2014 World Cup

[ArdeeBhoy]

Greeks seem weirdly happy to converse with the ref over a free for half a minute, even though they're a goal down and a man up in a knockout game.

Same old Hellas...

[DannyInvincible]

Hmm, McClean is Irish as we all know , ie. The GFA, CAS et al.

If Costa has any discernible Spanish heritage (besides his surname), am not otherwise convinced...

But if anyone is in doubt as to Costa's nationality, he can produce for them as evidence his Spanish passport. Just like how we know McClean is an Irish national by virtue of his Irish passport. Costa has Spanish nationality by way of Spanish nationality law just as McClean is an Irish national under Irish nationality law. The matter of whether or not Costa has Spanish heritage isn't all that relevant, so long as he has satisfied some other criterion to meet eligibility for Spanish citizenship. If Spain employed a purely ethnic-based citizenship policy, his heritage might be relevant, but Spain exercises a civic sense of nationalism, as far as I can see.


Ireland!
Albeit the cricket team!
Yes, different rules apply, but exactly the same principle. Not just for Ireland, but any country where people emigrate to.
Give it time.

It's had time though. Not sure what the rules are for Cricket, but the residency rule has been in place in some form or another in football for decades. How many years of residency are required in Cricket before a player can opt to play for his new country? I'm not sure who's lost out in football though without examples. A footballer must be based in a country for five years after the age of 18 to become eligible for his new host nation; that gives the association of his homeland an opportunity of at least five years to select him if they wish. I don't know of any footballer who has persistently declined invites to join up with his national association for five years before attaining a new nationality and then deciding to play for the representative association of his new country.

[Crosby87]

They are making a sequel to "My Big Fat Greek Wedding." I worked on a book with Nia Vardalos, about her and her husband adopting their daughter. So I'm rooting for Greece. She is Canadian like SkStu though, FYI.

Here is a good prop bet for the US game. Over Under Belgium shots on goal 7. Over right?

[BonnieShels]

Livid. Just hurt my hand punching the table.

[DannyInvincible]

I know this must be very difficult time for you, Bonnie. Commiserations.

[Razors left peg]

Livid. Just hurt my hand punching the table.

Feel your pain, broke my hand when Aguero got the League winning goal for City few years ago :drunk::drunk:

[BonnieShels]

I take things to heart. A tad.

[ArdeeBhoy]

But if anyone is in doubt as to Costa's nationality, he can produce for them as evidence his Spanish passport. Just like how we know McClean is an Irish national by virtue of his Irish passport. Costa has Spanish nationality by way of Spanish nationality law just as McClean is an Irish national under Irish nationality law. The matter of whether or not Costa has Spanish heritage isn't all that relevant, so long as he has satisfied some other criterion to meet eligibility for Spanish citizenship. If Spain employed a purely ethnic-based citizenship policy, his heritage might be relevant, but Spain exercises a civic sense of nationalism, as far as I can see.



It's had time though. Not sure what the rules are for Cricket, but the residency rule has been in place in some form or another in football for decades. How many years of residency are required in Cricket before a player can opt to play for his new country? I'm not sure who's lost out in football though without examples. A footballer must be based in a country for five years after the age of 18 to become eligible for his new host nation; that gives the association of his homeland an opportunity of at least five years to select him if they wish. I don't know of any footballer who has persistently declined invites to join up with his national association for five years before attaining a new nationality and then deciding to play for the representative association of his new country.

He's also got a right to Brazilian citizenship too unless it's been revoked. Though heard he'd rejected it?
But going to agree to differ with you on this one. I bow to your superior knowledge.

But still doesn't make it morally right, in any sport. Birthplace/heritage back to grand-parents works for me. Residency qualification is a very very bad idea though.
If in doubt ask all the South Sea Islanders who're rugby fans too. They've suffered by far the most.

[DannyInvincible]

I hope you don't mind, Bonnie, but I'm kind of delighted. :o I love the tension of extra-time and a potential shoot-out. It's only right as well after Robben's antics deprived us earlier.

There's something I really admire about Greece, to be honest. They continue to do (with relative success) what we could only ever dream of doing under Trap.

Dunno if Costa Rica will have the resolve to see this through after conceding so late on. It's such a psychological blow. The keeper looked like he needed a physical and mental break there.

[Stuttgart88]

Danny, do you actually get to see any of the football, as you type so much?

Back to our earlier exchange: I think duty of care is the key. It's what differentiates acceptable physicality and assault.

Good second half after a dull first half. I can't see Costa Rica doing anything other than trying to hang on. They look dead on their feet. After the restart for the equaliser it looked like Greece were happy to just tap it about until Costa Rica retreated and have them no option to attack. Greece just has no innate attacking instinct!

Good fun though. I'm not really fussed how it pans out to be honest.

[BonnieShels]

I really admire Greece.

But I really hate them.

Can't see CR pulling through now.

[bennocelt]

Feck it I wanted to go to bed, have to be up at 6.30, damn:mad:

[Stuttgart88]

He's also got a right to Brazilian citizenship too unless it's been revoked. Though heard he'd rejected it?
But going to agree to differ with you on this one. I bow to your superior knowledge.

But still doesn't make it morally right, in any sport. Birthplace/heritage back to grand-parents works for me. Residency qualification is a very very bad idea though.
If in doubt ask all the South Sea Islanders who're rugby fans too. They've suffered by far the most.i agree, and what's worse is that the beneficiaries can only be those countries that can offer a good living by virtue of having good pro teams. Ireland is an especially odd case as the union can encourage its subsidiaries, sorry, provinces, to hire a player it feels it has a strategic need to select in the near future.

[BonnieShels]

Feck it I wanted to go to bed, have to be up at 6.30, damn:mad:

Thank God for EDT

[osarusan]

Costa Rica are beyond exhausted.

[BonnieShels]

Just like most watching this.

[DannyInvincible]

Feck it I wanted to go to bed, have to be up at 6.30, damn:mad:

I have to be up at 6 myself!

[osarusan]

7.30am here.

The games kick off at either 1, 4, 5, or 7am for the whole tournament.

Worst times possible.

[DannyInvincible]

Danny, do you actually get to see any of the football, as you type so much?

I've got everything on the one screen. And I've been told I've got the fastest hands in Manchester! :p


Greece just has no innate attacking instinct!

Just showed there with the five on two.

[BonnieShels]

7.30am here.

The games kick off at either 1, 4, 5, or 7am for the whole tournament.

Worst times possible.

Were you there in 2002?

[osarusan]

Indeed I was.

[DannyInvincible]

7.30am here.

The games kick off at either 1, 4, 5, or 7am for the whole tournament.

Worst times possible.

Awful times.

Greece will be livid if they lose this having (so far) failed to take advantage of the extra man and Costa Rica's severe lack of stamina.

[bennocelt]

Phew that reminded me of Ireland V Holland, I mean Netherlands, how the hell did they hang on...........:D Surely they cant win the penos, they are too jacked

[NeverFeltBetter]

That 5 on 2 break - Greece literally didn't know what to do with such an advantage. But what were Costa Rica playing at, throwing so many forward in their position? There's having a go and there's playing stupid.

[BonnieShels]

Indeed I was.
How was that?

[DannyInvincible]

That 5 on 2 break - Greece literally didn't know what to do with such an advantage. But what were Costa Rica playing at, throwing so many forward in their position? There's having a go and there's playing stupid.

Like us versus Italy in Croke Park after St. Ledger's goal. Lost the head.

It was unusual. They hadn't a man in front of the ball when they were trying to hold on to the lead towards the end of 90 minutes.

[BonnieShels]

Phew that reminded me of Ireland V Holland, I mean Netherlands, how the hell did they hang on...........:D Surely they cant win the penos, they are too jacked

I felt sick when Metroglu had that chance.

Big Costa Rican gang here. No Greeks. Thank god I'm not in Toronto.

Hon the Rico's!

[NeverFeltBetter]

This is Costa Rica's all the way. Navas is one of the best keepers in the tournament.

[BonnieShels]

Yeah. This World Cup is just ridiculous.

[bennocelt]

get in YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS Costa Rica are still in the World Cup

[DannyInvincible]

Some excellent penalties. Great viewing.

[BonnieShels]

Better result. The QF are shaping up nicely.

[DannyInvincible]

He's also got a right to Brazilian citizenship too unless it's been revoked. Though heard he'd rejected it?
But going to agree to differ with you on this one. I bow to your superior knowledge.

I don't know a great deal about Costa, to be honest. All I know is that he would have been born a Brazilian national. He then acquired Spanish citizenship, so he now possesses dual nationality, unless he has relinquished his Brazilian citizenship or either of Spain or Brazil deny their citizens the right to hold simultaneously the nationality of another country. I don't see why Brazil would have revoked his citizenship under any other circumstances.


But still doesn't make it morally right, in any sport. Birthplace/heritage back to grand-parents works for me. Residency qualification is a very very bad idea though.
If in doubt ask all the South Sea Islanders who're rugby fans too. They've suffered by far the most.

Why would it be immoral though? Its existence and reasoning simply follows the lead of a universally popular general principle of civic nationality law; that broadly being the right to become a member of a new nation and enjoy the rights and responsibilities accorded to its citizens upon the fulfillment of a certain period of time spent within its territory and a contribution to its civic life. It would seem that most people think it a good thing. I think it's a positive thing myself. Acquiring a new nationality is essentially the new citizen's initiation into his new family.

If residency qualification in sport is primarily based upon nationality, I don't see the major issue. If a player can play for a country simply on residency grounds without possessing that country's nationality, I'd possibly take issue with that. I've not really had to worry about it though, as it's not the case in football. The residency requirement in football seems sufficient to me. Maybe it is the case in other sports like cricket and rugby though?

Right, I have to be up early in the morn, so I best be off to get some sleep. What a World Cup it's been so far. G'night!

[Stuttgart88]

This is Costa Rica's all the way. Navas is one of the best keepers in the tournament.
Nonsense, he's by far the best. Mexican dude has great reflexes but Navas has the lot.

[Stuttgart88]

Breaking News: Ottawa police have been called in to restrain a hirsute young man from Dublin behaving in a loud and irrational manner outside a Greek restaurant shouting "you might have invented democracy and plain yoghurt but you're going home you boring cnuts". Neighbours have said he's usually very calm and polite and just seems to spend a lot of time on the internet, and has a particular interest in talking about shells.

[BonnieShels]

Breaking News: Ottawa police have been called in to restrain a hirsute young man from Dublin behaving in a loud and irrational manner outside a Greek restaurant shouting "you might have invented democracy and plain yoghurt but you're going home you boring cnuts". Neighbours have said he's usually very calm and polite and just seems to spend a lot of time on the internet, and has a particular interest in talking about shells.

I got a polite talking to and a lift home. The RCMP aren't a bad sort.

Thank God the city police didn't get wind. They're currently engaged outside of a gyro joint in the Byward Market.

Seems there's a row between the Greeks and the Turks over who gets naming rights.

We all know it was Zaytoons. Ssssssh.

[osarusan]

Why so silly exactly? The football field is a place of work too. Sure, football is played within a distinct context in the sense that it is governed by its own sub-legal framework. The general social/legal rules governing physical contact are relaxed and apply somewhat differently for reasons of participant consent and due to what might be reasonably expected from competitors by virtue of their physical engagement, but the game certainly does not exist in a parallel universe and if "sporting" conduct was ever to be considered unreasonable or inappropriate enough, there's no reason to assume the law of the land (tort and criminal liability) wouldn't apply. I'm not saying the law of the land should necessarily apply here; just making the point that the realms of sport and external life aren't so separate and exclusive from one another so as to render comparisons completely silly. If even just to provide a bit of perspective and to get an idea of how societal legislators might view such conduct generally in order to help ascertain whether or not the sporting punishment might be appropriate, I don't really see the great harm in making such comparisons.

There's no harm in the comparisons, sure, but they certainly don't shed any light on anything either.

Let's extend the argument a bit further:

What if some lad was running for his bus and another person on the street flicked out a leg to trip him up?

What if Wayne Rooney elbowed somebody in the head on the street like he elbowed McCarthy a couple of years ago?

What if Juan Manuel Marquez had punched somebody on the street like he punched (and knocked out cold) Manny Pacquiao a couple of years ago?

How would/should the law of the land be applied to them?

Sport has existed in something close to a vacuum since basically forever. Even the most innocuous of tackles on a football pitch is punishable by the law of the land. However, instances of the actual law of the land being applied to what happens on the field are few and far between, and even when they are (Cantona attack on a fan), they can be fairly lenient compared to what might have happened outside the sphere of sports.

Put it this way - if Rooney doesn't get in any legal trouble for stamping on a player's balls, or Roy Keane, for elbowing a player in the head, or Pepe, for repeatedly kicking a player in a prone position on the ground, I don't think that what Suarez did registers high on the scale of what needs to be punished by the law of the land.

So when I read commentators making the argument that he would be facing a real punishment if it had happened outside the sphere of sports (and that he should consider himself lucky really), all I think is that they are deliberately ignoring the fact that sports stars have been getting away with what is effectively criminal behaviour, and often much worse behaviour, for decades.

[osarusan]

How was that?

Great. Great to be there for it and see how excited the whole country was. I can only imagine that it was even better in Korea.

I have two abiding memories of that tournament:

The first is after Ecuador beat Croatia,and as all the fans (from both sides) were leaving together, they were singing and dancing and there was a really good atmosphere. Somebody had a beachball or something similar, and it was being punched into the air, and when it came down again, whoever was under it would punch it back up, and again and again. The suddenly a Japanese security staff came over and took the ball away. I thought to myself, 'what a ******.'

The second is going to work the day after we got knocked out by Spain. Even though I had, to my mind at least, made a conscious effort not to talk about football too much, I had students coming up to me all day long to shake my hand and commiserate with me. It was like I'd been one of the players, or lost a family member or something.

[BonnieShels]

Great. Great to be there for it and see how excited the whole country was. I can only imagine that it was even better in Korea.

I have two abiding memories of that tournament:

The first is after Ecuador beat Croatia,and as all the fans (from both sides) were leaving together, they were singing and dancing and there was a really good atmosphere. Somebody had a beachball or something similar, and it was being punched into the air, and when it came down again, whoever was under it would punch it back up, and again and again. The suddenly a Japanese security staff came over and took the ball away. I thought to myself, 'what a ******.'

The second is going to work the day after we got knocked out by Spain. Even though I had, to my mind at least, made a conscious effort not to talk about football too much, I had students coming up to me all day long to shake my hand and commiserate with me. It was like I'd been one of the players, or lost a family member or something.

Well you did lose Ian Harte that day. Le sigh.

Your comments re ECU-CRO echo mine from Euro12.

On the way into the centre of Poznan to meet Stutts I happened across this group of Croatians. Massive massive men. Jumped on one of their shoulders and called them bastarbs and we proceeded to hug it out and have a laugh the whole way onto town.

Nothing like a football tournament to bring out the joy even in loss. Unless you're English in the good old days.

Though it should be said, Croatians are mighty craic altogether.

[ArdeeBhoy]

If a player can play for a country simply on residency grounds without possessing that country's nationality, I'd possibly take issue with that. I've not really had to worry about it though, as it's not the case in football. The residency requirement in football seems sufficient to me. Maybe it is the case in other sports like cricket and rugby though?

That in essence is what it's about. Or allowing the likes of Zola Budd on a far greater scale.
The NZ rugby teams have been raping their 'relative' neighbours of players, they don't essentially even need, for years now...

[ArdeeBhoy]

How was that?

A great experience. Never been anywhere so organised and efficient with such friendly people where everything worked.
Even Singapore was a kip by comparison afterwards.

[geysir]

It was a foul for me, mixed with simulation after the fact. Just "making sure" as they say. The question we should ask if it it would have been given if Robben hadn't flopped.
How would we know if it was a foul?
Just touching a player in the box doesn't mean it's a penalty or leaving a foot out. There is no entitlement either for a player to turn a bit of contact into a foul, no matter how many times Shearer says it does.
That late contact on Robben had to be careless and with sufficient force to trip him.
It was a bit careless but was it enough to trip him? It looked very tame to me.
When there was so much obvious simulation involved, the ref should have ignored the penalty claim, as he couldn't possibly be expected to decide if it was a careless trip.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Thing is think he was making up for previous more legitimate incidents he missed.
And yes, it is Robben. Who usually lives up to part of his name by 'diving'. But this time the law of averages worked in his favour.

[OwlsFan]

I wonder why so few goals are being scored from direct free kicks. Messi and...

Mexican manager giving out about the referee. He should get a job in the Premiership. Perhaps if his team had tried to get a second instead of sitting back and defending their lead it might have ended better for him and his side. Better team won.

Thought the Greeks were better than Costa Rica even before the sending off. Justice was done though because they might have had a peno for handball when 1-0. Interesting that no one really noticed it until the replay although there was a half hearted appeal by Campbell I think. Set the timer on Horizon to tape extra time and the bugg+r ran out before the penalty shoot-out. Second time that has happened to me. Luckily the highlights were on the BEEP this am.

[DannyInvincible]

Strangely, Robben admitted to diving in an earlier incident. It was clear he dived to win the penalty too, although no admission was forthcoming in relation to that.


There's no harm in the comparisons, sure, but they certainly don't shed any light on anything either.

Let's extend the argument a bit further:

What if some lad was running for his bus and another person on the street flicked out a leg to trip him up?

What if Wayne Rooney elbowed somebody in the head on the street like he elbowed McCarthy a couple of years ago?

What if Juan Manuel Marquez had punched somebody on the street like he punched (and knocked out cold) Manny Pacquiao a couple of years ago?

How would/should the law of the land be applied to them?

Sport has existed in something close to a vacuum since basically forever. Even the most innocuous of tackles on a football pitch is punishable by the law of the land. However, instances of the actual law of the land being applied to what happens on the field are few and far between, and even when they are (Cantona attack on a fan), they can be fairly lenient compared to what might have happened outside the sphere of sports.

Put it this way - if Rooney doesn't get in any legal trouble for stamping on a player's balls, or Roy Keane, for elbowing a player in the head, or Pepe, for repeatedly kicking a player in a prone position on the ground, I don't think that what Suarez did registers high on the scale of what needs to be punished by the law of the land.

So when I read commentators making the argument that he would be facing a real punishment if it had happened outside the sphere of sports (and that he should consider himself lucky really), all I think is that they are deliberately ignoring the fact that sports stars have been getting away with what is effectively criminal behaviour, and often much worse behaviour, for decades.

Did you skim through the article? :p

All that is true and I'm aware of what you might call the special status afforded to sport under the law due to its physical nature and the assumed consent of competitors by their participation. The expectation would be that conduct on the sports field might receive a harsher punishment if it were executed off the sports field. That's exactly why I quoted the article though. I've been arguing that Suarez's punishment is rather draconian, all things considered. Unusually, the Guardian piece was suggesting (assuming I interpreted it correctly) that Suarez might have received an arguably more lenient punishment had he bitten Chiellini on the street, even if he had actually caused lasting damage, which he hadn't. Biting someone on the street wouldn't have (potentially) prevented him from making a living for anything near a period of four months.

[DannyInvincible]

I wonder why so few goals are being scored from direct free kicks. Messi and...

Dzemaili for Switzerland with a low one drilled in from distance against France.

I think that's been it; just the two so far.

[DannyInvincible]

Out of interest, anyone know if Robben can be retrospectively punished for diving, seeing as he has admitted to it? He's a complete blaggard.

[Charlie Darwin]

Out of interest, anyone know if Robben can be retrospectively punished for diving, seeing as he has admitted to it? He's a complete blaggard.
He didn't say he dived to con the ref, he said he dived because he expected contact and the player pulled his leg away. The penalty was clearly a penalty and in no way a dive. I don't think anyone would dispute that apart from the Mexican coach, who has become the latest coach to blame a very good refereeing performance for his own team's failure.

[osarusan]

Strangely, Robben admitted to diving in an earlier incident. It was clear he dived to win the penalty too, although no admission was forthcoming in relation to that.



Did you skim through the article? :p

.

Guilty as charged. I assumed it was another piece of faux outrage.


Out of interest, anyone know if Robben can be retrospectively punished for diving, seeing as he has admitted to it? He's a complete blaggard.

I was wondering that too. Especially in the light of Claudio Sulser's words when banning Suarez: 'Such behaviour cannot be tolerated on any football pitch, and in particular not at a Fifa World Cup when the eyes of millions of people are on the stars on the field.'

[Stuttgart88]

One of my favourite football tournament memories is meeting a bunch of very large Croats in Poznan who had run out of money. I offered them 200euros to go over to the bloke in the orange Termonbarry Alberts t- shirt and to keep him occupied while I had a chance to enjoy my beers and mourn our defeat uninterrupted by incessant yapping about everything and anything that came into his head. I said they'd only get paid on condition they were friendly, let him climb on their shoulders even, and didn't thump him because that'd have made me feel bad.