Eligibility proposal

[EalingGreen]

Ireland's Call HAS replaced our national anthem in away games. It makes me so angry that I actually cheered Argentina in that last match.

At least that allows you to support one half-decent international sports team, anyhow. ;)

(Though I'm sure the Irish Rugby team would be devastated if they knew they'd lost the support of people of your calibre and integrity...:eek:)

[EalingGreen]

Does David Healy (or non-residents) vote in Northern Ireland elections or pay tax in NI?

If Darren Gibson was resident (and registered himself) in a ROI electoral constituency for a General Election he would be able to vote because he has full Irish citizenship. People resident in Ireland without citizenship cannot vote in a General Election, they can however vote (if registered) in local elections, Euro elections. I think there are moves afoot for postal votes for non-resident Irish passport holders in the Presidential election (workable as you don't vote for candidates in a particular electoral constitutency).

We'd tax anyone resident here in the Republic and probably be all for taxing UK residents as well!

When Healy was resident in NI, or if he moved back to NI post-retirement, he would be allowed to vote in NI elections, and be responsible to pay his taxes etc. Moreover, whether living in NI or England, he is equally entitled to vote in elections to Westminster and responsible to pay taxes to the same Revenue in Whitehall. Exactly the same applies to Darron Gibson, too!

Whereas, DH or DG would only be entitled to vote in Dail or local elections, or be liable to pay tax etc, during the time either actually lived in the 26 counties. That is, they could not register in an ROI electoral constituency if they had never lived in the Republic.

Consequently, Gibson's "Britishness" - however unwelcome - actually grants more rights and imposes more responsibilities on him, in practical terms, than his "Irishness" does!

It also entitles him to play for a half-decent international football team - had he only the wit to know it! ;)

[janeymac]

When Healy was resident in NI, or if he moved back to NI post-retirement, he would be allowed to vote in NI elections, and be responsible to pay his taxes etc. Moreover, whether living in NI or England, he is equally entitled to vote in elections to Westminster and responsible to pay taxes to the same Revenue in Whitehall. Exactly the same applies to Darron Gibson, too!

Can Irish (ROI) passport holders vote in all British elections (note, I know you don't vote for a Head of State:))


Whereas, DH or DG would only be entitled to vote in Dail or local elections, or be liable to pay tax etc, during the time either actually lived in the 26 counties. That is, they could not register in an ROI electoral constituency if they had never lived in the Republic.

Consequently, Gibson's "Britishness" - however unwelcome - actually grants more rights and imposes more responsibilities on him, in practical terms, than his "Irishness" does!
Gibson can vote in Irish general elections if resident in ROI. Just the same as me as a ROI resident. I can't vote in ROI elections if I'm non-resident - just like Gibson.

If Healy intends retiring to Donegal and wants to vote in General Elections, he better get an Irish passport (and register). He will also be paying tax to Dublin. He better keep a pad in Belfast if he wants to vote in the NI ones!


It also entitles him to play for a half-decent international football team - had he only the wit to know it! ;)He has good cop on that lad, he realised that the competition was too great in NI's midfield and took the opportunity to follow in the footsteps of his boyhood hero, by playing in the same position as him for his club and country;)

[EalingGreen]

Can Irish (ROI) passport holders vote in all British elections (note, I know you don't vote for a Head of State:))


Although there are some conditions, as a general principle, if you're legally resident in the UK, you may register in your local constituency to vote in Westminster or local elections, irrespective of whether you hold a British or Irish Passport (or both). Consequently, DG may vote in the UK, but not the Irish Republic, despite his holding an Irish Passport and Irish citizenship, but not (presumably) their British equivalent. And people say he's as "Irish" as anyone else born on th island...




Gibson can vote in Irish general elections if resident in ROI. Just the same as me as a ROI resident.

If Gibson were resident in the ROI, we wouldn't be having this whole footballing eligibility debate in the first place! That's my whole point.



If Healy intends retiring to Donegal and wants to vote in General Elections, he better get an Irish passport (and register).

Healy can move to wherever he likes. And he if he could persuade that Government to grant him citizenship, after two years he can represent that country at football. So could Gibson. (Yes, I know they're already tied to NI and ROI, but you get my point).



He [Gibson] has good cop on that lad, he realised that the competition was too great in NI's midfield and took the opportunity to follow in the footsteps of his boyhood hero, by playing in the same position as him for his club and country;)

Presumably his loan to Wolves is following in the footsteps of another boyhood hero, Paul Butler? ;)

(But you're right about the competition in the NI midfield - if we have our first choice of Gillespie, Davis, Johnson and Brunt fit, Gibson would have to be content with a place on the bench. At best.)

[Not Brazil]

[QUOTE=Blanchflower;813866
It was reported that anti-Semitic chants and shouts were made from the crowd. I accept that the reports may not be accurate. .[/QUOTE]

Reported on this very site - by fervent ROI fans who were "ashamed to be Irish".

I don't suppose that Drumcondra would be suggesting for one minute that those fans were telling lies?:eek:

[Drumcondra 69er]

Although there are some conditions, as a general principle, if you're legally resident in the UK, you may register in your local constituency to vote in Westminster or local elections, irrespective of whether you hold a British or Irish Passport (or both). Consequently, DG may vote in the UK, but not the Irish Republic, despite his holding an Irish Passport and Irish citizenship, but not (presumably) their British equivalent. And people say he's as "Irish" as anyone else born on th island...




Vote early and vote often, eh? :D

Besides anything else, any other Irish footballer plying their trade in the UK is also entitled to vote. And if Gibson was to register in the ROI he'd have they vote here too, what's your point?

Healy wouldn't need an Irish passport either if he retired here, a UK passport entitles you to vote once you're resident in reciprocation for an Irish passport enabling you to vote while resident in the UK.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Reported on this very site - by fervent ROI fans who were "ashamed to be Irish".

I don't suppose that Drumcondra would be suggesting for one minute that those fans were telling lies?:eek:

Can only comment on what I saw and heard on the South Terrace. Anyone who said they were 'ashamed to be Irish' for any reason other then the capitulation from a two goal lead that day needs to get out more imo.

[lopez]

I am sure that most of it was. That, however, does not mean that all of it was..
We know that not all of it was 'politcial' as we have eye witness accounts of 'gangs' doing nazi salutes. This was outside the ground. I'm not getting into the 'they weren't Irish fans' rubbish, but the visit of Israel/Zionist Occupied Palestine is likely to attract certain elements of society with ulterior motives. Anti-Semitism (I'm talking what is known as neo-nazism rather than pro Palestinian lefties) in Ireland is compartively small compared with other parts of Europe - it had in the nineties three Jews elected TDs - but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. As Not Brazil states, this was debated by Irish fans - I think the media didn't report it, although I may be wrong.

see http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=25941&highlight=israel


I'm afraid I've lost track of how this argument arose and don't really have the patience to read back. All I know for sure is that some on these boards have attempted to play down sectarian booing by ROI fans on grounds of "it wasn't against our own players"..
Firstly I think that sectarianism is a misnomer,although the greater picture is full of sectarianism. The Danish player was not booed because he was a Protestant. Secondly he was an opponent. You think that it's the same as booing Neil Lennon. If you do, then that's fine. It shows that you really don't have a grasp on the difference in their significance.

No, on both counts. Why do you ask?
Simple. You are banging on about this Danish player and the 'sectarian' abuse he got. Me thinks it's because you support Rangers. However, if you have never supported them, it's clearly because you are looking for any rod to beat our back to take the heat off the booing of Neil Lennon. Go ahead.


I should have thought it was plain.

If you accept that citizenship alone doesn't entitle you to many of the "rights" and privileges of citizenship (e.g. voting, receiving public services, paying taxes, etc.), and many of these require birth and/or residence, then surely you could accept a situation whereby citizenship alone doesn't entitle you to play for the football team.No I don't. My citizenship is the same as my father - who was born in Ireland - with the only one exception: My children must have a foreign birth's certificate unless their other parent is Irish born. She is also Irish born outside of Ireland, but unlike me, has lived in Ireland. My children are still entitled to the same rights and privilages (or lack of them) as me and my father. He couldn't vote in Irish elections in Britain; he could in Ireland. So could I and so too can my children. We are entitled to the same rights as him in Ireland. The same applies to anyone born in the 6C with irish citizenship.Living abroad doesn't prevent anyone playing for their country, so I think you' re just fishing. You've got FA here on this subject.


I suppose that has a certain consistency, except that your actual choice of songs is flawed. If the SS is going to represent the Irish Republic, then its NI equivalent must be GSTQ.
Great for the British Lions. Totally unaceptable here. (Our citzenship laws do not extend to those living on what you consider 'the mainland.')

IPersonally, I think it inappropriate to have either song played, since these unnecessarily introduce a politically Nationalistic element which is neither helpful nor welcome.
The team represents two politcal entities as well as two nationalities. Our oponents have anthems. It's ridiculous that we have something that Father Ted would sing for the Eurovision Song Contest instead.

I
As for your suggestion of the Sash, presumably in order to "represent" NI, I find it frankly offensive that I should be represented by an Orange Song. I am not an Orangemen, never have been or never will be, in keeping with the vast majority of my fellow countrymen.
Save the mock offence. Have you ever been a Queen either? Same argument for the SS. If anyhing you might have sympahy for your nationalist neighbours at WP. I welcome another suggestion. Alternative Ulster? In the meantime, at least the Sash has support amongst a number of NI fans, and I know the words, and only only a bigot or a supersensitive PCer would be offended wth it beside the SS as anthems for the Irish rugby team. The South Africans have put up with the apartheid regime anthem; that must have taken a lot more guts than having the Sash played in Dublin.

I
As for your S.African analogy, afaik, they only play one anthem, the country's official anthem. (Albeit that that anthem incorporates Die Stem as a part of it).
One anthem, two anthems, it's the same principal.

I
And for the Ireland team, there's far too much fecking about with anthems, imo. They should just play the one anthem (Irelands Call), at full speed, so as we can get it and the 80 minutes blundering out of the way as quickly as possible, before repairing to the pub for the serious business of the day.But anthems are a reality (thankfully we don't have them in club football competitions like the CL). My suggestion is based on this: Take away anthems and replace them with some old sanitised dirge breeds resentment. Put in two representative anthems, side by side, and if people complain it's easier to see their protest as pure bigotry; 'What's the problem? You've still got your anthem. Can't the others have their anthem included, especially as they (hypothetically) make up more than half the team.'

[lopez]

Does David Healy (or non-residents) vote in Northern Ireland elections or pay tax in NI?

If Darren Gibson was resident (and registered himself) in a ROI electoral constituency for a General Election he would be able to vote because he has full Irish citizenship. People resident in Ireland without citizenship cannot vote in a General Election, they can however vote (if registered) in local elections, Euro elections. I think there are moves afoot for postal votes for non-resident Irish passport holders in the Presidential election (workable as you don't vote for candidates in a particular electoral constitutency).

We'd tax anyone resident here in the Republic and probably be all for taxing UK residents as well!Ireland is quite unique in that former residents are no longer allowed to vote in Irish elections. I'm sure you had the same thing a couple of weeks in Ireland, but here in London there were a number of makeshift polling stations for Poles to vote in their election. Imagine the number of polling booths for the Irish for Berties first election win.

The Irish are allowed the same rights as the British, even though they are not a part of the commonwealth. Residence, all elections, social security etc. The only exceptions are probably becoming MPs (not entirely sure) and the job of consort/spouse to the head of state is not open to most Irish people on account of their religion. That great Papist state may have its faults, but it's had two head of state (out of eight) that were Protestants.

[Blanchflower]

My children are still entitled to the same rights and privilages (or lack of them) as me and my father. He couldn't vote in Irish elections in Britain; he could in Ireland. So could I and so too can my children. We are entitled to the same rights as him in Ireland.

Nonsense. You would have to be in the South. You don't get to vote in ROI elections in the North.



The same applies to anyone born in the 6C with irish citizenship.Living abroad doesn't prevent anyone playing for their country, so I think you' re just fishing. You've got FA here on this subject.

I never said living abroad prevented anyone from playing for their country.:confused: I just pointed out that you accept that citizenship alone is not enough to enjoy all citizenship rights - therefore it's not much of a leap to accept that it might not be enough on its own (i.e. without residence, without birth, without parentage, without grandparentage) to get to play for the ROI team.

[janeymac]

Although there are some conditions, as a general principle, if you're legally resident in the UK, you may register in your local constituency to vote in Westminster or local elections, irrespective of whether you hold a British or Irish Passport (or both). Consequently, DG may vote in the UK, but not the Irish Republic, despite his holding an Irish Passport and Irish citizenship, but not (presumably) their British equivalent. And people say he's as "Irish" as anyone else born on th island...

The situation in the ROI is that DG (with his Irish passport) once registered on the Register of Electors can vote in all elections here.

If David Healey (resident in ROI, presumably with only a British passport) is registered on the ROI Register of Electors, cannot vote in ROI Presidential elections or in Referenda (and we have a fair few here, as with a written Irish Constitution, the only way it can be changed is by Referenda (unlike in the UK, where Westminster can pretty well make it up as they go along).

To be very clear on this, Gibson can vote in these 2 elections if resident & registered in the ROI that Healy cannot with only his British passport (also resident & registered).


If Gibson were resident in the ROI, we wouldn't be having this whole footballing eligibility debate in the first place! That's my whole point.

Healy can move to wherever he likes. And he if he could persuade that Government to grant him citizenship, after two years he can represent that country at football. So could Gibson. (Yes, I know they're already tied to NI and ROI, but you get my point).Mary McAlease (born in Belfast and resident in NI at the time), and Dana (born in Derry and resident in the US at the time) were eligible to put themselves forward for the highest office in the ROI (the Presidency), I'm having difficulty swallowing the extra residential rule you want for DG to be able to represent ROI on the football pitch!

[janeymac]

One anthem, two anthems, it's the same principal.
But anthems are a reality (thankfully we don't have them in club football competitions like the CL). My suggestion is based on this: Take away anthems and replace them with some old sanitised dirge breeds resentment. Put in two representative anthems, side by side, and if people complain it's easier to see their protest as pure bigotry; 'What's the problem? You've still got your anthem. Can't the others have their anthem included, especially as they (hypothetically) make up more than half the team.'

Agree with you here ... most of the problems have arisen out of Ireland's Call being such a dirge. I haven't heard anyone from the Republic not acknowledge that the sentiment is correct in Ireland's Call being inclusive, but there is a certain resentment at the complaints of AnaB from some (not all by a long shot) vocal Ulster/NI supporters who apparently find it difficult to stand for AnaB. It does just smell of bigotry.

[Blanchflower]

If David Healey (resident in ROI, presumably with only a British passport) is registered on the ROI Register of Electors, cannot vote in ROI Presidential elections or in Referenda (and we have a fair few here, as with a written Irish Constitution, the only way it can be changed is by Referenda (unlike in the UK, where Westminster can pretty well make it up as they go along).

To be very clear on this, Gibson can vote in these 2 elections if resident & registered in the ROI that Healy cannot with only his British passport (also resident & registered).


You need to have a passport to vote in a Southern election?:eek:

Weird rules down there. Some kind of revenue-raising idea from the Government to force everyone to buy a passport? Do non-passport-holders not agitate against their disenfranchisement?

[janeymac]

You need to have a passport to vote in a Southern election?:eek:

Weird rules down there. Some kind of revenue-raising idea from the Government to force everyone to buy a passport? Do non-passport-holders not agitate against their disenfranchisement?

Don't be silly, a passport is used for identification when putting yourself onto the Register of Electors - you are then sent a Voting Card which is what you have to produce when you present yourself at the polling booths. As I was born in the ROI (many years ago) and I don't think I had a passport at the time, I produced a birth cert when registering. Non residents eligible for a Irish citizenship usually do so by claiming an Irish passport.

[Blanchflower]

Don't be silly, a passport is used for identification when putting yourself onto the Register of Electors - you are then sent a Voting Card which is what you have to produce when you present yourself at the polling booths. As I was born in the ROI (many years ago) and I don't think I had a passport at the time, I produced a birth cert when registering. Non residents eligible for a Irish citizenship usually do so by claiming an Irish passport.

So you don't need a passport (birth certificate will do) - hence your reference to passports was wrong.

[youngirish]

For the rugby I reckon the best solution is to get Norman Cooke to bring his decks over to Lansdowne road and to do a mix containing samples from both Amhrán na bhFiann and the Sash laid on top of a heavy dance beat. That would keep everyone happy on both sides of the political divide, particularly the pill heads.

[geysir]

Filling out a pdf form is enough to get on the register to vote, the condition is that you are resident when applying Sept 1 deadline for inclusion the following year.
You just have to state your citizenship/saoránacht

FIFA established the annex criteria for those who are acquiring citizenship.
FIFA are quite content that being entitled to be a citizen at birth is enough connection with that country without any extra conditions.

It makes sense to me, an Irish Citizen born in the North is on the scale of things more connected to the Republic than most lads with one grandparent born away from the Island.
N I nationals have a choice, that choice is recognized by the Bunreacht na hEireann and the GFA.
Hard to minimize the connection to the Republic as less that the minimum standard of the Annex criteria, one grandparent.

[janeymac]

So you don't need a passport (birth certificate will do) - hence your reference to passports was wrong.

Well, if you want to be pedantic I was wrong in saying you needed a passport. Happy now?

You need a birth cert (among other things) to get a passport which is much handier than a birth cert as it actually has a photo id on it.

[ifk101]

For the rugby I reckon the best solution is to get Norman Cooke to bring his decks over to Lansdowne road and to do a mix containing samples from both Amhrán na bhFiann and the Sash laid on top of a heavy dance beat. That would keep everyone happy on both sides of the political divide, particularly the pill heads.

There'll always be something somebody will whinge about ....

[janeymac]

It makes sense to me, an Irish Citizen born in the North is on the scale of things more connected to the Republic than most lads with one grandparent born away from the Island.
N I nationals have a choice, that choice is recognized by the Bunreacht na hEireann and the GFA.
Hard to minimize the connection to the Republic as less that the minimum standard of the Annex criteria, one grandparent.

Unionists do as well. I know a few people who would come from the unionist community who exercise their right to dual citizenship!

[Blanchflower]

Well, if you want to be pedantic I was wrong in saying you needed a passport. Happy now?

You need a birth cert (among other things) to get a passport which is much handier than a birth cert as it actually has a photo id on it.

So a Southern-resident David Healy would not need a Southern passport in order to vote, contrary to what you said earlier?

[ifk101]

So a Southern-resident David Healy would not need a Southern passport in order to vote, contrary to what you said earlier?

Like I told you before there's no south or southern. Have a bit of manners.

[Blanchflower]

FIFA established the annex criteria for those who are acquiring citizenship.
FIFA are quite content that being entitled to be a citizen at birth is enough connection with that country without any extra conditions.

Currently, but the IFA should be pushing to change it to stop NI (and possibly other countries) being disadvantaged by the extra-territorial laws of other countries.



It makes sense to me, an Irish Citizen born in the North is on the scale of things more connected to the Republic than most lads with one grandparent born away from the Island.

You're confusing "the Island" with the Republic. NI is not part of the Republic. So lads who are citizens with one grandparent born in the Republic have more connection than you as a citizen with no grandparents born there.

[janeymac]

So a Southern-resident David Healy would not need a Southern passport in order to vote, contrary to what you said earlier?

Well, if he considers himself to be British (by holding a British passport and not exercising his right to an Irish passport*) why would he want to vote in ROI Presidential elections / or effect change in Bunreacht na hÉireann that require Irish citizenship? If I was living in the UK and I had an option to vote for a Head of State (Queen's job), I don't think I'd be bothered to vote.

*A passport is just official documentation of proving your identity (and nationality).

Reference to who can vote in Presidential election - same requirement for Referenda.

"The President is formally elected by the people once every seven years, except in the event of premature vacancy, when an election must be held within sixty days.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Ireland#_note-coiart12-3) The President is directly elected by secret ballot under the Alternative Vote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_Vote) form of the Single Transferable Vote system.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Ireland#_note-0) While both Irish and UK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) citizens resident in the state may vote in elections to Dáil Éireann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1il_%C3%89ireann) (the lower house of parliament), only Irish citizens, who must be at least eighteen years of age, may vote in the election of the President. The presidency is open to all citizens of the state who are at least 35.[3]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Ireland#_note-coiart12-4)


All you need to know about Irish citizenship http://search.gov.ie/cached/?url=http://www.citizensinformationboard.ie/publications/relate/june2004.pdf

[geysir]

Currently, but the IFA should be pushing to change it to stop NI (and possibly other countries) being disadvantaged by the extra-territorial laws of other countries.


You're confusing "the Island" with the Republic. NI is not part of the Republic. So lads who are citizens with one grandparent born in the Republic have more connection than you as a citizen with no grandparents born there.
I have no confusion over political boundaries.
Don´t you get it yet?
Political boundaries do not affect the Irish citizenship gaurenteed to Island born according to all constitutions north and south.
Distant bloodline has priority if you think like a Royalist.
A political division has not diluted the strength of Nationalist connection to the Republic.
FIFA totally agree that eligibility criteria is satisfied with the strength and quality of that connection.
Northern Nationalists availing of that citizenship right (for non football related reasons) in large numbers is enough practical proof of the connection to the Republic, that is evidently clear to all except Unionist inclined in the North.

FIFA´s alarm bells would have been ringing a long time ago if they had any doubt or if they thought the FAI was gaining advantage by exploiting a technicality in the Statutes.

[Blanchflower]

Well, if he considers himself to be British (by holding a British passport and not exercising his right to an Irish passport*) why would he want to vote in ROI Presidential elections / or effect change in Bunreacht na hÉireann that require Irish citizenship?

No idea ... it was you who introduced the idea! :eek::confused:

If I was living in the UK and I had an option to vote for a Head of State (Queen's job), I don't think I'd be bothered to vote.


*A passport is just official documentation of proving your identity (and nationality).

I know.


While both Irish and UK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) citizens resident in the state may vote in elections to Dáil Éireann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1il_%C3%89ireann) (the lower house of parliament), only Irish citizens, who must be at least eighteen years of age, may vote in the election of the President. " (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Ireland#_note-coiart12-4)


Says nothing about needing a passport.

[lopez]

Nonsense. You would have to be in the South. You don't get to vote in ROI elections in the North.
You can have the vote in Irish elections in Donegal. :rolleyes:

I never said living abroad prevented anyone from playing for their country.:confused: I just pointed out that you accept that citizenship alone is not enough to enjoy all citizenship rights - therefore it's not much of a leap to accept that it might not be enough on its own (i.e. without residence, without birth, without parentage, without grandparentage) to get to play for the ROI team.It might not be enough to enjoy voting rights outside the country, but it's enough to play for the country, either inside or outside. WIth the exception of players granted citizenship purely on playing ability, no non citizen is exempt from playing for their country. That's what we're discussing here, no?

So you don't need a passport (birth certificate will do) - hence your reference to passports was wrong.Are you a wind up merchant or just plain stoopid? As proof, passports (or other form of citizenship) for Irish citizens born outside the 26C. Birth certificate for those born within.

[Blanchflower]

I have no confusion over political boundaries.


Then how come you conflated "the Island" with the Republic? You may have citizenship by living in "the Island", but someone with citizenship from outside the island (and therefore outside the state), but who has a grandparent born in the state, has more of a connection than you do (also from outside the state) with no grandparents born in the state.


Political boundaries do not affect the Irish citizenship gaurenteed to Island born according to all constitutions north and south.

I know. Hence the problems we're discussing with NI players.


FIFA totally agree that eligibility criteria is satisfied with the strength and quality of that connection.

Well, they agree it is satisfied simply by virtue of citizenship. It's unlikely that they were moved by the "strength" and "quality" of "northern nationalist feelings!

[Blanchflower]

It might not be enough to enjoy voting rights outside the country, but it's enough to play for the country, either inside or outside.
Yes, we know that, thanks.

The discussion is about the possibility of new rules which might mean it is no longer enough.


WIth the exception of players granted citizenship purely on playing ability, no non citizen is exempt from playing for their country.
Not so. Someone granted citizenship for reasons other than playing ability, and without the necessary connections, would also be ineligible.

Someone with dual nationality who has already played for another country is also ineligible.


As proof, passports (or other form of citizenship) for Irish citizens born outside the 26C. Birth certificate for those born within.
Odd that people born in NI with a supposed "birthright" of citizenship can't vote without producing a passport.

[janeymac]

Then how come you conflated "the Island" with the Republic? You may have citizenship by living in "the Island", but someone with citizenship from outside the island (and therefore outside the state), but who has a grandparent born in the state, has more of a connection than you do (also from outside the state) with no grandparents born in the state.

I know. Hence the problems we're discussing with NI players.

Well, they agree it is satisfied simply by virtue of citizenship. It's unlikely that they were moved by the "strength" and "quality" of "northern nationalist feelings!

Below is what the Constitution of the ROI says about citizenship. The Constitution is a very powerful document, it can't be changed without a referendum, anything in it has the approval of a majority of all those eligible to vote in the ROI. So, what you have here are ROI voters saying that we recognise that anyone born on the island of Ireland is entitled to Irish citizenship automatically and have the protection, rights and privileges as anyone born in the ROI.

As you will see, this change to the Constitution was effected in 1999 when Darron Gibson was about 10! I'm sure the legal eagles in FIFA would have noticed that.

What the Constitution says
There are two articles of the Constitution which deal with
citizenship. Article 2 which became part of the Constitution on
2 December 1999 as a result of the Good Friday agreement (the
Northern Ireland peace agreement or the Belfast Agreement)
states:

“It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of
Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish nation.
That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in
accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish
nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living
abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage.”

The effect of this is that every person born on the island of Ireland is
entitled to be an Irish citizen and, as this is a constitutional right, it
cannot be changed by law. Before 2 December 1999, everyone born in
Ireland did have the right to be an Irish citizen but the right arose from
legislation and not from the Constitution.

FIFA propably had no problem figuring this one out - i.e., IFA is referred to as a British Association and well, the FAI is known as an Irish Association.:)

[lopez]

Yes, we know that, thanks.
The discussion is about the possibility of new rules which might mean it is no longer enough..
What 'new rules'? New rules in your head more like. :D

Not so. Someone granted citizenship for reasons other than playing ability, and without the necessary connections, would also be ineligible.
Would or are?


Someone with dual nationality who has already played for another country is also ineligible..
If they are under 21 and haven't played for the 'A' team. Personally I'd like to see a return to the days that apart from schools representative sides, you should not play for more than one country.

Odd that people born in NI with a supposed "birthright" of citizenship can't vote without producing a passport.Odd that someone like me with a 'ancestral link' to what you term 'the south (sic.)' and with Irish citizenship can't pass on my citizenship to my children without a FBC, while those born in that equally foreign, and in no way connected to the 26C, part of the world you call 'Northern Ireland', can. My wife has an ancestral link (mother) to the 26C, and lived in the 26C for more than two years, but can't pass on her Irish citizenship automatically; her father who has no ancestral link and never lived in the 26C could because he's from Belfast. What's your point here?

Foreign Births Registration
A person born abroad to a parent who, although not born in Ireland, was otherwise an Irish citizen at the time of the person’s birth, can become an Irish citizen by applying for Foreign Births Registration, either to the Irish Diplomatic or Consular Mission nearest to where the applicant normally resides...

see http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=267

To answer your question, maybe they can. All they need is a birth certificate showing that they were born in Ireland prior to 2004 to prove they're entitled to Irish citizenship.

[Blanchflower]

Below is what the Constitution of the ROI says about citizenship. The Constitution is a very powerful document, it can't be changed without a referendum, anything in it has the approval of a majority of all those eligible to vote in the ROI.
No sh1t.:eek:


As you will see, this change to the Constitution was effected in 1999 when Darron Gibson was about 10! I'm sure the legal eagles in FIFA would have noticed that.

People in NI have always been entitled to Southern citizenship.

[geysir]

Then how come you conflated "the Island" with the Republic?
I didn´t


I know. Hence the problems we're discussing with NI players.

We are discussing the eligibility of Irish citizens born in NI



Well, they agree

yes, FIFA do agree without qualification


it is satisfied simply by virtue of citizenship.

Citizenship was not enough for the Brazilians to demonstrate links to Qatar


It's unlikely that they were moved by the "strength" and "quality" of "northern nationalist feelings!
Who the féck said anything about feelings :confused:
I wrote
"FIFA totally agree that eligibility criteria is satisfied with the strength and quality of that connection"
Connection is being linked.
Strength means strong links.
Quality of connection as evident in full automatic citizenship.
Full automatic citizenship demonstrates to most everybody else (on the planet) the quality of the connection to the Republic.

[janeymac]

Then how come you conflated "the Island" with the Republic? You may have citizenship by living in "the Island", but someone with citizenship from outside the island (and therefore outside the state), but who has a grandparent born in the state, has more of a connection than you do (also from outside the state) with no grandparents born in the state.


What a load of bull! Who are you to make a sweeping statement like that. For all you know, Darron Gibson could have spent all his summers in Donegal with his granny/auntie who moved there 30 years ago!

[Blanchflower]

What 'new rules'? New rules in your head more like.
The rule change I've been proposing for the past few days, and which - ironically - you have been discussing.


Would or are?

Are.


If they are under 21 and haven't played for the 'A' team.

That's right.



Personally I'd like to see a return to the days that apart from schools representative sides, you should not play for more than one country.
Me too.



Odd that someone like me with a 'ancestral link' to what you term 'the south (sic.)' and with Irish citizenship can't pass on my citizenship to my children without a FBC, while those born in that equally foreign, and in no way connected to the 26C, part of the world you call 'Northern Ireland', can.

On the face of it, I agree it's odd. But anyone with a knowledge of Irish nationalism and its 32-county territorial obsession would not be surprised.



My wife has an ancestral link (mother) to the 26C, and lived in the 26C for more than two years, but can't pass on her Irish citizenship automatically; her father who has no ancestral link and never lived in the 26C could because he's from Belfast. What's your point here?

I think you made the point by describing it as odd.



To answer your question, maybe they can. All they need is a birth certificate showing that they were born in Ireland prior to 2004 to prove they're entitled to Irish citizenship.

So, far from being "stoopid", I was right.:)

[janeymac]

No sh1t.:eek:


People in NI have always been entitled to Southern citizenship.

But it has not always been a Constitutional right!

[Blanchflower]

What a load of bull! Who are you to make a sweeping statement like that. For all you know, Darron Gibson could have spent all his summers in Donegal with his granny/auntie who moved there 30 years ago!
For all you know, so too might the person from England or wherever.

[Blanchflower]

But it has not always been a Constitutional right!
The effect is the exact same.

[janeymac]

The effect is the exact same.

No its not - the difference is that Darron Gibson, with his automatic Constitutional right to ROI citizenship, is in a far stronger position than what it was before.

If he as an Irish citizen is treated differently (discriminated against) in comparison to other ROI citizens (born in Republic) there is a mechanism where he can pursue a human rights case with the Gov. of Ireland for not complying with the ROI's Constitution.

[lopez]

The rule change I've been proposing for the past few days, and which - ironically - you have been discussing.
The NI team being underepresented of Catholics, the Northern Ireland flag not being based on the St. George's Cross, anti-Semitism of the Irish fan, Irish citizenship. I haven't been discussing any rule change, because there isn't any rule change to talk about. The only thing I'm discussing re FIFA's rules is that someone from NI is entitled to play for his country. You can bang on about changing the rules. I'm not one bit interested in that whatsoever. Bang away! Might bang some sense into you.

I think you made the point by describing it as odd.
Odd, as in I was being ironic.:rolleyes: Irish person born in Ireland of Irish born parents and grandparents is more entitled to Irish citizenship than Irish person born outside Ireland of Irish persons also born outside of Ireland. Hmmmm??!! Might not fit everybody, but it's fair from my point of view.

So, far from being "stoopid", I was right.:)
Right about what?

[lopez]

Talking about the Qatar case, it must be pretty easy getting Qatari citizenship if you are not a gifted Brazilian footballer. I mean, two years should do it, no?

Qatar’s government is keen to protect the status quo and doesn’t want to compromise its cultural values or standard of living by allowing foreigners to become a permanent part of society.

Really? What about marriage?

Your only route to becoming a naturalised citizen is by marriage to a national; even this, however, doesn’t guarantee citizenship, particularly for non-Muslims.

Even after years of residence?

In exceptional circumstances only, Qatar’s ruler might grant citizenship to a foreigner who has provided outstanding service to the state over a number of years.

Or none if you're a good footballer and Brazilian.

A generous employer might reward a loyal worker who has made a major contribution to the company over many years by providing him with a work and residence permit of indefinite duration. After your retirement, however, the employer would have to be a figure of considerable influence to maintain this gift and satisfy the labour authorities. In this case, you wouldn’t be a citizen, but merely be allowed to remain in the country indefinitely.

Unless you're a good footballer and Brazilian. But surely if you are born in Qatar, you must be a Qatari citizen, just like if you are born in the O6C you are British and Northern Irish like it or not?

Children of foreigners born in Qatar don’t have rights of local citizenship and automatically assume the nationality of the parents. If one of the parents is a national of Qatar, the child will usually be granted local nationality and may later become a national of Qatar and obtain a local passport. It’s recommended that you fully acquaint yourself with the implications of giving birth in Qatar.

Take it a Foreign Birth's certificate is out of the question.

In many cases, the child isn’t affected, but any children that he has might not enjoy the same rights of nationality, citizenship, abode, etc. as his parents and grandparents.

Lookiong at that, you can see why FIFA are so p*ssed off with Qatar, and why they see a difference with Ireland where 'Every person born on the island of Ireland before 1 January, 2005 is entitled to be an Irish citizen. The citizenship of a person born on the island of Ireland on or after 1 January, 2005 depends on the citizenship of the person's parents at the time of the person's birth or the residency history of one of the parents prior to the birth.'

http://www.justlanded.com/english/qatar/tools/just_landed_guide/visas_permits/citizenship

http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=267

[Blanchflower]

No its not - the difference is that Darron Gibson, with his automatic Constitutional right to ROI citizenship, is in a far stronger position than what it was before.

Nonsense. People from NI had the same ability to be an ROI citizen before 1999 as they did after. The fact that it's in the constitution just means it's more difficult to change the law.


If he as an Irish citizen is treated differently (discriminated against) in comparison to other ROI citizens (born in Republic) there is a mechanism where he can pursue a human rights case with the Gov. of Ireland for not complying with the ROI's Constitution.
If there were no constitutional provision he could still pursue a "human rights case". And the "human rights case" would stand up regardless of whether there were a constitutional provision or a mere statutory provision.

[Blanchflower]

I haven't been discussing any rule change, because there isn't any rule change to talk about.
Zzzzzzzz. Proposed rule change, then.


Odd, as in I was being ironic.:rolleyes: Irish person born in Ireland of Irish born parents and grandparents is more entitled to Irish citizenship than Irish person born outside Ireland of Irish persons also born outside of Ireland. Hmmmm??!! Might not fit everybody, but it's fair from my point of view.

You're confusing the state with the island again - you deliberately refer to "Ireland" - but there are two states on Ireland. You can be Irish without being from the Republic or without being an ROI citizen. It's odd for people born outside of the territory of a state to - as of right - be citizens of that state. Therefore it's odd for people born in NI to be citizens of the Republic as of right.


Right about what?
Not needing a passport.

[geysir]

Proof positive about the benificial effects of the FIFA sanctioned eligibility to play for Ireland.
It's an honour to have lads like McGeady, Kilbane and Gibson, after reaching the required standard, to be selected for their country.

Darron "delighted with FIFA's surprise proposall"
http://www.derryjournal.com/journal-sport/39Gibby39-delighted-with-FIFA39s-surprise.3461378.jp

[janeymac]

Nonsense. People from NI had the same ability to be an ROI citizen before 1999 as they did after. The fact that it's in the constitution just means it's more difficult to change the law.


If there were no constitutional provision he could still pursue a "human rights case". And the "human rights case" would stand up regardless of whether there were a constitutional provision or a mere statutory provision.

But it probably rules out any 'gentleman's agreement' between the IFA & FAI about selection, with the FAI being heavily funded by the Irish Gov.

[geysir]

Personally I'd like to see a return to the days that apart from schools representative sides, you should not play for more than one country.
What days were those Lopez? How far do you go back?
Pre Tony Mancini days? :)

From the early 70´s for about 30 years onwards, the criteria for eligibility for changing national team was very loose before the present criteria made it stricter.
AFAIR the only thing barring a dual national changing (ca.1972 - 2003 ) was if he was already capped at senior level in a competitive game, (a qualification game).

I'd consider imposing such a restriction, once capped at youth level = tied for life, as draconian.
FIFA present criteria for changing national teams is a fair piece of legislation.

[Blanchflower]

Out of interest, how many of the infamous '94 team against Italy would have qualified for the ROI team if today's rules applied?

[Lionel Ritchie]

Out of interest, how many of the infamous '94 team against Italy would have qualified for the ROI team if today's rules applied?

All but McAteer at a guess.
EDIT: correcting myself already ..Triggs didn't start

[Not Brazil]

there is a certain resentment at the complaints of AnaB from some (not all by a long shot) vocal Ulster/NI supporters who apparently find it difficult to stand for AnaB. It does just smell of bigotry.

Bigotry on the part of whom?:confused:

[Blanchflower]

All but McAteer at a guess.

Was Houghton an ROI citizen? Aldridge?