2014 World Cup

[pineapple stu]

It seems the surname was actually Gardassanich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gino_Gardassanich), which was of Croatian origin. He had moved to the US in 1949 and, as was the tradition of many immigrants keen to quickly immerse themselves in the American melting pot, deforeignised his surname. He changed it to Gard, but Gardassanich already looks like an Anglicised transcription of a South Slavic surname anyway...
True. He was born in Rijeka, when at the time was the independent state of Fiume, which shortly after became an Italian city of the same name.

But yeah, his ethnicity was certainly Croatian alright. Even if he hardly ever knew an independent Croatia.

[Eminence Grise]

What's the likelihood that FIFA might be in infringing upon Suarez's right to work or make a living? If Liverpool were within their rights to withhold wages, surely such questions would be raised. I know FIFPro raised the issue the other day. You'd imagine club contracts would legally feature clauses in respect of potential breach through long-term playing bans and the like though.

Boo-hoo! If you or I bit somebody while at work, forget about suspension, we'd get the sack*, and the kind of reference we'd get would make it pretty hard to get employment afterwards. Surely a club would have a clause inserted in their contracts that if a player's actions prevent them from fulfilling the terms of their contract the club can dock wages or sack them - especially after Adrien Mutu and Chelsea, for instance.

Anyway, that bastion of balance and fairness in journalism, the Daily Star on Sunday, is reporting that Suarez has bitten up to eight players, but that dark forces in Uruguay have conspired to cover it up. http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/386282/FIFA-investigators-probe-claim-Luis-Suarez-has-bitten-eight-players . If true, it adds a new dimension to the saga.

* I mightn't, come to think of it. Not sure how far the public service can be stretched before it becomes obvious I'm extracting the urine!!:sinister:

[DannyInvincible]

A comparison here (from before the FIFA panel reached their decision, admittedly) with how Suarez might have been punished under the law of the land had he committed his misdemeanour in the street: http://www.theguardian.com/football/shortcuts/2014/jun/25/luis-suarez-bite-giorgio-chiellini-street-law


So what will happen to Luis Suárez now? Fifa has opened disciplinary proceedings, having taken the view that footage of him biting Italian defender Giorgio Chiellini constitutes "an apparent breach of art. 48 and/or art. 57 of the FIFA Disciplinary Code". Those articles, just to refresh your memory, relate to "misconduct against an opponent" and "offensive behaviour". Article 48 specifies a ban of "at least two matches for assaulting an opponent", and adds that the committee can also impose fines, which can range from 300 up to 1,000,000 Swiss francs. (That's somewhere between £200 and £660,000.)

"At least" may well be the key phrase here, however. Biting is a fairly serious form of assaulting an opponent, and Suárez is already one of the most prolific miscreants in the game. If this case is proven, he will have either bitten or racially abused an opposing player in four out of the past five years. Bookmaker William Hill is offering odds of 11/10-on that Suárez will be banned by Fifa for a minimum of seven games. Victor Chandler is offering just 3/1 against that he will be banned for 25 or more. (Fifa's code stipulates that a ban could not exceed 24 matches or 24 months.)

But why should anybody's punishment be measured in football matches? Biting somebody – let alone biting three people – is not just against the laws of football, it is against the law. The police and CPS seem happy to leave most of the violence on football pitches to the game's own legal system, but had Suárez jogged over to Giorgio Chiellini and bitten him in the street – and let's assume this is an English street – would that not be assault?

"Absolutely," says Hannah Evans, a criminal barrister at 23 Essex Street. "And if it was captured on TV you've got some nice evidence right there." Under English law, Evans explains, a charge of assault occasioning actual bodily harm could be brought if the alleged bite did damage, such as breaking the skin, causing bleeding or leaving a mark, but a charge of common assault, to be heard without a jury in a magistrate's court, would be more likely.

Assuming a prosecution for common assault then, what kind of sentence would Suárez expect if he were convicted in England? "You're not looking at anything particularly high. If he hasn't got any form for it, not more than a community order, I would imagine. Unpaid work, perhaps between 180 and 240 hours. Since it was such a public offence a court might want to send a warning. An anger-management programme could be an option."

But of course Suárez does have form. So what would happen if he had two previous convictions for biting? "With assault you are still very rarely looking at custody, but if the offences are very similar and he clearly isn't learning from his experience in the courts, they could well think that it does cross the custody threshold. And they could suspend any custodial sentence. You'd be looking at a short one, though. A matter of weeks." On reflection, Suárez might feel that 24 matches would be worse.

[pineapple stu]

This'll be an interesting comparison - an English fan bit off another English fan's ear in the ground just after the England v Uruguay game (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-28072902).

Granted, biting off part of someone's ear is worse than biting someone on the shoulder of course.

[osarusan]

A comparison here (from before the FIFA panel reached their decision, admittedly) with how Suarez might have been punished under the law of the land had he committed his misdemeanour in the street:

These comparisons with street or workplace misdemeanours are just so silly.

What if Nigel de Jong had done what he did to Alonso on the street?

What if Keane had tackled Haaland on the street?

Pointless argument, and silly for newspapers to be entertaining it.

[bennocelt]

Sorry if its coca cola, but that Mexican manager is brilliant, love his pitch side antics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnz-FKiGuWw

[Crosby87]

Mexican journos describe him as "seductive" according to espn. Odd term.

[Razors left peg]

Danny I could see this Suarez debate turning into another Eligibility thread so now that Uruguay are out and we dont have to listen to their crap anymore Im out :)

The last thing I'll say about it is that this is... Im copying and pasting from Graham Hunter on Twitter yesterday, and he pretty much sums it up for me: Everyone supporting Suarez or excusing him just look at his alleged aberration of a defence. If true: cheat, liar, fraud. Deserves his ban

Im gonna just get on with enjoying the rest of this fantastic Tournament now. Mexico against Holland should be another cracker!

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

I see that Sneijder and Van Persie still hate each other.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Mexico carving through Holland like butter.

[Crosby87]

The Dutch are in dissaray chaps. Im having mexican food. Carnitas tacos, rice and a cheese thing.

[Crosby87]

Mexico are such a charlie darwin type team. Somewhere in far east asia charlie is drinking saki and smiling. Possibly in the company of various women of the night.

[NeverFeltBetter]

The Dutch can keep a hold of the ball for long spells when they want to.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Thing is Holland can actually play football, Mexico are relying on their so far, excellent keeper.

And Danny, ask the average Brazilian fan if they think Costa is 'Spanish'?
Realise he meets the 'eligibility' criteria but this residency thing is a ****** and we should all know this...as its potential to hit small countries is quite great.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Great dummy by Kuyt in the build up to the goal. Say what you want about him but he never shirks the big occasions. Emphatic finish by Sneijder.

[Crosby87]

Great dummy by Kuyt in the build up to the goal. Say what you want about him but he never shirks the big occasions. Emphatic finish by Sneijder.

I havent seen you this excited since that time you saw Mel Gibson's naked bum.
Cracking game.

[osarusan]

Dutch were a shambles at times. If the Mexicans had had more belief they could have killed them on the counter, but they got too defensive and paid the price.

That Dutch team isn't anything special. Great attackers, even though Van Persie was invisible today. Robben still flinging himself to the ground.

[Crosby87]

The keepers cousin is the golfer Lorena Ochoa. Good genes in that family.

[DannyInvincible]

I really dislike Robben. Such a little brat. Depriving us of another half an hour of entertainment and a penalty shoot-out!

I thought Ochoa might perform heroics again and save the penalty. His gloves have been like magnets all tournament.

The heat looked ridiculous. If the fans couldn't bare it sitting in the stadium, I don't know how players are expected to safely run around in it for 90 minutes. I think I heard it was 38 degrees celsius at the beginning of the second half.

[Crosby87]

How come they dont put some games on at night when its cooler?

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Is Crosby on cocaine?

[Razors left peg]

The Dutch aren't anything fantastic by any means but they will beat the winners of Costa Rica/Greece. That will give them a semi final against Argentina, 2 pretty average teams with some brilliant individuals. I fancy the Dutch to be able to hit Argentina on the break and catch them. So even though there arent amazing I think they will make final where anything can happen!

[Razors left peg]

How come they dont put some games on at night when its cooler?
European TV I would imagine is the reason

[Stuttgart88]

I've no sympathy for Mexico even though I've loved their opening 3 games. They had no ambition at all after they scored and invited a response from an ordinary Dutch team that was struggling until the goal. They should have made the Dutch earn their way back into the game. The Dutch threatened from set pieces and had nearly equalised a couple of times. Had the Mexicans shown more moral courage I'd imagine they'd have seen it out comfortably enough.

[BonnieShels]

How come they dont put some games on at night when its cooler?


European TV I would imagine is the reason

This why


Is Crosby on cocaine?


Amongst others. Penchant for speedballing does our Crosby.

[BonnieShels]

I've no sympathy for Mexico even though I've loved their opening 3 games. They had no ambition at all after they scored and invited a response from an ordinary Dutch team that was struggling until the goal. They should have made the Dutch earn their way back into the game. The Dutch threatened from set pieces and had nearly equalised a couple of times. Had the Mexicans shown more moral courage I'd imagine they'd have seen it out comfortably enough.

I'm delighted the Dutch are through though I would have hoped they'd show more. They seemed to be really affected by the heat.

I still want to live in a world where Dirk Kuyt and Nigel De Jong have won a World Cup and Cruyff hasn't.

[Crosby87]

Are any of you married to a Dutch bloke? Ask if they call their country Holland or Netherlands. I always wanted to know that.

[BonnieShels]

Are any of you married to a Dutch bloke? Ask if they call their country Holland or Netherlands. I always wanted to know that.

They call it both.

The country's official name is The Netherlands. People call it Holland as a large portion of it is taken up by the Counties North Holland and South Holland which is where the majority of the population live.
I asked one of the Dutch lads I know here who's from Breda and he says that Dutch people refer to it as Holland as well and it's not offensive or frowned upon etc.

[bennocelt]

Dutch were a shambles at times. If the Mexicans had had more belief they could have killed them on the counter, but they got too defensive and paid the price.

That Dutch team isn't anything special. Great attackers, even though Van Persie was invisible today. Robben still flinging himself to the ground.

Agreed, after they scored they did nothing. Dutch deserved it never gave up. Wasnt a peno in end but boy they deserved about 3 in that game overall.

[bennocelt]

They call it both.

The country's official name is The Netherlands. People call it Holland as a large portion of it is taken up by the Counties North Holland and South Holland which is where the majority of the population live.
I asked one of the Dutch lads I know here who's from Breda and he says that Dutch people refer to it as Holland as well and it's not offensive or frowned upon etc.

Depends where you live though, lived there for a while and they didnt call it Holland at all, Netherlands all the time.

[DannyInvincible]

These comparisons with street or workplace misdemeanours are just so silly.

What if Nigel de Jong had done what he did to Alonso on the street?

What if Keane had tackled Haaland on the street?

Pointless argument, and silly for newspapers to be entertaining it.

Why so silly exactly? The football field is a place of work too. Sure, football is played within a distinct context in the sense that it is governed by its own sub-legal framework. The general social/legal rules governing physical contact are relaxed and apply somewhat differently for reasons of participant consent and due to what might be reasonably expected from competitors by virtue of their physical engagement, but the game certainly does not exist in a parallel universe and if "sporting" conduct was ever to be considered unreasonable or inappropriate enough, there's no reason to assume the law of the land (tort and criminal liability) wouldn't apply. I'm not saying the law of the land should necessarily apply here; just making the point that the realms of sport and external life aren't so separate and exclusive from one another so as to render comparisons completely silly. If even just to provide a bit of perspective and to get an idea of how societal legislators might view such conduct generally in order to help ascertain whether or not the sporting punishment might be appropriate, I don't really see the great harm in making such comparisons.


The last thing I'll say about it is that this is... Im copying and pasting from Graham Hunter on Twitter yesterday, and he pretty much sums it up for me: Everyone supporting Suarez or excusing him just look at his alleged aberration of a defence. If true: cheat, liar, fraud. Deserves his ban

Not that I'm trying to excuse him, but you can see why he might deny it and sustain the charade. He's in a desperate situation and surrounded by back-slapping advisors clearly offering him frankly terrible advice. He's obviously deeply ashamed of what he's done and is trying to save face. You could tell by his body language after the final whistle went against Italy just how awfully regretful he was feeling deep down. He couldn't even bear to smile or celebrate his side getting out of the group. He was near tears of pain. I'd be reluctant to sum Suarez and the whole unfortunate episode up in half a tweet, but if Graham Hunter wants to do that, he's free to do so...


And Danny, ask the average Brazilian fan if they think Costa is 'Spanish'?
Realise he meets the 'eligibility' criteria but this residency thing is a ****** and we should all know this...as its potential to hit small countries is quite great.

Does it really matter what the average (and bitter) Brazilian fan thinks though? They can't dictate his nationality. To use a rough analogy, it might be like giving your average (and bitter) NI fan a say over James McClean's nationality. It's none of their business.

Which small countries have been suffering as a result of the residency clause?


How come they dont put some games on at night when its cooler?

They play them earlier to suit the European audience. That game started at 5PM here and the later one will kick off at 9PM.


Is Crosby on cocaine?

High-grade Mexican stuff, by the sound of it!

[DannyInvincible]

They call it both.

The country's official name is The Netherlands. People call it Holland as a large portion of it is taken up by the Counties North Holland and South Holland which is where the majority of the population live.
I asked one of the Dutch lads I know here who's from Breda and he says that Dutch people refer to it as Holland as well and it's not offensive or frowned upon etc.

I think they generally refer to the football team as Holland, but referring to, say, Utrecht as being in Holland (rather than, correctly, the Netherlands) would be a Dutch faux-pas, no? Wouldn't it be like referring to Glasgow as being in England (rather than, correctly, the UK, for now...) or something?

[Razors left peg]

Is Crosby on cocaine?
Was talkin to a buddy of mine over the weekend and he was tellin me a story about a time he was in Amsterdam and got so baked he temporarily lost the use of his legs.... I get the feeling thats called a Tuesday for Crosby !

[Stuttgart88]

You don't expect a pedestrian to kick you while you're browsing in a bookshop, you do expect a kick when you're playing football though. I'm led to believe the issue is duty of care. I think Haaland might have been able to mount a case against Keane, just as that Airdrie guy got Drunken Ferguson jailed for assault but Keane was lucky.

Anyway, I missed the post match debate. Any doubts over the penalty? I think it was a kick, a foul and a dive all in one. I'm generally ok with players making sure a refs knows it's a foul but the sheer theatre of Robben's fall, especially given his previous form, irritates me.

What was the RTE panel verdict?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Does it really matter what the average (and bitter) Brazilian fan thinks though? They can't dictate his nationality. To use a rough analogy, it might be like giving your average (and bitter) NI fan a say over James McClean's nationality. It's none of their business.
Hmm, McClean is Irish as we all know , ie. The GFA, CAS et al.

If Costa has any discernible Spanish heritage (besides his surname), am not otherwise convinced...


Which small countries have been suffering as a result of the residency clause?
Ireland!
Albeit the cricket team!
Yes, different rules apply, but exactly the same principle. Not just for Ireland, but any country where people emigrate to.
Give it time.

[NeverFeltBetter]

It was a foul for me, mixed with simulation after the fact. Just "making sure" as they say. The question we should ask if it it would have been given if Robben hadn't flopped.

[BonnieShels]

There was a tackle before the tackle that resulted in a penalty which was more of a foul. So I wouldn't be too harsh. He did overegg it though.

I also think I speak for all, Greece please go away.

It should be noted I'm fascinated by them as equally as I abhor them.

CR's final ball has been absent.

[Razors left peg]

It was a foul for me, mixed with simulation after the fact. Just "making sure" as they say. The question we should ask if it it would have been given if Robben hadn't flopped.

Can we please not start using flopped as a word to describe diving... The Americans do over here and it drives me mad!

[BonnieShels]

Can we please not start using flopped as a word to describe diving... The Americans do over here and it drives me mad!

Well... We are now at the half...

[DannyInvincible]

You don't expect a pedestrian to kick you while you're browsing in a bookshop, you do expect a kick when you're playing football though. I'm led to believe the issue is duty of care. I think Haaland might have been able to mount a case against Keane, just as that Airdrie guy got Drunken Ferguson jailed for assault but Keane was lucky.

Anyway, I missed the post match debate. Any doubts over the penalty? I think it was a kick, a foul and a dive all in one. I'm generally ok with players making sure a refs knows it's a foul but the sheer theatre of Robben's fall, especially given his previous form, irritates me.

What was the RTE panel verdict?

Not all forms of physical contact can be reasonably expected within the confines of a sporting contest though, so there has to be some point at which the law of the land will overlap or intervene, if you will, upon the occurence of something deemed serious or inappropriate enough.

I thought Robben manufactured what was minimal contact, but for someone so experienced, Marquez was certainly careless to allow himself be exploited like that. It was the type of positioning and tackle you'd put down to naivety in a younger player. I'd have to put it down to tiredness in Marquez given the heat and time of game. The general consensus amongst Fabio, Hoddle and O'Neill on ITV was that Robben was theatrical in going down. Martin couldn't believe Marquez was so reckless and could see why the ref gave it but Fabio was adamant it wasn't a penalty. Fabio does have what you might describe as a very traditional view of what constitutes a fair tackle, so had Marquez taken Robben's leg off, he might still have been unmoved.

Did anyone else notice some Greece supporters in the crowd wearing what looked like Amstel-sponsored replica jerseys? Are they one of the few other nations to sell jerseys with a sponsorship logo on them?

[NeverFeltBetter]

Can we please not start using flopped as a word to describe diving... The Americans do over here and it drives me mad!

I think its the best term for that particular kind of dive, where there's a jump in the air and a wriggling before they hit the ground.

Also I love The Guardian's description of Hellenic tactics tonight: The "Greece Death Shed"

[BonnieShels]

Did anyone else notice some Greece supporters in the crowd wearing what looked like Amstel-sponsored replica jerseys? Are they one of the few other nations to sell jerseys with a sponsorship logo on them?

Yes. I've seen Greek jersies with sponsors before at games.

I've also seen Argentina shirts with Coca Cola on them and Dutch ones with ING on them.

I don't know their provenance but none of those three have ever had sponsors on shirts sold in Ireland or Britain that I've seen. The unique situation we have in Ireland seems to be one where you can't get sponsor less shirts anywhere.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Greek keeper decided very quickly he wasn't going to bother with that one.

[BonnieShels]

It was smack in the bottom corner. It was unlikely he would have.

[BonnieShels]

This referee has been very whistle happy.

Sending off was harsh.

[NeverFeltBetter]

It was not a fast shot by any means. He could have had a go.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yes. I've seen Greek jersies with sponsors before at games.

I've also seen Argentina shirts with Coca Cola on them and Dutch ones with ING on them.

I don't know their provenance but none of those three have ever had sponsors on shirts sold in Ireland or Britain that I've seen. The unique situation we have in Ireland seems to be one where you can't get sponsor less shirts anywhere.
The merchandise thing is of passing interest, but more pertinently, have any of those three ever played in them?

[BonnieShels]

The merchandise thing is of passing interest, but more pertinently, have any of those three ever played in them?
I doubt it.

We played in Opel shirts for Dave O'Leary's testimonial vs Hungary.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Greeks seem weirdly happy to converse with the ref over a free for half a minute, even though they're a goal down and a man up in a knockout game.

[DannyInvincible]

Greeks seem weirdly happy to converse with the ref over a free for half a minute, even though they're a goal down and a man up in a knockout game.

It's doing something at least, I guess.