Eligibility proposal

[Dodge]

Its hard to understand you being 100% of two nationalities.
Maybe this doesn't apply in this case but the basis for believing he is british and Irish maybe down to his belief in the regional aspect of Britain. He doesn't have to be an Irish nationalist to be Irish

To put it another way it would be a man from Cork being a Munsterman and an Irishman. To many ulstermen its the same thing.

others of course get two passports as it suits them ;)

[Blanchflower]

Its hard to understand you being 100% of two nationalities.
It's only hard if you think they are mutually exclusive. Is a Scotsman less than 100% Scottish because he is also British? Is a Fleming less than 100% Flemish because he is also Dutch?


Here is a question that might help to figure out how 'Irish' you are? Would you consider that the Irish language is an important part of an Irish person's cultural heritage and should be on an equal footing with the English language by anyone who claims to be 100% Irish? Note: I don't mean that you need to be able to speak Irish to be 100% Irish - just respect those Irish people who feel it is important to Irish culture and not object to signposts in both languages etc. that type of thing.
Now you're also at this chauvinistic and nasty game of trying to place people on a scale of Irishness dependent on their political views. Frankly, that is quite a repugnant game.

[janeymac]

Maybe this doesn't apply in this case but the basis for believing he is british and Irish maybe down to his belief in the regional aspect of Britain. He doesn't have to be an Irish nationalist to be Irish.

To put it another way it would be a man from Cork being a Munsterman and an Irishman. To many ulstermen its the same thing.

others of course get two passports as it suits them ;)

I agree with you there and I have no problem understanding that.

The Munsterman identity down here only applies when following the Munster Rugby team. I've never heard of Roy Keane being referred to as a Munsterman!

[Gather round]

Its Here is a question that might help to figure out how 'Irish' you are?

Thanks Janey. But I already know how Irish I am, ie 100% as I said.


Would you consider that the Irish language is an important part of an Irish person's cultural heritage

No, not necessarily. I didn't learn or speak any Irish until I left school and lived in Dublin as a student. I picked up some, although none of my friends then spoke much more, bar one guy from the Donegal Gaeltacht and a couple of traineee primary teachers. That lessened the interest in me learning much more.

That said, I fully support the teaching and use of the Irish language and am pleased that it has consolidated north, south and beyond Ireland. On a slight tangent, while in Caerdydd the other day I was equally pleased to hear locals of all ages speaking in Welsh. And I even had time for some inane pidgin-Spanish banter with Lopez ;)


What do you think the reaction at Windsor if a verse of GSTQ was sung in Irish? (only a verse and could be put up phenetically on a screen - it has been done elsewhere!)

Bemusement. Unless we were playing Liechtenstein, obviously. Most would assume it was German.

[Drumcondra 69er]

It's only hard if you think they are mutually exclusive. Is a Scotsman less than 100% Scottish because he is also British? Is a Fleming less than 100% Flemish because he is also Dutch?


Now you're also at this chauvinistic and nasty game of trying to place people on a scale of Irishness dependent on their political views. Frankly, that is quite a repugnant game.

Scotland is in Britain. Northern Ireland is not as you've already agreed.

And frankly his comment about the Irish language was purely cultural and not in the least political, it's your response that's repugnant and quite surprising to me to be honest.

[janeymac]

Now you're also at this chauvinistic and nasty game of trying to place people on a scale of Irishness dependent on their political views. Frankly, that is quite a repugnant game.

Only chauvinistic and nasty if you can't answer the question. Personally, I'm no Irish language fanatic and barely speak it, but I do respect the fact that it is an important aspect of Irish cultural heritage.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Bemusement. Unless we were playing Liechtenstein, obviously. Most would assume it was German.


Which may be more apt given the Queen's bloodline! :D

Your comments around the language are much appreciated and put Blanchflower to shame.

[geysir]

Yes merely asking a question about attitudes Irish culture and Irish language is chauvinistic, political and a repugnant game. :D

Blanchflower you were just dying with an intolerable itch to get all this stuff out of your system, given no provocation you go and create offence and invent slurs.
Your posts are cheap and nasty.

[EalingGreen]

Originally Posted by lopez
"It is pretty pathetic from someone who claims to be Northern Irish, Irish and British all in one, and no doubt like all Ulster Unionists, wheels whatever one out at their convenience (today it's Irish just to win an argument on an internet forum), to criticise others"


You win, Lopez. You've dragged me far beyond rational debate, past irrational debate, even past anger, frustration and indeed outrage*.

Yep, whilst I greatly admire Blanchflower's stamina in keeping going, I've actually reached the stage where I'm bored by all this - something I never thought I'd hear myself say.

So I shall ignore entirely this endless bloody debate about Nationality, Identity, Citizenship etc and merely restate what I've come to believe as regards the footballing situation.

Namely, there are two Football Associations, and therefore two international football teams, in Ireland. Each is/should be equally valid and each should respect the other.

Consequently, playing for NI does not make someone either "more British" or "less Irish", it merely means that when someone pulls on the Emerald Green Shirt with the Celtic Cross Badge, he's a Northern Irish footballer - no more, no less. What he does away from the game is no business or interest of mine.

Therefore, I believe if you are born within one part of the island (NI), you should represent the IFA team and if you are born in the other part (Irish Republic), you should represent the other Association team, FAI/ROI (unless you have a suitable connection - parent/grandparent/residence - with another Association, when you may choose).

This is basically how it works for everyone of the other 208 Associations and minor, non-footballing quibbles over anthems, flags etc notwithstanding, I see no valid reason why it should not apply to the two Irish teams.

As for this interminable debate over nomenclature, in purely footballing terms, FIFA has determined that the FAI team must be called "Republic of Ireland" and the IFA team "Northern Ireland". And with this being a football website, it is both accurate and courteous to use those two terms - especially since the abbreviations "ROI" and "NI" are also by far the most convenient to type.

Of course, some will insist on typing "Ireland" when they mean "ROI", which is their prerogative, I suppose, but by the same token it is my prerogative to point out that when some of them also take exception to being called "ROI" at the same time as insisting on typing "the North" (or something longer or more provocative), then they are being hypocritical as well as petty (imo).

As for the name of the Nation/State/Country in which the FAI is located, people may call it just whatever the Hell they like - it won't make any difference to me.


* - By his contention that someone is more "truly" Irish for possessing Nationalist views than someone with, say, Unionist views, or by denying people the right to be both Irish and British, or by gratuitously ascribing an "identity crisis" to such people, I can only conclude that Lopez is desperate to compensate for the nagging fear that his having been born and brought up amongst all these Cockernees means that he is in reality somewhat less of an Irishman than those of us privileged and lucky enough to have been born and brought up in Ireland itself, in circumstances where we were free to choose our own identity, Nationality and politics, entirely as it suited us. Sad.

[antrimgreen]

Tell you this for nothing the Scottish may say they are 100% scottish and some would say they are British also, but one thing is for sure they have their own national anthem unlike the the Winsdor faithful who have an anthem which is the same as England. What right thinking country has the same national athem as another country, IMO that is bloody stupid.

On the irish language chat, we should promote where possible the use of the language as it was restricted from this country by force many many moon's ago.

[Gather round]

Is a Fleming less than 100% Flemish because he is also Dutch?

Blanche, I assume you meant Belgian rather than Dutch?

Talking of which, the GAWA have a mini-trip over there before Xmas. U-23/ Irish League selection, in Tournai on Tuesday 11 December. Our hosts here set the early pace with a win over Slovakia earlier this month.

the Winsdor faithful who have an anthem which is the same as England

Er, no. It's the same as Britain. OK, so England (sometimes) share it. I'm no fan of it, but you're wrong to suggest anthems aren't shared (see Liechtenstein referred above). Deutschland uber alles is a Croat folk song and all.

we should promote where possible the use of the language

Agreed. We do, actually.

it was restricted from this country by force many many moon's ago

Aye, centuries ago. We've moved on since (a lot in the last generation, Irish educationalists and government arguably didn't do a great job boosting the language before that). Not a party political point- they all meant well, but most 17-18 years I met at Uni in Dublin could barely speak a sentence.

[antrimgreen]

Personally and its only IMO, i would hate to have the same national anthem as another country, but anyway each to their own. If it is for Britian then why do the Scots and Welsh not sing it?

[Blanchflower]

Scotland is in Britain. Northern Ireland is not as you've already agreed.

Not all of it is. The Shetland Islands aren't, for example.


And frankly his comment about the Irish language was purely cultural and not in the least political, it's your response that's repugnant and quite surprising to me to be honest.
It is unacceptable to place people on a scale of Irishness because of their "cultural" views just as it is because of their "political" views.

I find it bizarre that you think it repugnant for someone to object to being placed on such a scale for his political/cultural views!

[janeymac]

Which may be more apt given the Queen's bloodline! :D

Your comments around the language are much appreciated and put Blanchflower to shame.

Gather around

Ditto what Drumcondra 69er says.

Best explanation I've heard about this whole identity thing was from Trevor Ringland when asked about how he reconciled being British and playing for an 'Ireland' team.

He said something to the effect that when in Dublin with the Irish team he felt part of the Irish nation and when in Belfast going about his everyday life he felt part of the British nation. Simple!

Gibson probably just does not feel part of the British nation when in Belfast and that should be respected.

[Blanchflower]

Only chauvinistic and nasty if you can't answer the question.
No - the question itself is chauvinistic and nasty if it is to be used to place someone on a scale of Irishness: "he's more Irish than she is because of his views about the Irish language; he's not Irish at all because of his views on the Irish language".


Personally, I'm no Irish language fanatic and barely speak it, but I do respect the fact that it is an important aspect of Irish cultural heritage.

So do I, but that does not make me any more Irish than someone who disagrees.

[Blanchflower]

Your comments around the language are much appreciated and put Blanchflower to shame.
And why do gather round's comments on the Irish language put me to shame?

Because of your prejudiced assumptions as to my own views about the Irish language?

[Blanchflower]

Blanche, I assume you meant Belgian rather than Dutch?

Indeed I did!:o

[Gather round]

If it is for Britian then why do the Scots and Welsh not sing it?

They don't like it?

I mean, I think it's on the way out. Many in England don't like it either.

Your comments around the language are much appreciated and put Blanchflower to shame

Thanks- I don't see how Blanche is shamed, though no doubt he'll answer for himself ;)

Best explanation I've heard about this whole identity thing was from Trevor Ringland when asked about how he reconciled being British and playing for an 'Ireland' team. He said something to the effect that when in Dublin with the Irish team he felt part of the Irish nation and when in Belfast going about his everyday life he felt part of the British nation. Simple!

Simple (because he agrees with you), but not exclusive. When I lived in Dublin I didn't feel any less part of the British nation or more Irish. I have always been 100% Irish, as I said.

Gibson probably just does not feel part of the British nation when in Belfast and that should be respected

Who?

Sure, unlike some of the NI fans above I agree, let him go.

[Blanchflower]

Blanchflower you were just dying with an intolerable itch to get all this stuff out of your system, given no provocation you go and create offence and invent slurs.
Your posts are cheap and nasty.

I am not suggesting that someones's Irishness is determined by his or her political views. That is what you have done, and that is what janeymac was alluding to, and that is what any reasonable person should object to. The dangers of such attitudes should be apparent.

It is not "cheap and nasty" to object to that - it is the attitude behind the suggestions being objected to which are "cheap and nasty". You are attempting to divert attention away from the exposure of this attitude.

[antrimgreen]

Gather around

Ditto what Drumcondra 69er says.

Best explanation I've heard about this whole identity thing was from Trevor Ringland when asked about how he reconciled being British and playing for an 'Ireland' team.

He said something to the effect that when in Dublin with the Irish team he felt part of the Irish nation and when in Belfast going about his everyday life he felt part of the British nation. Simple!

Gibson probably just does not feel part of the British nation when in Belfast and that should be respected.


That's a weirdo ffs, in Dublin he feels Irish then after a drive up the road 100miles he then feels British, you me and Irene ffs.

[janeymac]

..... I can only conclude that Lopez is desperate to compensate for the nagging fear that his having been born and brought up amongst all these Cockernees means that he is in reality somewhat less of an Irishman than those of us privileged and lucky enough to have been born and brought up in Ireland itself, in circumstances where we were free to choose our own identity, Nationality and politics, entirely as it suited us. Sad.

Well Lopez has seems to have inherited one very strong Irish (nationalist) characteristic - and that is the patience to wear people down.:rolleyes:

[EalingGreen]

What right thinking country has the same national athem as another country, IMO that is bloody stupid.

On the irish language chat, we should promote where possible the use of the language as it was restricted from this country by force many many moon's ago.

Do you really believe that England is not a "right thinking country", or "bloody stupid" because they have the same National Anthem as another country? And if so, which "other country" do you mean? Northern Ireland? Liechtenstein?

Personally, I would like to see GSTQ replaced by someting peculiarly "Norn Iron", but when I was on the Kop on Saturday evening, the time it took to pipe GSTQ over the tannoy was unquestionably the only boring 90 seconds during what was otherwise the most enjoyable and exciting two hours I can remember for ages.

It didn't put me off; more to the point, it didn't put off any of the players, most notably Super Sammy Clingan - everyones Man of The Match, for his 100% effort and commitment.

As for your Irish language query, whilst interesting in its own right, I fail entirely to see what it has to do with Eligibility to represent either Irish Association (or football in general, for that matter) :confused:

[Drumcondra 69er]

And why to gather round's comments on the Irish language put me to shame?

Because of your prejudiced assumptions as to my own views about the Irish language?

Because you called a legitimite comment about the cultural relevance of the Irish language 'cheap and nasty' and part of a 'repugnant game' when it clearly wasn't.

Gather Round clearly saw the comment for what it was and responded accordingly.

I make no assumptions, prejiduced or otherwise, to your views in the real world on the Irish language and am simply responding to what you said on an internet message board.

[antrimgreen]

Do you really believe that England is not a "right thinking country", or "bloody stupid" because they have the same National Anthem as another country? And if so, which "other country" do you mean? Northern Ireland? Liechtenstein?

Personally, I would like to see GSTQ replaced by someting peculiarly "Norn Iron", but when I was on the Kop on Saturday evening, the time it took to pipe GSTQ over the tannoy was unquestionably the only boring 90 seconds during what was otherwise the most enjoyable and exciting two hours I can remember for ages.

It didn't put me off; more to the point, it didn't put off any of the players, most notably Super Sammy Clingan - everyones Man of The Match, for his 100% effort and commitment.

As for your Irish language query, whilst interesting in its own right, I fail entirely to see what it has to do with Eligibility to represent either Irish Association (or football in general, for that matter) :confused:

The daily mirror gave man of the match to Healy, Clingan was definitely man of the match especially after that wonder save in the dying minutes

[janeymac]

That's a weirdo ffs, in Dublin he feels Irish then after a drive up the road 100miles he then feels British, you me and Irene ffs.

Don't take it too literal. He was actually playing rugby for a team called Ireland, surrounded by a load of nationalists with AnaB, tricolour etc., all over the place. Politically he is a member of the UUP.

[Blanchflower]

Because you called a legitimite comment about the cultural relevance of the Irish language 'cheap and nasty' and part of a 'repugnant game' when it clearly wasn't.




Janeymac suggested that a question about someone's political views (i.e. views on the Irish language) might help figure out how "Irish" they are. The implications were clear - holding certain views on the language will mean that you are "more" or "less" Irish than someone with different views. Just as lopez has claimed that someone who is an Irish nationalist is "more" Irish than someone who is not. I make no apology for objecting to the subtext of that question which is, indeed, far from being "legitimate", chauvinistic and nasty.

I did not answer the question because I objected to its premise.

[Gather round]

Gather Round clearly saw the comment for what it was and responded accordingly

I saw it as a loaded question actually. Same as Blanche.

[Blanchflower]

Going to Spain, Gather round?

[EalingGreen]

The daily mirror gave man of the match to Healy, Clingan was definitely man of the match especially after that wonder save in the dying minutes

The Daily Mirror is just a populist rag. Most I spoke to agree Sammy was MOTM, as was backed up by the Poll on OWC.

As it happens, Craigan or Feeney were most peoples alternative choice.

As for Healy, whilst he tried as hard as ever, he wasn't getting too much change from the big Danish defenders, who were very physical, and certainly wasn't helped by the atrocious conditions, until he produced a typical piece of magic that was quite simply unstoppable.

[Gather round]

Going to Spain, Gather round?

Alas not. But while my effective semi-retirement from watching us coincides with excellent results, I ain't complaining ;)

My representative, Ulster Seamus reports an excellent turnout in Las Palmas where he is currently working on a suntan. The bsatard.

[janeymac]

Gather Round clearly saw the comment for what it was and responded accordingly

I saw it as a loaded question actually. Same as Blanche.

Well, your response was much appreciated Gather Round.

It was a loaded question to the extent that if someone does not respect a key definer of the Irish nation, ie., its language (above politics imho) I would wonder as to how they could consider themselves to be Irish.

[antrimgreen]

The Daily Mirror is just a populist rag. Most I spoke to agree Sammy was MOTM, as was backed up by the Poll on OWC.

As it happens, Craigan or Feeney were most peoples alternative choice.

As for Healy, whilst he tried as hard as ever, he wasn't getting too much change from the big Danish defenders, who were very physical, and certainly wasn't helped by the atrocious conditions, until he produced a typical piece of magic that was quite simply unstoppable.

Ealing calm down i do agree that Sammy was your best player against Denmark, i was just saying not everyone agreed i.e that rag you mentioned. But you have to agree he should have walked and a penalty given, if the shoe was on the other foot you would be calling for FIFA to change the result.;)

[micls]

Its hard to understand you being 100% of two nationalities. Here is a question that might help to figure out how 'Irish' you are? Would you consider that the Irish language is an important part of an Irish person's cultural heritage and should be on an equal footing with the English language by anyone who claims to be 100% Irish? Note: I don't mean that you need to be able to speak Irish to be 100% Irish - just respect those Irish people who feel it is important to Irish culture and not object to signposts in both languages etc. that type of thing.


What do you think the reaction at Windsor if a verse of GSTQ was sung in Irish? (only a verse and could be put up phenetically on a screen - it has been done elsewhere!)


Well, your response was much appreciated Gather Round.

It was a loaded question to the extent that if someone does not respect a key definer of the Irish nation, ie., its language (above politics imho) I would wonder as to how they could consider themselves to be Irish.

Havnt gotten involved in this til now but I dont see how your views on the Irish language affect your Irishness in any way.

I know plenty of people, one who posts on here, with no interest(in fact a strong dislike) for he irish language, does not see the point of it being taught etc. He's from Cork, does that mean he's not Irish?

It is your opinion that the language is a key definer of the Irish nation, that doesn't make it a fact.

Personally I went through Gaelscoils, and now teach in one and am fluent. Yet I dont see how your position on the Irish language has any influence whatsoever on your irishness.

I am Irish because I was born on the island of Irish, just as blanchflower and co were. There is no 'cultural test' to define how Irish you are. You simply are.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Gather Round clearly saw the comment for what it was and responded accordingly

I saw it as a loaded question actually. Same as Blanche.

LOL!

Well that wasn't reflected in your answer which was an utterly different tone to Blaches.

I think you're both being a touch paranoid tbh, I think it's a legitimate question and not political at all. Why do you consider it loaded? The Irish language is undoubtedly part of what defines Irish culture despite the sparseness of it's use as a first language. Those of the unionist persuasion who would have had difficulties with the language in the past always seemed to me to be more of the 'being born in a stable doesn't make one a horse' persuasion and to also have difficulties around accepting their 'Irishness' which the pair of you don't seem to.

[Gather round]

LOL!
Why do you consider it loaded? The Irish language is undoubtedly part of what defines Irish culture...[past] difficulties around accepting their 'Irishness' which the pair of you don't seem to [share]

Loaded for the reason Blanche suggested. I'm not at all paranoid about that specifically or the subject on this thread generally, ie some NI players going to play for you. It's a hit, but we'll get over it, and good luck to them.

It's part of Irishness, but not an essential part the absence of which excludes anyone.

Aye, I've no problem being Irish. I quite like it.

[Blanchflower]

Going to Spain, Gather round?

Alas not. But while my effective semi-retirement from watching us coincides with excellent results, I ain't complaining ;)

My representative, Ulster Seamus reports an excellent turnout in Las Palmas where he is currently working on a suntan. The bsatard.
I'll doubtless bump into him when I arrive tomorrow.:)

[janeymac]

Havnt gotten involved in this til now but I dont see how your views on the Irish language affect your Irishness in any way.

I know plenty of people, one who posts on here, with no interest(in fact a strong dislike) for he irish language, does not see the point of it being taught etc. He's from Cork, does that mean he's not Irish?

It is your opinion that the language is a key definer of the Irish nation, that doesn't make it a fact.

Personally I went through Gaelscoils, and now teach in one and am fluent. Yet I dont see how your position on the Irish language has any influence whatsoever on your irishness.

I am Irish because I was born on the island of Irish, just as blanchflower and co were. There is no 'cultural test' to define how Irish you are. You simply are.

Well the Irish State seem to think the Irish language is important - hence it is now recognised as our first language in the EU. In my school years, Irish was never my best subject, but it has been useful in definining my nationality when travelling (really trying to explain that although I spoke English, I'm not English) by stating that Irish people have their own language and saying a few words that no one understood (nearly everyone has a few words of English)!

I know lots of Irish people who say they hate the Irish language (mostly because of poor teaching imo). None of them object to signposts with place names in both Irish and English in Ireland. Now, in NI you will find some unionists actively objecting to dual signage and that to me is rejecting their 'Irish' cultural heritage, most likely to feel more 'British'. You don't have two 'competing' national identities in Cork.

I consider all people born on the Island of Ireland to be Irish and its good to see that Blanch & Gather Round have no problems with accepting their Irish cultural heritage.

[Blanchflower]

Well the Irish State seem to think the Irish language is important - hence it is now recognised as our first language in the EU. In my school years, Irish was never my best subject, but it has been useful in definining my nationality when travelling (really trying to explain that although I spoke English, I'm not English) by stating that Irish people have their own language and saying a few words that no one understood (nearly everyone has a few words of English)!


Do you think Australians or Americans have difficulty in "defining their nationality" because they speak English. Would it be useful for them to be able to speak Aboriginal or Native American languages?

[Drumcondra 69er]

Do you think Australians or Americans have difficulty in "defining their nationality" because they speak English. Would it be useful for them to be able to speak Aboriginal or Native American languages?

That's an unbelievable statement and a new low. Where did anyone mention anything about you being able to speak Irish? The point was about a recognition of the language not fluency. I assume you're acting the WUM or at least being very facetious.

To turn that around (which I wasn't going to do) do you think that if a family move to England from Pakistan say and after 3 generations still only spoke Urdu and didn't speak English at all that they'd have difficulty being accepted as 'English' by everyone else?

[EalingGreen]

It was a loaded question to the extent that if someone does not respect a key definer of the Irish nation, ie., its language (above politics imho) I would wonder as to how they could consider themselves to be Irish.

Unless a proficiency in Irish is some sort of pre-requisite, as with the Civil Service or Teaching etc, I fail to see what it has to do with Eligibility (or otherwise) for either Irish football team.

Separate thread?

[lopez]

Nonsense. A Scot is no less a Scot because Scotland is in the UK. An Englishman no less an Englishman, etc.
And a Yorkshireman is no less British aswell.

I believe we were talking about identity before that. I only referred to 'identity crisis' because you - or someone else - had unfairly introduced the idea.
I think the general argument before you popped in was citizenship as a criteria for playing for Ireland. You brought up the identity crisis to rubbish someone's identity. Yet you want the same respect for an equally mixed bag.

Your comments indicate that you have a problem with anyone who doesn't conform to your simplistic and binary understanding of identity. I think it would be more reasonable to conclude that your limited understanding, and not my identity, is "pathetic".
As I keep reiterating, and will continue, being Irish while being an exclusive British citizen relegates one's Irishness to a regionality. Like being Yorkshireman and British. One's a nationality, the other just the gaff I'm from.

And? In none of those quotes did I tell anyone who has a passport of a country that he is not a citizen of that country! Please stop making things up.You didn't need to.

Strange question. The British population is the British population - made up of all who live there.
Sorry, I meant English (although all four 'countries' have had a dig over the 'grannys' at some time - my favourite being one welsh manager - Mike England? - when his team had about three players with no Welsh connections).

I don't think NI should pick players with no connection to NI. And, if you accept that you can't have it both ways, then you can't claim a figure of 1/19th of the population.
I couldn't care less who you choose. Go trawl Bongo Bongo Land for all I care. You might find someone with more Irish connections than some of the players you currently have.

Why are you deliberately misrepresenting what I say? Your behaviour indicates that you are struggling to engage in a rational discussion. I said the NI eligibility was stricter than the Republic's. That is a fact.
And once you accepted the grannies the Republic's became stricter than yours.


I have never said that we are on the moral high ground.
Again you don't need to, when you say along the lines of 'we didn't have as many grannies as you'.


No. When I refer to ROI I only refer to the 26 counties. When I say Ireland, I mean ... well, Ireland (all 32 counties).You can call it the 26C. The name of the place is Ireland.

You deny that Great Britain, Ireland and neighbouring isles were known as the British Isles? You deny that Great Britain and Ireland were once part of a "greater entity" (i.e. the UK of GB & Ireland)?Typical British. Claim something that isn't yours as your own. Like the English channel, and Mount Everest. As for that 'greater entity', you mean that 120 year disaster that came about when a sectarian parliament representing maybe 10 -15% of the population still needed to be bribed to join it. You make it sound like it was a partnership. LOL :D


You win, Lopez. You've dragged me far beyond rational debate, past irrational debate, even past anger, frustration and indeed outrage*.

*By his contention that someone is more "truly" Irish for possessing Nationalist views than someone with, say, Unionist views, or by denying people the right to be both Irish and British, or by gratuitously ascribing an "identity crisis" to such people, I can only conclude that Lopez is desperate to compensate for the nagging fear that his having been born and brought up amongst all these Cockernees means that he is in reality somewhat less of an Irishman than those of us privileged and lucky enough to have been born and brought up in Ireland itself, in circumstances where we were free to choose our own identity, Nationality and politics, entirely as it suited us. Sad.I've been missing your horsesh*te. Good that you can spare a piece of your mind as I know there isn't much to it. Tell you what Ealing, remember when you pull out your passport at Las Palmas airport take a good long look at it. The country on it tells me everything I need to know about how 'Irish' you are. ;)

[EalingGreen]

But you have to agree he should have walked and a penalty given, if the shoe was on the other foot you would be calling for FIFA to change the result.;)

No, I don't agree Sammy should have walked and a penalty given. But I do agree that had it been a Danish player, of course it should have been a Peno and a Red Card.

I'm a football fan, after all...;)

[lopez]

It's not political views that makes them less Irish. It's relegating Ireland to a region of another country, and opting for citizenship of another country that does

Only part of Ireland is 'relegated' within another country with separate nationality. In no reasonable way does this make us less Irish. I don't really see where you can go with this one, Lopez?
I'm going along a purely nationality road. No hidden questions about party politics, language, musical tastes etc.

[you are 100% Irish but consider yourself British

I consider myself 100% both. What's da problem? It's entirely reasonable and logical.
I thought you considered yourself 100% Northern Irish.

[People didn't take 'the Charlton team' seriously due to ignorance and jealousy

Broadly agreed, although don't assume all the jealous were ignorant. They played to their strengths, sometimes it wasn't pretty (not entirely different to the current NI team ;) )
We played the best team available.

...I even had time for some inane pidgin-Spanish banter with Lopez ;).It was basically 'Donde puedo obtener un principe Alberto?' Must admit Spanish in a Northern Irish accent is quite sexy.

[micls]

Well the Irish State seem to think the Irish language is important - hence it is now recognised as our first language in the EU. In my school years, Irish was never my best subject, but it has been useful in definining my nationality when travelling (really trying to explain that although I spoke English, I'm not English) by stating that Irish people have their own language and saying a few words that no one understood (nearly everyone has a few words of English)!

I know lots of Irish people who say they hate the Irish language (mostly because of poor teaching imo). None of them object to signposts with place names in both Irish and English in Ireland. Now, in NI you will find some unionists actively objecting to dual signage and that to me is rejecting their 'Irish' cultural heritage, most likely to feel more 'British'. You don't have two 'competing' national identities in Cork.

I consider all people born on the Island of Ireland to be Irish and its good to see that Blanch & Gather Round have no problems with accepting their Irish cultural heritage.

Whether the Irish state feels its important or not isn't really relevant as agreeing with the Irish state isnt a pre-requisite to being Irish.

This is your quote:



that if someone does not respect a key definer of the Irish nation, ie., its language (above politics imho) I would wonder as to how they could consider themselves to be Irish.

I dont see how rejecting Irish in Cork should be seen any differently as rejecting Irish in the North unless that person specifically rejects it on the basis that they dont want to be Irish.

In general I dont think an opinion ir lack of respect for the language or any other aspect of our culture has any affect on whether someone is Irish.

Anyone who is born on this island is Irish, as well as anything else they consider themselves i.e. UK.

What people define as 'Irish culture' has no effect on that.

I am fluent in Irish, play camogie, support my local football team, even did Irish dancing......am I any more Irish than Blanchflower and co? No, not at all. None of those things affect whether you are Irish are not. They are aspects of our past/culture people can choose to relate with and respect.

[Dodge]

I am fluent in Irish, play camogie, support my local football team, even did Irish dancing......am I any more Irish than Blanchflower and co?
if you have red hair, freckles and eat tons of spuds I'd say you were the most Irish person ever...

[lopez]

To turn that around (which I wasn't going to do) do you think that if a family move to England from Pakistan say and after 3 generations still only spoke Urdu and didn't speak English at all that they'd have difficulty being accepted as 'English' by everyone else?Plenty people like that here with British passports. :D Always cussed. Never mind the English that move to Spain and don't learn the lingo. Unlike GR here: 'Aye, aye, aye! Me duele mi pija. Creia que Principe Alberto era el marido de Reina Vitoria de Inglaterra?'

[Blanchflower]

That's an unbelievable statement and a new low.
My goodness.:eek: Why is it unbelievable and why is it "a new low"?


Where did anyone mention anything about you being able to speak Irish?
What do you mean? I don't think anyone has mentioned anything to me about being able to speak Irish.:confused:


The point was about a recognition of the language not fluency.
And? So what? My question remains valid - would it be helpful to an American or Australian to be able to recognise Native American or Aboriginal languages?


I assume you're acting the WUM or at least being very facetious.

Neither - I'm just curious about the implied point that it is difficult for an English-speaker to explain that they are not English and that being able to speak Irish (in the case of an Irish person) is helpful in explaining that one is not English. In my experience, I have never had such difficulty, hence my curiosity.

Since Australians and Americans, by and large, also speak English but are not English, I'm asking if janeymac thinks it would be helpful for them to be able to speak (sorry, recognise) Aboriginal or Native American languages.


To turn that around (which I wasn't going to do) do you think that if a family move to England from Pakistan say and after 3 generations still only spoke Urdu and didn't speak English at all that they'd have difficulty being accepted as 'English' by everyone else?
Sadly, some racists might never accept them as English, no matter how many generations they've been resident but I don't think that, generally speaking, there would be any difficulty in them being accepted as English. Indeed, I think it would be taken for granted.

Why do you ask, because I don't see how this is relevant - Janeymac was talking about people who aren't English and don't want to be thought of as English.

[EalingGreen]

Tell you what Ealing, remember when you pull out your passport at Las Palmas airport take a good long look at it. The country on it tells me everything I need to know about how 'Irish' you are. ;)

Can't make Las Palmas, but if I there, it would still say citizen of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" (quite appropriate, since I would be there to follow Northern Ireland). As such, it may fairly be described as an "Irish Passport", since it is issued by the Government of one part of
Ireland, to an Irishman from that same part of Ireland.

Which, since it is a mere document, used primarily by me for travel purposes, does not change or affect my status as an Irishman, born and bred. Which is why if I ever decided to apply for an Irish Passport issued by the Government of the other part of Ireland, my status as an Irishman born and bred would remain equally unchanged and unaffected.

Then again, possessing two Passports should not be a problem for anyone who is entirely comfortable with his own identity, as I am. ;)

[micls]

if you have red hair, No


frecklesSome


and eat tons of spuds

Yes :D

[Blanchflower]

And a Yorkshireman is no less British aswell.
Did someone say that he was?


I think the general argument before you popped in was citizenship as a criteria for playing for Ireland. You brought up the identity crisis to rubbish someone's identity..
I didn't - I was responding to others making allegations of identity crises.


As I keep reiterating, and will continue, being Irish while being an exclusive British citizen relegates one's Irishness to a regionality.
And presumably you think somene who is Irish and British is somehow "less" Irish than someone who is Irish only. That is the chauvinistic, ugly exclusivist attitude to which I object. I do not accept you as an authority to tell me or anyone else that I am "less" Irish because I am also British.


You didn't need to.
Of course. I didn't "need" to because I don't "need" to say things I don't believe. I never told anyone who has a passport of a country that he is not a citizen of that country. To do so would be nonsensical, given that passports are only available to citizens.


Sorry, I meant English (although all four 'countries' have had a dig over the 'grannys' at some time - my favourite being one welsh manager - Mike England? - when his team had about three players with no Welsh connections).
Still don't understand - the English population is the English population, made up of those who live there.


I couldn't care less who you choose.
Maybe you don't, but that doesn't alter the fact that, in my view, NI shouldn't pick players with no connection to NI, and, therefore, it is not inconsistent for me to have the same opinion about ROI.


And once you accepted the grannies the Republic's became stricter than yours.
Again, that doesn't alter the fact that in the 80s and 90s the NI criteria were stricter. It seems that you now accept this point, which previously you have been arguing against.


You can call it the 26C. The name of the place is Ireland.

If, by "Ireland" you mean the 26C, then its name is a misnomer, as I've pointed out.


Typical British. Claim something that isn't yours as your own. Like the English channel, and Mount Everest. As for that 'greater entity', you mean that 120 year disaster that came about when a sectarian parliament representing maybe 10 -15% of the population still needed to be bribed to join it. You make it sound like it was a partnership. LOL
I'll take that as a "no": you don't deny that Great Britain, Ireland and neighbouring isles were known as the British Isles? Nor that Great Britain and Ireland were once part of a "greater entity" (i.e. the UK of GB & Ireland).


Tell you what Ealing, remember when you pull out your passport at Las Palmas airport take a good long look at it. The country on it tells me everything I need to know about how 'Irish' you are.
Ironically, when Ealing does that he will read: "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"! :D