Eligibility proposal

[Blanchflower]

Why would religion have anything to do with nationality?
Ask the Israelis.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Why would religion have anything to do with nationality?

It doesn't. That's the point. However, when the flag was originally designed in the 1840's relegion was very much part of one's identity on this island. The flag was to symbolise both of the main identities and peace between them within a soveriegn independent Ireland. It never really caught on pre 1916 as a symbol in any case.

[Blanchflower]

If you had looked at my first mail (which you did to some degree) you have have been able to reply.

The point was to question Gavin Zac about his understanding of nationality/identity.

[GavinZac]

Ask the Israelis.I recommend you read "How Israel lost" for a good explanation of how Israel is a secular state for people of "Hebrew" and Yiddish ethnicity, rather than of Jewish faith.

[Hibernian]

The point was to question Gavin Zac about his understanding of nationality/identity.

No the question was for you.

You cant answer fair enough.

Seems to me you still live in the 1920's and when you bring in stupid comments like the Middle East it just goes to show how sad you are.

[Blanchflower]

I recommend you read "How Israel lost" for a good explanation of how Israel is a secular state for people of "Hebrew" and Yiddish ethnicity, rather than of Jewish faith.
It's all right, I believe you. It wasn't a serious comment in any case.

[Blanchflower]

No the question was for you.

And I have answered it.


You cant answer fair enough.

I did.


Seems to me you still live in the 1920's
Why does it seem like that to you?


and when you bring in stupid comments like the Middle East it just goes to show how sad you are.
Why do you think that?

[Hibernian]

And I have answered it.


I did.


Why does it seem like that to you?


Why do you think that?

I could not be bothered this is joke right??

[Lionel Ritchie]

Not entirely true, it represnts the Catrholic and Protestant traditions on the island with the white signifying a truce between them. It was included to try and reconcile Irish Protestants with the independence movement. Independence in in this instance meaning indpedendent from Britain.

What has the colour Green got to do with Catholicism?.

If the flag was designed with the guidelines you're suggesting there'd be Marian Blue or Papal Yellow in it.

The green is supposed to represent Irish Nationalism ...with no reference whatsoever to the religious affiliation, if any, of the Nationalist people.

[Blanchflower]

I could not be bothered this is joke right??

You've been bothered up until now.

No, it's not a joke.

[Hibernian]

You've been bothered up until now.

No, it's not a joke.

lol if you answer the first question then......

a well there's always one as they say.

[GavinZac]

lol if you answer the first question then......
would you please, please move on. He was answering my rhetorical question with rhetorical questions of his own.
a well there's always one as they say.too bloody true.

[Drumcondra 69er]

What has the colour Green got to do with Catholicism?.

If the flag was designed with the guidelines you're suggesting there'd be Marian Blue or Papal Yellow in it.

The green is supposed to represent Irish Nationalism ...with no reference whatsoever to the religious affiliation, if any, of the Nationalist people.

And what does the orange represent? Or the white between the orange and the green? I think you need to check your history. For right or wrong that was thinking behind it at the time, I'm obviously being simplistic about it here but they're the basic facts.

The green pale in the flag symbolises the older majority Gaelic tradition of Ireland, made up mainly of Roman Catholics. Green had always been associated with Ireland as a nation, and with the revolutionary groups within it. A flag of Green, Blue and Orange was suggested around the same time to symbolise Catholics, Presbetyrians and Protestants of the established church, religion and the indentity it gave people were serious considerations in those days.

Nationalism in itself was multi denominational but relegion played a part in the designing of it's symbols for precisely those reasons.

[Hibernian]

would you please, please move on. He was answering my rhetorical question with rhetorical questions of his own.too bloody true.

You have a lot to worry about in life i see!!!

[GavinZac]

And what does the orange represent? Or the white between the orange and the green? I think you need to check your history. For right or wrong that was thinking behind it at the time, I'm obviously being simplistic about it here but they're the basic facts.The orange represents the tradition of Wilhem of Orange: British Unionism in Ireland.

[Not Brazil]

The green pale in the flag symbolises the older majority Gaelic tradition of Ireland, made up mainly of Roman Catholics. Green had always been associated with Ireland as a nation, and with the revolutionary groups within it.

Shhhh.

FFS Northern Ireland fans will be deserting our team in their droves.:D

[Not Brazil]

The orange represents the tradition of Wilhem of Orange: British Unionism in Ireland.

Was the Battle Of The Boyne not a squabble between two slightly different factions of exactly the same religion?:confused:

And..was William of Orange Dutch?:confused:

[GavinZac]

Was the Battle Of The Boyne not a squabble between two slightly different factions of exactly the same religion?:confused: No, it was a squabble between two "thrones" of England. One throne happened to be protestant, the other catholic.


And..was William of Orange Dutch?:confused:Of course he was, Orange is in the Netherlands. Mind you, the current English royal family are german and greek.

[Not Brazil]

No, it was a squabble between two "thrones" of England. One throne happened to be protestant, the other catholic.


What were these "thrones" getting their respective knickers in a twist about?:confused:

[Drumcondra 69er]

The orange represents the tradition of Wilhem of Orange: British Unionism in Ireland.

It was a rhetorical question. ;)

[co. down green]

I propose that this thread be locked.

The Eligibility issue is overdone and dusted

Agreed, this is the sort of stuff the 'trolls' love.

[geysir]

We at 1690 now
you boys move fast, whats next King Arthur?
Dodge's missus must have him cleaning the house from top to bottom.
anthems flags king billy :eek:

[GavinZac]

What were these "thrones" getting their respective knickers in a twist about?:confused:

Power, clearly. Unless you truly believe each man was on a mission from God to restore faith to the hallowed land of the Angles.

[GavinZac]

We at 1690 now
you boys move fast, whats next King Arthur?
I'd imagine someone will be insinuating that the Roman part of Roman Catholic is represented by the red in the Union Jack.

[Hibernian]

Who needs to go to school when you get your very own Irish and Brtish history in Foot.ie

[Not Brazil]

Power, clearly. Unless you truly believe each man was on a mission from God to restore faith to the hallowed land of the Angles.

Cheers Gav.;)

[Drumcondra 69er]

I'd imagine someone will be insinuating that the Roman part of Roman Catholic is represented by the red in the Union Jack.

What did the Roman Catholics ever do for us? Eh? :)

[Hibernian]

what do the colours of the Union Jack represent anyway???

anyone???? have to know this before xmas!!!!!!

[RogerMilla]

so anyone born in northern ireland can now declare for the republic of ireland , correct?
seems very strange to me as we do not give automatic citizenship to those born in the republic....

[GavinZac]

what do the colours of the Union Jack represent anyway???

anyone???? have to know this before xmas!!!!!!

The red of the St. Patrick's Cross (the saltire, or "X") represents Ireland and is actually the arms of the FitzGerald family.
The blue of the inverse saltire of the St. Andrews Cross represents Scotland. The origin of the blue isn't properly known, but Picts (one of few actual Briton tribes in history) painted themselves blue with woad before battle and i'd imagine they continued this tradition on when things became more civilised than fighting in nothing more than battle paint.
The red cross of the St. George's Cross represents England and is owed, ironically, to the Pope and to France. The Pope awarded each crusading nation a distinguishing shield; he gave France a red cross on a white flag, and england the reverse, a red flag with a white cross. However, the English preferred France's white purity and used that same flag anyway; and by the time the idea of flags and colours really took hold of nationalism, France had swapped to the tricolour anyway, nulling any possible clash of the old rivals over who got to keep the St. George's cross.

Interesting is Wales' omission.

[Hibernian]

The red of the St. Patrick's Cross (the saltire, or "X") represents Ireland and is actually the arms of the FitzGerald family.
The blue of the inverse saltire of the St. Andrews Cross represents Scotland. The origin of the blue isn't properly known, but Picts (one of few actual Briton tribes in history) painted themselves blue with woad before battle and i'd imagine they continued this tradition on when things became more civilised than fighting in nothing more than battle paint.
The red cross of the St. George's Cross represents England and is owed, ironically, to the Pope and to France. The Pope awarded each crusading nation a distinguishing shield; he gave France a red cross on a white flag, and england the reverse, a red flag with a white cross. However, the English preferred France's white purity and used that same flag anyway; and by the time the idea of flags and colours really took hold of nationalism, France had swapped to the tricolour anyway, nulling any possible clash of the old rivals over who got to keep the St. George's cross.

Interesting is Wales' omission.


Cool cheers

[Drumcondra 69er]

The red of the St. Patrick's Cross (the saltire, or "X") represents Ireland and is actually the arms of the FitzGerald family.
The blue of the inverse saltire of the St. Andrews Cross represents Scotland. The origin of the blue isn't properly known, but Picts (one of few actual Briton tribes in history) painted themselves blue with woad before battle and i'd imagine they continued this tradition on when things became more civilised than fighting in nothing more than battle paint.
The red cross of the St. George's Cross represents England and is owed, ironically, to the Pope and to France. The Pope awarded each crusading nation a distinguishing shield; he gave France a red cross on a white flag, and england the reverse, a red flag with a white cross. However, the English preferred France's white purity and used that same flag anyway; and by the time the idea of flags and colours really took hold of nationalism, France had swapped to the tricolour anyway, nulling any possible clash of the old rivals over who got to keep the St. George's cross.

Interesting is Wales' omission.

Wlaes' omission is interesting alright, is this down to the fact that Wales was considered a pricipilaity prior to their act of Union so it was a different situation to the unions with Scotland and Ireland?

Funilly enough the St Patrick's Cross was never an official flag prior to it's addition to the union flag but had been used unofficially for years.

Regardless of what it stands for, is it just me or is the Union Jack a dreadful flag aesthetically? Too much going on in it for me, hurts the eyes! ;)

[lopez]

This is all getting out of hand. :confused: I'm off to ChavSDA for my christmas dinner - mad queues at Tescos. If this thread isn't locked by tomorrow. If it does, Merry Xmas to all of you (Seasons Greetings to the atheists), including Blanchflower, NB, EG, Absinthe and GR.

[GavinZac]

Wlaes' omission is interesting alright, is this down to the fact that Wales was considered a pricipilaity prior to their act of Union so it was a different situation to the unions with Scotland and Ireland?There wasn't really any "union" with wales, more an annexation. There wasn't any formal ceremonial adherence of the 2 areas of England and Wales; wales were simply a defeated party, the same as Cornwall.

The union with scotland took place peacefully as a combination of the thrones under James, and the Union flag was representative of that.

[GavinZac]

This is all getting out of hand. :confused: I'm off to ChavSDA for my christmas dinner - mad queues at Tescos. If this thread isn't locked by tomorrow. If it does, Merry Xmas to all of you (Seasons Greetings to the atheists), including Blanchflower, NB, EG, Absinthe and GR.

I think the thread may be slightly off topic, alright. No worries, the topic has been flogged to death.

[Not Brazil]

If this thread isn't locked by tomorrow. If it does, Merry Xmas to all of you (Seasons Greetings to the atheists), including Blanchflower, NB, EG, Absinthe and GR.

Seasons Greetings to your goodself Lopez.

[Drumcondra 69er]

This is all getting out of hand. :confused: I'm off to ChavSDA for my christmas dinner - mad queues at Tescos. If this thread isn't locked by tomorrow. If it does, Merry Xmas to all of you (Seasons Greetings to the atheists), including Blanchflower, NB, EG, Absinthe and GR.

Seconded, Happy Christmas to all including our friends in the North!

[Blanchflower]

Interesting is Wales' omission.

Officially:rolleyes: Wales is represented by the St George's Cross, since the Kingdom of England included Wales, whereas Scotland and Ireland were separate kingdoms.

[Blanchflower]

Happy Christmas, everyone.

[Cymro]

The Union Flag couldn't suck more even if it was on the suckiest day of its life and had an electified sucking machine.

We aren't on it because it all harks back to the 1532 Act of Union which meant we were legally represented by the St. George cross. And it remains that way to this day despite the fact that Wales now has significant autonomy thanks to devolution to the national Assembly.

[GavinZac]

had an electified sucking machine.I have one of those :)

[kingdomkerry]

bah humbug!

[kingdomkerry]

Rather obviously, either ...




1. Neutral flag and anthem at all matches.



2. Two flags and two anthems at all matches.



1. I would'nt be in favour.



2. This would be fine.



However there is a problem, In the 26 counties the Irish tricolour and Aramhan na Bhfiann are representative of the entire population.



This is not the case in the North , the "NI flag" is not representative of the entire population (50% only). The nationalist community cannot and will not identify with the crown.



Similarly the same argument can be made for GSTQ.



So when the official flag and anthem in the north are representative of both communities I for one will have no problem with both being flown and sung at Ireland rugby games.



If northern protestants want a level playing field (although they only represent 20% of the people) they must take the first step.

[GavinZac]

However there is a problem, In the 26 counties the Irish tricolour and Aramhan na Bhfiann are representative of the entire population.they are?

[Not Brazil]

However there is a problem, In the 26 counties the Irish tricolour and Aramhan na Bhfiann are representative of the entire population.


There is a problem - The Ireland rugby team does not solely represent the "26 Counties".

[kingdomkerry]

they are?

OK there are many thousands of foreign nationals living in Ireland but these people are hardly going to argue with irish anthems and flags.

[kingdomkerry]

There is a problem - The Ireland rugby team does not solely represent the "26 Counties".

I never said it did?

[osarusan]

[INDENT]

In the 26 counties the Irish tricolour and Aramhan na Bhfiann are representative of the entire population.

This is not the case in the North , the "NI flag" does not representative of the entire population (50% only). The nationalist community cannot and will not identify with the crown.


Won't the nationalist community already be represented by the tricolour and Amhrann na Bhfiann?

[kingdomkerry]

They will, but GSTQ and the union jack are not acceptable to 46% of the people in the 6 counties. How can it be acceptable to people in the 26 counties?

A Northern Ireland flag and anthem and flag acceptable to all is what is needed, not British symbolism being forced down the throat of the people of Ireland after an 800 year conflict with so so much opression inflicted on the Irish people under this symbolism.

[GavinZac]

They will, but GSTQ and the union jack are not acceptable to 46% of the people in the 6 counties. How can it be acceptable to people in the 26 counties?

A Northern Ireland flag and anthem and flag acceptable to all is what is needed, not British symbolism being forced down the throat of the people of Ireland after an 800 year conflict with so so much opression inflicted on the Irish people under this symbolism.
Oh give it a rest. Who gives a damn what happened for 800 years. Christ you'd swear the british had us out in the fields for them today. Why should a song about some old lady be any more offensive than our song about killing Saxons?