for York City and Iran? We had to face those teams and get the better of them, which we did. Plenty of previous Irish coaches have failed to do so in the past, and plenty will in the future. Maybe the results themselves aren't outstanding, but the consistency of them most certainly is.

The neighbours couldn't deal with Estonia in the very same campaign, and didn't qualify. They then changed coach, who still can't get the better of Malta, Iceland, Luxembourg, or anyone else for that matter these days. That's what happens when gameplans, systems, and organisation are sacrificed for "having a go". So they won't be going to Brazil either.

Under Trap, we haven't paid dearly for any result he's got us long term. Austria have 3 away games left and may pay dearly for not winning in Astana, while the "value" of Sweden's point in Germany has been thrown in the bin after their results since. So we're all level with 4 games to go, and we're neither in nor out of it yet.

[Supreme feet]

So what if their players play for York City and Iran? We had to face those teams and get the better of them, which we did. Plenty of previous Irish coaches have failed to do so in the past, and plenty will in the future. Maybe the results themselves aren't outstanding, but the consistency of them most certainly is.

The neighbours couldn't deal with Estonia in the very same campaign, and didn't qualify. They then changed coach, who still can't get the better of Malta, Iceland, Luxembourg, or anyone else for that matter these days. That's what happens when gameplans, systems, and organisation are sacrificed for "having a go". So they won't be going to Brazil either.

Under Trap, we haven't paid dearly for any result he's got us long term. Austria have 3 away games left and may pay dearly for not winning in Astana, while the "value" of Sweden's point in Germany has been thrown in the bin after their results since. So we're all level with 4 games to go, and we're neither in nor out of it yet.

But surely you can see why I would be concerned? We can't, like in 2011, depend on other results to go our way. If we are to qualify for the playoffs, we'll have to do something in September that we've never done under Trap, and win a game against a seeded playoff rival. If we're going to do that, we have to play our best players, try to score goals from open play, and produce a level of performance that we have only fleetingly seen under this manager. If the manager resorts to hoofing it and leaving out our best players for limited grafters, as we have done so often under Trapattoni, we will deserve the early elimination that will inevitably follow.

[mypost]

None of us know what we need to do. What we have to do is finish above Austria and Sweden at the end of the last game. If that means getting 5, 6, 7, or 8 points, that's what it means. The group is decided after we beat the Kazachs, and no sooner.

There are many other countries that would love to be in the position we're in, but are playing for ranking points only.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Will bet you any money you can we don't get 8 points from our remaining games. 5 at best I reckon.

[Supreme feet]

5 is the most we can hope for, if we keep playing like we did against Austria.

Direct, attritional tactics are very well-suited to playing against lower-ranked teams. When we get the ball into the opposition half quickly, it forces mistakes and loose possession from defenders who aren't used to playing high-intensity football. Robbie's second goal in Macedonia, and the sendings-off in the Armenia and Estonia games, are both good examples of this.

However, against Bulgaria, Slovakia, Croatia, Austria, et al, we are playing against composed Bundesliga defenders who are well used to high-intensity football, and when we inevitably give possession away from long balls, these teams have enough quality/technique to keep possession for long periods. We then find it difficult to win it back, so like against Austria in the second half, we find ourselves chasing shadows and being too fatigued to use the ball constructively on the rare occasions that we get it. Stupidity is doing the same things over again while expecting different results - we have to be smarter against Sweden and Austria. We need to be able to play like we did in Stockholm, mix it up, and be able to slow the game down, do the simple things right, and keep the ball, especially if we find ourselves in front. With Hoolahan and McCarthy in midfield, and Keane dropping back, this would be achievable. With Whelan in there and two isolated centre-forwards, not so much. It's Trap's call.

[DeLorean]

mypost, I don't mean to nit pick, but we beat Estonia home and away in qualification for WC2002. Kinsella and Breen scored in Dublin, Dunne and Holland in Tallinn

I don't mean to nit pick either, but it was actually Dunne and not Breen that scored in Dublin also.

[Sullivinho]

I don't mean to nit pick either, but it was actually Dunne and not Breen that scored in Dublin also.

Nearly killed (as Sir Alex might say) Mart Poom in doing so, who had to nit pick himself out of the net. Iirc.

[mypost]

5 is the most we can hope for, if we keep playing like we did against Austria.

Direct, attritional tactics are very well-suited to playing against lower-ranked teams. When we get the ball into the opposition half quickly, it forces mistakes and loose possession from defenders who aren't used to playing high-intensity football. Robbie's second goal in Macedonia, and the sendings-off in the Armenia and Estonia games, are both good examples of this.

However, against Bulgaria, Slovakia, Croatia, Austria, et al, we are playing against composed Bundesliga defenders who are well used to high-intensity football, and when we inevitably give possession away from long balls, these teams have enough quality/technique to keep possession for long periods. We then find it difficult to win it back, so like against Austria in the second half, we find ourselves chasing shadows and being too fatigued to use the ball constructively on the rare occasions that we get it. Stupidity is doing the same things over again while expecting different results - we have to be smarter against Sweden and Austria. We need to be able to play like we did in Stockholm, mix it up, and be able to slow the game down, do the simple things right, and keep the ball, especially if we find ourselves in front. With Hoolahan and McCarthy in midfield, and Keane dropping back, this would be achievable. With Whelan in there and two isolated centre-forwards, not so much. It's Trap's call.

I don't think the sendings off above had anything to do with tactics. The goal in Macedonia didn't have to do with them either. They gave Robbie a chance, and Robbie being the finisher he is, took it. That's why he is the first name on the team sheet when he's available.

I don't know how many points we'll get, and can't forecast them either. We needed two points in March to stay in the race, we got them. It was a struggle at times, but it ultimately worked. That's what separates Trap from other coaches down the years. When we struggled before, we failed. When we struggle under him, we usually get through and get the job done.

[Closed Account 2]

Armenia's team, aside from Mkhitaryan, is made up mostly of home-based players and journeymen from the Kazakh and Iranian leagues. Yet Estonia and Armenia - two countries with even smaller populations than our own - are the most high-profile teams we've beaten under Trap.


That's not really true, they have two Iranian based players and three Kazakh based players. In fact the Armenians have as many Russian Premier League based players. Movsisyan was a €7.5m signing for Spartak Moscow last winter and scored 4 in 8 before his injury. Ozbiliz signed just this summer for Spartak for €10m, previously he had played for Kuban and before that he was at Ajax and actually scored for them in the Europa league against Man Utd. Manucharyan had spells with Ajax where he played UEFA Cup matches, and now plays in the Russian PL for Ural. Pizzelli, the Brazilian import, has played for top flight Ukrainian and Russian clubs, and Berezovsky the keeper has been playing in the Russian PL for the last decade.

As a team they have had some very good results in competitive games over the last few years, winning 4-0 in Denmark 3 months ago, drawing at home to Russia and beating Slovakia twice (3-1 home 4-0 away). I agree that Estonia are perhaps no great shakes, but I wouldn't be so dismissive of the win we got in Yerevan, it was played in extreme heat and with players who hadnt started the season so to speak (it was 3rd Sept).

[third policeman]

. That's what separates Trap from other coaches down the years. When we struggled before, we failed. When we struggle under him, we usually get through and get the job done.

Or we concede the highest number of goals ever in the European Championship Finals

[ArdeeBhoy]

That aspect is a little harsh given the opposition. But patently we were the worst team there and his continual failure to pick the best potential team doesn't augur well.

Notice that even mp has considerably toned down his expectations...

[Stuttgart88]

Serious question: while I expect Trap has the best away record of any Irish manager, does any manager of the modern era have a worse home record?

We regularly get beaten in friendlies, and in competitive matches we have only beaten Cyprus, Georgia, Andorra, Macedonia, Faroes and Armenia. We have lost to France, Russia, Germany and Sweden, and drawn with Bulgaria, Montenegro, Italy, Slovakia, Estonia and Austria.

[Irwin3]

Speaking of records. If we lose to Austria it looks like we could be on to surpass our lowest FIFA ranking and end up around 59th. Good times.

[Yossarian]

At this stage it's probably good for all concerned that Trap finishes up. I think it's no harm in having a new face in who isn't so inflexible with regards players and tactics. Who that man is I'm not sure,but the defeatist attitude going into games against higher ranked teams is enough to make a change for me. We're never going to be a team of world beaters but the consistent negativity before a ball is kicked from the management needs to be removed.

[ArdeeBhoy]

It's because Trapp's just too stubborn.

[NeverFeltBetter]

That Trap might actually play for a draw tomorrow night just to secure a rankings place fills me with glumness that it has gotten to such a point.

[Grafter]

Considering it seems to be the last days of disco with this management team, are there any tributes for Trap's second in command Marco Tardelli? In his universe "the man who would be king" of course:rolleyes:

[DannyInvincible]

Marco appears to be as convinced as Trap that an outmoded system is our best approach and getting us somewhere right now (unless his defence of our tactics is simply an effort to keep the main man happy). Unfortunately, the system is getting us nowhere. A loss in Austria on Tuesday will see us slip to our lowest FIFA ranking ever. If he took over from Trap, isn't it more than likely then that we'd see a continuation of the same?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Maybe. But more important point is in the longer-term we don't seem to have any decent players coming through.

Whilst we all bemoan the FAI and their paltry efforts, other important factor is that these things often go in cycles too and we seem to be entering a downwards curve too.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Apologies for the source...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/republic-of-ireland/10294311/Republic-of-Ireland-give-up-on-vilified-manager-Giovanni-Trapattoni-despite-slim-World-Cup-chance.html

[the doc]

Maybe. But more important point is in the longer-term we don't seem to have any decent players coming through.

Whilst we all bemoan the FAI and their paltry efforts, other important factor is that these things often go in cycles too and we seem to be entering a downwards curve too.

England don't have any decent players coming through either.

Forget the Sky TV hype, foreign players are being brought by clubs in all the English leagues.

Most aren't any better than the English, Irish lads.

The days when a top club brought a young player from the lower leagues are few and far between.

Young players aren't getting the chance to prove there good enough to step up.

I wonder if the likes of Keegan, Brady etc would of progressed to bigger and better things in today's football.

England always talk ****e about developing young players, Lilleshall didn't work same as this new academy at Burton won't either as players won't get opportunities to play and develop at first team level for top clubs.

Here in Ireland we have cut back on spending in youth development at football.

It's led to some of our coaches taking up jobs in England.

We can talk all we like but nothing will change unless the Football Association limit overseas players who are no better than what we have, flooding into clubs.

Most sitting on the bench.

People on here come up with 10 year plans, but that's pointless when your FA reduce funding midway through the process.

[Charlie Darwin]

I agree with the doc, the FA need to limit the number of foreigners at clubs in England. Their priority should be to develop players for the national team and they can't do that when Premier League sides are packed with players from Spain, France and Ireland.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yes, the EU will of course agree...

[peadar1987]

Yes, the EU will of course agree...

AFAIK it's okay to limit the number of non-English players in a matchday squad, as you can still employ as many non-English as you want. Open to correction on that one though.

[Stuttgart88]

I think UEFA has categorised players as "homegrown" or not, i.e., did the player spend 3 or so years at the club's academy or underage set-up, regardless of where he's from. There must be a minimum number of homegrown players in the squad. This gets around the EU rules on discriminating by nationality.

In sport, he EU has sometimes allowed anything that is in breach of labour & competition rules if (a) the "breach" is justified and (b) if the breach is a proportionate restriction, i.e., it only goes as far as is necessary toachieve the required objective. So, in the famous Bosman case the ECJ ruled that although it felt that the then transfer rules were justifiable, it was felt that restricting an oput of contract player's movement wasn't proportionate, so they ruled in favour of Bosman.

Now, bear in mind that the EU is sympatetic to the so-called European Model of Sport (I have previously posted official links to EU documents discussing this concept). In a nutshell this "model" embraces the european way of doing things rather than the US. So, the EU appreciates that promotion & relegation / open leagues, pyramidal structures, national leagues but international representative competitions is the most common way of organising team sport in Europe. Therefore I think a good argument could be made to go back to the EU, citing the state of the EPL as an example and how Bosman has changed everything - not for the better and not in keeping with the "European model" - and argue that re-introducing some degree of nationality quotas might be justifiable and also a proportionate response.

Just a thought.

[Bungle]

I keep hearing how the Premiership has destroyed the English national team, but they have very poor memories - they were god awful at Euro 92 (the one that got away from us) and they didn't even make World Cup 94. Those tournaments were at the time when the premiership were in its early days and teams were packed with mostly English players.

Yes, Liverpool in the 70's/80's had some fabulous teams, but most of their best players were Scottish, with the Irish or Welsh or Australians or Danes playing a big role in success as well. The same was through of United, Leeds, Forest, Derby etc with the best players often being Scottish or other nationalites. England were truly rubbish in the 70's, while in the 80's they had no idea how to really play some of their technically wonderful players like Hoddle, Waddle, Beardsley and Barnes.

The English are right to aspire to be better, as we should, but the fact is that if a player is good enough he will normally make it. I am sure that there have been some very good young players that have not broken through like the Keegans or Bradys of yesteryear, because their paths were stopped by a Bergkamp or a Zola, but I don't believe it's on the scale the FA would state.

Too many youngsters in Britain (and Ireland) don't have the drive to succeed that the continentals or South Americans do. Societal factors (poor diet, drugs, alcohol and parents unwilling to allow their children play on the streets like they would have in the past doesn't help).