Trap Out and/or Delaney Out

[back of the net]

Trap has to be credited for taking us out of the abyss that the staunton era left us in.

But the last 2 and a bit years have not been good enough for a manager that is on his salary. We may have qualified for the euros and to be honest there was a lot of luck in us qualifying for them...i.e scraping results in the qualification group and an easy draw in the playoffs.

I do believe we have the players to compete and perform better at international level, but despite the great performance in Sweden, I knew , come the following Tuesday I would be tearing my hair out in Lansdowne Rd against Austria due to team selection and tactics which resulted in yet another blood pressure rising result.


Every team has a slice of luck , absolutely.....but luck eventually runs out.

The harsh reality is , Ireland are not viewed as highly as we should be by other national teams,(I am not saying we are world class) , the reason this is , is due to that any decent team knows how we are going to play and who we are going to use to play that way.

This is in turn leads to the main fact, Trap refuses to learn from the mistakes he has made (or has been making for nearly the last 2 years), playing the wrong players and the wrong tactics. As per luck , every team / Manager makes mistakes, it happens, but sweet jesus when you are getting paid 1.5 milion a bloody year and refuse to learn from them , then it becomes utterly infuriating.

In the last 2 years, I can only think of one very good performance and that was sweden away.....the majority of the rest have been painful and heartbreaking watching our manager show no faith in our good players ability..

And despite us not out of the running for WC 2014 ....why the hell should we be happy with that?? Spanked by germany and throwing away a victory against austria at home .... we should not have to be depending on if other results go our way ....if Trap had learnt from his mistakes, then we highly likely wouldnt have to do that to get 2nd place in the group behind germany..

[mypost]

Not from me it wasn't. I was saying at the time that it was misleading. How can you give credit to a defence for keeping a clean sheet when a guy hits the bar with a penalty, for example?

Because it didn't go in, simple really. He may as well have hit the corner flag as the bar, it's not a goal either way. Clean sheets don't recognise penalty misses, close shaves, or whether you're outplayed or not. They only recognise results.


I was very anxious in that last ten minutes. It just looked like one of those games where you could tell that a goal was on the cards even if there hadn't been a clear-cut chance to do so. Goals aren't always preceded by clear-cut chances. There's no rule that says you can only score if you have been very close just beforehand.

No there isn't, but there is a likelihood factor, and we dealt pretty comfortably imo with everything they threw at us. That's why I was stunned when the deflection went in.

Charlton did it against England and Holland in 1988 and Poland in 91, McCarthy tried it in Croatia and Macedonia, Kerr tried it in Cyprus and Israel, Staunton tried it in Slovakia. The art of defending results late on is part of the game and nothing new for us. It's a gamble alright, but in general it works more often than it doesn't.

[shakermaker1982]

If Stuttgart is not allowed to mention a penalty hitting the bar then you've got to stop mentioning that bloody deflection! It went in. Simple really. It's a goal.

[Charlie Darwin]

The leetle deetails.

[Junior]

Charlton did it against England and Holland in 1988 and Poland in 91, McCarthy tried it in Croatia and Macedonia, Kerr tried it in Cyprus and Israel, Staunton tried it in Slovakia. The art of defending results late on is part of the game and nothing new for us. It's a gamble alright, but in general it works more often than it doesn't.

Got any examples of the ones where it did work out for us, apart from England 88? I am not seeing where the "in general it works more often than it doesnt" in what you've said?
Or am I misunderstanding the point you are trying to make?

[Stuttgart88]

There's a famous book by Daryl Huff (?) "Lying With Statistics". Some will say that the stats don't lie but anyone but an idiot would recognise that numbers tell you one thing, qualitative judgment tells you another. The general observable trend was that as a team we were better organised and able to get good results - even if facile home wins over a vastly under-strength Northern Ireland were included in the data set.

The Scotland home game - Miller put a one-on-one an inch past the post with Given beaten all ends up and was arguably hard done by not to be given a penalty. The Bosnia friendluy at home - we gifted them a gilt-edged chance in injury time through pure sloppiness. The clean sheet record flattered us and disguised the fact that we were still giving up careless chances. Every team gives up chances, it's part of the game, but giving them up through carelessness was a trend that was also evident even if the clean sheet statistic was the headline-grabber. The qualitative trend suggested that we weren't as difficult to beat as the numbers suggested and when it came to the push that's what has subsequently been shown to be true.

I was watching Chelsea at Liverpool yesterday. You can argue all day long that both Sturridge and Suarez should have been off the pitch, but at the same tiime Chelsea sat further and further back and Liverpool, like Austria, hadn't caused any rweal panic but my experience of watching the game is that the more you sit back the more likely it is that you'll give something up.

[mypost]

Compare our best starting line up with other countries such as Sweden who are countries that regularly compete and do well at international tournaments. Many of their players would play for lower premiership/championship teams, or teams in poorer leagues than the premiership, yet I'm sure the Swedes wouldn't be quick to accept drubbings at the hands of Germany and Spain, as well as being comprehensively outplayed by Croatia and Italy. Okay, Ibra operates on a different levl to any of our players. However, the rest of their starting line up aren't exactly better than anything we have. Maybe one or two would get in ahead of our lads if you amalgamated the teams, but I couldn't pick out anyone that would walk into our team like Ibra.

We are far from perfect. Our goalkeepers are playing with Millwall and is the Sunderland number 2. We lack a top centre half than can dominate top class players. Dunne was able to do this and it may be another campaign (if ever) before Ciaran Clark can do this.

On a personal level, I like Trap. He's a likeable and charming man. I respect what he has achieved in the past. He was an outstanding manager and a great player in his day.

However, I stand by my opinion that he does not give the role 100%. If he did, he would be going to far more games and would surely be able to see that there are better players available for selection that he is picking.

Don't see what the Premiership factor has to do with anything. Norway, Finland, Bulgaria, Iceland have had players in the EPL. What have they done internationally in recent years?

The inescapable reality is that our players have limited technical ability and our country usually fails to make tournaments, never mind get the opportunity to face three of the world's best sides in it. If you want to see our players true standing in the international game, you only have to travel roughly 200 kilometres up the road to realise where we really would be these days, without one of the game's greatest ever coaches in charge of our team.

[Yard of Pace]

I'm just still annoyed by the "we're not England, we're not Germany" quote.

If a Limerick hurling manager said similar, substituting, say, Tipp and Cork for the English and the Germans, they'd be lynched. And rightly so.

"Put 'em under pressure" has been changed to "hoof it long and give the ball to the opposition so that they can put us under pressure".

[Charlie Darwin]

I'm just still annoyed by the "we're not England, we're not Germany" quote.

If a Limerick hurling manager said similar, substituting, say, Tipp and Cork for the English and the Germans, they'd be lynched. And rightly so.

"Put 'em under pressure" has been changed to "hoof it long and give the ball to the opposition so that they can put us under pressure".
Put us under pressure! It has a nice ring to it.

[DeLorean]

I'm just still annoyed by the "we're not England, we're not Germany" quote.

If a Limerick hurling manager said similar, substituting, say, Tipp and Cork for the English and the Germans, they'd be lynched. And rightly so.

"Put 'em under pressure" has been changed to "hoof it long and give the ball to the opposition so that they can put us under pressure".

I still think a lot of you are missing what he meant by that, at least the way I took it. Tony O'Donoghue asked him if he would now consider his position after the draw with Austria. He was rightly baffled by such a stupid question and implied that we were never likely to be in much of a better position with regards qualifying after five games, in the way that Germany, England, etc are likely to be.

It would be more like a Limerick manager being asked if he would now consider his position after drawing with Clare in a Munster semi final.

[back of the net]

I still think a lot of you are missing what he meant by that, at least the way I took it. Tony O'Donoghue asked him if he would now consider his position after the draw with Austria. He was rightly baffled by such a stupid question and implied that we were never likely to be in much of a better position with regards qualifying after five games, in the way that Germany, England, etc are likely to be.

It would be more like a Limerick manager being asked if he would now consider his position after drawing with Clare in a Munster semi final.

Not so sure on that Delorean, I think Trap meant it , the way it came across. Whilst I didnt agree with O'Donoghue interview technique, I do believe Trap was highly insulted that O'Donoghue dared to question the ability / decisions of the "almighty" Trap , and thus he came out with infuriating comment.

When you say "baffled" - would Trap have been as Baffled as the irish supporters were who have seen their manager not take on board any of the numerous errors he made during the last campaign and the following euros despite getting paid 1.5mill per annum?

We all accept that Germany are far and away the best team in the group, but in reality if Trap was willing to get a grasp on his flawed tactics , we very likely would not have been pummelled by germany and would have beaten Austria.

We are currently ranked near the bottom of the Qualifying Groups 2nd Place seedings , with the bottom placed missing out on a playoff spot.....how important could those 2 dropped points against be?

If us and Austria, or Us and Sweden end up level on points with both games against each other drawn....will it go to goal difference? 6 goals conceded against germany should will probably rule us out of that equation also

So IMO we could be in a better position in regards of qualifying if Trap was willing to open his eyes

[mypost]

If us and Austria, or Us and Sweden end up level on points with both games against each other drawn....will it go to goal difference? 6 goals conceded against germany should will probably rule us out of that equation also

So IMO we could be in a better position in regards of qualifying if Trap was willing to open his eyes

The group goal difference can decide who finishes where in the group. Then the team who finishes second will be judged by their points tally, minus that of the bottom team. e.g. 18 total (- 6 v Faroes) = 12 playoff points. Those 12 points are then used against all the other group runners-up to decide the best 8 that qualify. Atm, we have 5 playoff points going into September. We finished 8th of the 8 teams 4 years ago. There's plenty of time left to get more.

Goal difference means absolutely nothing unless 2nd and below in the group finish level on points, and our fate in any WCQ has not been decided by goal difference since 1982. The closest it came to since then was in 1994, as the number of Goals Scored was required to separate us from Denmark. We scored 4 more than them after 12 games.

[DeLorean]

Not so sure on that Delorean, I think Trap meant it , the way it came across. Whilst I didnt agree with O'Donoghue interview technique, I do believe Trap was highly insulted that O'Donoghue dared to question the ability / decisions of the "almighty" Trap , and thus he came out with infuriating comment.

We could be in a better position, no doubt about that. I totally disagree about the TOD interview though. After the uplifting performance in Sweden and being within seconds of a vital win, undeserved or otherwise, I honestly think he was just saying to himself "ah just f*** off Donoghue, not this sh*t again" but hadn't the patience at that moment to dress it up, so he just went with the first thing that came into his head which was a bit of a reality lesson to Tony. The reality being that we're still in contention and, although it could be a lot better, any other manager is unlikely to have done as well results-wise over the past few years. I think Trap has always, in normal circumstances, tried to explain why he has chosen a certain way of playing and tried to justify what certain players can bring or certain players cannot. Therefore I don't think it's a case of him getting insulted by somebody questioning the "almighty" Trap. I'm sure Trap felt every bit as bad as all of us at that moment and I could barely speak at all I was so disgusted.

None of this is anything to do with whether I believe he has made the right calls or played the right systems. I think we all agree that some of his selections and tactics have been frustrating and, at times, bizarre.

[back of the net]

We could be in a better position, no doubt about that. I totally disagree about the TOD interview though. After the uplifting performance in Sweden and being within seconds of a vital win, undeserved or otherwise, I honestly think he was just saying to himself "ah just f*** off Donoghue, not this sh*t again" but hadn't the patience at that moment to dress it up, so he just went with the first thing that came into his head which was a bit of a reality lesson to Tony.

None of this is anything to do with whether I believe he has made the right calls or played the right systems. I think we all agree that some of his selections and tactics have been frustrating and, at times, bizarre.

But surely after an uplifting performance in Sweden, it would make sense not to go back to the old tried and Failed routine as he did in Lansdowne....if Trap is going to consistently employ the same failed rubbish tactics , he is going to leave himself open to a "tougher" form of questioning (again I dont agree with O'donoghues deployment of the questions) from journalists?

Trap just looked like a man who didnt have the answers to the questions been asked IMO and so he came out that statement and that is not good enough for a man on 1.5million

As you say , we all find his tactics bizarre and frustrating but when they are the failing alot of the time then questions have to be asked and unfortunately Trap is starting to look like a manager with very few answers

[paul_oshea]

Either way, whatever was meant, for a man of his experience and salary, he should not be coming out saying something like that or in that tone after a game. I know it shows how upset he was with drawing the game, but a level of professionalism should be expected for someone so expensive.

[back of the net]

The group goal difference can decide who finishes where in the group. Then the team who finishes second will be judged by their points tally, minus that of the bottom team. e.g. 18 total (- 6 v Faroes) = 12 playoff points. Those 12 points are then used against all the other group runners-up to decide the best 8 that qualify. Atm, we have 5 playoff points going into September. We finished 8th of the 8 teams 4 years ago. There's plenty of time left to get more.
.

So whats your expectations for the number of points we will get from the remaining games and do you think it will be good enough to get us into the playoffs?



Goal difference means absolutely nothing unless 2nd and below in the group finish level on points, and our fate in any WCQ has not been decided by goal difference since 1982. The closest it came to since then was in 1994, as the number of Goals Scored was required to separate us from Denmark. We scored 4 more than them after 12 games.

Referencing Past History means absolutely nothing in all honesty

[DeLorean]

Either way, whatever was meant, for a man of his experience and salary, he should not be coming out saying something like that or in that tone after a game. I know it shows how upset he was with drawing the game, but a level of professionalism should be expected for someone so expensive.

What he said doesn't bother me. I feel the majority that keep harping on about it are taking him out of context and, even if they're not, I still don't think it was that ridiculous a statement. It's slightly different but managers at the smaller clubs say they can't compete with the big boys all the time, I never hear them being ridiculed for not daring to dream or insulting the club's fine tradition.

Yeah back of the net I suppose I'm just weighing everything up and coming out on Trap's side overall. I'm not defending all of his selections or tactics, far from it.

[Stuttgart88]

I think DeLorean has made his point very well and I think it may well just be that he said what he said in response to aggressive questioning by TOD and not armed with great command of English, though I'm sure Manuela could have helped. However, I just can't help feel that it betrays a lack of belief in his players, the same lack of belief that made him feel that even despite proving we could play in Stockholm that hoofball was the only way to beat Austria at home.

[Yard of Pace]

Trap also told us we have absolutely no right to think we can compete with Germany after they thrashed us in October. Now, that may be true, but the manager should never ever say it, imo. After all, we have to go to Germany and play them again.

To continue the Limerick analogy, we are playing Tipp in June. All things considered, they should hockey us. They hammered Dublin yesterday, who beat us a couple of weeks ago. BUT......"Limerick never feared Tipp" is the mantra. On the day, the players will rip into their opponents, they'll show no fear, they'll fully believe they can win, and if we do lose, I would bet it won't be an embarrassing loss. And that's all I ask of the them, and this Irish team.

[gastric]

Niall Quinn gives his opinion on Trap's reign.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/if-i-played-for-traps-retreating-army-id-be-furious-niall-quinn-29217623.html

[CraftyToePoke]

Niall Quinn gives his opinion on Trap's reign.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/if-i-played-for-traps-retreating-army-id-be-furious-niall-quinn-29217623.html

Have to say I agree with all of that, well put by Quinn.

[mypost]

I honestly think he was just saying to himself "ah just f*** off Donoghue, not this sh*t again" but hadn't the patience at that moment to dress it up, so he just went with the first thing that came into his head which was a bit of a reality lesson to Tony. The reality being that we're still in contention and, although it could be a lot better, any other manager is unlikely to have done as well results-wise over the past few years. I think Trap has always, in normal circumstances, tried to explain why he has chosen a certain way of playing and tried to justify what certain players can bring or certain players cannot.

Tbh, it's not a big surprise he reacts, when the central theme to every interview pre-and post game for the past 3 years has been. "This is your last game. Do you think you should go? Should you consider your position?" There are only so many ways you can answer the question.

Other nationalities must think the idea of firing the coach of a very mediocre side when he's level with the opposition halfway through a campaign is absolutely nuts.


So whats your expectations for the number of points we will get from the remaining games and do you think it will be good enough to get us into the playoffs?

It's impossible to make any concrete predictions about playoff permutations until after September at the earliest.

[paul_oshea]

Its not for the last 3 years that's a whole load of crap.

You take only half the facts when you argue your case, ignoring certain posts and certain counter-arguments to yours. You selectively debate the points you want or think that suit your argument. Unless you argue point for point, fact for fact, its an imbalanced and distorted view. Actually I think your view is distorted and imbalanced, that's the problem here.

I mean this is just ridiculous:

"Other nationalities must think the idea of firing the coach of a very mediocre side when he's level with the opposition halfway through a campaign is absolutely nuts. "

[mypost]

Have to say I agree with all of that, well put by Quinn.

So how well did the going all out to finish the game when winning, work out in 95, Niall?

[SkStu]

Niall Quinn gives his opinion on Trap's reign.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/if-i-played-for-traps-retreating-army-id-be-furious-niall-quinn-29217623.html

Once Mother Teresa starts criticising you, you know youre in trouble.

[CraftyToePoke]

So how well did the going all out to finish the game when winning, work out in 95, Niall?

I'm not Niall.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'm not Niall.
Nice try, Niall. Either answer the question or get back on your spaceship.

[Crosby87]

Is Toepuke really Niall?
Lets see...Crafty, was/were Niall (you?) born on Oct 6th 1966, Oct 9th 1966, Oct 19th 1966 or Oct 16th 1966?

[Spudulika]

Conveniently ignored by the Irish meeja.....the Austrian players could control the football, could pass the football, made space on the ball and were comfortable in possession. Largely the Irish players were the opposite. It's not due to the coach, it's due to the largely poor quality training gained by players in the UK and Ireland where the emphasis is on hoof and run, win at all costs (from too young an age) and poor club coaching. It will never be addressed as it's inconvenient to do so.

[Stuttgart88]

We were comfortable in possession in Sweden though - at least by our standards. That was only 5 days earlier. Trap set us out to play hoofball from the start.

[DeLorean]

Its not for the last 3 years that's a whole load of crap.


You're right. For the first two years it was...


"Why aren't you playing Andy Reid Trap?, he's world class you know"

"Why don't you contact Stephen Ireland Trap?, I'm sure he'd come back if he was asked"

"Why don't you try other systems Trap? we seem to get overrun in midfield"


Then when it turned out that Andy Reid didn't even have the dedication to stay in shape, Stephen Ireland was a one season wonder and complete plonker and we qualified for a major tournament without both and with the dated system it changed to....


"Why aren't you playing Wes Hoolahan Trap?, he's world class you know"

"Why don't you contact Darron Gibson Trap?, I'm sure he'd come back if he was asked"

"Why don't you try other systems Trap? we still seem to get overrun in midfield"

[Supreme feet]

The good performance against Sweden nullifies the attitude of 'ah, sure, we only have Northern Ireland/Scotland-standard players who can't pass even if they tried, hoofball is the only possible route to being competitive'. Against Austria, Trap changed the both the personnel and the system to revert to a failed default, and we paid the price.

Kerr and Staunton did exactly the same. Their high-water-marks in terms of performance came, respectively, against France (2004) and Slovakia (2007), when we looked like genuinely decent, competitive sides, capable of keeping possession and creating chances. However, when players became unavailable, both Kerr and Staunton panicked, and instead of keeping with a promising gameplan and replacing players like-for-like in their roles, they reverted to a failed philosophy of 'get our favourite players on the pitch, regardless of position - just fit them in somewhere'. There was no consistency, no definite gameplan, and we inevitably messed up by dropping points against lower-seeded opposition. Both managers paid for it with their jobs.

I see a big similarity with Trap's decisions in the last few games, in terms of refusing to learn the lessons from good performances.

[Crosby87]

Trap is 150/1 on Paddy Power to be the next permanent manager of Arsenal.

[Charlie Darwin]

Trap is 150/1 on Paddy Power to be the next permanent manager of Arsenal.
This is exactly the sort of irrelevant interjection this thread needed.

[Stuttgart88]

"Why aren't you playing Wes Hoolahan Trap?, he's world class you know"

"Why don't you contact Darron Gibson Trap?, I'm sure he'd come back if he was asked"

"Why don't you try other systems Trap? we still seem to get overrun in midfield"The sarcasm totally undermines any point you're trying to make. Nobody thinks Hoolahan is world class but he's a cut above most of what we have at the moment. He could play a role that complements other decent players we have and that would add bodies in midfield, which Keane did to good effect in Sweden. Trap looked a gift horse in the mouth after that game and thought he was being clever playing Sammon, as if he was a hidden gem he'd unearthed by actually bothering to go and watch a game. Meanwhile Kevin Doyle was dropped and a series of incomprensible decisions from the sideline gave Austria a needless advantage. I'm examining my own sanity because of who said it, but Niall Quinn's tactical assessment was bang on.

[DeLorean]

The sarcasm totally undermines any point you're trying to make.

The only point I was trying to make was the constant line of questioning Trap has repeatedly had to answer since taking over. It was a dig at the agenda driven journalists and Dunphy-types, not the average fans like ourselves who believe Hoolahan should be in the team. I'd love to see him start myself and my heart dropped to the pit of my stomach when I saw Sammon in the teamsheet against Austria, with all due respect to the guy.

We can't be constructive in every post :)

[Stuttgart88]

I agree. The Reid and Stephen Ireland stories drove me mental. There were far more pertinent issues to focus on in Trap's first 3 years or so. As it happens I'm happy to give credit to Trap where it's due and even despite some odd decisions and valid criticisms in the past, I don't think any really ever led us to drop points that we shouldn't have dropped. For example, I thought we gave Slovakia away a right go but were unlucky to only draw 2-2. I thought we were timid at home to Slovakia, but then again Keane missed a sitter on 89 minutes and I think Dunne might have missed an even later chance.

I thought we lacked balls against Bulgaria at home but in hindsight we coasted into second place. I defended our sitting off teams by pointing out that it was a very positive feature of Trap's tenure that we tended to score early. Trap likes to defend a lead rather than build on it, so if we score early we tend to play most of the game playing tentatively.

Why I criticise Trap heavily in this instance is that we blew it against Austria. Yes, some players made individual errors but: Trap ignored lessons from 5 days earlier and also from the Poland game. Trap reverted to hoofball. Trap picked and persisted with a donkey. Trap made dumb substitutions. I'm livid with how Trap conducted operations for the Austria game, and unlike some I'd have had grave concerns had we won 2-1. I'd have been delighted with the win but concerned that Trap was happy with how it was won and that'd he'd stick with the template.

[Bungle]

QUOTE=Spudulika;1680880]Conveniently ignored by the Irish meeja.....the Austrian players could control the football, could pass the football, made space on the ball and were comfortable in possession. Largely the Irish players were the opposite. It's not due to the coach, it's due to the largely poor quality training gained by players in the UK and Ireland where the emphasis is on hoof and run, win at all costs (from too young an age) and poor club coaching. It will never be addressed as it's inconvenient to do so.[/QUOTE]

I do believe it is down to the coach to a large degree. We don't have any world class players in our squad, but we do have a core of good/very good premier league players in our team. McCarthy, Long, McGeady, Coleman and Hoolahan are all technically gifted players. McClean, Walters and Wilson less so, but they bring other vital qualities to the team. In the case of McCarthy and Coleman, we have two lads that will go right to the very top in my opinion.

We have players that can play football and are technically proficient. Man for man, we are a better team than Austria (although we don't have a player anywhere near the class of Alaba) and at least on a par with Sweden. The core issue is that Trap doesn't believe in Irish players and is reluctant to play guys like Hoolahan that do offer us the ability to play a different way. His ridiculous decision to not play McCarthy in Stockholm summed all that is wrong with him (thankfully Whelan suffered an injury and macca played).

The players at Dortmund or Bayern are on a different level to our lads, but I stand by my opinion that as a team, we have a core of players every bit as technical, if not more so than Austria, Bulgaria, Sweden, and many other of the 2/3rd/4th seeded countries we tend to compete with to qualify for tournaments.

[Bungle]

Don't see what the Premiership factor has to do with anything. Norway, Finland, Bulgaria, Iceland have had players in the EPL. What have they done internationally in recent years?

The inescapable reality is that our players have limited technical ability and our country usually fails to make tournaments, never mind get the opportunity to face three of the world's best sides in it. If you want to see our players true standing in the international game, you only have to travel roughly 200 kilometres up the road to realise where we really would be these days, without one of the game's greatest ever coaches in charge of our team.

Comparing us to Northern Ireland, is probably akin to comparing us to England. For me that is a poor comparison. The North have 2-3 good/very good players like Evans, Brunt and McCauley. To be fair, we don't have a player with the big match experience of Johnny Evans. The rest play in the lower leagues or for the less celebrated teams in the SPL. Our team is predominantly a premier league based team. On paper that is a massive difference.

[Charlie Darwin]

Surely John O'Shea has more big match experience than Evans.

[Olé Olé]

Surely John O'Shea has more big match experience than Evans.

Of course he does. Ignoring O'Shea's achievements is cool. It's cool in the same way that saying Carrick and Evans have been integral to United's success this season, in the same way that it wasn't cool in prior years.

[Crosby87]

I miss those United days.
http://i.imgur.com/pYdk6.gif

[back of the net]

Trap wont be in the Ireland job for long............just been nominated for Italian President
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpuVyY_RFRU&feature=youtu.be

[Crosby87]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRzIpSXCk8M9lkdRJ4XQ1FkaEbXWMzdv QJR3gAFggOa2L2qRbNk

Vote A me. I make-a da tres rula. Tomato.
une: vota me.
de: no-a fats. no a fat the women. no a fat the anyone, messy, no a listen. Andy Reid he no a listen. Exile. Elba, Napolean. Fat.
Tres: Pick how a I want da ministera. Pick da playa. Mess the Darwin, Mess the Geysir. Stutts almost hava heart coronary. Me no a care. Do what's bessa da team. No cara dumb fan. Da Italy. Stubborn. Still gotta chanca. No worry. Some lika.
Da Doc He-a love me a. Some say he-a Sledge-a. He no say.

[mypost]

We have players that can play football and are technically proficient. Man for man, we are a better team than Austria (although we don't have a player anywhere near the class of Alaba) and at least on a par with Sweden. The core issue is that Trap doesn't believe in Irish players and is reluctant to play guys like Hoolahan that do offer us the ability to play a different way. His ridiculous decision to not play McCarthy in Stockholm summed all that is wrong with him (thankfully Whelan suffered an injury and macca played).

The players at Dortmund or Bayern are on a different level to our lads, but I stand by my opinion that as a team, we have a core of players every bit as technical, if not more so than Austria, Bulgaria, Sweden, and many other of the 2/3rd/4th seeded countries we tend to compete with to qualify for tournaments.

When I first started watching our games, we played 4-4-2 and lumped the ball 40 yards up the pitch. These days, we play 4-4-2 and lump the ball 40 yards up the pitch. In those days, we dressed it up as "put 'em under pressure". Today, it's spun as "dinosaur football, giving possession away".

Our players don't have technical ability. Our coaching system in this country doesn't encourage it. We want to play the British style of football, and now the overall quality of player is decreasing, with little European experience at club level, and some who can't get regular games every week. So sticking to our 4-4-2, and lump it 40 yards up the pitch is usually the most effective for us.


The North have 2-3 good/very good players like Evans, Brunt and McCauley. To be fair, we don't have a player with the big match experience of Johnny Evans. The rest play in the lower leagues or for the less celebrated teams in the SPL. Our team is predominantly a premier league based team. On paper that is a massive difference.

Right, so where do Millwall, Wolves, Derby, and Leeds play their football? And there's more of where they come from too.

The Brits up there are absolutely hopeless. They have someone in charge who goes to games every week, yet can't win a game. They've been a laughing stock for the past 25 years, and have no prospect of ever getting to another tournament. I don't think their way of doing things is a model we should aspire to.

Returning to Quinn's piece, his "analysis" is laughable. This is someone who had his chance and lost every single game going. Trap has won everything in the game, got us 26 results in 29 qualifiers, and hauled this team to the biggest stage of the European game. Frankly, Quinn really isn't in a position to advise him on what he should do.

[Bungle]

When I first started watching our games, we played 4-4-2 and lumped the ball 40 yards up the pitch. These days, we play 4-4-2 and lump the ball 40 yards up the pitch. In those days, we dressed it up as "put 'em under pressure". Today, it's spun as "dinosaur football, giving possession away".

Our players don't have technical ability. Our coaching system in this country doesn't encourage it. We want to play the British style of football, and now the overall quality of player is decreasing, with little European experience at club level, and some who can't get regular games every week. So sticking to our 4-4-2, and lump it 40 yards up the pitch is usually the most effective for us.



Right, so where do Millwall, Wolves, Derby, and Leeds play their football? And there's more of where they come from too.

The Brits up there are absolutely hopeless. They have someone in charge who goes to games every week, yet can't win a game. They've been a laughing stock for the past 25 years, and have no prospect of ever getting to another tournament. I don't think their way of doing things is a model we should aspire to.

Returning to Quinn's piece, his "analysis" is laughable. This is someone who had his chance and lost every single game going. Trap has won everything in the game, got us 26 results in 29 qualifiers, and hauled this team to the biggest stage of the European game. Frankly, Quinn really isn't in a position to advise him on what he should do.

Mypost you are entitled to your opinion. It is a football forum after all :)

Okay, our number 1 plays with Millwall. Most of the rest of our starting line up is premier league based players and starters at that. You mention Leeds/Derby? I'm guessing you are talking about Paul Green and Sammon. Paul Green should be nowhere near our starting line up (despite an excellent performance in Sweden). That is precisely the point of most posters on here who question trap. Guys with real talent like McCarthy can be dropped for the likes of Green. Sammon likewise should be nowhere near our squad, let alone our first eleven. Likewise, he can often be talked up by Trap above good strikers like Long and Walters. The other Derby player is Hendrick, who in my opinion is going to be an excellent player for us. Good on Trap calling him into the Poland squad.

It has become increasingly trendy among many to mock the premiership, just as it has been trendy for many barstoolers to mock the League of Ireland over the past 20 or 30 years. However, the league is one of the best in the world, despite being badly overtaken by the Germans and Spanish this year, and Premiership teams don't have Irish players in them, because they like us, they have us there, because we have lads that can do a job for them. How many players do Austria have playing at that level week in week out (bar a few I reckon we have a fair few more). I would argue that Stoke or Norwich offers more big game experience to a player on a week to week basis than say Austria Vienna etc, even taking into account not having the chance to play in the Champions League/Europa League.

As an aside to how poor we are technically, I would challenge you to go down to watch St Kevin's and Crumlin United schoolboy teams. I think you would come back very refreshed that alot is happening at grassroots level that is right. Indeed, the less famous clubs like Lucan United, Templeogue United and Portmarnock are also producing some fabulous players. There is alot that is good in our game and I think that we need to have a bit more self-esteem about our players, especially the younger ones. Of course, we have a long history of producing very technically gifted players, but like England with Waddle, Hoddle and Barnes, we have tended not to use them very well.

[mypost]

Okay, our number 1 plays with Millwall. Most of the rest of our starting line up is premier league based players and starters at that. You mention Leeds/Derby? I'm guessing you are talking about Paul Green and Sammon. Paul Green should be nowhere near our starting line up (despite an excellent performance in Sweden). That is precisely the point of most posters on here who question trap. Guys with real talent like McCarthy can be dropped for the likes of Green. Sammon likewise should be nowhere near our squad, let alone our first eleven. Likewise, he can often be talked up by Trap above good strikers like Long and Walters. The other Derby player is Hendrick, who in my opinion is going to be an excellent player for us. Good on Trap calling him into the Poland squad.

It has become increasingly trendy among many to mock the premiership. However, the league is one of the best in the world, despite being badly overtaken by the Germans and Spanish this year, and Premiership teams don't have Irish players in them, because they like us, they have us there, because we have lads that can do a job for them. How many players do Austria have playing at that level week in week out (bar a few I reckon we have a fair few more). I would argue that Stoke or Norwich offers more big game experience to a player on a week to week basis than say Austria Vienna etc, even taking into account not having the chance to play in the Champions League/Europa League.

Norwich haven't played in Europe for 20 years. They faced 4-4-2 Stoke last weekend. The decisive goal came from the 40 yard lump, the flick on, and the tap in. That's how Whelan and Walters earn their living every year, and the kind of football we Irish grow up playing and watching. Kevin Doyle faces the prospect of even lower league football than Conor Sammon next season, yet Sammon is w/o and Doyle is championed. We currently have one player that plays CL football, which isn't even in England. There's no Alaba or Ibrahimovic for us to call upon, but you and others tell me our players are as good, if not better than the opposition in our group, and if we can't match them, it's Trap's fault.

Many will only realise how well he's done for us when he is gone, when the real ability of the players is shown up, and we are finally at the neighbours level.

[tetsujin1979]

Many will only realise how well he's done for us when he is gone, when the real ability of the players is shown up, and we are finally at the neighbours level.
This is something I've been thinking myself, and we might not realise it until we lose an away qualifier, or finish 3rd or lower in a qualifying series
be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

[ifk101]

We are currently 4th in our group. Sweden in third have a game in hand on us. Germany are out of sight. The grass isn't always greener but we're standing in muck as it is.

[Stuttgart88]

Kevin Doyle faces the prospect of even lower league football than Conor Sammon next season, yet Sammon is w/o and Doyle is championed. Simple question: in all seriousness do you think Sammon is anywhere near as good as Doyle?