Marc Wilson

[geysir]

I don't think what O'Neill said is mean't for the likes of Gibson, Wilson or McClean, it's mean't for the footballers who might be thinking to declare to the FAI. In fact the Belfast Telly does its level best to twist a few quotes into an O'Neill rant at the FAI.
Though Wilson is quite entitled to tell him to f'ck off and not cast aspersions on any aspects of his international 'career', things he knows nothing about.

O'Neill SLAMS FAI (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/northern-ireland-manager-oneill-slams-football-association-of-ireland-in-eligibility-row-29126959.html)

[ArdeeBhoy]

What, exactly, is the point?

I can understand Wilson being annoyed by what he likely sees as O'Neill's wind-ups. That said, claiming that a player from NI's motivation in deciding to who to play for is none of the NI manager's business is a bit silly.

Not everyone shares Wilson's single-mindedness- if they did, international teams wouldn't have so many players who've never actually lived in their represented countries.

Maybe Off the Ball and RTE are deliberately stoking this story because they think O'Neill ranting is good copy. Alternatively, the lack of a counter to him might suggest that other journalists and pundits just aren't that interested. Or possibly that some might even agree with him.

Put another way, Wilson's eligibility to play for more than one international side is straightforward enough. But it's neither fundamental (in the sense of being some great issue of principle), nor something that is inherently beyond comment by those with an interest, like O'Neill.

[Gather round]

Unfortunately, [O'Neill] doesn't seem to understand Wilson's single-mindedness, as you noted, and will therefore forever be baffled by players who would treasure one cap for ROI or England or Scotland over 50 caps for a country they only half-identify with. To him, 50 is a much bigger number than 1, and who'd choose 1 when they can have 50


I don't think what O'Neill said is meant for the likes of Gibson, Wilson or McClean, it's mean't for the footballers who might be thinking to declare to the FAI. In fact the Belfast Telly does its level best to twist a few quotes into an O'Neill rant at the FAI

Aye, fair points both.

[Charlie Darwin]

Does this need a correction?
No, I meant Wilson's problem with what O'Neill said, I didn't mean he has a problem in the negative sense.

[osarusan]

TFor O'Neill to bring the notion of career caps into the equation, further claim to have sympathy for what he perceives to have been poor career choices made by switching players and then presume that some of these players must surely regret their decisions is to completely misunderstand the motivations of Irish nationals born north of the border who declare for the FAI.


Are you saying that any Irish national born north of the border who declares for the FAI can only have made that decision based on national allegiance? There cannot be any other motivation?

You will not entertain the notion that any of them made the decision based on what they see as a good career move?

[DannyInvincible]

Are saying that any Irish national born north of the border who declares for the FAI can only have made that decision based on national allegiance? There cannot be any other motivation?

You will not entertain the notion that any of them made the decision based on what they see as a good career move?

Certainly, there may be other motivations. I'm pretty sure Eunan O'Kane stated his decision was a career choice, although whether that was to limit any potential criticism or the misplaced accusations of "sectarianism" he might have expected from certain quarters, who's to know for sure?

The likes of Wilson, Gibson, McClean, Duffy and Kearns all explained their reasoning as being rooted in a cultural affiliation with their national team, however, so it's no surprise Wilson felt somewhat insulted by O'Neill mentioning his name last week, as if to suggest he was an example of a player who'd made a career choice in terms of deciding what international side to represent, and a poor one at that. I would think most players from the north who opt for the FAI would be of the same thinking as these players as it would be difficult to argue that declaring for the FAI at the expense of the IFA would be the greater guarantee of game-time.

[ifk101]

I would think most players from the north who opt for the FAI would be of the same thinking as these players as it would be difficult to argue that declaring for the FAI at the expense of the IFA would be the greater guarantee of game-time.

True. A "good career move" at club level is moving to a team offering greater first team playing opportunities. If we apply this to international football, and assume players chose their football association as a career choice, representing the Northern Irish FA would be the "good career move" as there is weak competition for team places.

[DannyInvincible]

Ultimately, we won't know for absolutely certain what the motivation of every single player might be. Some may see opting for the team they perceive to be the better of the two or the team with the greater chance of qualification for major tournaments as a "good career move", but I just think it less likely that such motivations would be paramount for most players, not only because it doesn't really add up - competition for places being greater in FAI squads - but as is also evident from the reasons given by those high-profile players from the north who have declared for the FAI and subsequently been questioned about their choice by the media.

[osarusan]

it would be difficult to argue that declaring for the FAI at the expense of the IFA would be the greater guarantee of game-time.McClean wouldn't have much chance of an appearance at 2012 for NI, would he?


True. A "good career move" at club level is moving to a team offering greater first team playing opportunities. Or offering them the possibility to play at tournaments they wouldn't otherwise get to play at?

[osarusan]

The likes of Wilson, Gibson, McClean, Duffy and Kearns all explained their reasoning as being rooted in a cultural affiliation with their national team


but as is also evident from the reasons given by those high-profile players from the north who have declared for the FAI and subsequently been questioned about their choice by the media.
Without wanting to open a can of worms, what else would you expect them to say, in that situation? Even if they did declare for Ireland because they just wanted to play at a higher level and qualify for (more) tournaments (and I've no reason to believe this is the case), they're hardly likely to tell the truth.

[tetsujin1979]

Or offering them the possibility to play at tournaments they wouldn't otherwise get to play at?
There's no "right" answer to which would give you a better career move. Declare for the North and you'll get probably get more caps at international level, which can help you move on to a bigger club (e.g. David Healy), play for the Republic and you'll have a better chance of playing in an international tournament, but might not get as many caps.

[ifk101]

Or offering them the possibility to play at tournaments they wouldn't otherwise get to play at?

Because we are regular qualifiers for tournaments and the North aren't?

[osarusan]

There's no "right" answer to which would give you a better career move. Declare for the North and you'll get probably get more caps at international level, which can help you move on to a bigger club (e.g. David Healy), play for the Republic and you'll have a better chance of playing in an international tournament, but might not get as many caps.
Agreed, which is why I don't think the argument that a declaration for ROI can't have a pragmatic motivation isn't as compelling as others think.

[ifk101]

Agreed, which is why I don't think the argument that a declaration for ROI can't have a pragmatic motivation isn't as compelling as others think.

Shouldn't we be seeing a relative even spread of careerists from both sides of the Northern Ireland community then?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Because we are regular qualifiers for tournaments and the North aren't?

Make that, irregular and non-existent.

[paul_oshea]

Alan kernaghan(kinda) fits osarusans argument. As usual there is always one exception.

I think Osarusan is suggesting those of a nationalist, and/or catholic background might not be bothered about playing for or not playing for NI, but see ROI as a stepping stone to enhance their career. But there is no chance of someone from the other divide declaring. Which leads me onto the next point.....


Shouldn't we be seeing a relative even spread of careerists from both sides of the Northern Ireland community then?

I think that should be the end of this silly discussion now.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Aye, we're underestimating the paranoia factor. And that's just the 'reasonable' unionists!
:eek:

[geysir]

Agreed, which is why I don't think the argument that a declaration for ROI can't have a pragmatic motivation isn't as compelling as others think.
Has anyone argued that a pragmatic motivation for declaring for the FAI doesn't exist? The exposure has and will benefit players but it's a normal effect from playing intl football.
The northern born players who have declared for the FAI can speak (and have spoken) for themselves. One can be cynical, but just because there is a premise to be cynical, doesn't make it so.
Just how many different motivations exist that can play a part in a northern born players decision to declare for the FAI?
And out of all those motivations, national identity, pride, ultimate ambition, desire, 'career move' etc etc
what % do you want to give to 'career move' playing a part in a players' strategy in their choice of national team.

[paul_oshea]

Thats a good point geysir, its a percentages game, its all about percentages in life too. There could be a percentage of it that goes that way, but I think the pressure, the situation and some amount of stress would it really make it worth it just for potential career-prospects? I mean its not like declaring for Brazil.

[osarusan]

Has anyone argued that a pragmatic motivation for declaring for the FAI doesn't exist? The exposure has and will benefit players but it's a normal effect from playing intl football.
The northern born players who have declared for the FAI can speak (and have spoken) for themselves. One can be cynical, but just because there is a premise to be cynical, doesn't make it so.
Just how many different motivations exist that can play a part in a northern born players decision to declare for the FAI?
And out of all those motivations, national identity, pride, ultimate ambition, desire, 'career move' etc etc
what % do you want to give to 'career move' playing a part in a players' strategy in their choice of national team.

Danny suggested that O'Neill's comments on career caps and so on were ignorant of the thinking and motivation of NI-born players declaring for NI. I don't think such a blanket statement can be made about the motivation of such players. Danny has clarified his position since then, I would say.


I agree with you that his comments are more aimed at those who may be considering with which association their future lies with, rather than those who have already made the decision. But it was daft to mention Wilson's name (or any name, really).

I don't know or care about what percentage of any motivation makes up a player's decision either way. I was questioning Danny's original position that national allegiance lay at the heart of all these declarations and that any suggestion otherwise was an ignorant misrepresentation.

[SwanVsDalton]

I was questioning Danny's original position that national allegiance lay at the heart of all these declarations and that any suggestion otherwise was an ignorant misrepresentation.

Don't want to speak for Danny but my view would be if his original position appears a 'blanket statement', personally I'd see that as a response-in-kind - the NI media, managers (O'Neill and Worthington) and IFA have constantly labelled Gibson, McClean, Wilson et al as careerists. There is rarely any consideration of them actually wanting to play for their country.

And I take that line quite personally. Irrational it may be but if Northern born players are careerist glory hunters for moving south, what does that make Northern born fans?

Fair to say I'm a bit over-sensitive on issues of nationality (common problem north of the border). But ultimately it's been all too easy for the NI media in particular to marginalise legitimate national choice (a sensitive issue) in favour of negative character studies - Gibson (careerist), Wilson (opportunist), McClean (careerist, opportunist and sectarian).

Some of this sniping has been warranted (hi James) but all of it? And all of it to the total detriment of a simple truth ie these guys want to play ball for their country? No way.

So even if the pragmatism in switching north-to-south is evident, I'd suggest if anybody seems to be ignoring it's just because we're compelled to even the debate a tad.

*on-topic* Hope Wilson belts another 30 yarder in the top corner in Friday, probably our best chance of grabbing a goal...*on-topic*

[SolitudeRed]

Don't want to speak for Danny but my view would be if his original position appears a 'blanket statement', personally I'd see that as a response-in-kind - the NI media, managers (O'Neill and Worthington) and IFA have constantly labelled Gibson, McClean, Wilson et al as careerists. There is rarely any consideration of them actually wanting to play for their country.

And I take that line quite personally. Irrational it may be but if Northern born players are careerist glory hunters for moving south, what does that make Northern born fans?

Fair to say I'm a bit over-sensitive on issues of nationality (common problem north of the border). But ultimately it's been all too easy for the NI media in particular to marginalise legitimate national choice (a sensitive issue) in favour of negative character studies - Gibson (careerist), Wilson (opportunist), McClean (careerist, opportunist and sectarian).

Some of this sniping has been warranted (hi James) but all of it? And all of it to the total detriment of a simple truth ie these guys want to play ball for their country? No way.

So if the pragmatism in switching north-to-south is apparent, I'd suggest it's from an impulse to even the debate a tad.

*on-topic* Hope Wilson belts another 30 yarder in the top corner in Friday, probably our best chance of grabbing a goal...*on-topic*

I guess its ironic that they are willing to slate players such as Wilson and Gibson while players such as McGinn who have went on record as saying that they are Republic fans and have chosen to play for NI even though its not the team they identify with the most have never been accused of being careerist or opportunistic or had aspersions cast upon their decisions by the likes of the BelTel and Newsletter.

[geysir]

*on-topic* Hope Wilson belts another 30 yarder in the top corner in Friday, probably our best chance of grabbing a goal...*on-topic*
You mean his belter that was slightly off target before getting a beneficial deflection :)
No complaints if he manages another.
Off all our players, he has the best ability to stroke the ball around accurately across the pitch.

[BonnieShels]

Thats a good point geysir, its a percentages game, its all about percentages in life too. There could be a percentage of it that goes that way, but I think the pressure, the situation and some amount of stress would it really make it worth it just for potential career-prospects? I mean its not like declaring for Brazil.

Niall McGinn and Paddy McCourt declared for Not Brazil!


You mean his belter that was slightly off target before getting a beneficial deflection :)
No complaints if he manages another.
Off all our players, he has the best ability to stroke the ball around accurately across the pitch.

He has the best ability to stroke balls off our players?

Matron!



I'm irrationally petrified for Friday. It's been eating me all week. I just can't visualise in a realistic sense, where a result will come from.

Though I'll take a rebound of Conor Sammon's ar5e in the dying minutes.

[ArdeeBhoy]

So is he...
;)

[geysir]

That was bad, the only solace is that it could have been worse, I could have been busted by Paul.

[DannyInvincible]

Don't want to speak for Danny but my view would be if his original position appears a 'blanket statement', personally I'd see that as a response-in-kind - the NI media, managers (O'Neill and Worthington) and IFA have constantly labelled Gibson, McClean, Wilson et al as careerists. There is rarely any consideration of them actually wanting to play for their country.

And I take that line quite personally. Irrational it may be but if Northern born players are careerist glory hunters for moving south, what does that make Northern born fans?

Fair to say I'm a bit over-sensitive on issues of nationality (common problem north of the border). But ultimately it's been all too easy for the NI media in particular to marginalise legitimate national choice (a sensitive issue) in favour of negative character studies - Gibson (careerist), Wilson (opportunist), McClean (careerist, opportunist and sectarian).

Some of this sniping has been warranted (hi James) but all of it? And all of it to the total detriment of a simple truth ie these guys want to play ball for their country? No way.

So even if the pragmatism in switching north-to-south is evident, I'd suggest if anybody seems to be ignoring it's just because we're compelled to even the debate a tad.

*on-topic* Hope Wilson belts another 30 yarder in the top corner in Friday, probably our best chance of grabbing a goal...*on-topic*

Couldn't have said it better myself. Perhaps my faith in these players' words and their talk of national allegiance being a primary motivating factor, amongst possible others (maybe secondary or not so secondary; I admit it would be naive to neglect acknowledging the possibility of their existence) is coloured by a certain empathy I possess for their situation and an understanding of their thinking that I feel I share due to my own family's northern background and my formative upbringing in and around Derry. I've also had the luxury of an insight into Shane Duffy's thinking from his cousin, a mutual friend.

People can be cynical and speculate, but, as you allude to, SvD, I almost take personal insult as well when these players are smeared as careerists. When I feel driven to defend their declared motivations against perceived aspersions, I half feel like I'm defending friends, family or even the whole Ireland-supporting community in the north against a snide accusation of glory-hunting. I support Ireland because I'm Irish (that being the Irish national identity); just like so many throughout the north who identify similarly. I don't necessarily say that out of some sense of insecurity or over-sensitivity either; my own particular birthplace isn't under "cultural dispute", after all. It just grates with me that the Irish national identity of those north of the border is still so widely dismissed or sidelined as bogus or as some sort of gimmick, especially a decade and a half after it was accorded official recognition in the Good Friday Agreement.

[Charlie Darwin]

Are footballers any less likely to have strong feelings about their nationality than anybody else? I think that's why I find the 'careerist' angle troubling - I just can't buy into the idea that a lot of footballers are out there calculating and making these perfectly rational business decisions. I'd say in particular for footballers, who'd tend to be from lower-income areas where the troubles are most vociferous, they are just making decisions based on where their heart lies. Of course there are others who do make calculated decisions for their careers - and maybe once they're living in England and making a bit of money they get a little more pragmatic - but I think sometimes it is only fair to just take people at face value.

[gastric]

Are footballers any less likely to have strong feelings about their nationality than anybody else? I think that's why I find the 'careerist' angle troubling - I just can't buy into the idea that a lot of footballers are out there calculating and making these perfectly rational business decisions. I'd say in particular for footballers, who'd tend to be from lower-income areas where the troubles are most vociferous, they are just making decisions based on where their heart lies. Of course there are others who do make calculated decisions for their careers - and maybe once they're living in England and making a bit of money they get a little more pragmatic - but I think sometimes it is only fair to just take people at face value.

It all depends on the individual. Some would be calculating, many would go with their heart. What I hate as an argument is the one about commitment to the cause and that unless you are emotionally commited you won't play well. I can't ever remember a game when players didn't try try their best. Yes players have bad games, seem anonymous possibly, but actually not make much effort, can't say I have seen this.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Going back to my serious Sunday Lge days, one of our lads played for 'Bosnia' before they were an independent country. Somehow I don't think he was a 'careerist'...or a 'glory hunter'.
He just wanted to represent his identity.

[nigel-harps1954]

Though I'll take a rebound of Conor Sammon's ar5e in the dying minutes.

And....?

[Charlie Darwin]

This thread has been way too sexy today. I blame geysir.

[geysir]

It's an ominous sign, there are occasions when the threat of doom looms large, the humankind under threat, turn towards procreation.
In WW2 England, the baby boom started in 1940.

[paul_oshea]

Surely its just to do with the fact they were inside more and there was less to do, meaning more time on their hands etc.

[geysir]

Surely its just to do with the fact they were inside more and there was less to do, meaning more time on their hands etc.
You still have a bit more to learn about women, Paul.

[Junior]

No TV's was always the explanation I was given in school.....

[geysir]

Video killed the radio star and TV killed the libido?

[paul_oshea]

Im sure some people use the TV ;)

[OwlsFan]

Much and all as I like Wilson, his crossing with his left foot was very poor last night. Some improvement needed there.

[Charlie Darwin]

Ward would have been a much better attacking option than Wilson and probably no worse in defence, but he blew his chance in the away fixture.

[EAFC_rdfl]

all round last night I thought he was poor, very noticeable that nearly every attempted pass by him didnt stick, handing possession back to the Kazakhs.

[DannyInvincible]

O'Neill on Wilson after Poland: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/international/2013/1120/487941-wilson/


He played at centre-back. He has little bit of presence about him and he can also play at left-back - I had a thought in my mind to push him over there to have a look.

But I put him into midfield because he's confident on the ball - maybe too confident on the ball and takes a risk or two - but he's a very fine footballer.

[paul_oshea]

Looks like O'Neills good judgement mirrors my good judgement.

To be honest I felt more at east with him at CB, but I'm not sure I would like to see him there permanently. He definitely is a bit wayward at times though and we saw it last night on the 18 yard line.

[tetsujin1979]

is his judgement deemed "good" because it mirrors yours?

[paul_oshea]

No, just two people with good judgement :D

[liamoo11]

is he playing centre half tonight?Hopefully he is as it is his future for us so comfortable on the ball stepping out

[Charlie Darwin]

It looks like he is, unless he's on the right and Cameron in the centre.

[liamoo11]

silky presence beside the rugged shawcross. Wood they both been at utd together?

[Charlie Darwin]

Wilson was never at Manchester United - he went straight from Lisburn to Portsmouth. Somebody on wikipedia has a lot to answer for.

[liamoo11]

Wilson was never at Manchester United - he went straight from Lisburn to Portsmouth. Somebody on wikipedia has a lot to answer for.

Is that true?Was he not part of that belfast academy for utd?