2014 World Cup

[osarusan]

It looked to me like two teams that didn't fancy their chances of coming back from a goal down, and played accordingly.

[DannyInvincible]

And so it becomes abundantly clear why Van Gaal threw Krul on against Costa Rica.

[Stuttgart88]

Yeah, I'm all for a Dutch WC win given what they have given world football and given how it'd be a right kick in the teeth for mega money big country leagues, but still I am glad Argentina went through.

You can see why Cillesen has never saved a penalty.

I love the Argentina coach's quote from ages back: I'd be happy to win a game half nil.

At least he's honest.

[BonnieShels]

And so it becomes abundantly clear why Van Gaal threw Krul on against Costa Rica.

But it's not clear why they did't put him on here or why Vlaar took the first.

[Stuttgart88]

At least we won't have to listen to a decade of drooling over LVG's tactical genius. Dublin 2001 anyone?

[NeverFeltBetter]

Van Gaal decided to make a tactical sub right at the start of the first, which meant he probably would not have the leeway to put Krul in with another 75 minutes to play. He trusted in his first choice keeper and his kickers. Didn't work out. These things happen.

RTE Player crashed in the middle of the shoot-out. Would not restart. Absolutely raging.

[bennocelt]

Delighted for the Dutch, set up to defend first rather than attack, wasted chance, tut tut van Gaal

[DannyInvincible]

But it's not clear why they did't put him on here or why Vlaar took the first.

Holland had used up their three substitutions after they replaced Van Persie with Huntelaar.

Dunno why Vlaar was sent up, mind!

[gastric]

But it's not clear why they did't put him on here or why Vlaar took the first.

LVG's arrogance?

[NeverFeltBetter]

Jesus lads, relax. Maybe Vlaar just volunteered when no one else would?

[DannyInvincible]

I don't know (http://foot.ie/threads/190614-2014-World-Cup?p=1762547&highlight=punch#post1762547). :)

Though this (http://foot.ie/threads/190614-2014-World-Cup?p=1762555&highlight=punch#post1762555) is more the one I was thinking of.

Maybe I've taken ye up wrong. Or even, with the passage of time, misrepresented ye in the post above. If so, apologies. I think the posts were in reply to my own giving out about the lack of catching, so I assumed ye were taking up a contrary position to my own.

But I still think catching has to be the first choice whenever possible, and there's been too many keepers in this tournament happy to parry when they could have caught. Iran for one have paid a heavy price for that. That's not anglophilia or GAA influence - it's just good goalkeeping.

Hehe, I don't think I was quite suggesting punching was preferable to catching. I was just wondering why there's such a seeming abhorrence to punching in the Anglosphere. I'd agree with you in that a catch is to be favoured, but a good punch can also have its place. Casillas has been a frequent puncher throughout his career and he's consistently been one of the best keepers of our age. (Just don't mention that one he punched to Sanchez this World Cup! :p )

[NeverFeltBetter]

3rd/4th Place Play Off is usually a decent enough game- I still think the 2010 version was the best game of that tournament - but I have a feeling Saturday's game will be fairly depressing. Maybe its better when it includes a team that no one thought would get that far (Croatia in 98, S. Korea in 02, Germany in 06, etc).

[BonnieShels]

Holland had used up their three substitutions after they replaced Van Persie with Huntelaar.

Dunno why Vlaar was sent up, mind!

I know the logistics of why but let's look back instead of making that sub, maybe leave RVP on...


LVG's arrogance?

Nah.


Jesus lads, relax. Maybe Vlaar just volunteered when no one else would?

I dunno. seems odd. I know that it's happened in the past (A certain occasion in Genoa comes to mind) but for a team that successfully dispatched another under the same circumstances in the last round; for no one else to choose to go first seems unlikely to me to be honest.

[OwlsFan]

This Krul thing is a red herring. I have a Geordie friend who says he is a terrible penalty stopper and lightening very rarely strikes twice anyway. Van Gaal knew that. The trouble is the Dutch missed two penalties. They have a penalty shoot out record almost as bad as England's. As I said in the second Costa Rican penalty shoot out, to ask players to do it in two consecutive games to the same standard is asking an awful lot. The funny thing, the one Dutchman who I was sure would miss, scored: Kuyt.

So on we go to Europe v South America as it should be and hopefully the Argentinians can continue to defend as well and for the magician to score the wonder goal the tournament awaits from him.

[geysir]

I enjoyed that semi final from start to finish. That was one intense game and it was refreshing to see players bawl their eyes out in response to getting through to the final, not to mention their fans, stuff the european reserve. I thought it had some import that at the end of normal time the Argentine team got together in a circle and had a real emotional pow wow with their coach in the middle, whereas the Dutch hung around in small groups, or on their own.

Tough on the Dutch no doubt, that will hurt deep and for a long time, there was little between the teams until the shoot out, though I just thought Argentina were that bit more together and they had Messi.

Germany have a 50/50 chance to win their first world cup.

[NeverFeltBetter]

RVP wasn't at his best, clearly. No way he would have been effective if left on. Sometimes you just run out of subs.

Vlaar had a great game, maybe he just felt confident and volunteered.

[BonnieShels]

I enjoyed that semi final from start to finish. That was one intense game and it was refreshing to see players bawl their eyes out in response to getting through to the final, not to mention their fans, stuff the European reserve. I thought it had some import that at the end of normal time the Argentine team got together in a circle and had a real emotional pow wow with their coach in the middle, whereas the Dutch hung around in small groups, or on their own.

It's easy to have a pow-wow when ya get to a final. Not so easy to do so when your tournament comes crashing down after being so close to final and after losing 4 years before.

I'm sure if anyone came up to me in that circumstance of losing I would have clocked him. I will still never know how Dickie D never broke Henry in two!


Tough on the Dutch no doubt, that will hurt deep and for a long time, there was little between the teams until the shoot out, though I just thought Argentina were that bit more together and they had Messi.

It was a 50/50 game. If Robben wasn't such a selfish ass the Dutch would be in the final. Messi was poor in the second half of normal time.


Germany have a 50/50 chance to win their first world cup.

Ooooooooooooh. Controversial.

In truth the DFB are the ones who have won the previous 3 world cups and as they still exist they could win a 4th on Sunday.

The DFV were subsumed into the DFB in 1990 as the Nordostdeutscher Fußball-Verband.



RVP wasn't at his best, clearly. No way he would have been effective if left on. Sometimes you just run out of subs.

Vlaar had a great game, maybe he just felt confident and volunteered.

You could be right. Just seemed odd on the face of it is all.

[osarusan]

It's easy to have a pow-wow when ya get to a final. Not so easy to do so when your tournament comes crashing down after being so close to final and after losing 4 years before.

I think Geysir is talking about the groups both teams formed between normal time and extra time.


I thought we saw the other side of the Krul substitution tonight - all the stuff said about Krul and the explanation could have backfired, with the Argentinians feeling more confident against a keeper who would have known he wasn't the first choice.

[DannyInvincible]

I thought we saw the other side of the Krul substitution tonight - all the stuff said about Krul and the explanation could have backfired, with the Argentinians feeling more confident against a keeper who would have known he wasn't the first choice.

Definitely. I sensed that myself.

[BonnieShels]

I thought we saw the other side of the Krul substitution tonight - all the stuff said about Krul and the explanation could have backfired, with the Argentinians feeling more confident against a keeper who would have known he wasn't the first choice.


Definitely. I sensed that myself.

Yeah. There was a bang of that off it alright.

[BonnieShels]

Seems that a couple of players bottled it and Vlaar was the men to step up.


Netherlands coach Louis van Gaal says two of his players refused to take the first penalty in their World Cup semi-final shootout defeat by Argentina.
Defender Ron Vlaar stepped up but Sergio Romero saved his kick. Argentina went on to win the shootout 4-2 and will face Germany in Sunday's final.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/28240152

[BonnieShels]

The sociopath inside me couldn't help but smile at every one of these:

http://sadbrazilians.tumblr.com/


The soccer lover inside me couldn't help but smile at every one of these:

http://sadbrazilians.tumblr.com/


The b4stard inside me guffawed at every one of these:

http://sadbrazilians.tumblr.com/



Every single time I see that SF score I actually grin to myself.

BRAZIL 1-7 GERMANY

Heh heh.

[Gather round]

The DFV were subsumed into the DFB in 1990 as the Nordostdeutscher Fußball-Verband

Subsume the Nordost, win the World Cup? (Even if it takes another 24 years?)

[BonnieShels]

Subsume the Nordost, win the World Cup? (Even if it takes another 24 years?)

Sure aren't we poaching from the Nordost as it is.

[Stuttgart88]

I think Geysir is talking about the groups both teams formed between normal time and extra time.


I thought we saw the other side of the Krul substitution tonight - all the stuff said about Krul and the explanation could have backfired, with the Argentinians feeling more confident against a keeper who would have known he wasn't the first choice.
Martin O'Neill and Lee Dixon had a disagreement on ITV last night. MON said that the Costa Rican affair would have put some extra pressure on Cillesen. Dixon said no, it's always a no-lose situation for a keeper, he can only be the hero never the villain. I think MON called it right though, I think there was pressure on Cillesen and pressure + doubt slows the reactions. He could well have saved two of those last night.

If LVG had a spare sub to use last night he should have brought on Worm! That'd have got inside Argentina's heads and Worm is a good penalty saver.

(Is that his name, the Swansea guy?)

[osarusan]

Martin O'Neill and Lee Dixon had a disagreement on ITV last night. MON said that the Costa Rican affair would have put some extra pressure on Cillesen. Dixon said no, it's always a no-lose situation for a keeper, he can only be the hero never the villain. I think MON called it right though, I think there was pressure on Cillesen and pressure + doubt slows the reactions. He could well have saved two of those last night.

If LVG had a spare sub to use last night he should have brought on Worm! That'd have got inside Argentina's heads and Worm is a good penalty saver.

(Is that his name, the Swansea guy?)

More than anything else, it might leave Cillesen thinking that others are wondering what might have been had Krul been in goals for the shootout. That would be very unfair on a keeper.

(Vorm, i think it is)

[A N Mouse]

I don't know (http://foot.ie/threads/190614-2014-World-Cup?p=1762547&highlight=punch#post1762547). :)

Though this (http://foot.ie/threads/190614-2014-World-Cup?p=1762555&highlight=punch#post1762555) is more the one I was thinking of.

Maybe I've taken ye up wrong. Or even, with the passage of time, misrepresented ye in the post above. If so, apologies. I think the posts were in reply to my own giving out about the lack of catching, so I assumed ye were taking up a contrary position to my own.

But I still think catching has to be the first choice whenever possible, and there's been too many keepers in this tournament happy to parry when they could have caught. Iran for one have paid a heavy price for that. That's not anglophilia or GAA influence - it's just good goalkeeping.

No problem, I think we're broadly on the same page - I just have a bugbear with commentators, and several comments in the thread reminded me of it.

I wasn't necessarily being contrary. I think you echoed my original sentiments, though perhaps we would disagree on the perceived amount of punching relative to other tournaments.

I left one word out of that, which may have given more context; when referring to anglosphere I meant media (specifically tv commentators). It irks me when lazy commentators say 'he could/should have caught that'.

I agree with Danny, that if you've listened to these guys long enough, then you'd get the impression that punching is only something those continental types do, because they are inferior and incapable of catching the thing (must be why so many of them play in "the best league in the world"). Unless there specific statistics to back it up, the claims of a preponderance of punching are just the biennial blooming of this particular fallacy.

These things should be taken on merit, if a keeper opts to punch when perhaps he could have caught it - it doesn't automatically become a poor decision; it becomes a bad decision through poor execution, or if it leads directly to a goal. Similarly if a keeper opts to catch, it's not automatically a good decision; it only becomes one if properly executed.

Sure there are times when you wonder why did they do that. But not every instance of 'not catching the thing' should be filed under poor play.

(not explicitly punching, more example of perceived lazy commentary)
Take Tim Howard - think it was against Belgium at one point he dived backwards and pushed the ball over the bar for a corner. One commentator claimed he had time to get his feet right to catch the ball. So according to this guy three steps backwards and to the side, catch the ball on the line, while your momentum is taking you towards goal and opposition within ten yards was preferable to conceding a corner. Really? With a place in the quarter finals of the world cup at stake?

[KK77]

y y
This Krul thing is a red herring. I have a Geordie friend who says he is a terrible penalty stopper and lightening very rarely strikes twice anyway. Van Gaal knew that. The trouble is the Dutch missed two penalties. They have a penalty shoot out record almost as bad as England's. As I said in the second Costa Rican penalty shoot out, to ask players to do it in two consecutive games to the same standard is asking an awful lot. The funny thing, the one Dutchman who I was sure would miss, scored: Kuyt.

So on we go to Europe v South America as it should be and hopefully the Argentinians can continue to defend as well and for the magician to score the wonder goal the tournament awaits from him.

The funny thing is the one player i was sure would score, scored: Kuyt. His record from the spot is brilliant.

[Stuttgart88]

A good catch is better than a good punch. A good punch is better than a bad catch.

I still don't know what Shay was thinking for the David Silva goal in Gdansk. As I've said here before I saw him practicing punching routine catchable shots in his extended warm up 30 mins before the game.

[Closed Account 2]

Seems that a couple of players bottled it and Vlaar was the men to step up.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/28240152

So much for Dutch courage, eh?

[A N Mouse]

A good catch is better than a good punch. A good punch is better than a bad catch.

I still don't know what Shay was thinking for the David Silva goal in Gdansk. As I've said here before I saw him practicing punching routine catchable shots in his extended warm up 30 mins before the game.

Agreed. Though, at the risk of opening another can of worms, margins of better/worse would depend on what you do after you catch it. Lump it to far end of field to be contested as a fifty-fifty, or build up from the back? :D

[pineapple stu]

These things should be taken on merit, if a keeper opts to punch when perhaps he could have caught it - it doesn't automatically become a poor decision; it becomes a bad decision through poor execution, or if it leads directly to a goal. Similarly if a keeper opts to catch, it's not automatically a good decision; it only becomes one if properly executed.
This is true. There are absolutely times to punch. Stutts mentioned Shay; I remember him punching everything against Saudi Arabia in 2002, but it was lashing rain and the ball was greasy. Fair enough.

Last night, there was a corner that was right down Romero's throat. He punched and even as the commentators were saying it was a good punch, Holland had retrieved the ball and were lining up another cross. He punched that one too, and Holland got another cross in. Ridiculous stuff.

Compare that to Cillesen, who pulled off a very nice save in particular from Messi's free kick. Held it; attack over. Such a big difference to parrying out for a corner.

I think what annoys me is that parrying tends to look like the save was more difficult, and commentators buy into it, when often (absolutely not always) it's actually a sign of worse technique.

[DannyInvincible]

After the game, Van Gaal said of Argentina's keeper Romero, who played under him at AZ Alkmaar between 2007 (aged 20) and 2009:


I taught Romero how to stop penalties, so that hurts.

Is he Roddy Collins in disguise?

[osarusan]

After the game, Van Gaal said of Argentina's keeper Romero, who played under him at AZ Alkmaar between 2007 (aged 20) and 2009:



Is he Roddy Collins in disguise?

Yeah, I saw that on the BBC. I've read elsewhere that Van Gaal is a very arrogant guy - this would be an example of that.

I also saw on the BBC that Messi didn't touch the ball once in the Dutch penalty area in the entire 120 minutes. That's incredible really.

[DannyInvincible]

Martin O'Neill and Lee Dixon had a disagreement on ITV last night. MON said that the Costa Rican affair would have put some extra pressure on Cillesen. Dixon said no, it's always a no-lose situation for a keeper, he can only be the hero never the villain. I think MON called it right though, I think there was pressure on Cillesen and pressure + doubt slows the reactions. He could well have saved two of those last night.

If LVG had a spare sub to use last night he should have brought on Worm! That'd have got inside Argentina's heads and Worm is a good penalty saver.

(Is that his name, the Swansea guy?)

Saw this myself and had to agree with Martin. How could any keeper not be feeling pressure on his shoulders in a shoot-out situation? Sure, he might not be singled out as a villain for failing to save a penalty, but there's still an enormous amount of responsibility in making sure you keep at least one or two of the opposing team's penalties out. In Cillesen's situation, there was bound to be extra pressure upon him due to the whole Krul thing and, erm, the fact it was the biggest game of his life to date. He looked so small and worried in those goals; I felt slightly sorry for him. He definitely could have done better for one or two of them.

I think Vorm is a great keeper though. He's always impressed me any time I've seen him and I'm surprised he's not their regular starter. Cillesen did well during the game, nevertheless. His catching was top-notch, to be fair. None of that punching sh*t that stu hates! :p

[centre mid]

After the game, Van Gaal said of Argentina's keeper Romero, who played under him at AZ Alkmaar between 2007 (aged 20) and 2009:



Is he Roddy Collins in disguise?

I think he was being sarcastic

[Stuttgart88]

Yes, he was definitely trying to say it with humour.

Didn't Romero also come out and say how indebted he is to Van Gaal? I hope he's only paying simple interest.

[BonnieShels]

*groans*

[DannyInvincible]

I think he was being sarcastic

Ah, I'd only seen it in written form and being reported as if he was being completely serious. Fuppin' Daily Mail on otherwise-monitored work computers...

[NeverFeltBetter]

He should get set for a lot of that kind of reporting when he takes up the reins at Old Trafford proper.

Anyway, I love this - The most common words used to describe every team at the World Cup: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/28247716

Poor Korea.

[DannyInvincible]

An interesting dissection of last night's penalty shoot-out by London School of Economics professor and "definitive penalty expert" Ignacio Palacios-Huerta: http://www.thescore.ie/argentina-holland-world-cup-penalties-1564101-Jul2014/


A most important aspect was van Persie being brought off. Afterwards, Van Gaal said that he would have introduced Tim Krul had he more subs left. I’m not sure it’s entirely ‘correct’ to put Ron Vlaar first. If you construct an index of ‘penalty kick importance’, it looks like a U-shape – that is the most important penalties are the first and the last. This is why I thought Van Gaal had Van Persie take the first kick against Costa Rica. Perhaps Van Gaal thought that Vlaar, who had an excellent game, was in the right psychological frame of mind and was the best possible choice. But Argentina chose Messi as their first taker!

...

With Vlaar missing and Messi scoring, Holland’s initial 60-40 advantage quickly turned into a 31-69 disadvantage. But why didn’t Cillessen stop Messi’s kick? Last season, Messi put 5 kicks to the right and 4 to the left. 1 goalkeeper dived to the right and 8 to the left. Surely Messi was thinking that the right side was working very well for him. Did Cillessen know this? If he did, did he remember this?

...

Indeed, Van Gaal did state that he'd asked Vlaar to go up first because he "thought he was the best player on the pitch so should have confidence". I'm not sure how that apparent expression of faith in hindsight corresponded with him supposedly having also asked two refuseniks to take the first penalty before resorting to asking Vlaar, though...

[CraftyToePoke]

Netherlands coach Louis van Gaal says two of his players refused to take the first penalty in their World Cup semi-final shootout defeat by Argentina. Defender Ron Vlaar stepped up but Sergio Romero saved his kick. Argentina went on to win the shootout 4-2 and will face Germany in Sunday's final.

They don't call it, needing Dutch courage, for nothing.

[geysir]

An interesting dissection of last night's penalty shoot-out by London School of Economics professor and "definitive penalty expert" Ignacio Palacios-Huerta: http://www.thescore.ie/argentina-holland-world-cup-penalties-1564101-Jul2014/



Indeed, Van Gaal did state that he'd asked Vlaar to go up first because he "thought he was the best player on the pitch so should have confidence". I'm not sure how that apparent expression of faith in hindsight corresponded with him supposedly having also asked two refuseniks to take the first penalty before resorting to asking Vlaar, though...
It's par for the course from Van Gaal. He's the clear winner of the WC 2014 self-grandiosment award :)

In the qf shoot out, the Dutch were excellent, a focussed group and confidently scored all their efforts. Van Gaal steps up to receive the praise for his intervention, a masterstroke, a genius a brave decision etc Van Gall basked in his glory for a few days.
For the SF shoot out, it was the players who bottled it, not Van Gaal.

[Stuttgart88]

I love how there are experts in the science of penalties. Ben Littleton (?) has just written a book on it.

Yesterday I was picking my son up from summer football camp. I was early. I took about 20 penalises into an open goal while I was waiting for him. I was trying to score "good" penalties, firm and close to the posts. About ten were just as I wanted them. About 5 were awful, if the keeper had guessed right he'd have saved them easily. About 5 were ok. Even a good guess and it was touch and go. I hit an early one over so I went low the rest of the time!

There was no science in it at all!

[achillrover]

for anyone thats fancying having a nibble on Germany on Sunday, you can get them here at 3/1 if you have a PP account

Available to first 400 paddy power account holders- old and new. Just follow the link and input your paddy power acc details to get the enhancement.


http://cob.uy/6d0c7f

[Stuttgart88]

See the link embedded in this article, suggesting backspin nearly led to Vlaar's penalty going in.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/ron-vlaar-penalty-did-the-dutchman-actually-come-within-inches-of-scoring-9600224.html


Here's another angle

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uX2AfxFelj4

[Stuttgart88]

I enjoyed this contribution by Mark Steel in today's Indy

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/if-they-werent-obsessed-with-instant-profits-england-could-have-a-team-as-good-as-germanys-9598686.html

[DannyInvincible]

See the link embedded in this article, suggesting backspin nearly led to Vlaar's penalty going in.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/ron-vlaar-penalty-did-the-dutchman-actually-come-within-inches-of-scoring-9600224.html


Here's another angle

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uX2AfxFelj4

The footage from closer up shows Vlaar flicked the ball ever so slightly with his shoulder after it came back to him. It was very slight - it pretty much skimmed off him - but it was definitely enough to interrupt the ball's trajectory away from goal and possibly increase the back-spin on it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpqM3-qCOX0

I don't know why some media outlets are still making out as if there is any debate over whether or not he touched it/it touched him. Well, it's saturation coverage, isn't it? It's pretty clear there was contact though. Besides, the ball stopped on the line as it returned back towards goal, so much ado about nothing really.

[pineapple stu]

Is the old rule about a shoot-out penalty being dead once the ball stops going forward gone?

(Thinking Bruno Bellone in 1982, which shouldn't have stood)

[DannyInvincible]

Is the old rule about a shoot-out penalty being dead once the ball stops going forward gone?

(Thinking Bruno Bellone in 1982, which shouldn't have stood)

It must be. Are you sure the rule wasn't/isn't simply that the ball must be kicked forward? This one was given in a Moroccan fixture between FAR Rabat and Maghreb Fez in 2010 despite the ball going back from goal due to the keeper's save before backspin took it back in and over the line:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5Hnvkw9gHA