Eligibility proposal [Archive] - Page 11

lopez

14/11/2007, 4:39 PM

Out of interest, how many of the infamous '94 team against Italy would have qualified for the ROI team if today's rules applied?All of them. They all qualified for an Irish passport. Even Cascarino, although his mother was adopted by an Irish family.

Not really. NI has never availed of non-Irishmen to the extent that the South has. We've never had a situation like you did when the majority of players were English and Scottish, and the team was based around the granny-rulers.All of Ireland's internationals prior to Gibson qualified by your much vaunted ancestry rule. The players mentioned by Lionel have no connection with the O6C or any part of Ireland. Your statement that NI 'has never availed of non-Irishmen to the extent that the South has' is laughable. I'd suggest that this is down to not that many naturalised Britons with no connection with the O6C have been desperate enough is the reason for this. :D

Gather round

14/11/2007, 5:17 PM

I think you need to quote some evidence for that claim, Blanche. My instinct is that we've used as many players growing up outside Ireland as they have, over the last 30 years say.

We have three in the current squad- Taylor, Capaldi and Paterson from the Scunthorpe problem.

Blanchflower

14/11/2007, 5:58 PM

I haven't heard of a ROI citizen.
I am an Irish citizen, my passport says Citizen of Ireland.

I'm sure it does say citizen of "Ireland", but I'm sure you know that that only means ROI - Ireland is the whole island, which contains two countries.

Yes, one grandparent qualifies for Irish citizenship.

That can't be right because in a recent constitutional amendment, the law was changed to anyone born in Ireland with at least one ROI-citizen parent. If neither of your parents is an ROI citizen, but your grandparent was, then how could you get citizenship?

Not only that but you also satisfy FIFA criteria, having one grandparent is sufficient to establish enough connection to that country in order to satisfy FIFA's standards of eligibilty.

No - you need to be a citizen. Grandparentage alone isn't enough.

Blanchflower

14/11/2007, 6:02 PM

All of them. They all qualified for an Irish passport. Even Cascarino, although his mother was adopted by an Irish family.

Thanks - but how does that square with the citizenship rules today ... see above. Presumably their parents were ROI citizens, although not born in ROI?

All of Ireland's internationals prior to Gibson qualified by your much vaunted ancestry rule.

I know. One wonders why the sudden change of policy has come about in recent times.

The players mentioned by Lionel have no connection with the O6C or any part of Ireland.

I know. That's why I was asking about them.

Your statement that NI 'has never availed of non-Irishmen to the extent that the South has' is laughable.

It's not. Name on NI team where the majority of players weren't from NI. In the Charlton era, ROI teams regularly had 4, 5, 6 and non-Irish players.

I'd suggest that this is down to not that many naturalised Britons with no connection with the O6C have been desperate enough is the reason for this.
There have been very few of these.

lopez

14/11/2007, 6:37 PM

Thanks - but how does that square with the citizenship rules today ... see above. Presumably their parents were ROI citizens, although not born in ROI?
What recent change of ammendment? Whadaf*ck are you on about now?
The recent ammendment concerned the denial of everyone born in Ireland having automatic citizenship (primarily the children of illegal immigrants and asylum seekers).

Ireland recognises dual nationality. It also, according to DFA General information on Citizenship, the paragraph on 'Citizenship through descent' it states:

If either of your parents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, you are an Irish citizen, irrespective of your place of birth (unless one of the special conditions relating to birth outside Ireland applies; these are described below). If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born in Ireland, then you are an Irish citizen.

If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born outside Ireland, and any of your grandparents was born in Ireland, then you are entitled to become an Irish citizen, and can do so by having your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register maintained by the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs. You can do this by applying to your nearest Irish embassy or consular office.

If you are of the third or subsequent generation born abroad to an Irish citizen (in other words, one of your parents is an Irish citizen but none of your parents or grandparents was born in Ireland), you may be entitled to become an Irish citizen by having your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register; this depends on whether the parent through whom you derive Irish citizenship had himself or herself become an Irish citizen by being registered in the Foreign Births Register before you were born.

http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=267

Basically all the 'granny rulers' would qualify through a parent being recognised as an Irish citizen through one of their parents being Irish - the granny.

I know. One wonders why the sudden change of policy has come about in recent times.
What changes of policy? The emigration pool is drying up, that's why there are fewer qualifying through a granny.

It's not. Name on NI team where the majority of players weren't from NI. In the Charlton era, ROI teams regularly had 4, 5, 6 and non-Irish players.
It had 11 Irish players as defined by qualification for Irish citizenship. Your boys born in Norway, Channel Islands, Osnabruck, Jamaica wouldn't qualify for NI citizenship if there were such a thing (Chris and Jimmy Nichol etc. I have no problem with, and I hope neither do you)

There have been very few of these.Exactly!

geysir

14/11/2007, 9:20 PM

That can't be right because in a recent constitutional amendment, the law was changed to anyone born in Ireland with at least one ROI-citizen parent. If neither of your parents is an ROI citizen, but your grandparent was, then how could you get citizenship?
I trust Lopez has put you right on that. If not just read the Irish Citizenship web page.

No - you need to be a citizen. Grandparentage alone isn't enough.
Sound a bit sore?
I am sure with a teeny weeny exercise in flexibility you could have deduced from the context of my reply that citizenship (if not spelled out) was assumed.

"Yes, one grandparent qualifies for Irish citizenship. Not only that but you also satisfy FIFA criteria, having one grandparent is sufficient to establish enough connection to that country in order to satisfy FIFA's standards of eligibilty."

Have you tried to explain the context for the use of the Annex Criteria to the NI fans?
There would appear to be widespread ignorance spreading from the IFA downwards, in all directions actually.

lopez

14/11/2007, 10:04 PM

What days were those Lopez? How far do you go back?
Pre Tony Mancini days? :)

From the early 70�s for about 30 years onwards, the criteria for eligibility for changing national team was very loose before the present criteria made it stricter.
AFAIR the only thing barring a dual national changing (ca.1972 - 2003 ) was if he was already capped at senior level in a competitive game, (a qualification game).

I'd consider imposing such a restriction, once capped at youth level = tied for life, as draconian.
FIFA present criteria for changing national teams is a fair piece of legislation.The criteria in the early 80s was 45 minutes. An Argentinian was seeking Spanish citizenship to be the third foreigner for Valencia (forgotten his name but can find out). He was allowed to be considered Spanish as he played less than 45 minutes in one match for Argentina. He was never picked for Spain, but in an era when only 2 foreigners were allowed to play for a Spanish club, his career was given a boost.

It's purely a side issue here. Just my opinion. You can only play for one country, so that decision should be taken at any age post schools teams. However, unlike Blanchflower, I have no intention of lobbying FIFA etc. to have this rule changed. ;)

I think you need to quote some evidence for that claim, Blanche. My instinct is that we've used as many players growing up outside Ireland as they have, over the last 30 years say.I'd be surprised if it were the same. Prior to the 'troubles' emigration from the 26C. I have no problem if there were 11 players who had just one grandparent from the 6C playing for NI. What I find laughable is the banging on about 'begging' when the NI team has players with no residential or ancestral or even political links with NI.

We have three in the current squad...Capaldi...Sounds like that Steakknife bloke. :D

Blanchflower

14/11/2007, 10:12 PM

What recent change of ammendment? Whadaf*ck are you on about now?
The recent ammendment concerned the denial of everyone born in Ireland having automatic citizenship (primarily the children of illegal immigrants and asylum seekers).

Yes, so if you weren't born in Ireland and neither were your parents, how do you qualify as a citizen?

If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born outside Ireland, and any of your grandparents was born in Ireland, then you are entitled to become an Irish citizen, and can do so by having your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register maintained by the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs. You can do this by applying to your nearest Irish embassy or consular office.

This answers my question - so Houghton and Aldridge must have had their births registered in the "Foreign Births Register" (assuming this was the law at the time).

Blanchflower

14/11/2007, 10:14 PM

I am sure with a teeny weeny exercise in flexibility you could have deduced from the context of my reply that citizenship (if not spelled out) was assumed.

No. You said: Not only that but you also satisfy FIFA criteria, having one grandparent is sufficient to establish enough connection to that country in order to satisfy FIFA's standards of eligibilty.

geysir

14/11/2007, 10:54 PM

The longer you stay here the more you are morphing into a pedant clone of Ealing Green.
Is it a one personality fits all kind of thing?

lopez

15/11/2007, 11:08 AM

Yes, so if you weren't born in Ireland and neither were your parents, how do you qualify as a citizen?

This answers my question - so Houghton and Aldridge must have had their births registered in the "Foreign Births Register" (assuming this was the law at the time).At least one of Houghton's parents were from the 26C (Donegal). Aldridge, Townsend, Cascarino (is that it??) acquired a FBC as it was a grandparent who was Irish. The offspring of this grandparent (the player's parent) would have been deemed an Irish citizen automatically as a child of a person born in Ireland (32C). This procedure - claiming foreign born offspring as their own citizens - is something not confined to Ireland. I've heard of cases of citizens being forced into conscription in Italy and Turkey through this. Personally, I was never affected re Spain, as until 2003, Spain only regarded someone born abroad as Spanish if they had a Spanish born father, not mother.

To renounce citizenship entails the process of 'Declaration of Alienage'; this process is usually done when switching nationality to a country that doesn't recognise dual-nationality (e.g.: Spain, Germany). As I have never gone through this process, nor ever needed to, and as I was born before 1981 in Britain, I am regarded as a British citizen by the United Kingdom government, and therefore I have no entitlement to legal support from the Irish government if I am, for instance, arrested in Britain. In any legal business where the question arises, I always mention I have dual nationality - to say I haven't would be a lie - even though I've never had a British passport, nor intend to ever have one.

Blanchflower

15/11/2007, 11:29 AM

At least one of Houghton's parents were from the 26C (Donegal).

So Houghton qualified through a parent and wasn't actually a granny-ruler.

As I have never gone through this process, nor ever needed to, and as I was born before 1981 in Britain, I am regarded as a British citizen by the United Kingdom government, and therefore I have no entitlement to legal support from the Irish government if I am, for instance, arrested in Britain.
Is that because of where you are arrested, i.e. the UK? Presumably if you were arrested elsewhere you could seek the assistance of either government? What if you were arrested in ROI - would you be entitled to seek assistance of the UK government?

In the arrested-in-UK scenario, can you not seek assistance from ROI government because of British rules or ROI rules?

Blanchflower

15/11/2007, 11:30 AM

In any legal business where the question arises, I always mention I have dual nationality - to say I haven't would be a lie - even though I've never had a British passport, nor intend to ever have one.

Not having a passport has no bearing on your citizenship.

The majority of Americans don't have passports but that does not mean that they aren't US citizens.

lopez

15/11/2007, 12:50 PM

So Houghton qualified through a parent and wasn't actually a granny-ruler.
According to Stephen McGarrigle's 'The Complete Who's Who of Irish International Football: 1945- 1996', Ray's father was Irish. I met his mother in Glasgow before the 1987 Scotland game and I remember her having a Scottish accent.

Other's qualifying through their grannies upto 1996 are John Aldridge, Tony Cascarino, Tommy Coyne, Tony Galvin, Alan Kernaghan, Jason McAteer, Eamonn O'Keefe, Bernie Slaven, Andy Townsend

Michael Robinson qualified through a great grandparent before pre-natal Irish citizenship was required for someone of fourth generation to qualify for Irish citizenship.

Since 1996, I can think of Clinton Morrison and Lee Carsley. You could get a team out of the above if you can find a keeper. Peter Thomas was English through and through, but played for Ireland as he was living in Waterford at the time.

Is that because of where you are arrested, i.e. the UK? Presumably if you were arrested elsewhere you could seek the assistance of either government? What if you were arrested in ROI - would you be entitled to seek assistance of the UK government?
Exactly, that is the reason. Elsewhere outside the EU you can avail of any EU embassy or Consulate, if you are ever in the sh*te. It might not be a problem for someone of British citizenship where Conulates are abundant, but if you're Irish, that peice of information could be priceless.

In the arrested-in-UK scenario, can you not seek assistance from ROI government because of British rules or ROI rules?Don't know. It used to state on the old Irish passport those of dual-nationality cannot get consular assistance in the country of the other nationality. I can only presume its because you are a citizen of that country, and no other country can intefere with what happens because you are a citizen of that country (obvious exceptions being cases like Nelson Mandela, Mordechai Vanunu, Andrei Sakharov...even the Birmingham Six, Guildford Four, Maguire Seven, who would count as dual citizens of Britain and Ireland)

Not having a passport has no bearing on your citizenship.

The majority of Americans don't have passports but that does not mean that they aren't US citizens.Correct. But if you were not born in the Ireland, then a passport is usually the best piece of proof of Irish citizenship there is, because my birth certificate does not mention the nationality or birth place of my parents.

Playing for Ireland has always required Irish citizenship. I remember Michael Robinson being pictured with his passport, as proof of this (His mother also had to get Irish citizenship for him to qualify). It was only in 1997 that FIFA demanded players of dual nationality to present a passport of the country they were playing for (i.e. The Macedonia fiasco of Trigger 'forgetting' his passport).

Blanchflower

15/11/2007, 1:07 PM

Michael Robinson qualified through a great grandparent before pre-natal Irish citizenship was required for someone of fourth generation to qualify for Irish citizenship.

Bloody hell.:eek:

Elsewhere outside the EU you can avail of any EU embassy or Consulate, if you are ever in the sh*te. It might not be a problem for someone of British citizenship where Conulates are abundant, but if you're Irish, that peice of information could be priceless.

Didn't know that. Interesting and useful, although as you say the UK has a consulate in virtually every country anyway.

Don't know. It used to state on the old Irish passport those of dual-nationality cannot get consular assistance in the country of the other nationality. I can only presume its because you are a citizen of that country, and no other country can intefere with what happens because you are a citizen of that country (obvious exceptions being cases like Nelson Mandela, Mordechai Vanunu, Andrei Sakharov...even the Birmingham Six, Guildford Four, Maguire Seven, who would count as dual citizens of Britain and Ireland)

Probably ROI rules, then, and probably the reverse is true when the situation is reversed. Makes sense, I guess.

Playing for Ireland has always required Irish citizenship.

Not so. The Ireland team played its first match in 1881, before there was such a thing as "Irish" citizenship, and right up until today its successor only requires UK citizenship. Presumably you mean the ROI team?

It was only in 1997 that FIFA demanded players of dual nationality to present a passport of the country they were playing for (i.e. The Macedonia fiasco of Trigger 'forgetting' his passport).
Tell me more.

osarusan

15/11/2007, 1:25 PM

Regarding citizenship, the child of an Irish citizen born in R. o. Ireland is automatically an Irish citizen, even though that child was born outside R. o. Ireland. However, the child of a person who acquired citizenship in the above manner is not automatically a citizen, but can become on by applying to become one.

As an example, my daughter Maria,born in Japan, is automatically an Irish citizen due to me being born in Ireland. However, her future children, if they were not born in Ireland, would have to apply for citizenship.

lopez

15/11/2007, 1:43 PM

Bloody hell.:eek:
They tightened up that rule, although a fourth generation Irish person can still obtain citizenship, except the parent needs to be an Irish citizen at the time of her birth.

Didn't know that. Interesting and useful, although as you say the UK has a consulate in virtually every country anyway.
They tend to have more than one in every country. But say you're in the the DR Congo and you're arrested for being drunk and disorderly, and a hefty fine needs paying, or you get robbed. A British embassy is in Kinshasha which could be the equivalent of a journey across Europe, but this town has a Belgian consulate. They should help.

Probably ROI rules, then, and probably the reverse is true when the situation is reversed. Makes sense, I guess.
I would have thought that.

Not so. The Ireland team played its first match in 1881, before there was such a thing as "Irish" citizenship, and right up until today its successor only requires UK citizenship. Presumably you mean the ROI team?
:rolleyes:

Tell me more.Not sure of the whole story but I believe Trigger 'forgot his passport'. He didn't. He brought along his British passport instead. He played because he managed to get his Irish passport - wish he hadn't because he thought he was at a Tae Kwon Do tournament. Cascarino also had a British passport with him. I believe he couldn't get his Irish passport (probably back in France) and I think that he didn't play because of that (this needs verification).

Regarding citizenship, the child of an Irish citizen born in R. o. Ireland is automatically an Irish citizen, even though that child was born outside R. o. Ireland. However, the child of a person who acquired citizenship in the above manner is not automatically a citizen, but can become on by applying to become one.

As an example, my daughter Maria,born in Japan, is automatically an Irish citizen due to me being born in Ireland. However, her future children, if they were not born in Ireland, would have to apply for citizenship.Or SHE can apply for them when they are born. Either way an additional document is needed (and costs the same as a passport) called a Foreign Births Certificate.

Blanchflower

15/11/2007, 2:13 PM

They tend to have more than one in every country. But say you're in the the DR Congo and you're arrested for being drunk and disorderly, and a hefty fine needs paying, or you get robbed. A British embassy is in Kinshasha which could be the equivalent of a journey across Europe, but this town has a Belgian consulate. They should help.

Useful to know.:)

Not sure of the whole story but I believe Trigger 'forgot his passport'. He didn't. He brought along his British passport instead. He played because he managed to get his Irish passport - wish he hadn't because he thought he was at a Tae Kwon Do tournament. Cascarino also had a British passport with him. I believe he couldn't get his Irish passport (probably back in France) and I think that he didn't play because of that (this needs verification).

So they both had ROI passports, they just didn't bring them?

Drumcondra 69er

16/11/2007, 11:02 AM

Not really. NI has never availed of non-Irishmen to the extent that the South has. We've never had a situation like you did when the majority of players were English and Scottish, and the team was based around the granny-rulers.

Off the top of my head, Capaldi, Patterson and Taylor from the current squad, Jimmy Nichol, Chris Nichol , Kevin Wilson, Danny Wilson, Sanchez and Dowie for a start from the past. The fact that we have a far higher population that emigrated would mean that there's always going to be more players of ROI descent available. Notwithstanding the fact that you were later adopting the Grandparent rule then most and only went as far as paremts the insinuation that you occupy some sort of moral high ground on this issue is laughable really.

Blanchflower

16/11/2007, 11:58 AM

Off the top of my head, Capaldi, Patterson and Taylor from the current squad, Jimmy Nichol, Chris Nichol , Kevin Wilson, Danny Wilson, Sanchez and Dowie for a start from the past. The fact that we have a far higher population that emigrated would mean that there's always going to be more players of ROI descent available. Notwithstanding the fact that you were later adopting the Grandparent rule then most and only went as far as paremts the insinuation that you occupy some sort of moral high ground on this issue is laughable really.

Out of them at most only Kevin and Danny Wilson were granny-rulers. Jimmy Nicholl was born in Canada to two Ulster parents who moved home when he was an infant and he was brought up in Rathcoole outside Belfast. He speaks with a broad Belfast accent. Sanchez got a grand total of 3 caps. Patterson is uncapped.

But all that is of little relevance - no-one has doubted that NI has availed of players with parental, or grandparental links (or non-UK-born UK nationals)!

The point is that NI has never availed of non-Irishmen to the extent that the South has. We've never had a situation like you did when the majority of players were English and Scottish, and the team was based around the granny-rulers. Naming a few examples as you have done doesn't alter that fact.

And - as you point out - we didn't even avail of the granny rule until well into the 1990s. You were dependent on it throughout the 80s. Don't you remember all the jokes about players being picked because they drank Guinness, etc.?

geysir

16/11/2007, 12:17 PM

We made the jokes.

The predictable and already much travelled journey to the moral high ground doesn�t cloud the fact that
a person with automatic citizenship, born in the North, a status supported at constitutional level north and south of the border, is clearly more linked to the Republic than a person born in Hong Kong with a single Irish grandparent.
A person like Darron Gibson is so clearly linked to the Republic that FIFA don�t even bother with the Annex criteria to determine the quality of the link.

Blanchflower

16/11/2007, 12:25 PM

We made the jokes.

The predictable and already much travelled journey to the moral high ground doesn�t cloud the fact that
a person with automatic citizenship, born in the North, a status supported at constitutional level north and south of the border, is clearly more linked to the Republic than a person born in Hong Kong with a single Irish grandparent.

How is it clear?

Assuming the Hong Kong guy is also a citizen, then their citizenship is common. The difference is that the Hong Kong guy has a single ROI grandparent, but the NI guy has no ROI grandparents. Therefore the Hong Kong guy's connection is greater.

Drumcondra 69er

16/11/2007, 12:25 PM

Out of them at most only Kevin and Danny Wilson were granny-rulers. Jimmy Nicholl was born in Canada to two Ulster parents who moved home when he was an infant and he was brought up in Rathcoole outside Belfast. He speaks with a broad Belfast accent. Sanchez got a grand total of 3 caps. Patterson is uncapped.

But all that is of little relevance - no-one has doubted that NI has availed of players with parental, or grandparental links (or non-UK-born UK nationals)!

The point is that NI has never availed of non-Irishmen to the extent that the South has. We've never had a situation like you did when the majority of players were English and Scottish, and the team was based around the granny-rulers. Naming a few examples as you have done doesn't alter that fact.

And - as you point out - we didn't even avail of the granny rule until well into the 1990s. You were dependent on it throughout the 80s. Don't you remember all the jokes about players being picked because they drank Guinness, etc.?

I'm well aware that the Nicholls were reared in NI, just pointing out the rules regarding descent have been utilised regulalry by NI just as they have by ROI. I've explained why there are more players available of ROI descent given the respective populations.

I remember the jokes alright, most of which originated from the English media which is hardly a hotbed of wit.

And I don't recall the team being 'based around Granny rulers' most of the English and Scots born players were second generation, not third.

Either way, so what, I know plenty of second and third generation Irishmen born and reared in the UK who consider themselves 100% Irish and have no affinity with Britain at all. Hence why we're considered a seperate ethic group in the UK census etc.

Blanchflower

16/11/2007, 12:43 PM

I'm well aware that the Nicholls were reared in NI, just pointing out the rules regarding descent have been utilised regulalry by NI just as they have by ROI.
No-one's denied that they've been utilised by NI - the point being made is that the South has utilised them far more - indeed they were hunting for Irish grannies for years before NI started to use the granny rule.

I've explained why there are more players available of ROI descent given the respective populations.
Er, there are also more players available who are actually Irish! ROI has nearly 3 times the population of NI.

I remember the jokes alright, most of which originated from the English media which is hardly a hotbed of wit.
Geysir said you guys made the jokes up. But the point is the Charlton team in the popular consciousness was a team of English and Scotsmen with tenuous links to Ireland. That wasn't far off being accurate. (Note this was never the case in the 70s or before when the ROI had wonderful teams of genuine Irishmen like Brady, Stapleton, Giles, etc.)

And I don't recall the team being 'based around Granny rulers' most of the English and Scots born players were second generation, not third.
There were a lot of granny rulers and the majority of the team was made up of players from England and Scotland.

Either way, so what, I know plenty of second and third generation Irishmen born and reared in the UK who consider themselves 100% Irish and have no affinity with Britain at all.
I find it strange that someone with 3 English grandparents and 1 Irish grandparent would consider himself "100% Irish" and have no affinity with Britain. Such a person must be very poor at arithmetic or have some kind of identity crisis.

geysir

16/11/2007, 12:59 PM

How is it clear?

already answered by

automatic citizenship, born in the North, a status supported at constitutional level north and south of the border,

FIFA don�t even bother with the Annex criteria to determine the quality of the link.

lopez

16/11/2007, 1:01 PM

Useful to know.:) So they both had ROI passports, they just didn't bring them?They had to - or have had one when they first played. FIFA only started checking at this game - hence the mad dash.

It might seem easy to accept the FAI just handed out caps to anyone with an Irish sounding name, but they didn't. Tony Galvin qualified either through his father or grandfather (I think it was the former, but the story that goes with it suggests the latter). Whoever it was, was dead. Galvin didn't have his birth certificate, and didn't even know where he was from. You don't know where your father is from? Or your grandfather for that matter? It took about a year for him to sort this out and didn't hide the fact he wanted to play for England. I started going to Ireland games at this time, and he was particularly detested by 2G supporters who thought he was a p*sstaker. But, the point is, he still qualified for Irish citizenship and he had to prove he did.

...The point is that NI has never availed of non-Irishmen to the extent that the South has. We've never had a situation like you did when the majority of players were English and Scottish, and the team was based around the granny-rulers. Naming a few examples as you have done doesn't alter that fact.

And - as you point out - we didn't even avail of the granny rule until well into the 1990s. You were dependent on it throughout the 80s. Don't you remember all the jokes about players being picked because they drank Guinness, etc.?As someone who got all defensive about perceiving someone suggesting NI had a quota system of people's religion, are you suggesting the IFA had a quota over people's birth? I would suggest it is ridiculous to allege they did. The IFA, like every other association in the world, picks the best players available to it. However, like the FAI it also picks players with no connection with it's territorial jurisdiction. Unlike the IFA, these players qualify by virtue of the citizenship of that territory. i.e.: There is no such thing as NI citizenship, which renders all this high and might 'beggar' sh*te a bit rich coming from our friends in the North.

As for jokes about 'pints of Guinness', like many stereotypical jokes by the English (I believe they were more keen on this than the Irish), it smacks of hypocrisy and double standards as the glass in the greenhouse comes crashing down around them. Let's not forget the ammount of foreigners that were in the English cricket team of the eighties, or John Barnes (who let's face it has to go back a few further generations than his granny to find an English ancestor).

How is it clear?

Assuming the Hong Kong guy is also a citizen, then their citizenship is common. The difference is that the Hong Kong guy has a single ROI grandparent, but the NI guy has no ROI grandparents. Therefore the Hong Kong guy's connection is greater.As someone with two Irish grandparents, I see Gibson as clearly more Irish than me, purely by growing up a nationalist (this isn't based on his religion - Ronnie Bunting, Ivan Cooper, Stephen Rea - before you start booting off again) in Ireland, no matter what side of the border he lived.

You see this purely on partitional grounds. Ireland was one country originally; the majority wanted it to be united (and probably independent) at its partition; the reason it is partitioned is not based on any historical border but on the imperialistic whim of the British government and a minority of the Irish population. That's why we 'nationalists' have this 'fixation' with a 32 county Ireland.

lopez

16/11/2007, 1:14 PM

Geysir said you guys made the jokes up. But the point is the Charlton team in the popular consciousness was a team of English and Scotsmen with tenuous links to Ireland.
Having two Irish parents is a 'tenuous link'?

That wasn't far off being accurate. (Note this was never the case in the 70s or before when the ROI had wonderful teams of genuine Irishmen like Brady, Stapleton, Giles, etc.)
And Steve Heighway...or Peter Thomas?

There were a lot of granny rulers
At the last count, twelve.

I find it strange that someone with 3 English grandparents and 1 Irish grandparent would consider himself "100% Irish" and have no affinity with Britain. Such a person must be very poor at arithmetic or have some kind of identity crisis.Speaking of identity crisis, are you Irish, Northern Irish, British, or like EG, NB and the holy trinity, all three?

Drumcondra 69er

16/11/2007, 1:27 PM

Er, there are also more players available who are actually Irish! ROI has nearly 3 times the population of NI.

There were a lot of granny rulers and the majority of the team was made up of players from England and Scotland.

I find it strange that someone with 3 English grandparents and 1 Irish grandparent would consider himself "100% Irish" and have no affinity with Britain. Such a person must be very poor at arithmetic or have some kind of identity crisis.

Hence my point aboput there also being more secind and third generation Irish available for the 26c then the 6c.

There weren't a lot of Granny rulers, out of the team against Italy in 94 I'm fairly certain Townsend was the only 'Granny ruler' with possibly Tommy Coyne (not sure there) who wouldn't have played had Quinn been fit. Keane, Staunton, Irwin, Bonner were all born in the 26 counties and McGrath reared here. Babb, Phelan, Houghton and Sheridan were all second generation.

Game against Italy in 1990 had a similar split. Hardly based around 'Granny rulers' as you put it.

Where did I say that the people I know have 3 English grandparents?

Blanchflower

16/11/2007, 2:03 PM

already answered by

automatic citizenship, born in the North, a status supported at constitutional level north and south of the border,

FIFA don�t even bother with the Annex criteria to determine the quality of the link.

Yeah, but if the Hong Kong guy is also a citizen then they're equal on that score. But the Hong Kong guy has 1 ROI grandparent and the NI guy has no ROI grandparents, so the Hong Kong guy wins.

Blanchflower

16/11/2007, 2:10 PM

As someone who got all defensive about perceiving someone suggesting NI had a quota system of people's religion, are you suggesting the IFA had a quota over people's birth?
What's a quota system over people's birth?:confused:

There is no such thing as NI citizenship, which renders all this high and might 'beggar' sh*te a bit rich coming from our friends in the North.

That's irrelevant - the point is that NI never had teams dependent on people from outside NI - the ROI had an entire era of such teams. That is a fact - no point in denying it.

As someone with two Irish grandparents, I see Gibson as clearly more Irish than me, purely by growing up a nationalist (this isn't based on his religion - Ronnie Bunting, Ivan Cooper, Stephen Rea - before you start booting off again) in Ireland, no matter what side of the border he lived.

So someone brought up a nationalist is more Irish than someone brought up a unionist?:mad: That's an appalling attitude.

Anyway, no-one has said Gibson isn't Irish - obviously he is - he was born and brought up in Ireland, just like me, for example. The point is he has little connection with the ROI. ROI doesn't have a monopoly on being Irish.:mad:

You see this purely on partitional grounds. Ireland was one country originally; the majority wanted it to be united (and probably independent) at its partition; the reason it is partitioned is not based on any historical border but on the imperialistic whim of the British government and a minority of the Irish population. That's why we 'nationalists' have this 'fixation' with a 32 county Ireland.
Nice simplistic assessment. But it doesn't alter the fact that there are two countries in Ireland, and Gibson is from NI, not ROI.

Blanchflower

16/11/2007, 2:14 PM

Having two Irish parents is a 'tenuous link'?

I wouldn't have thought so. Who said that?

And Steve Heighway...or Peter Thomas?

2 players. With the Charlton team often only a minority were Irish-born.

Speaking of identity crisis, are you Irish, Northern Irish, British, or like EG, NB and the holy trinity, all three?
Obviously, I'm all three. The people with the identity crises are the ones who can't deal with the complexity or nuance of multiple identity and who can only think in binary terms (e.g. the guy who's 3/4 English and 1/4 Irish, can't handle it and decides he's "100% Irish").

Blanchflower

16/11/2007, 2:16 PM

Hence my point aboput there also being more secind and third generation Irish available for the 26c then the 6c.

But they also had less need to go hunting for them when they had a bigger player pool than NI in the first place.

There weren't a lot of Granny rulers, out of the team against Italy in 94 I'm fairly certain Townsend was the only 'Granny ruler' with possibly Tommy Coyne (not sure there) who wouldn't have played had Quinn been fit. Keane, Staunton, Irwin, Bonner were all born in the 26 counties and McGrath reared here. Babb, Phelan, Houghton and Sheridan were all second generation.

Majority of the team born and brought up in Britain nonetheless.

Blanchflower

16/11/2007, 2:18 PM

Where did I say that the people I know have 3 English grandparents?
We were talking about granny rulers, i.e. players whose only connection is a granny.

Drumcondra 69er

16/11/2007, 2:42 PM

But they also had less need to go hunting for them when they had a bigger player pool than NI in the first place.

Majority of the team born and brought up in Britain nonetheless.

Not 'Granny rulers' though. Your point was the team was 'based around Granny Rulers'.

Anyone with even a simplistic understanding of Ireland's history knows how strong the link tends to be with second generation Irish kids brought up in Britain in an Irish community, going to Irish centres, having holidays back at home. Everyone in my generation of fans had cousins born in England or borthers or sisters emigrating over there and raising a family. Whatever qualms anyone had or jibes they made about 3rd generation players declaring I never conisdered any difference between the first and second generation Irish players. Given the history of economic emigrartion we had to endure in thw past and were enduring again in the 80's and into the early 90's I thought it was fitting that we had a team where the diaspora were well represented at that stage.

Stuttgart88

16/11/2007, 3:14 PM

the early 90's I thought it was fitting that we had a team where the diaspora were well represented at that stage.Do you remember Mary Robinson's address to the team about the importance of the diaspora? I'll never forget the look on Terry Phelan's face. The "dia-what?"

Blanchflower

16/11/2007, 3:16 PM

Not 'Granny rulers' though. Your point was the team was 'based around Granny Rulers'.

I think it's fair to say that there were several granny-rulers as key players. The majority, though, I have only ever said were born-and-reared in Britain albeit with an Irish parents and not necessarily just a granny.

Anyone with even a simplistic understanding of Ireland's history knows how strong the link tends to be with second generation Irish kids brought up in Britain in an Irish community, going to Irish centres, having holidays back at home.
How many of the 94 team went to "Irish centres" and had regular holidays back home?

Whatever qualms anyone had or jibes they made about 3rd generation players declaring I never conisdered any difference between the first and second generation Irish players.
Most people did, though. Hence all the jokes about the Charlton team. It's not the same now since the granny-hunting quietened down.

ifk101

16/11/2007, 3:45 PM

lopez

16/11/2007, 3:55 PM

What's a quota system over people's birth?:confused:
Do you think that the IFA would turn around to the manager and say we only want one naturalised Brit, two 2G, one granny, and the rest must be from our wee country no matter how sh*te you think they are?

So someone brought up a nationalist is more Irish than someone brought up a unionist? That's an appalling attitude.
More mock disgust? What would you prefer? 'You're Irish as you were born in Ireland and have no right to go round claiming you are a citizen of another country, you traitor'?

Anyway, no-one has said Gibson isn't Irish - obviously he is - he was born and brought up in Ireland, just like me, for example. The point is he has little connection with the ROI. ROI doesn't have a monopoly on being Irish.
It does in the context of nationality and citizenship.

Nice simplistic assessment. But it doesn't alter the fact that there are two countries in Ireland, and Gibson is from NI, not ROI.This is a forum, so I won't bore you with a thesis. However I've got some work to catch up on the simplisms you've posted e.g. The Irish team was 'in the popular consciousness was a team of English and Scotsmen with tenuous links to Ireland.'

I wouldn't have thought so. Who said that?
You did when you said 'in the popular consciousness (the Cahrlton team) was a team of English and Scotsmen with tenuous links to Ireland.'

2 players. With the Charlton team often only a minority were Irish-born.
Heighway's links were more tenuous than most of the players you mention, but he qualifies as a genuine Irishman in your view. So too Jonathan Aitken if he could actually play football rather than commit perjury.

Obviously, I'm all three. The people with the identity crises are the ones who can't deal with the complexity or nuance of multiple identity and who can only think in binary terms (e.g. the guy who's 3/4 English and 1/4 Irish, can't handle it and decides he's "100% Irish").Obviously? Why are you 'obviously' all three?

I've yet to meet the guy who is 3/4 English (presumably heritage) who thought he was '100% Irish'. Michael Robinson maybe?

Majority of the team born and brought up in Britain nonetheless.So?

...Most people did, though. Hence all the jokes about the Charlton team. It's not the same now since the granny-hunting quietened down.Most people? The English media, England managers when they lost and couldn't blame a cr*p pitch or their captain's hepatitis, Billy Bingham, and er some Northern Ireland fans. Hypocrites the lot of them, and you all know it.

Drumcondra 69er

16/11/2007, 3:59 PM

I think it's fair to say that there were several granny-rulers as key players. The majority, though, I have only ever said were born-and-reared in Britain albeit with an Irish parents and not necessarily just a granny.

How many of the 94 team went to "Irish centres" and had regular holidays back home?

Most people did, though. Hence all the jokes about the Charlton team. It's not the same now since the granny-hunting quietened down.

Several key players? Namely? Outside Townsend and Aldridge?

Out of the seond generation players named Babb and Phelan were reared by single Irish mothers, Sheridans family were big into the Irish community in Manchester. SAme with Alan Kelly. Dunno about Coyne but playing for Celtic in Glasgow I'd imagine he was familiar with the community, ditto for Houghton growing up there and his family certainly holidayed in Donegal.

The jokes about the team were because the team was sucessful at a time when England were underachieving bar Italia 90. There are still a couple of 3rd generation players involved now such as McGeady and Alex Bruce (think you may have had a claim on him and all, you'd have been welcome to him!) in the seniors this weekend, O'Toole in the 21's and the likes of Folan who had a call up for the B's and previously for the seniors and had to pull out. Nothing's changed as regards the small number of 'Granny rulers' except the fact that we're not winning games now hence the jokes have stopped.

geysir

16/11/2007, 4:20 PM

Yeah, but if the Hong Kong guy is also a citizen then they're equal on that score. But the Hong Kong guy has 1 ROI grandparent and the NI guy has no ROI grandparents, so the Hong Kong guy wins.
Win what? your subjective interpretation that a china man with one irish grandaddy means you are more connected to the Republic than Darron Gibson born in Derry.
:D:D
Your belief about a certain scale of connection has no
relevance to the objective criteria, the scale of legal criteria that is used to determine eligibility for Irish citizenship and
FiFA�s consistent interpretation and evaluation of the same criteria being over and above that of a grandparent connection.

Send a submission to FIFA about it I�m sure they would be in a quandary as to decide if it is more or less ridiculous/self defeating than the argument used by Howard Wells that FIFA should apply their own rules.

Blanchflower

16/11/2007, 5:06 PM

I think you have to ask yourself is the reason why NI hasn't availed of the granny rule as much as Ireland has done in the past more linked to not been able to get the players rather than some sort of "moral standing".

You're not making sense: NI and Ireland are the same. Do you mean as much as the Republic? If so, the answer is "no", that is not the reason. The IFA held out on the granny rule for many years on grounds of principle.

Blanchflower

16/11/2007, 5:16 PM

Do you think that the IFA would turn around to the manager and say we only want one naturalised Brit, two 2G, one granny, and the rest must be from our wee country no matter how sh*te you think they are?

No. Why are you asking?

More mock disgust?
Not mock disgust: genuine anger at your suggestion that someone is "more" Irish because of his political views.:mad:

What would you prefer? 'You're Irish as you were born in Ireland and have no right to go round claiming you are a citizen of another country, you traitor'?
Don't know what you're getting at - there's a choice between the above and saying a nationalist is more Irish than a non-nationalist? That doesn't follow at all.

It does in the context of nationality and citizenship.
It doesn't: an ROI citizen is no "more" Irish than a UK citizen from NI.:mad:

You did when you said 'in the popular consciousness (the Cahrlton team) was a team of English and Scotsmen with tenuous links to Ireland.'

That was the case in the popular consciousness.

Heighway's links were more tenuous than most of the players you mention, but he qualifies as a genuine Irishman in your view.

I made no comment on Heighway's links - I don't know what his links were. I do know, though, that the ROI team in the 70s could not be characterised in the same way as the Charlton team in terms of English and Scots players.

Obviously? Why are you 'obviously' all three?

Because I'm from NI. Therefore Northern Irish. NI is in Ireland. Therefore Irish. NI is in the UK. Therefore British. How is that not obvious?

I've yet to meet the guy who is 3/4 English (presumably heritage) who thought he was '100% Irish'. Michael Robinson maybe?

If you ever go to America you'll probably meet people who are 3/4 Portuguese and 1/4 Irish, have never been to Ireland, yet who proudly tell you that they are Irish. I have!:eek:

So?

So the fact that not all these born and reared in Britain weren't granny rulers doesn't mean that the majority of the team wasn't born and reared in Britain.

Most people?
Yes, in my experience.