Eligibility proposal

[Blanchflower]

Neither compare with booing one of your own players does it?

They do compare - booing players for sectarian, political or religious reasons is wrong, in my view - whether they're on your own team or the other team. So all the incidents discussed are wrong, in my view.


Anyway, seeing that you are continuing to bang on about this subject (anti-Semitism at an Irish game), tell us what you know about what happened?
Israeli players being booed.

[Stuttgart88]

tell us what you know about what happened?

That's all I asked as well, no answer was forthcoming.

[Stuttgart88]

Israeli players being booed.oh come on. That's anti-semitic? Nothing to do with their keeper being a cheat?

[Blanchflower]

No I didn't. I meant the team does not appeal to both Unionist and Nationalist communites. I never mentioned anything about players being picked based on political leanings or inferred anything of the sort. .

You said the team only represented one community. I read that as meaning the team, ie. the players.

I accept this is not what you meant. I have noted that. And I have apologised. Case closed - surely?

[Blanchflower]

But to do that would mean changing Article 15, do you seriously expect them to do that?
No it wouldn't.

[Cowboy]

No it wouldn't.

It would, and to say otherwise demonstrates a lack of understanding of the statute on a par with the IFA's. FIFA's legal dept obviously realise that to remove a citizens right to play for his association would leave them wide open to legal challenge.

[janeymac]

This is pointless for three reasons. Many Catholic/Nationalist sporting administrators are involved in Gaelic sport, which I believe - although I could be wrong - far more clubs than rugby in the 6C. Secondly, these people would no more be interested in working for the IFA than suporting NI. Thirdly, seeing that the IFA didn't discriminate during the Stormont era, I'd doubt they'd start now.

I don't doubt that the IFA want to represent everyone in NI. What the IFA fail to see is that the steps they need to do to achieve this will ultimately alianate much of their traditional support.

Well, I was involved in a sporting organisation that wanted to encourage and promote more female involvement in the management of the sport (there was a high participation rate). It just went out of its way to recruit females to do jobs (chair sub-comittees etc.) until eventually about 40% on the elected executive were female.

[Blanchflower]

It would, and to say otherwise demonstrates a lack of understanding of the statute on a par with the IFA's. FIFA's legal dept obviously realise that to remove a citizens right to play for his association would leave them wide open to legal challenge.

FFS.:(

If you're a citizen of more than one country, you can't play for both. That's why Article 15 has been modified in several consequential set of rules.

There's no "right" for citizens to play for their country - e.g. FIFA has ruled that citizens who have changed nationality do not have the right to play for their new country unless they meet other criteria - e.g. There's no "right" to play for a country if you have already been capped by another country at "A" level.

So there's no reason why FIFA could not rule if it so wished that there was no "right" to play for a country if you weren't born there, lived there or have a parent or grandparent from there. (Indeed, it used to be the case, I think, that you had to be born or have a parent from somewhere to be eligible!)

There is no "legal challenge" open - FIFA has the right to make rules to govern the sport for which it is the governing body.

[EalingGreen]

Come on, the abuse that that Danish lad got was pure tounge in cheek comedy booing, as soon as the stadium announcer corrected his mistake the lad (Peter Madsen) started getting cheered every time he got the ball. There were Irish players getting booed for tackling him, in no way was it ugly and the media hyped it up beyond recognition to try and make a story of it. Maybe the media didn't get the joke but it was obvious that good natured banter was all it was in the crowd.

As for the anti Israel feelking at the game, I'd suggest that that was more down to the politics that country involves itself in (hence the number of Palestine flags at the game) and the constant play acting of their team, in particular their keeper, rather then any specific anti semitism.

As I understand it from reading this site, some of the spectators amongst the ROI fans booed what they thought was a Rangers player. The fact that they were mistaken, and the majority of the other fans took the pis s doesn't alter that fact, nor make it any different from e.g. a minority of NI fans booing John Hartson because he played for Celtic. It's the same mindset.

As for the Israeli game, I would direct you to the thread on this very forum for evidence that at least some of the abuse was anti-semitic in nature. And even had it been solely political, that does not make it any more acceptable than e.g. NI fans meting out politically-inspired abuse at some of their opponents.

And before anyone else jumps down my throat, I am not engaging in "whataboutery", either, merely making the point that all crowds have their "********ed" element to them, with NI's currently being no worse than most, indeed arguably better than many. Therefore, those people who harp on about outdated examples, or claim that the present situation is an active discouragement for Nationalists to support or partake, are either ignorant, prejudiced or in denial (or some combination of all three).

As for the Anthem and flag, I have no doubt that there are e.g. Basques, Galicians and Catalans in Spain who do not consider that the Spanish National Flag, official language or Anthem adequately reflects their political aspirations either, but is anyone seriously suggesting that they should have their separate identity recognised in some way when they play for Spain? Or that the absence of such recognition prevents them from doing so?

Similarly, for those people who suggested that the Tricolour and Soldiers Song might also be played at NI matches, to represent Nationalists in the team/crowd, would they be happy to hear GSTQ played and the NI flag flown at FAI games in Dublin? After all, should the FAI be allowed to pick players from throughout the island, including Northern Unionists as well as Northern Nationalists, it would only be fair to reciprocate. Unless, of course, they are not interested in picking Northern Unionists, in which case, which of the two Irish teams would be discriminatory on political grounds:
The FAI team which only picks players from the 26 and Nationalists from the 6, or the IFA team which picks players from the 6 irrespective of whether they are Nationalist or Unionist?

What people need to recognise is that irrespective of whatever determination FIFA arrives at over player eligibility, there are two Irish football teams on the island. And the one I follow has every bit as much right to exist (as well as a considerably longer history) as the other one. Moreover, as the team of Northern Ireland, playing for or supporting it does not make one "more British" or "less Irish", rather it just means you're from Northern Ireland, and a football fan/player.

Which is why, even if FIFA should allow it as a quid pro quo for the FAI picking Northern-born players, imo the IFA should have absolutely no interest in picking players from the Republic who do not have the necessary connection with NI.

[lopez]

They do compare - booing players for sectarian, political or religious reasons is wrong, in my view - whether they're on your own team or the other team. So all the incidents discussed are wrong, in my view.
So you'd consider booing opponents the same as booing your own? Quite a little member of the PC brigade aren't you.

Israeli players being booed.Israeli players being booed? That's what you know?And that's anti-semitism? :D:D

What are you? One of these over-sensitive Jews that if you criticise any bit of Israeli policy you are a self-hating Jew/anti-semite?

[Gather round]

I'm genuinely surprised and disappointed that you are not politically correct, Lopez ;)

Madre de dios...

[EalingGreen]

FIFA's legal dept obviously realise that to remove a citizens right to play for his association would leave them wide open to legal challenge.

And there's the rub. The whole point of the claim by the likes of D.Gibson is that they should be allowed to represent the ROI team because of their Nationality (i.e. country), not because of their Association. That is, one may be born with two or more Nationalities, but one cannot be born within the territory of more than one Association!

The Association which developed DG was the NISFA initially, then the IFA (Institute FC), and these were the bodies which governed and administered his early foorball career. Subsequently, it could be said to have been the English and Belgian FA's.

Frankly, until they first invited him to play for one of their teams, there is no way whatever that DG could claim that the FAI was "his" Association. Further, if FIFA decides that eligibility should be based solely on the concept of Nationality, irrespective of Member Association Territorial jurisdiction, it will need some way of reconciling the fact that there are presently 208(?) National Associations within its Membership, but only 186(?) "Nationalities", as defined by Membership of the UN.

[Cowboy]

FFS.:(

If you're a citizen of more than one country, you can't play for both. That's why Article 15 has been modified in several consequential set of rules.



It has been modified by way of annex to deal with players who were granted citizenship not by way of birth. FFS yourself, this has been discussed to death here, the annex does not apply

[Gather round]

I think not, Tuff. Given that three of the four 'GB' teams are against it.

I'm sure FIFA's post room appreciates your concern.

Agreed with ye re the Coulter dirge- but it would only be relevant (and giving you a good reason to moan) if it REPLACED your anthem, not just supplementing it.

[EalingGreen]

[QUOTE=EalingGreen;813730]

As for the Anthem and flag, I have no doubt that there are e.g. Basques, Galicians and Catalans in Spain who do not consider that the Spanish National Flag, official language or Anthem adequately reflects their political aspirations either, but is anyone seriously suggesting that they should have their separate identity recognised in some way when they play for Spain? Or that the absence of such recognition prevents them from doing so?


Er . . . . we have to stand for a Phil Coulter tune when the Ireland rugby team plays, all because of the worry of maybe upsetting one or two people. Your tunnel vision would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic. In fact, the Ireland rugby team doesn't even play under the Ireland flag any more.

You demand that the NI team in some way recognises the sensibilities of NI Nationalists, but seem reluctant to concede the equal sensibilities of NI Unionists in the Ireland rugby team?

You reject the use of the NI flag for the NI football team, then decry the non-use of the (Irish Republic) Tricolour, (at away matches only, btw) for a team which is not representing the Irish Republic?

And you accuse the likes of me of possessing tunnel vision? Perhaps you can't comprehend the absurd inconsistency of your argument; I just hope that the reasonable/reasoning majority of your fellow ROI fans can, and aren't too embarrassed...

[Blanchflower]

So you'd consider booing opponents the same as booing your own? Quite a little member of the PC brigade aren't you.
If they are beeing booed for sectarian/political reasons, yes. Do you think it is acceptable to boo players for sectarian/political reasons?


Israeli players being booed? That's what you know?And that's anti-semitism?

It depends on the motivation of those doing the booing.

[lopez]

...Similarly, for those people who suggested that the Tricolour and Soldiers Song might also be played at NI matches, to represent Nationalists in the team/crowd, would they be happy to hear GSTQ played and the NI flag flown at FAI games in Dublin? After all, should the FAI be allowed to pick players from throughout the island, including Northern Unionists as well as Northern Nationalists, it would only be fair to reciprocate. Unless, of course, they are not interested in picking Northern Unionists, in which case, which of the two Irish teams would be discriminatory on political grounds...I'd rather have both the Irish flag and NI flag flown at Irish rugby or cricket matches rather than any unofficial flag. Give me the Sash (GSTQ is the English anthem) and the Soldier's Song at rugby than the current dirge they play. And if you think it's ridiculous, how many anthems did South Africa play during the recent rugby World Cup? Three? Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika and the national anthem of the apartheid regime Die Stem in Afrikaans and English. Didn't stop them winning the competition. I'd be happy for the same arangement if there was an all-Ireland team without an all-Ireland state.

[Blanchflower]

Er . . . . we have to stand for a Phil Coulter tune when the Ireland rugby team plays, all because of the worry of maybe upsetting one or two people. Your tunnel vision would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic. In fact, the Ireland rugby team doesn't even play under the Ireland flag any more.

Can I just point out that the Ireland rugby team is just that - the Ireland rugby team, i.e. all-Ireland. It's not an ROI team.

[Drumcondra 69er]

If they are beeing booed for sectarian/political reasons, yes. Do you think it is acceptable to boo players for sectarian/political reasons?



For the example being referred to teh players were being booed by their own fans for tacking the ball off Peter Madsen who was being cheered by the Irish fans every time he got possession, it was obviously tounge in cheek.

As for the Israel game, their players were being booed for diving, feigning injury and cheating in general, I don't consider anyone waving a Palestine flag anti semetic and I didn't hear any chants that made reference to Juadism is any way. I do see a place for politics in Sport. What was your opinion on the South Africa boycott during the apartheid regime as a matter of interest?

[Cowboy]

And there's the rub. The whole point of the claim by the likes of D.Gibson is that they should be allowed to represent the ROI team because of their Nationality (i.e. country), not because of their Association. That is, one may be born with two or more Nationalities, but one cannot be born within the territory of more than one Association!



You raise an interesting point but surely if the player makes his choice before he is 21 ( it would be my view that this should be lowered) he should be entitled to choose his association if he is a citizen of that country. I think where we differ mostly is that I believe the players choice should outweigh any "dog in the manger" interpretation of the rules by the IFA

[Blanchflower]

It has been modified by way of annex to deal with players who were granted citizenship not by way of birth. FFS yourself, this has been discussed to death here, the annex does not apply

1. It has been modified by way of annex not only to deal with players granted citizenship not by way of birth, but also to deal with dual nationality.

2. I know it doesn't apply. I've said so many times.:mad:

3. I'm arguing for a new annex to deal with this situation. And have been clearly doing so for days - try reading people's posts before making irrelevant comments.:mad:

[Blanchflower]

For the example being referred to teh players were being booed by their own fans for tacking the ball off Peter Madsen who was being cheered by the Irish fans every time he got possession, it was obviously tounge in cheek.

There are numerous other examples of ROI fans booing Rangers players, e.g. Lovenkrands, etc.


As for the Israel game, their players were being booed for diving, feigning injury and cheating in general, I don't consider anyone waving a Palestine flag anti semetic and I didn't hear any chants that made reference to Juadism is any way.
The reports I read described anti-Semitic shouts and chants.


I do see a place for politics in Sport. What was your opinion on the South Africa boycott during the apartheid regime as a matter of interest?
Fully supportive. But I wouldn't have agreed with, say, racist shouts or chants against South African players.

[EalingGreen]

You raise an interesting point but surely if the player makes his choice before he is 21 ( it would be my view that this should be lowered) he should be entitled to choose his association if he is a citizen of that country. I think where we differ mostly is that I believe the players choice should outweigh any "dog in the manger" interpretation of the rules by the IFA

Can I choose one of the Scandinavian Associations, then? I don't have any connection with them and don't have (or want) Danish/Swedish/Norwegian etc Nationality, but their women are hot...

Anyhow, to be serious, when and why a player may switch between two Associations which he is eligible to represent is one thing, but my point precedes that. That is, irrespective of his eligibility via Nationality etc, at the time he was first picked for the ROI, Darron Gibson had no connection whatever with the FAI.

And since FIFA is a Member Association-based organisation, which ought to treat its Member Associations fairly and equally, I consider the IFA's case to be founded on the fact that another Association should not be allowed to select players from our Association's jurisdiction, if those players do not have any prior connection with that other Association, either by birth or residence, or by a parent or grandparent's birth. Otherwise, many smaller Associations risk being "exploited" by larger or more wealthy neighbouring Associations, whose Governments pursue a policy over Nationality/Passports which cannot be influenced by the Government of the smaller Association.

Of course, DG has Irish Nationality, but that is only because the Government of another State accords him this for political, not sporting, reasons. And for all those who contest that that makes him as "Irish" as e.g. a Dubliner, Galwegian or Corkonian, does this really stand up?

Does the Irish Government also give him a vote to their Parliament? Do they correspondingly make him liable to pay taxes? Is he eligible for Health, Social Security and Educational services on exactly the same grounds? Will he receive a State Pension the same as they do?

Curiously enough, his rights and responsibilities from the British Government are exactly the same as those of somneone from e.g. Aberdeen, Cardiff or, ahem, Finchley. So just as it was the IFA which first introduced him to orghanised football, it was a British Government who provided the hospital he was born in, educated him at school and which is now taxing him for his earnings in England. But that's if you want to play the political card, which I don't

This is because in the end, it is impossible for every Football Association to accommodate every political aspiration which the inhabitants of its jurisdiction may possess and it is impossible for FIFA to accord all such aspirations exactly equal treatment, either - if for no other reason than that there are more Football Associations/International Teams than there are Nationalities.

Instead, as I see it, there are two intyernational football teams in Ireland, one with footballing jurisdiction over one part of the island and the other with footballing jurisdiction over the other part of the island. Therefore, if you were born within the territory (jurisdiction) of one, that is who you may represent, and if born within the other, then they are who you play for.

Finally, for all those who consider that one of these two Irish teams (i.e. NI)should remove all symbols of its own identity (flag, anthem etc) and replace them with something suitably neutral, are they also going to require the same of the other Irish team (ROI)? That is, no Tricolour or Soldiers Song, since it may not "represent" all of the very many minorities which now inhabitat the 26 counties, or indeed those players they might pick from the 6, who may be Unionist in their politics?

[Cowboy]

3. I'm arguing for a new annex to deal with this situation. And have been clearly doing so for days - try reading people's posts before making irrelevant comments.:mad:

So you want a new annex that conflicts with the article its attached to? Would love to see the wording of that one, what exactly did you have in mind? Feel free to post a form of words here. I have read your posts and i'm sorry you consider my comments irrelevant but I guess your argument is so weak that you must resort to that type of comment

[Cowboy]

Can I choose one of the Scandinavian Associations, then?

No because you are not entitled to citizenship by birth of any of the Scandinavian countries

[Blanchflower]

So you want a new annex that conflicts with the article its attached to?

It wouldn't conflict with it. Just like the other annexes don't conflict with it. They provide for particular situations.


Would love to see the wording of that one, what exactly did you have in mind?

Rather obviously it would say that a player would have to have necessary connections to a country in order to play for it, i.e. citizenship in the first instance, but also birth, or parentage, or grandparentage, or residence.

[lopez]

...Do you think it is acceptable to boo players for sectarian/political reasons?Sectarianism and politics are two different things. However you've conveniently lumped them as one. Not surprising really, but there you are.

Two answers. I don't agree with booing a player because of his religion. I'd be mortified if it was one of my own. I wouldn't in any way cover this up or claim that it's X years now, that is irrelevent.

Politics is different, and it depends on the circumstances. What if you had a player who promoted openly racism, nazi ideology or homophobia? If you think that its OK to stay quiet for the sake of PC, then gfys! Equally, I'm sure you'd be telling all the WP boys if there was a Republic player promoting a more extreme version of SF politics. Yeah I can see that one alright.:rolleyes:

[Cowboy]

Rather obviously it would say that a player would have to have necessary connections to a country in order to play for it, i.e. citizenship in the first instance, but also birth, or parentage, or grandparentage, or residence.

Rather obviously you have not thought this through.

[Blanchflower]

Sectarianism and politics are two different things.
Not necessarily. Indeed, often sectarianism can be political sectarianism. Or sectarianism can have political motivations or be politically-inspired.


Two answers. I don't agree with booing a player because of his religion. I'd be mortified if it was one of my own. I wouldn't in any way cover this up or claim that it's X years now, that is irrelevent.


So do you condemn the booing of Rangers players by ROI fans, or do you play it down? If the latter, do you play down the booing of Celtic players by NI fans.

[Blanchflower]

Rather obviously you have not thought this through.

Well, the empty response by yourself would indicate quite the opposite: you have not thought it through, hence your inability to respond.

[Drumcondra 69er]

There are numerous other examples of ROI fans booing Rangers players, e.g. Lovenkrands, etc.


The reports I read described anti-Semitic shouts and chants.


Fully supportive. But I wouldn't have agreed with, say, racist shouts or chants against South African players.

True but the question was specifically about fans booing their own players. I find the booing of Rangers players pretty childish personally but there is a sense of pantomine about it, it's not particulalry agressive.

I'd suggest the reports were wrong and sensationalist.

Fair enough, what about a protest against the regime outside of the ground and the waving of the flag of the people they were opressing by fans inside the ground?

On the day itself there was silence during the Israeli anthem although a lot of people held up Palestinian falgs for teh duration but that was as far as the 'anti-semitism' went unless booing players for cheating falls into that category....

[lopez]

...Does the Irish Government also give him a vote to their Parliament? Do they correspondingly make him liable to pay taxes? Is he eligible for Health, Social Security and Educational services on exactly the same grounds? Will he receive a State Pension the same as they do?...None of these apply to people born outside the state with Irish citizenship and an ancestral connection with the 26C.

In fact none of this applies if you leave the state, despite being born there. So what is your point here?

[Cowboy]

Well, the empty response by yourself would indicate quite the opposite: you have not thought it through, hence your inability to respond.

There is little point in responding since you consider my comments irrelevant.

[Blanchflower]

True but the question was specifically about fans booing their own players. I find the booing of Rangers players pretty childish personally but there is a sense of pantomine about it, it's not particulalry agressive.

And my point was that sectarian booing is wrong against your own players and also against other players. Sectarianism is wrong.


I'd suggest the reports were wrong and sensationalist.

Fair enough - I wasn't there so I don't know what happened, and I was going by the press reports and blogs. Would you accept that reports from the "Night in November" were also wrong and sensationalist.


Fair enough, what about a protest against the regime outside of the ground and the waving of the flag of the people they were opressing by fans inside the ground?

What about them? If they were peaceful and didn't involve any anti-Semitism, then such demos are legitimate expressions of freedom of speech.


On the day itself there was silence during the Israeli anthem although a lot of people held up Palestinian falgs for teh duration but that was as far as the 'anti-semitism' went unless booing players for cheating falls into that category....
It was reported that anti-Semitic chants and shouts were made from the crowd. I accept that the reports may not be accurate. But I also accept that it is possible that people in the crowd did make such anti-Semitic chants and shouts.

[Blanchflower]

None of these apply to people born outside the state with Irish citizenship and an ancestral connection with the 26C.



You'll have no problem accepting football eligibility not applying to those born outside the state (and with parents and grandparents born outside the state) with Irish citizenship, then?:confused:

[geysir]

More accurately the letter of the rules consequential to Article 15 dealing with players of dual nationality cover Gibson. I say those rules should be changed because the South's (and any other country's) extra-territorial laws mean that one country can pick two-countries'-worth of players, which is unfair.
Dont you think FIFA have already heard this unfair bit mentioned every in every line of the IFA submission?
FIFA also measure up a players rights. The proposal is their answer.
Their response so far since the issue came to light would not fill me with any hope that they would go any furthur. Ie if I was a person who had a hope that they would go any furthur.

[Blanchflower]

There is little point in responding since you consider my comments irrelevant.

Your comments were based on an assumption that I thought that the statutes made NI players ineligible for the ROI. That assumption was wrong and hence those comments were irrelevant.

It does not follow that because a person makes an irrelevant comment that all his comments must be irrelevant.

I note your ongoing inability to engage in discussion and your childish attempts to disengage from discussion. Such attempts merely serve to suggest that it is you who doesn't understand the arguments, rather than those with whom you are unable to argue.

[Blanchflower]

Dont you think FIFA have already heard this unfair bit mentioned every in every line of the IFA submission?
No. Because all the media reports say that the IFA was arguing that the statutes as currently drafted made Gibson ineligible. I have said all along that they do not, and that the IFA should have been arguing for a new annex to deal with this unfair situation.


FIFA also measure up a players rights. The proposal is their answer.
It's not. It is merely a suggestion they have asked both FAs to comment upon. Presumably the IFA will reject it.


Their response so far since the issue came to light would not fill me with any hope that they would go any furthur. Ie if I was a person who had a hope that they would go any furthur.
Nor me. But that does not alter the fact that the current situation is unfair and the rules should be modified to remove the unfairness.

[lopez]

Not necessarily. Indeed, often sectarianism can be political sectarianism. Or sectarianism can have political motivations or be politically-inspired.
Well spotted! I'd agree to that in NI, particularly on the nationalist side. However, as oppostion to Israel - either as a state or its treatment of Palestinians - has substantial support amongst Jews, and this is what we are discussing, most of what happened in June 2005, was political, not sectarian (i.e. anti-Semitic).

So do you condemn the booing of Rangers players by ROI fans, or do you play it down? If the latter, do you play down the booing of Celtic players by NI fans.Have you seen me post anything 'playing this down' or claiming this is not sectarianism? What about you: Do you or have you ever supported Glasgow Rangers?

You'll have no problem accepting football eligibility not applying to those born outside the state (and with parents and grandparents born outside the state) with Irish citizenship, then? Sorry, I don't understand your point here. Could you elaborate it please?

[Blanchflower]

Well spotted! I'd agree to that in NI, particularly on the nationalist side. However, as oppostion to Israel - either as a state or its treatment of Palestinians - has substantial support amongst Jews, and this is what we are discussing, most of what happened in June 2005, was political, not sectarian (i.e. anti-Semitic).
I am sure that most of it was. That, however, does not mean that all of it was.


Have you seen me post anything 'playing this down' or claiming this is not sectarianism?
I'm afraid I've lost track of how this argument arose and don't really have the patience to read back. All I know for sure is that some on these boards have attempted to play down sectarian booing by ROI fans on grounds of "it wasn't against our own players".


What about you: Do you or have you ever supported Glasgow Rangers?
No, on both counts. Why do you ask?


Sorry, I don't understand your point here. Could you elaborate it please?
I should have thought it was plain.

If you accept that citizenship alone doesn't entitle you to many of the "rights" and privileges of citizenship (e.g. voting, receiving public services, paying taxes, etc.), and many of these require birth and/or residence, then surely you could accept a situation whereby citizenship alone doesn't entitle you to play for the football team.

[Cowboy]

I note your ongoing inability to engage in discussion and your childish attempts to disengage from discussion. Such attempts merely serve to suggest that it is you who doesn't understand the arguments, rather than those with whom you are unable to argue.

There are none so blind as those who will not see

[EalingGreen]

I'd rather have both the Irish flag and NI flag flown at Irish rugby or cricket matches rather than any unofficial flag. Give me the Sash (GSTQ is the English anthem) and the Soldier's Song at rugby than the current dirge they play. And if you think it's ridiculous, how many anthems did South Africa play during the recent rugby World Cup? Three? Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika and the national anthem of the apartheid regime Die Stem in Afrikaans and English. Didn't stop them winning the competition. I'd be happy for the same arangement if there was an all-Ireland team without an all-Ireland state.

I suppose that has a certain consistency, except that your actual choice of songs is flawed. If the SS is going to represent the Irish Republic, then its NI equivalent must be GSTQ. Personally, I think it inappropriate to have either song played, since these unnecessarily introduce a politically Nationalistic element which is neither helpful nor welcome.

As for your suggestion of the Sash, presumably in order to "represent" NI, I find it frankly offensive that I should be represented by an Orange Song. I am not an Orangemen, never have been or never will be, in keeping with the vast majority of my fellow countrymen.

As for your S.African analogy, afaik, they only play one anthem, the country's official anthem. (Albeit that that anthem incorporates Die Stem as a part of it).

And for the Ireland team, there's far too much fecking about with anthems, imo. They should just play the one anthem (Irelands Call), at full speed, so as we can get it and the 80 minutes blundering out of the way as quickly as possible, before repairing to the pub for the serious business of the day.

[Blanchflower]

There are none so blind as those who will not see

If you can't/won't engage in discussion, that's fair enough, but the empty responses won't disguise the fact.

Should you choose to respond substantially to any points I have made, I will reciprocate. Otherwise, it would be better if you just stayed out of the discussion and let those who wish to continue to do so.

[EalingGreen]

Originally Posted by EalingGreen
"Can I choose one of the Scandinavian Associations, then?"


No because you are not entitled to citizenship by birth of any of the Scandinavian countries

It should have been patently obvious that that was never a serious suggestion.

Do you care to respond to the rest of my post, which was entirely serious?

[Cowboy]

As for your suggestion of the Sash, presumably in order to "represent" NI, I find it frankly offensive that I should be represented by an Orange Song. I am not an Orangemen, never have been or never will be, in keeping with the vast majority of my fellow countrymen.



I find Ireland's call to be offensive in so far as its absolute rubbish. I'm with Lopez in so far as two anthems should be played. Tell me are there any songs/anthems that you would consider representative of NI? OT I know but I'm curious nonetheless

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by EalingGreen
"Can I choose one of the Scandinavian Associations, then?"
It should have been patently obvious that that was never a serious suggestion.

Do you care to respond to the rest of my post, which was entirely serious?

I'm afraid it was not obvious to me. I can only respond by saying that as an Irish citizen I believe he is eligible for selection and therefore does have a connection with the FAI, I'm re stating my position so forgive me for not responding directly to the rest of your post.

[EalingGreen]

None of these apply to people born outside the state with Irish citizenship and an ancestral connection with the 26C.

In fact none of this applies if you leave the state, despite being born there. So what is your point here?

My point is that supporters of DG's right to represent the FAI team primarily do so because of his Nationality, it being the same Nationality as that of any other Irish person from e.g. Cork or Galway. Yet that Nationality is granted by a Government which does not also grant him the same rights (e.g vote), or demand the same responsibilities (e.g. tax) as someone from Cork or Galway. Therefore, in political/constitutional terms, his "Irishness" is NOT the same as theirs.

Which is another reason why I consider that eligibility for international football should rest primarily on footballing jurisdiction. That is, you should represent the Association in whose territory you were born, unless you have additional eligibility for another Association by virtue of residency or a parent/grandparent who was born within that other jurisdiction.

That way, you also resolve equitably the situation of "people born outside the state with Irish citizenship and an ancestral connection with the 26C", plus those who "leave the state".

As I've consistently posted, this should be about football, not politics.

And I'm the one who gets accused of political bigotry and all sorts...:rolleyes:

[EalingGreen]

I find Ireland's call to be offensive in so far as its absolute rubbish. I'm with Lopez in so far as two anthems should be played. Tell me are there any songs/anthems that you would consider representative of NI? OT I know but I'm curious nonetheless

For the Ireland rugby team, the principle should be "One Island, One Team, One Anthem". Otherwise, to have more than one anthem would only emphasise differences, which does nothing for team spirit and unity (as well as needlessly taking up time)

The only possible exception which I might make to this would be a system whereby when Ireland are playing games at home (i.e. on the island), they might play a tune to represent the home Province. I have no idea what Leinster, Munster and Connaught would choose, but anything would be acceptable to me so long as it were non-political. For Ulster, I'd be happy with Danny Boy (but I'm not especially fussed). This would also solve the Ulster/NI problem we saw recently at Ravenhill, where the IRFU behaved disgracefully and offensively in its efforts to affording NI the coutesy of its own anthem (GSTQ) in exactly the same way as they demand when playing home games in the Irish Republic with the Soldiers Song.

And for away games, whilst I have no great fondness for "Ireland's Call", if I can tolerate GSTQ at NI football matches and the SS at Ireland rugby matches in Lansdowne, then IC is hardly too much of a problem for anyone - just speed the feckin thing up, I say!

[EalingGreen]

I'm afraid it was not obvious to me. I can only respond by saying that as an Irish citizen I believe he is eligible for selection and therefore does have a connection with the FAI, I'm re stating my position so forgive me for not responding directly to the rest of your post.

So just what was his connection with the FAI at the point they first selected him? I can see his connection (politically speaking, that is) with the Irish Republic, but had he ever been coached by an FAI team before his debut? Had he ever played for an FAI team, or paid a membership or subscription to them? Had he ever had any chance to vote or influence the FAI's policies? Had he ever lived within the territorial jurisdiction of the FAI? Or had a parent or grandparent who had been born within the FAI's jurisdiction?

You cannot conflate a political concept (Citizenship) with a footballing concept (eligibility), even if there is a close overlap, just because it happens to suit. Otherwise, FIFA would never have more Members than the United Nations.

Which is why I keep coming back to my original point: Playing for, or supporting, the NI football team does not make anyone any "more British" or "less Irish", it merely denotes that the person is Northern Irish. Otherwise, if this is not the case, does anyone want to tell e.g. Gerry Taggart that he's not really Irish, or (I dunno), Alan McDonald that he's not really British?

[janeymac]

My point is that supporters of DG's right to represent the FAI team primarily do so because of his Nationality, it being the same Nationality as that of any other Irish person from e.g. Cork or Galway. Yet that Nationality is granted by a Government which does not also grant him the same rights (e.g vote), or demand the same responsibilities (e.g. tax) as someone from Cork or Galway. Therefore, in political/constitutional terms, his "Irishness" is NOT the same as theirs.


Does David Healy (or non-residents) vote in Northern Ireland elections or pay tax in NI?

If Darren Gibson was resident (and registered himself) in a ROI electoral constituency for a General Election he would be able to vote because he has full Irish citizenship. People resident in Ireland without citizenship cannot vote in a General Election, they can however vote (if registered) in local elections, Euro elections. I think there are moves afoot for postal votes for non-resident Irish passport holders in the Presidential election (workable as you don't vote for candidates in a particular electoral constitutency).

We'd tax anyone resident here in the Republic and probably be all for taxing UK residents as well!