Hull City owners to take majority stake in Dundalk?

[redobit]

Has the FAI made any comment on this. I can't remember seeing anything. Wouldn't they have given this takeover by Ainscoigh the green light.

[pineapple stu]

Is it an option for Dundalk to choose to not fulfill the season, accept relegation, and at least save on wages for the rest of the year?
It surely can't be?

They all have contracts for the season - I don't think they can move outside the transfer window as they weren't free agents when the window closed. So the contracts have to be honoured. Players mightn't get paid - but then again they might. Or they might get paid a portion of their salaries, which is better than nothing.

[Buckett]

If the players are not paid, they can object to Dundalk being given a licence next season, so they're screwed either way.

[Another Bohemia]

Don't know much detail on the demographics of Dundalk would the town have the wealth in it to sustain a fan owned model ?

Sligo manage and they've a population smaller than Dundalk I would've thought

[Jamesie]

From December last year.
From the way he left Kerry, and then that interview, it seems obvious he was only in it for himself. This shambles was entirely foreseeable.

Is it an option for Dundalk to choose to not fulfill the season, accept relegation, and at least save on wages for the rest of the year?
It's horrible on the players, but it sounds like they won't be getting paid anyway. If they're released, they would be free agents and could sign elsewhere (have I got that right?).

Dublin City and Monaghan didn't fulfill fixtures and were never seen again....that's where that leads

[LTFC]

To be fair, this wild overspending and mismanagement by Dundalk owners isn't exactly representative of the league as a whole.

Clubs need to live within their means, but there's no reason professional football cannot be sustained in a town like Dundalk, as long as they're not stupid about it.

I'm still not convinced that this is this case. It would appear that between 3m and 4m per annum is required to run a full time professional club at the moment, and that is current expenditure, not capital. Over a 5 year period, means spending 15m plus. Over that 5 years not every club will be getting UEFA prizemoney, and no club over the last 5 seasons would have averaged 1m on league gates and season ticket sales.

[nigel-harps1954]

I'm still not convinced that this is this case. It would appear that between 3m and 4m per annum is required to run a full time professional club at the moment, and that is current expenditure, not capital. Over a 5 year period, means spending 15m plus. Over that 5 years not every club will be getting UEFA prizemoney, and no club over the last 5 seasons would have averaged 1m on league gates and season ticket sales.

Where are you getting 3m or 4m out of?

[LTFC]

Where are you getting 3m or 4m out of?

Am I wrong? 2022 wages figures in premier div was 15m on revenues of 26m , includ uefa prize money.

[culloty82]

It surely can't be?

They all have contracts for the season - I don't think they can move outside the transfer window as they weren't free agents when the window closed. So the contracts have to be honoured. Players mightn't get paid - but then again they might. Or they might get paid a portion of their salaries, which is better than nothing.

Not to mention that given the way the licensing process works nowadays, clubs have to submit their paperwork from June onwards, with the various stages being assessed in the subsequent month - granted, special dispensation might be given for a new entity to submit an emergency bid in November in order to try to tick all the boxes by February, but (a) that would be a tight turnaround even with no stadium work required, and (b) effectively shutting the club down now would hardly help matters.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

Am I wrong? 2022 wages figures in premier div was 15m on revenues of 26m , includ uefa prize money.

That was us the last couple of seasons and I’d say we’re spending less this season. Lot of Europe travel and extra bonuses in 2022.

“Total expenditure for the 2023 season was €2.36 million, down from €2.85 million in 2022.

Mr Rowe told the meeting that it now costs at least €2 million run a competitive League of Ireland Premier Division club.”

[nigel-harps1954]

I might be grossly underestimating matters, but I don't see any reason why a club shouldn't be able to manage a full time professional setup on 1-2m a year, and that should be manageable for someone like Dundalk.

[LTFC]

That was us the last couple of seasons and I’d say we’re spending less this season. Lot of Europe travel and extra bonuses in 2022.

“Total expenditure for the 2023 season was €2.36 million, down from €2.85 million in 2022.

Mr Rowe told the meeting that it now costs at least €2 million run a competitive League of Ireland Premier Division club.”

Still circa 45k per week to run the club, albeit better that 55k per week in 2022. And I doubt Sligo are one of the bigger spenders!

[LTFC]

I might be grossly underestimating matters, but I don't see any reason why a club shouldn't be able to manage a full time professional setup on 1-2m a year, and that should be manageable for someone like Dundalk.

I think there was some mention that players wages should not exceed 65% of turnover. Take 2m of turnover you have 1.3m for wages. If you split that between 25 players and management, about 47k average gross, and 700k to run the club, including wages of permanent staff. That second part is doable alright, running a club for under 700k, but the issue can be that the wages costs is much higher than the 65%.

Then on the income side, how do you generate 2m? Shamrock Rovers the only club likely to earn 1m from gates/season tickets in a season, but in their case they are spending way more than 2m. SLigo, based on 2500 average, would do well to get 600k from gate receipts.

[nigel-harps1954]

Clubs in Ireland can't be solely reliant on gate income or match day income. Especially if a club goes down the route of fan ownership. Sligo have led the way in fundraising, and raise a ridiculous amount of money each year through various fan fundraisers, and the likes of Bohemians have shown how to be smart commercially. The combination of these ideas should be the blueprint for any fan owned club in Ireland, especially those in bigger towns like Dundalk, also being the biggest sporting body in the area.

[LTFC]

Clubs in Ireland can't be solely reliant on gate income or match day income. Especially if a club goes down the route of fan ownership. Sligo have led the way in fundraising, and raise a ridiculous amount of money each year through various fan fundraisers, and the likes of Bohemians have shown how to be smart commercially. The combination of these ideas should be the blueprint for any fan owned club in Ireland, especially those in bigger towns like Dundalk, also being the biggest sporting body in the area.

Dont disagree with that, although thats a hard slog just to stand still.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

Still circa 45k per week to run the club, albeit better that 55k per week in 2022. And I doubt Sligo are one of the bigger spenders!

Yeah but 3-4m is not needed to run a club. It’s just that clubs lose the run of themselves. I would say we did the same ourselves in 2023 after the Europe run and lost 300k. It’s only a month since Dundalk in relegation trouble and now unable to pay their players were announcing Daryl Horgan re-signed for 2025. How much of a first division budget would he be taking up. The lack of planning is absolutely shocking if maybe not surprising.

[nigel-harps1954]

Dont disagree with that, although thats a hard slog just to stand still.

It's a tough slog as a fan owned club, but it's ultimately more rewarding, easier to remain living within your means when it means more to you, and also a hell of a lot more stable than their current situation.

[brendy_éire]

It surely can't be?

They all have contracts for the season - I don't think they can move outside the transfer window as they weren't free agents when the window closed. So the contracts have to be honoured. Players mightn't get paid - but then again they might. Or they might get paid a portion of their salaries, which is better than nothing.

Going off this, I think they can leave and become free agents. If they're free agents, not of their own fault, seems reasonable that they can seek employment elsewhere, regardless of when in the season it is.

"In the case of a club unlawfully failing to pay a player at least two monthly salaries on their due dates, the player will be deemed to have a just cause to terminate his contract, provided that he has put the debtor club in default in writing and has granted a deadline of at least 15 days for the debtor club to fully comply with its financial obligation(s). Alternative provisions in contracts existing at the time of this provision coming into force may be considered…”

https://wdassocies.com/en/termination-of-a-contract-due-to-unpaid-salaries-in-football

[pineapple stu]

Well the players can choose to walk - but the club surely can't just choose to not pay to break contract?

That sounds like way more trouble than it's worth

[redobit]

Clubs in Ireland can't be solely reliant on gate income or match day income. Especially if a club goes down the route of fan ownership. Sligo have led the way in fundraising, and raise a ridiculous amount of money each year through various fan fundraisers, and the likes of Bohemians have shown how to be smart commercially. The combination of these ideas should be the blueprint for any fan owned club in Ireland, especially those in bigger towns like Dundalk, also being the biggest sporting body in the area.

Aboutely and Id add that it ties the club even tighter to the local community. When there is a bit of success, it really does mean more cause you feel directly connected to it behind the scenes and jot just from the terrace. Its no coincidence that we have done well in a recession, the backers cash fades away but fan owned self sustaining clubs dont sink and become competitive.
I'm off to get ready to go door to door selling our annual draw tickets. 108k raised last year and hoping to beat that this year.

[EatYerGreens]

For the umpteenth time EYG you gloat with the benefit of hindsight, jaysus even Mystic Meg was correct on an occasion! To repeat myself for your benefit the P6 mess wasnt a forgone conclusion,

You know when people warn you in-advance that something will end up badly - and then it DOES end up badly? That is called FORESIGHT, not hindsight.

And it had nothing to do with a lucky prediction. It was obvious that the likelihood of Peak 6 not ending well was high (given the nature of it all), that only those being wilfully blind couldn't see the elevated risk involved.

You may seek solace in an assetion that it wasn't guaranteed to end up badly. But the fact is that it DID. Which you were all warned by many people on here that it would.

[sbgawa]

It seems a takeover could be happening next week. Debts are big that's for sure, but you can deal with them if there is a structure, revenue for a start will need a payment plan but that can be done.

Rovers went into examinership and most debts were wiped, not sure I agree with that, and would prefer if DFC didn't (yet it could happen) I would much prefer new group to take over and deal with the debt, slice and divide.

For Rovers, more you think of it, their route was like hitting the jackpot, all debts forgiven, then moved into a stadium that they paid very little towards, but granted monthly rent is now upped from 8k to 20k (I think), high price but to be fair its a great facility as anchor tenants and they have very strong crowds / revenue so that's also fair. Cork City are in the same boat, its definitely the way forward for LOI clubs, to rent off local authority or FAI sub club (MFA). Derry / Waterford / Galway etc have similar set ups, all playing in very good grounds that they don't own but is a good facility..
.

Been meaning to reply to this,
Examinership isnt easy and costs money . I was around but not involved so cant claim any credit but i do know that the process costs a lot.
Rpvers examinership lasted 12 weeks and cost the members over 400k funded by loans taken out by members and all staff were paid in full during the examinership.
The tax man was burnt for sure but the company has paid a multiple of that amount over the years by staying alive.
Not quite the winning the lotto for the people paying the loans back over the next 5 to 10 years

Im making this point as going into examinership wont work for Dundalk unless the bills can be paid ongoingly , the examioner wont work for free..
If BA cant find someone to pay the overhead while examinership is happening it cant happen

[Nesta99]

You know when people warn you in-advance that something will end up badly - and then it DOES end up badly? That is called FORESIGHT, not hindsight.

And it had nothing to do with a lucky prediction. It was obvious that the likelihood of Peak 6 not ending well was high (given the nature of it all), that only those being wilfully blind couldn't see the elevated risk involved.

You may seek solace in an assetion that it wasn't guaranteed to end up badly. But the fact is that it DID. Which you were all warned by many people on here that it would.

So where is your foresight on all other matters of ownership related issues across LoI for however long you hav been supporter including Derry cheating with dual contracts? P6 failed in the main due to an unfortunate and entirely bizzare set of circumstances. You were calling it an Arkaga MkII which it wasnt, P6 certainly didnt run out of money and they ultimately in the end did what many Dundalk fans demanded which was to leave. They may have left anyway and things may have collapsed but you had no more foresight than anyone else to be in a position to warn bar a generic stereotypical Irish careful now. Yes plenty of other outlined the potential pitfalls, including Dundalk fans, but none have gone on to gloat about how right they were at every opportunity. It's Trump like - bragging ad nauseum on a binomial possibility as if it was insightful genius with some sort of growing epizeuxis each time. You were expressing hope and no more at the time. FFS even Placid said he was worried that P6 was working, Regardless its all a mute point which you insist on remaking and we can all do the told you so with the benefit of hindsight. But if it makes you feel better, whole, and really smart, then yes you were, inadvertantly or otherwise, right!!

I will While I will probably give to the gofundme, Im recluctant and it has nothing to do with being tired with the financial flap every dacade or so, im not that sure yet what my issue is, a combination probably - past statements by this supporters club, recent contradictions, is it bailing out BA or assist him in not making any effort to limp on to season end. The kneejerk rection when there has been years of apathy when there needed to be proactive rainy day fundraising but the focus was on protesting world politics issues at Oriel instead (like taking issue with not being allowed Palestinian flags during European fixtures and demonstrations outside the ground). Id love to know what the last significant fundraiser was. How the weekly club lotto nubers are compared to past eras to guage effort and fan contributions outside of matchnights etc. Where the Shedside Army are that were so keen to protest some past ownerships yet not others that were arguably worse.

[Knocklyonhoop]

Going off this, I think they can leave and become free agents. If they're free agents, not of their own fault, seems reasonable that they can seek employment elsewhere, regardless of when in the season it is

fairly sure if you’re not paid you can move on. Problem for these lads is they aren’t very good so they are unlikely to get similar contracts elsewhere. Most would have to wait til Jan / Feb next yr too as who would take on and pay over winter with no need to

[oriel]

Seemingly wages have now been paid, and this is completely separate to the fan based Go Fund me (13.5k now), so BA must have got the cash from somewhere.

But it shouldn't have come to this, and is there any guarantee he will pay next months wages if there is no takeover by then?

[dundalkfc10]

Clubs in Ireland can't be solely reliant on gate income or match day income. Especially if a club goes down the route of fan ownership. Sligo have led the way in fundraising, and raise a ridiculous amount of money each year through various fan fundraisers, and the likes of Bohemians have shown how to be smart commercially. The combination of these ideas should be the blueprint for any fan owned club in Ireland, especially those in bigger towns like Dundalk, also being the biggest sporting body in the area.

In fairess to the GAA, Gaelic football is pretty big in Dundalk (although only 1 is a Div 1 side)
Their is 6 GAA clubs in Dundalk town alone, not including another 4 or 5 a few miles outside the town

Compare that to a big GAA town like Navan and they have 2 GAA teams in the town (I know it wouldn't be as big as Dundalk)


Seemingly wages have now been paid, and this is completely separate to the fan based Go Fund me (13.5k now), so BA must have got the cash from somewhere.

But it shouldn't have come to this, and is there any guarantee he will pay next months wages if there is no takeover by then?

James Rogers mentioned the PFAI emergency fund would be used to pay players if the club couldn't

I'd say Ainscough got the cash in somewhere as surely this wouldnt be something PFAI pay out after a week or 2

[joey B]

1833849852796735876

[NavanBohs]

Shamrock Rovers the only club likely to earn 1m from gates/season tickets in a season

Bohs do and I'd assume all Dublin clubs would.

Around a 3,700 average by even an average €15 ticket price x 18 games takes in €1m.

[pineapple stu]

There's no way average ticket price is €15 surely? What's a regular ticket?

Average ticket price could easily be 33% less than regular price. (Though we can just look up Bohs' accounts I guess)

[nigel-harps1954]

Bohs do and I'd assume all Dublin clubs would.

Around a 3,700 average by even an average €15 ticket price x 18 games takes in €1m.

Average ticket price at Bohs is €11. Adult €16, concession €11 and child €6.

Take in season tickets, just for arguments sake even say all 2,000, or thereabouts, season tickets were all at the €250 rate, works out at €13 a game.

So, the 2,000 season ticket holders are providing €468,000 for the season, while the regular match day ticket crowd are taking in €336,000.

It's still a cracking figure for ticket income for the season, but still about €200k short of the million.

All this is based off your assumption of 3,700 average. Despite Bohs actually averaging about 4,200.

A 4,200 average for the season would bump that up by about another 100k.

[joey B]

The PressboxDundalk podcast well worth a listen today to get an idea of the story at Dundalk ,James Rogers seems to be pretty sure that alot of local businesses are going to get burned from this…..

[Another Bohemia]

Average ticket price at Bohs is €11. Adult €16, concession €11 and child €6.

Take in season tickets, just for arguments sake even say all 2,000, or thereabouts, season tickets were all at the €250 rate, works out at €13 a game.

So, the 2,000 season ticket holders are providing €468,000 for the season, while the regular match day ticket crowd are taking in €336,000.

It's still a cracking figure for ticket income for the season, but still about €200k short of the million.

All this is based off your assumption of 3,700 average. Despite Bohs actually averaging about 4,200.

A 4,200 average for the season would bump that up by about another 100k.

Bohs are lucky to have the bars on top of that. I know Dan McDonnell mentioned it on LOI Central a few weeks back after a particularly poor showing from Bohs the bars were still hopping. I believe it was after the last game against Dundalk. Whoever it was revenue from stuff like that is huge for any club

[David BOHie]

In 2022, Bohs turned over €4m. €1.05m was gates and memberships, €1.5m in merchandise, the rest in sponsorship, bar sales, match programmers, transfers etc.

We spent roughly €4m too. Running women's teams, youth teams etc ion top of mens senior team is an expensive business

[joey B]

https://m.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/american-football-investor-jeffrey-saunders-heading-group-considering-dundalk-takeover/a1745529337.html

American investor interested in Dundalk,was behind Flippo getting the job a few years ago and still works with him,interested in multi club European operation with a club in Switzerland already acquired……

[brendy_éire]

And begin the cycle all over again? I know Dundalk are desperate, but this surely can't be the option? Questions over the debt remain too. Whatever about local creditors, owing money to Revenue is the big one.

[ger121]

https://m.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/american-football-investor-jeffrey-saunders-heading-group-considering-dundalk-takeover/a1745529337.html

American investor interested in Dundalk,was behind Flippo getting the job a few years ago and still works with him,interested in multi club European operation with a club in Switzerland already acquired……

Someone posted an article on SM where one of the clubs this guy owns, signed his son who has no professional experience and only played at a college level.

If nobody is willing to buy the club and clear down the debt, then what options are open to the club/new owners?

[Longfordian]

https://m.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/american-football-investor-jeffrey-saunders-heading-group-considering-dundalk-takeover/a1745529337.html

American investor interested in Dundalk,was behind Flippo getting the job a few years ago and still works with him,interested in multi club European operation with a club in Switzerland already acquired……

Anyone that's part of a multi club model can't be evil.

[oriel]

And begin the cycle all over again? I know Dundalk are desperate, but this surely can't be the option? Questions over the debt remain too. Whatever about local creditors, owing money to Revenue is the big one.

Is there anything to be said for having another Mass?

[ger121]

Is there anything to be said for having another Mass?

As in another mass spending spree? Think that is well underway.

[NavanBohs]

Average ticket price at Bohs is €11. Adult €16, concession €11 and child €6.

Take in season tickets, just for arguments sake even say all 2,000, or thereabouts, season tickets were all at the €250 rate, works out at €13 a game.

So, the 2,000 season ticket holders are providing €468,000 for the season, while the regular match day ticket crowd are taking in €336,000.

It's still a cracking figure for ticket income for the season, but still about €200k short of the million.

All this is based off your assumption of 3,700 average. Despite Bohs actually averaging about 4,200.

A 4,200 average for the season would bump that up by about another 100k.

Our combined member/ST base is around the 3,000 mark. The majority of this is members, which is €400 rather than €250 which is season ticket price and we've just a few hundred of those.

We sell a very limited amount of concession tickets, and for games against Rovers/Pats/Shels/Dundalk/Derry ("Category A" games) our adult price is €20 which is the bulk of public sale tickets. So average public ticket price much higher than €11 too.

In 2022 our combined membership/ST/ticket sales was a little over €1m with an average attendance of 3,209.

[outspoken]

Dundalk wages now paid

[Buckett]

Our combined member/ST base is around the 3,000 mark. The majority of this is members, which is €400 rather than €250 which is season ticket price and we've just a few hundred of those.

We sell a very limited amount of concession tickets, and for games against Rovers/Pats/Shels/Dundalk/Derry ("Category A" games) our adult price is €20 which is the bulk of public sale tickets. So average public ticket price much higher than €11 too.

In 2022 our combined membership/ST/ticket sales was a little over €1m with an average attendance of 3,209.

I would have thought that Bohs had a lot more than a few hundred season ticket holders

[NavanBohs]

I would have thought that Bohs had a lot more than a few hundred season ticket holders

Most nowadays opt for membership or convert from ST to membership where possible - it's essentially part ownership of the club with your season ticket included so you could more or less say we have 3,000+ season tickets holders. All members have access to the Jodi and priority over STs for away tickets. I think the only actual season tickets we can sell now are for the uncovered Des Kelly stand.

[Buckett]

Ah right, that's where I got confused. Great numbers, the new Dalymount will need an extension before long.

[Martinho II]

Dundalk wages now paid

By whom?

[Longfordian]

Finn Harps considering looking for outside investment apparently.

[ger121]

Finn Harps considering looking for outside investment apparently.

Wrong thread I know but I wonder how the fundraising is going for the stadium. Maybe the hope is that investment would expedite the process. In a weird way, Harps would be a more attractive proposition to invest in presently than Dundalk.

[culloty82]

Finn Harps considering looking for outside investment apparently.

More info here - am I right in thinking it's just Bohs, Cobh, Harps and Sligo who follow the supporters trust model now?

https://highlandradio.com/2024/09/12/finn-harps-to-consider-private-ownership-model/

[ForzaForth]

Wexford also

[sbgawa]

Rovers 50%