Eligibility proposal

[Not Brazil]

Which is British.

Indeed.

I am an Irishman, born and bred, with British Citizenship.

I was born and bred in the part of the island of Ireland (Northern Ireland) which is part of the United Kingdom.

The Irish rugby team, represents the Irish Rugby Football Union.

The IRFU administers rugby across two jurisdictions.

[lopez]

If that is the attitude of Southerners to the all-Ireland rugby teams, one wonders why they are surprised at people from NI who don't want an all-Ireland football team.The attitude of most 'southerners' (sic.) IMO was this:

It's the team of the people of Ireland. The majority want to hear the SS at Irish games. The majority of the players sing it. I'd say that the majority would accept a compromise that doesn't diminish the teams Irishness. I'd be happy with both flags (Irish and NI) and two anthems providing neither are the national anthem of England/Britain.

But hey why spoil a post with the facts. Your quote of me is basically this: If you don't like the current situation of rugby - which has bent over backwards to accomodate unionist feelings - then nothing is going to appease, bar of course the Union Jack (or the allegedly Irish part of that flag) and GSTQ - then go and support someone else or set up your own unionist and British team from the 6C and enter the 6N (7N it would become). If you find that offensive, tough!


I thought the Soldier's Song was used for all games, home and away, until fairly recently?No it wasn't. In fact GSTQ was used upto the seventies by the Welsh RU as our anthem and it even mentioned 'respect for our visitors' in the programme. (GSpain thinks it was to do with some royals turning up, but I'm waiting to see the proof that they actually did. Di only turned up for romps with Bum Chin if the rumours are true (Well they were strong eough to split up Bum Chin's marriage to that bird on VH1). Happy days for you I bet. :rolleyes:

But many Irishmen and women are British.
Another example of relegatiing Irishness to a regionality. :D The answer is to have two anthems like South Africa - The SS and one representing NI - instead of the current sh*t. If you want GSTQ for rugby then play the SS along with it NI games aswell.

And many Irishmen and women are not Southern Irish, so why should they accept the Soldier's Song?

You don't seem to have a very even-handed approach!Pretty stupid statement here. Many non 'southerners' accept the SS because they believe it the anthem of the Irish nation and that they have Irish as a nationality not as a regionality to another country.

Absolutely not.

Miniority interests should be respected but majority interests should be adhered to. If matches are to played in the country of Ireland, out of respect to its people and the state, the national anthem should be played every time an international sporting event takes place within its territories.Minority interests only work one way with these people. Ask them to recognise any of the symbols of Irish nationalism and they bring up the foreign country argument. Fine! That's why I'm so glad FIFA have decided to allow anyone eleigible for Irish citizenship to play for Ireland. There's certainly no shortage of support from the O6C when I go and watch Ireland play.

[lopez]

...I was born and bred in the part of the island of Ireland (Northern Ireland) which is part of the United Kingdom...
I just love how you coined that. Not 'born in a part of the United Kingdom which is part of Ireland.' Thanks for clearing up the hierarchy of your Irishness. :D

[ifk101]

Indeed.

I am an Irishman, born and bred, with British Citizenship.

I was born and bred in the part of the island of Ireland (Northern Ireland) which is part of the United Kingdom.

The Irish rugby team, represents the Irish Rugby Football Union.

The IRFU administers rugby across two jurisdictions.

Good for you. I'm glad we cleared that up.

The IRFU has accommodated minority interests through the adoption of a neutral flag and the adoption of a neutral rugby anthem. But as I've already stated, whilst minority interests should be respected, majority interests should be adhered to.

[Absinthe]

Originally Posted by Not Brazil http://foot.ie/inc/img/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?p=842930#post842930)
As a proud Irishman, I can assure you that the Soldiers Song and Tricolor will never represent my nationality.


Which is British.


Maybe you should sing GSTQ as a mark of respect to Darron Gibson the next time he lines up for you then?

[Not Brazil]

I just love how you coined that. Not 'born in a part of the United Kingdom which is part of Ireland.' Thanks for clearing up the hierarchy of your Irishness. :D

:confused:

Whatever.

[Not Brazil]

But as I've already stated, whilst minority interests should be respected, majority interests should be adhered to.

A bit of a boot in the balls that for "parity of esteem" and an "Ireland of equals".

Majority rule, with tokenism.

Way to go.:D

[ifk101]

A bit of a boot in the balls that for "parity of esteem" and an "Ireland of equals".

Majority rule, with tokenism.

Way to go.:D

And what's your solution?

[Absinthe]

Good for you. I'm glad we cleared that up.

The IRFU has accommodated minority interests through the adoption of a neutral flag and the adoption of a neutral rugby anthem. But as I've already stated, whilst minority interests should be respected, majority interests should be adhered to.

Have they? I dont believe they have played in Dublin since the gamve in Belfast against Italy. I will be very surprised if only 'Ireland Call' is sang. I will also be pleasantly surprised if the Tricolour is not on 'official' display. i.e. The crowd can wave whatever they like, it genuinely doesnt bother me, but the team should be represented by the IRB flag.

[lopez]

Great arguement for the retention of GSTQ at Northern Ireland matches.

Basically, the "Ireland" rugby team, is a ROI rugby team, with a few folk of "minority interest" invited to play.

As a proud Irishman, I can assure you that the Soldiers Song and Tricolor will never represent my nationality.You carry on keeping it. I frankly couldn't give a sh*t. I'd say the majority of NI fans want to keep it - where you going to put 'No Surrender' in Danny Boy? - Nationalists have been able to watch, and have watched a team standing for an Irish anthem for years. Now FIFA have confirmed they can be on that team.


Incidentally, what about flags? What flags were/are flown to represent the Irish rugby team at away matches?I haven't been to many rugby games since the mid eighties (tickets hard to get hold of) when the team was heavily Ulster based. A game at Murrayfield in 1985 had the tan flag you call 'the St Patrick's Cross.' You may as well have put up the Butchers' Apron as far as I'm concerned. FFS: What's wrong with the Tricolour and the NI flag?

Maybe you should sing GSTQ as a mark of respect to Darron Gibson the next time he lines up for you then?Taking the name of a drink you have first thing in the morning as your username. Love it! :D

[lopez]

...the team should be represented by the IRB flag.Don't you mean IRFU?

[ifk101]

Have they? I dont believe they have played in Dublin since the gamve in Belfast against Italy. I will be very surprised if only 'Ireland Call' is sang. I will also be pleasantly surprised if the Tricolour is not on 'official' display. i.e. The crowd can wave whatever they like, it genuinely doesnt bother me, but the team should be represented by the IRB flag.

As the team represents Ireland, and as the team is playing matches within the terriorities of Ireland, the Irish national anthem should be played and the national flag of Ireland should be displayed.

[Blanchflower]

No my position is that minority interests should be respected but majority interests adhered to.

That doesn't answer my questions.

If Lansdowne Road/Croke Park hosted, say, a World Cup semi-final between South Africa and France - are you saying that the Soldier's Song should be played?

By your logic, God Save the Queen should have been played at the Italy match. Is that your position?

[Not Brazil]

And what's your solution?

In terms of the IRFU representative team?

I've already given it.

You support "majority rule", with tokenism.

You are against "parity of esteem".

[lopez]

In terms of the IRFU representative team?

I've already given it.

You support "majority rule", with tokenism.

You are against "parity of esteem".That's exactly what we have from the IFA.

[Not Brazil]

That's exactly what we have from the IFA.

I was replying to ifk.

He is obviously a supporter of the IFA stance.

Watch the blood pressure.:D

[GavinZac]

Indeed.

I am an Irishman, born and bred, with British Citizenship.

I was born and bred in the part of the island of Ireland (Northern Ireland) which is part of the United Kingdom.

The Irish rugby team, represents the Irish Rugby Football Union.

The IRFU administers rugby across two jurisdictions.

If you're describing yourself as Irish because you were born on the island of Ireland, wouldn't that exclude you from being British, as you weren't born on the island of Britain? Furthermore, wouldn't that then make you, by citizenship, simply a citizen of the UKGBI?

[ifk101]

In terms of the IRFU representative team?

I've already given it.

You support "majority rule", with tokenism.

You are against "parity of esteem".

"Parity of esteem" isn't applicable here as you have pointed out that you are Irish so we share the same identity and we shouldn't have any conflicts of interests. As the vast majority of people on the island of Ireland identify with the Irish National Flag and the Irish National anthem, this identification should be respected and not ignored.

[Blanchflower]

The attitude of most 'southerners' (sic.) IMO was this:

It's the team of the people of Ireland. The majority want to hear the SS at Irish games. The majority of the players sing it. I'd say that the majority would accept a compromise that doesn't diminish the teams Irishness. I'd be happy with both flags (Irish and NI) and two anthems providing neither are the national anthem of England/Britain.

But hey why spoil a post with the facts.


Your quote of me is basically this: If you don't like the current situation of rugby - which has bent over backwards to accomodate unionist feelings - then nothing is going to appease, bar of course the Union Jack (or the allegedly Irish part of that flag) and GSTQ - then go and support someone else or set up your own unionist and British team from the 6C and enter the 6N (7N it would become). If you find that offensive, tough!

You're contradicting yourself. Your first post says you want a compromise, the second post says that unionists can f*ck off if they don't like the current set-up.:mad:

It's ludicrous to say that the IRFU has "bent over backwards" to accommodate unionist feelings. In the first instance, you view the "accommodation of unionist feelings" as something which is the result of the good-hearted generosity of the IRFU and for which unionists should be thankful. This indicates that you see the Ireland rugby team - not as a genuine all-Ireland team - but as essentially an ROI/nationalist institution with a bit of Northern/unionist involvement who need to be appeased out of politeness.

Second, it is hardly "bending over backwards" to rip up an ostensibly even-handed policy in respect of flags and anthems in order to introduce a new one-sided policy whereby Southern flags and anthems are used in the South, but matches in the North are treated as away matches.

Third, it is hardly "bending over backwards" to do nothing about introducing a neutral anthem for 50-odd years.



No it wasn't.

Er, I've already stood corrected on that.



In fact GSTQ was used upto the seventies by the Welsh RU as our anthem and it even mentioned 'respect for our visitors' in the programme.
Bizarre, if true.


Another example of relegatiing Irishness to a regionality.
Not in the least. Those Irishmen and women who are British are no less Irish because of it. Don't attribute your narrow mindset to others.


The answer is to have two anthems like South Africa - The SS and one representing NI - instead of the current sh*t.
That would mean changing the status quo, about which you said earlier people should feck off if they didn't like it.

Two anthems is fine by me, although I would have thought a single, neutral anthem would be preferable.


If you want GSTQ for rugby then play the SS along with it NI games aswell.
That doesn't make sense. NI is not an all-Ireland team.


Pretty stupid statement here. Many non 'southerners' accept the SS because they believe it the anthem of the Irish nation and that they have Irish as a nationality not as a regionality to another country.
Not stupid in the least. If Southerners object to the Northern anthem because they are not British, it is no more or no less stupid for Northerners to object to the Southern anthem because they are not Southern Irish. What some people "believe" about the Southern anthem is irrelevant.


Minority interests only work one way with these people. Ask them to recognise any of the symbols of Irish nationalism and they bring up the foreign country argument. Fine! That's why I'm so glad FIFA have decided to allow anyone eleigible for Irish citizenship to play for Ireland. There's certainly no shortage of support from the O6C when I go and watch Ireland play.
I don't see what you're saying here. What have the "symbols of Irish nationalism" got to do with anything and who is being asked to, or refusing to, recognise them?

And your continual references to "Ireland" won't alter the fact that the team you refer to is only a 26-county team.

[Not Brazil]

If you're describing yourself as Irish because you were born on the island of Ireland, wouldn't that exclude you from being British, as you weren't born on the island of Britain? Furthermore, wouldn't that then make you, by citizenship, simply a citizen of the UKGBI?

I am a British Citizen.

I am Irish by birthright.

[Blanchflower]

And what's your solution?

Rather obviously, either ...

1. Neutral flag and anthem at all matches.

2. Two flags and two anthems at all matches.

[Blanchflower]

I haven't been to many rugby games since the mid eighties (tickets hard to get hold of) when the team was heavily Ulster based. A game at Murrayfield in 1985 had the tan flag you call 'the St Patrick's Cross.' You may as well have put up the Butchers' Apron as far as I'm concerned. FFS:
A "tan flag"? The "Butchers' Apron"? You seem to have a bit of an anger issue. Why do you object to the St Patrick's Cross?


What's wrong with the Tricolour and the NI flag?

I'd love to know. Prejudice and intolerance on the part of the IRFU?

[Blanchflower]

As the team represents Ireland, and as the team is playing matches within the terriorities of Ireland, the Irish national anthem should be played and the national flag of Ireland should be displayed.
And therefore, by that logic, the NI anthem and flag should be displayed at Ravenhill.

[Blanchflower]

If you're describing yourself as Irish because you were born on the island of Ireland, wouldn't that exclude you from being British, as you weren't born on the island of Britain? Furthermore, wouldn't that then make you, by citizenship, simply a citizen of the UKGBI?

No.

..

[ifk101]

I was replying to ifk.

He is obviously a supporter of the IFA stance.

Watch the blood pressure.:D

Contrary to what you may think, I am sympathic to the IFA position regarding the whole eligibility issue. However FIFA has ruled and I am acceptant of FIFA's decision.

[Blanchflower]

"Parity of esteem" isn't applicable here as you have pointed out that you are Irish so we share the same identity and we shouldn't have any conflicts of interests. As the vast majority of people on the island of Ireland identify with the Irish National Flag and the Irish National anthem, this identification should be respected and not ignored.

So fly both flags and play both anthems. That way everyone is respected and no-one is ignored.

[Not Brazil]

[QUOTE=ifk101;843009 However FIFA has ruled and I am acceptant of FIFA's decision.[/QUOTE]

As am I.

[GavinZac]

No.

..


I am a British Citizen.

I am Irish by birthright.

Very descriptive.

Anyone want to tell me why you're allowed to call yourself British if you're not from Britain? (Dont worry, I'm not attempting to drive ye into the sea, this is rhetoric.)

[Not Brazil]

Anyone want to tell me why you're allowed to call yourself British if you're not from Britain? (Dont worry, I'm not attempting to drive ye into the sea, this is rhetoric.)

Because British Citizenship is extended to those who were not born and bred on the mainland of Britain.

Similarly, Irish "nationality" is extended to those not born on the island of Ireland - Lopez will fill you in on that.

It's not rocket science.

[Hibernian]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Jesus christ not another Norn Iron bloody forum.

To be honest can anyone tell me where Irish soccer fans talk about Irish football this is getting stupid

[Blanchflower]

Very descriptive.

Anyone want to tell me why you're allowed to call yourself British if you're not from Britain? (Dont worry, I'm not attempting to drive ye into the sea, this is rhetoric.)

Is someone from the Isle of Man not British? Someone from the Orkneys?

Is someone from the Arran Islands not Irish?

Is someone from the Canary Islands not Spanish?

Is someone from Sardinia not Italian?

[GavinZac]

Because British Citizenship is extended to those who were not born and bred on the mainland of Britain.

Similarly, Irish "nationality" is extended to those not born on the island of Ireland - Lopez will fill you in on that.

It's not rocket science.
Right - so being British is about more than where you were born. Could the same be said for being Irish?
Where I'm going with this is that its a bit paradoxical to call yourself Irish and then reject symbols of "Irishness" like the Irish flag, in much the same way as we would reject a British flag. Mind you, the British flag contains elements referencing Ireland, and the Irish flag contains elements referencing Britain. If it were not for their misuse by certain uneducated trolls in Belfast, I'd wager most people would be happy with those "concessions".
That being said, I'm still in favour of anyone not satisfied with living in the UK stopping their moaning and coming to live here if its supposed to be so great.

[Hibernian]

Is someone from the Isle of Man not British? Someone from the Orkneys?

Is someone from the Arran Islands not Irish?

Is someone from the Canary Islands not Spanish?

Is someone from Sardinia not Italian?


what's your point in this???

Does anyone give a toss

Jesus are you really that backward and childish?? I taught they had moved on up there, ya right!!

[Blanchflower]

what's your point in this???

Does anyone give a toss

Jesus are you really that backward and childish?? I taught they had moved on up there, ya right!!

Obviously you give a toss or you wouldn't be intervening.

If you've a problem, take it up with Gavin Zac, not me: he introduced the argument.

[lopez]

You're contradicting yourself. Your first post says you want a compromise, the second post says that unionists can f*ck off if they don't like the current set-up.:mad:
Some northern nationalists (republicans in other words)are accused of never being happy with whatever the IFA does. I'm saying the same with certain Northern unionists. If they don't like it, go set up your own 6C side with GSTQ and the butchers apron. Not unreasonable suggestion. You have your own 6C football side.


It's ludicrous to say that the IRFU has "bent over backwards" to accommodate unionist feelings. In the first instance, you view the "accommodation of unionist feelings" as something which is the result of the good-hearted generosity of the IRFU and for which unionists should be thankful. This indicates that you see the Ireland rugby team - not as a genuine all-Ireland team - but as essentially an ROI/nationalist institution with a bit of Northern/unionist involvement who need to be appeased out of politeness.
It is a Ireland team. I don't expect England to stand to the anthems of Ireland, India, Pakistan, Jamaica etc. in sport. Why should the Irish rugby team do likewise. While I agree the SS would have to go in an all-Ireland state, if Ireland's call was made the Irish national anthem tomorrow you'd still get people saying it doesn't represent me. Personally, if you're not happy, set up your own 6C team.

Second, it is hardly "bending over backwards" to rip up an ostensibly even-handed policy in respect of flags and anthems in order to introduce a new one-sided policy whereby Southern flags and anthems are used in the South, but matches in the North are treated as away matches.
If NI had its own anthem that's fine. The Sash is the most extreme one you could go for, but I'd agree to it. Presumably the NI flag would do, although why not have both at every game. But seriously, the same one as England?

BTW, the IRFU treating a game in Belfast as an away game is a disgrace.

Third, it is hardly "bending over backwards" to do nothing about introducing a neutral anthem for 50-odd years.
Outside of Dublin, there has been no anthem since partition sanctioned by the IRFU (it seems that other unions have had their own idea on the matter).

Er, I've already stood corrected on that.
Bit late posting I'm afraid

Bizarre, if true.
Not really. Some people actually believe Ireland is still part of the union. This is actually not me being funny. I know someone who tried discussing the troops on the streets of Dublin a decade ago (and he wasn't a Yank trying to give me money 'for the boys' (Quote Sean Hughes is similar situation: 'But I don't have any children))

Not in the least. Those Irishmen and women who are British are no less Irish because of it. Don't attribute your narrow mindset to others.
Again I'm talking about nationality, the highest measurement of identity in most peoples views (passports are not handed out on musical or fashon tastes). I know where you are from, and the majority of that place don't want it to be British.

That would mean changing the status quo, about which you said earlier people should feck off if they didn't like it. Two anthems is fine by me, although I would have thought a single, neutral anthem would be preferable.
People can 'feck off' if they are asking for a dilution of Irish national identity with the Irish national rugby team (I hope you don't mind me using 'Irish' here). Two anthems entails an identity is not replaced by some Disneyesque (which is most people's problem with IC) and rather supplemented by another. The Irish rugby team may not encompass two sovereign states, but it does the two largest - and more importantly indigenous - nationalities in Ireland (no we can't have the Polish, Chinese and Lithuanian anthems as well). If we can have an anthem that is Irish and unionist (a NI anthem), then play that with the SS.

That doesn't make sense. NI is not an all-Ireland team.
It claims to represent a country with an indigenous minority who believe that the SS is their anthem. If you want the rugby team to be totally inclusive, then why not the IFA? Or is this your own 'f*ck off if you don't like it'.

Not stupid in the least. If Southerners object to the Northern anthem because they are not British, it is no more or no less stupid for Northerners to object to the Southern anthem because they are not Southern Irish. What some people "believe" about the Southern anthem is irrelevant.
Basically f*ck off if you don't like what is played at WP. As I've said to NB, it's academical what you play at NI games now. Fans have long ago gone elsewhere. Now the footballers can too.

I don't see what you're saying here. What have the "symbols of Irish nationalism" got to do with anything and who is being asked to, or refusing to, recognise them?
The IFA.

And your continual references to "Ireland" won't alter the fact that the team you refer to is only a 26-county team.It has players and fans from the 32C, so that is no longer the case.

[Blanchflower]

Where I'm going with this is that its a bit paradoxical to call yourself Irish and then reject symbols of "Irishness" like the Irish flag, in much the same way as we would reject a British flag. Mind you, the British flag contains elements referencing Ireland, and the Irish flag contains elements referencing Britain. If it were not for their misuse by certain uneducated trolls in Belfast, I'd wager most people would be happy with those "concessions".
That being said, I'm still in favour of anyone not satisfied with living in the UK stopping their moaning and coming to live here if its supposed to be so great.
Wouldn't disagree with much of that.

[janeymac]

I stand corrected, then. Was no anthem used for away games prior to "Ireland's Call"?

By "fairly recently" I meant pre-"Ireland's Call".

6Ns Ireland didn't have an away anthem. The 'Rose of Tralee' was used at the World Cup since since 'most' teams (guess who the exceptions are) involved were the teams of sovereign States and have non-contentious anthems. Con Houlihan referred to it at the time as "God Save the Rose of Tralee":D

Incidentally, what about flags? What flags were/are flown to represent the Irish rugby team at away matches?

I've seen the IRFU flag used (4 province emblem with rugby ball in the middle - its frankly embarassing! Other one used is the 4 provinces flag stitched together. I head someone refer to that as something like a souvenir t-towel you would buy in a gift shop. Both these flags are meaningless/have no standing in the eyes of 85% of the people of the country which supports this team (bear in mind the 'Ireland' rugby team would probably not be participating in World Cups without the massive financial support provided by the people of the Republic in the form of stadia and grants to the IRFU. I doubt the IRFU wants to p**s them off too much as Her Majesty's Gov. does not give a toss about the 'Ireland' rugby team (i.e, it does not get a penny from the British Gov/NI Assembly).

I believe the Cross of St. Patrick was flown in Murrayfield at last 6Ns (No one realised what it was except a few NI supporters).

Oh, at the Ireland v England rugby game in Croke Park this year, the Ulster Province flag flew along with the Tri-Colour and Cross of St. George for England. That would have been confusing now if the 'official' NI flag, the Union Jack was flown for NI.:D

Just back to Ireland v. Italy game in Ravenhill. Apparently, with all of this 'pariety of esteem' stuff in NI (parades commission etc)., for cross-community events the advice is to have symbols and emblems from both communities or have none. The UB/IRFU took the 'none' option - which will go a long way to promote rugby among the nationalist community of NI. Fair play to the UB/NI rugby people who obviously have the development and promotion of the sport of rugby at heart and not some flag waving political agenda!

[Not Brazil]

Right - so being British is about more than where you were born. Could the same be said for being Irish?
Where I'm going with this is that its a bit paradoxical to call yourself Irish and then reject symbols of "Irishness" like the Irish flag, in much the same way as we would reject a British flag.

I honestly don't know what your point is?:confused:

For me, things are pretty simple.

I'm Irish (Northern Irish to be precise) and a British Citizen.

For the life of me, I don't get why anyone would be confused by that.

[lopez]

A "tan flag"? The "Butchers' Apron"? You seem to have a bit of an anger issue. Why do you object to the St Patrick's Cross?
It's all the trapping sof imperialism to the majority of the Irish. A bit like the Union Jack with a swastika though it as the flag of Nazi rule.

I'd love to know. Prejudice and intolerance on the part of the IRFU?Or the fact that NI does not have its own anthem. Well we agree on something here (whoo-hoo). Maybe a petition might change their minds when you get your own anthem?

...Mind you, the British flag contains elements referencing Ireland, and the Irish flag contains elements referencing Britain...I don't think the Irish flag implies Britain to be a colony. The Orange (not Gold or Yellow, muppetts) represents the Protestant tradition. Perhaps our non-Orange friends find this offensive, but it means that you can be Irish and not be Catholic.


what's your point in this???

Does anyone give a toss

Jesus are you really that backward and childish?? I taught they had moved on up there, ya right!!This is a friendly get together across the political divide. Individuals discussing numerous topics of common interest, some of which include football. If you cannot contribute and feel this is all too boring for you, please don't let me stop you going back to your Free - State playground. :D

[geysir]

I propose that this thread be locked.

That all replies since around post 935 be dumped somewhere, in the Liffey perhaps.
All those posts since 935 have surely been disscussed in this thread before.

The Eligibility issue is overdone and dusted

[Hibernian]

Obviously you give a toss or you wouldn't be intervening.

If you've a problem, take it up with Gavin Zac, not me: he introduced the argument.

Sorry I taught you could back up your own arguments and dont need someone else to do them for you

[GavinZac]

I don't think the Irish flag implies Britain to be a colony.And the Union Jack doesnt imply Ireland to be a colony, nor wales nor Scotland. if they were including colonies there'd be some references to the commonwealth in there, no?


The Orange (not Gold or Yellow, muppetts) represents the Protestant tradition. Perhaps our non-Orange friends find this offensive, but it means that you can be Irish and not be Catholic.This may be news to you, but the Orange has little to do with religion and a lot to do with Willhem of Orange. On our flag, it represents that you can be both Irish and British.

[Blanchflower]

Some northern nationalists (republicans in other words)are accused of never being happy with whatever the IFA does. I'm saying the same with certain Northern unionists.
Which ones? I'm sure most, if not all, would be happy if there were an even-handed policy. I certainly would.


If they don't like it, go set up your own 6C side with GSTQ and the butchers apron. Not unreasonable suggestion. You have your own 6C football side.
I'm sure many would be very happy to have a NI rugby team, but there isn't one and isn't likely ever to be one. Is it too much to ask for an even-handed approach in respect of flags and anthems? Why such hostility towards such a simple request?


It is a Ireland team.
Indeed: all-Ireland.


I don't expect England to stand to the anthems of Ireland, India, Pakistan, Jamaica etc. in sport.
Nor would I. Who's suggesting that they should?


Why should the Irish rugby team do likewise.
No idea. Who's suggesting that it should?


While I agree the SS would have to go in an all-Ireland state, if Ireland's call was made the Irish national anthem tomorrow you'd still get people saying it doesn't represent me. Personally, if you're not happy, set up your own 6C team.
Not sure what point you're trying to make. People aren't objecting to the Soldier's Song as a song - it's the fact that the ROI anthem is being used for an all-Ireland team. It doesn't matter what song is used as the anthem.

Why should rugby people from NI have to choose between a biased set-up in respect of flags and anthems and setting up their own team? Wouldn't it be fairer and more reasonable to have an even-handed or neutral set-up?


If NI had its own anthem that's fine. The Sash is the most extreme one you could go for, but I'd agree to it.
So you're saying NI can have any anthem it likes, as long as its not GSTQ? Why's that?


Presumably the NI flag would do, although why not have both at every game.
I'd love to know. Presumably because of prejudice on the part of the IRFU?


But seriously, the same one as England?
So if England stopped using GSTQ (and used, say, Jerusalem instead), you would be happy with GSTQ?


BTW, the IRFU treating a game in Belfast as an away game is a disgrace.
If you agree that it is a disgrace, why are you telling NI rugby fans to f*ck off and set up their own team if they also object to it. That makes no sense.


Outside of Dublin, there has been no anthem since partition sanctioned by the IRFU (it seems that other unions have had their own idea on the matter).

Not true. GSTQ used to be used up until the 1950s.

What about matches in Limerick?


Not really. Some people actually believe Ireland is still part of the union.
Yanks, I can believe. But not Welsh. Didn't the IRFU point this out to them?


This is actually not me being funny. I know someone who tried discussing the troops on the streets of Dublin a decade ago (and he wasn't a Yank trying to give me money 'for the boys' (Quote Sean Hughes is similar situation: 'But I don't have any children))
:D I like Sean Hughes.


Again I'm talking about nationality, the highest measurement of identity in most peoples views (passports are not handed out on musical or fashon tastes). I know where you are from, and the majority of that place don't want it to be British.
Depends what you mean by nationality. You seem to be confusing it with citizenship. Regardless, people's Englishness, Irishness, Scottishness or Welshness is not diminished by their Britishness. Your opinion is irrelevant.


Two anthems entails an identity is not replaced by some Disneyesque (which is most people's problem with IC) and rather supplemented by another.
This doesn't appear to make grammatical sense.

I don't see how IC dilutes anyone's identity. Such a claim seems to me like a strange OTT reaction. Why would anyone make their identity dependent on an anthem (of any kind)?


The Irish rugby team may not encompass two sovereign states, but it does the two largest - and more importantly indigenous - nationalities in Ireland (no we can't have the Polish, Chinese and Lithuanian anthems as well). If we can have an anthem that is Irish and unionist (a NI anthem), then play that with the SS.
I don't care whether we have 2 anthems or 1 neutral anthem, as long as there is mutual respect and even-handedness.


It claims to represent a country with an indigenous minority who believe that the SS is their anthem.
It doesn't "claim" to represent anything: it actually is the NI national team. Some people's "belief" that the SS is their anthem doesn't mean that it is the anthem of NI. It would be ludicrous to play the anthem of the ROI before a NI match!


If you want the rugby team to be totally inclusive, then why not the IFA? Or is this your own 'f*ck off if you don't like it'.
I do want the IFA to be inclusive, and that includes adopting a NI anthem, not playing the Southern anthem as well as GSTQ. It's not the same to compare NI (one country) with the Ireland rugby team (representing two countries).


Basically f*ck off if you don't like what is played at WP. As I've said to NB, it's academical what you play at NI games now. Fans have long ago gone elsewhere. Now the footballers can too.
The above comment would appear to be irrelevant in response to what I posted, i.e.
If Southerners object to the Northern anthem because they are not British, it is no more or no less stupid for Northerners to object to the Southern anthem because they are not Southern Irish. What some people "believe" about the Southern anthem is irrelevant.

My point remains.


The IFA.
Who is asking the IFA to "recognise the symbols of Irish nationalism" and why?


It has players and fans from the 32C, so that is no longer the case.
It is. It's the ROI team. Having fans or picking players from NI does not alter that.

[Blanchflower]

Sorry I taught you could back up your own arguments and dont need someone else to do them for you
To which arguments are you referring?

I was asking questions of Gavin Zac, not putting forward an argument. Try reading the thread before posting.

[Hibernian]

To which arguments are you referring?

I was asking questions of Gavin Zac, not putting forward an argument. Try reading the thread before posting.

Well if you read it properly you would have.

[Drumcondra 69er]

And the Union Jack doesnt imply Ireland to be a colony, nor wales nor Scotland. if they were including colonies there'd be some references to the commonwealth in there, no?

This may be news to you, but the Orange has little to do with religion and a lot to do with Willhem of Orange. On our flag, it represents that you can be both Irish and British.

Not entirely true, it represnts the Catrholic and Protestant traditions on the island with the white signifying a truce between them. It was included to try and reconcile Irish Protestants with the independence movement. Independence in in this instance meaning indpedendent from Britain.

[Blanchflower]

It's all the trapping sof imperialism to the majority of the Irish.
How's that?


A bit like the Union Jack with a swastika though it as the flag of Nazi rule.
I've never seen such a flag, nor do I see how it would be anything like the St Patrick's Cross.


Or the fact that NI does not have its own anthem. .
How would that stop them flying the NI flag?

[Blanchflower]

Well if you read it properly you would have.

Sorry, that doesn't answer my question (which, I'll remind you, was: "to which arguments are you referring?"). Should you wish to engage properly in discussion, I will respond. Otherwise, I'll ignore you.

[GavinZac]

Not entirely true, it represnts the Catrholic and Protestant traditions on the island with the white signifying a truce between them. It was included to try and reconcile Irish Protestants with the independence movement. Independence in in this instance meaning indpedendent from Britain.

Why would religion have anything to do with nationality?

[Hibernian]

Sorry, that doesn't answer my question (which, I'll remind you, was: "to which arguments are you referring?"). Should you wish to engage properly in discussion, I will respond. Otherwise, I'll ignore you.

If you had looked at my first mail (which you did to some degree) you have have been able to reply.

Now I see you have very strong opinion about this topic and you cant seem to answer my question which is fair enough as I see from your other posts you do seem to get wound up about a bloody flag quite easily.