2014 World Cup

[strangeirish]

Did Schurle mean that?I think he did. And, don't call me Schurle...

[geysir]

Tears aplenty for Algeria from their fans, I think we've been in the exact same place.

[NeverFeltBetter]

In fairness, Germany had much the better of the second half and extra time. Made more chances, took one. Boatang cut out so many Algerian passes forward and from the flanks. Neuer was immense at just coming out when he had to. I'm delighted they're through, because I know they can play better football than this, and they've been doing it for several years.

[geysir]

That has to the first game I saw that Schurrle didn't make some ridiculous dive and he managed to make a real impact based on his skill.

[DannyInvincible]

Valiant Algerian effort. They can go home with their heads held high. Could Bougherra have done better on the line for Ozil's goal? He seemed to just stand there almost leaning back. Maybe the slow-mo replay didn't do him any justice. He should have done a Suarez and thrown his hands (not his teeth!) at it. For a second there, I thought I was seeing Robbie'sgoal in Ibaraki about to be re-enacted. Fair play to Algeria for managing at least one after conceding the second.

[BonnieShels]

That was a cracker.

This is getting silly. Schurrle tomorrow won't be any use?

[Charlie Darwin]

Tears aplenty for Algeria from their fans, I think we've been in the exact same place.
Big parallels to Italia '90 I think. We go home kicking ourselves because we know we really could have won it, but ultimately they had better players and teams with better players tend to do just enough.

[geysir]

That late goal for Algeria just shows that with a bit more belief added on top of their game, they coulda been contenders for the 1/4 finals.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I think it proved if they had some better crossing and lax German defending on top of their game, they could have been contenders for the 1/4 finals.

[Razors left peg]

Its hard to call between the French and Germans now, bit I fancy the French to just about sneak it

[geysir]

I think it proved if they had some better crossing and lax German defending on top of their game, they could have been contenders for the 1/4 finals.
They had plenty of lax German defending during the game, unless one would regard it as normal to be bailed out by the goalkeeper, time and time again, outside his box.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Well, bail them out he did. Algeria never looked fast enough in those situations.

[DannyInvincible]

They had plenty of lax German defending during the game, unless one would regard it as normal to be bailed out by the goalkeeper, time and time again, outside his box.

Their frequent re-occurrence and the total German success rate in dealing with them would indicate it might be crude to put these situations down to careless lapses though. I think it was actually part of the German game-plan to run such a high-risk strategy. I think it would be to misinterpret their game-plan to view this as a failing with them requiring constant bailing out by a flailing keeper. They weren't being caught out and Neuer was no deer caught in the headlights; they just seemed content to play a type of game where this fairly non-threatening (as was proven) type of thing was allowed happen.

Not that Germany would have specifically intended for Algeria to find themselves one-on-one with Neuer so often, but these situations would surely have been more design than accident in the sense that they were an inevitable result of the German game-plan; Germany were happy to allow Algeria in behind them safe in the knowledge that the ever-alert Neuer would be there to cover anyway, thus negating a need for the defence to play deep and allowing them to devote attentions elsewhere.

Neuer's known ability in this area allowed Germany to play a high line with the keeper as designated sweeper. He was by no means that last-gasp desperado stretching to get anything to the ball on each occasion. His permanent starting position was at the edge of the box from where he attacked any oncoming ball. ITV showed a graphic and a huge proportion of his touches occurred outside the box. He has form here and cleaned up everything in controlled fashion with composure and finesse. Did Algeria ever really threaten from any of those situations? Neuer nipped everything in the bud before it had a chance to develop behind the back four. The slow-motion replays were majestic. Why needlessly commit men to deep positions at the back when your keeper can deal with it all instead? It looked risky - perhaps because Neuer was always out of frame from our televised perspective - but I think Germany had them sussed. Algeria managed two shots on target during the first 90 minutes.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Germany will need to play much much better come Freitag. Their defence is very dodgy. Even Herr Keogh has scored against them.

Algeria ran out of steam and did as well to go as far as they did. Not just in this game but the 4 games they played.
Not as good as Ireland in 1990, light years ahead of what we have now (& tbf half the teams in Europe)... their spirit and organisation was tremendous.

[NeverFeltBetter]

That's also all of the AFC and CAF teams out before the Last Eight. A huge portion of the world that just can't get it right.

[osarusan]

Big parallels to Italia '90 I think. We go home kicking ourselves because we know we really could have won it, but ultimately they had better players and teams with better players tend to do just enough.

Do you mean Japan Korea 2002?

In Italia 90 Italy were easily the better team, had numerous chances and a goal wrongly disallowed, while we created very very little. One Quinn header was about it.

[Charlie Darwin]

No, although 2002 could equally apply. Maybe I'm remembering Italia 90 through green-tinted spectacles but I never thought we were in that much danger in that match.

[BonnieShels]

But you should know better that danger always lurks. And it's usually "here".

[DannyInvincible]

What about Duff in Suwon? He could have avoided the leg but chose to get tripped by it. Dishonest? Not really because the defender's slide missed the ball, cut across a Duff and would have cost Duff control of it. Penalty for me.

For me, he took an unwarranted tumble. It was a dive. My all-time favourite dive, mind. But still a dive. And thank God for it! :)

I think I hear what you say though; it was a careless enough tackle to have impeded Duff and would have warranted the awarding of a penalty irrespective of whether he remained on his feet or not. Whether the ref would have given it though had Duff tried to keep going along his "natural" path is not certain, unfortunately.

Just looking back at this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGnw0rh58Us

Duffer played an absolute blinder. Lovely re-watching his input.


What about Huth on David Meyler? No contact but definite foul. Meyler jumped away to avoid having his ankle broken.

Jumping out of the way to avoid injury is fine. It's only what you'd expect. There'll be no archer's bow on show there though and an astute referee should be wise to careless/reckless attempts by tacklers that could potentially injure if not for a player getting himself out of the way.


Danny, I think you read these situations like a lawyer would rather than a guy who just gets what's a foul and what isn't, if you don't mind me saying.

Hehe, maybe so. To be honest, I'm possibly being a tad pedantic in debate, or polemic even, as we're dealing with such fine margins. When there's uncertainty in practice, I suppose I look towards the rules in hope of clarity. Nevertheless, I'd have an instinctive idea, like any regular viewer of the game, of what generally constitutes a foul just from seeing a contentious incident. In most cases, you just know. I swear, I don't actually have the rule-book open next to me whilst a game is playing! Well, not always anyway. Usually, I can only do two things at once, and seeing as I'll already be on here typing away during a match, I can so little else... :p

I do like to get a feel for the rule-book too though when an incident raises questions. It's fascinating to see how its words are interpreted and applied. Is there consistency and whatnot? Admittedly, more often than not, I can end up getting bogged down and confusing myself more by looking at it from a somewhat literal perspective! The rules are the foundation of the game though so it's only sensible to try and understand them. I often wonder how the game would be played if it was derived purely from the rules as written rather than the rule-book having been developed around what we understand to be the general or original spirit of the game. Of course, it's impossible that you could first draw up rules with meaning and significance without some over-riding spirit, but if you gave two alien managers and their alien teams a rule-book and asked them to devise complex strategies based solely on the words therein, it would be fascinating to witness what type of would unfold. Maybe the creativity and inventiveness of Brazilian football, for example, has something to do with this. They're not burdened, like the English might be, with this notion of being the inventors, and thus the self-assumed protectors, of the game. In carrying such a burden, possibly the English game is held back from truly breaking free and moving beyond what the English feel to be its original conception, spirit or ethos. Flash individualism and the like is frowned upon with tough tackling and defensive work appreciated. Maybe, maybe not... I'm rambling again and must get ready for work!

[BonnieShels]

Go to work ya loon.

[bennocelt]

Wow lucky to have that on your iphone, ha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Foy61srUo9A

[pineapple stu]

News that Cameroon mayn't have been that bad after all (http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/worldcup/2014/0701/627645-cameroon-investigation/).

[geysir]

For me, he took an unwarranted tumble. It was a dive. My all-time favourite dive, mind. But still a dive. And thank God for it! :)

I think I hear what you say though; it was a careless enough tackle to have impeded Duff and would have warranted the awarding of a penalty irrespective of whether he remained on his feet or not. Whether the ref would have given it though had Duff tried to keep going along his "natural" path is not certain, unfortunately.
I can't see how Duff could have avoided getting felled by the sliding tackle of the defender, who missed the ball.

Interesting article by Jim White in the english Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/holland/10936208/World-Cup-2014-In-defence-of-Arjen-Robben-after-Dutch-winger-wins-crucial-penalty-to-sink-Mexico.html), on his justification of this 'slight contact in the box, entitlement to make a meal of it and get a valid penalty' interpretation.

I think some of the comments posted absolutely pummel the journo Jim White
"When even a respectable sports journo publishes an article based around a player 'winning' a penalty the game can only go further downhill....
Penalties are not a part of the game that can be won, they are compensation for an opportunity missed as a result of an actual foul in the box. Jim White either fails to comprehend the basic rules or has confused football with figure skating."

"Jim White admits that there was minimal contact - not enough for Robben to go down, and yet he says it was a penalty. If the contact was as slight as you say it was, and if Robben needn't have gone down (and he did) that's cheating isn't it?"

"Jim White seems to have bought into the view that players are entitled to throw themselves to the ground if they feel any contact at all.
Who decided that this was the new standard?"

"If you think about the mechanics of running, it is not the trailing foot being impeded that causes a fall. It is always the impeding of the foot which must take the weight next. In Robben's case his left foot was the next to take his weight and was not impeded. There was no reason whatsoever for him to fall. I couldn't trip a 4 year old like that, let alone a top-class athlete."

[geysir]

Wow lucky to have that on your iphone, ha
Reminds me of a Keith Fahey goal, though would Keith have needed to chest it down?

[osarusan]

I can't see how Duff could have avoided getting felled by the sliding tackle of the defender, who missed the ball.


whether or not him needing to avoid the contact is an impediment in itself is one question, but it is stretching it in my opinion to say he couldn't have avoided being felled by the tackle. Looking at the angle from behind the goalline, he could easily have just lifted his leg over the tackle, and would have done so if it hadn't been inside the penalty box, I'd say.

[geysir]

whether or not him needing to avoid the contact is an impediment in itself is one question, but it is stretching it in my opinion to say he couldn't have avoided being felled by the tackle. Looking at the angle from behind the goalline, he could easily have just lifted his leg over the tackle, and would have done so if it hadn't been inside the penalty box, I'd say.
The angle behind the goal is portrayed in very slow motion :)
At normal camera speed, everything happens in a flash. Duff was in control of the ball and was taken out in his stride by a player who missed the ball.
Possibly he could have leapt in the air to avoid contact (in that nanosecond of time) after he pushed the ball ahead. The important bit was that the contact was fierce enough to fell him
The only obvious way that was not going to be a penalty, was if the defender got to the ball first.

The point about Robben was that he contrived the trip out of minimal contact, after he had lost control of the ball and there appears to be a chorus of considered (misinformed) opinion which consider a player has the right to make a meal out of minimal contact and claim a penalty. That somehow there is a secret sacred doctrine ,somewhere in the rulebook which says so.

[Stuttgart88]

In fairness, Germany had much the better of the second half and extra time. Made more chances, took one. Boatang cut out so many Algerian passes forward and from the flanks. Neuer was immense at just coming out when he had to. I'm delighted they're through, because I know they can play better football than this, and they've been doing it for several years.
That was the first time I've been properly impressed by Boateng. He saved them on a few occasions.

Against us, if Germany play the high line they played for the first 25 mins we should bring Alan O'Brien out of retirement.

[DannyInvincible]

I can't see how Duff could have avoided getting felled by the sliding tackle of the defender, who missed the ball.

He did drag his leg though. There would have been no reason for him to do that if he was intending to keep going on his feet. It wouldn't have been necessary for him to do that either if he'd felt the tackle alone would have taken him out. He held his leg in what you might call an unnatural position. Whilst the tackle certainly interfered with him and carelessly impeded him (thus, constituting a foul), I don't think it would have taken him down had Duffer not been happy to play along. The problem is that the ref probably wouldn't have given a penalty had Duff not hit the ground, so I can see what might have influenced Duff in feeling the need to go to ground. Not that I held/hold it against him. I was revelling in it then and it still provokes a wry smile when I watch it again now. :)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Let it go, it's ancient history and thus irrelevant!

[Stuttgart88]

Exercise for Damny: look at the Jarred Payne red card incident during Ulster v Saracens. Then go to the Laws of the Game 2013. Look at the definition of a tackle. Identify the offence. Then look at the ERC press release after the disciplinary hearing. Compare the wording to the rule book.

None of it stacked up but yet it looked like a foul and smelt like a foul. That's the test in my union. This season's rugby has shown that refs often judge an incident by the player's landing, not by the actual offence. My point? In all field sports it's very often a very subjective decision. Everything isn't always clear cut, there are big grey areas. Mourniho today calls for a 4th official to have benefit of a video. It might improve things but it won't eradicate highly subjective decision making.

AB, that ought to keep him occupied for several hours :) and I apologise, I'll let it go now too.

[DannyInvincible]

Damny

I might be eternally condemned, but calling me that is a bit much!

[DannyInvincible]

World Cup group-stage "flopping" rankings by the Wall Street Journal: http://online.wsj.com/articles/the-world-rankings-of-flopping-1403660175

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OG-AB772_COUNT6_G_20140624210645.jpg

[Charlie Darwin]

Good work, Honduras.

[Stuttgart88]

I love all the moaning from people who have never played the game. There are lots of bone on bone impacts in football or studs on bone. They hurt like hell. If you're at a game with few spectators and close to the pitch you can often hear the contact*. A kick on a bone can hurt like hell and be gone in 60 seconds. There was a game recently where the fouled player yelled and flung himself in the air. I though, oh no, not another dive. Then I saw the replay and he got a guy's studs on the top of his foot which must have been agony.

Yet based on what you read, especially in the comments sections of news sites, you'd swear every time a player goes to ground it's some sort of deceipt. Deception and diving goes on, of course, but some of the criticism is ill-placed too and many of those who complain most wouldn't last 5 minutes in a game of competitive football.

And it annoys the hell out of me when idiots like Lawrenson go "oh, he made the most of that" when a player has clearly been clobbered. His heyday was so long ago it virtually makes his views redundant.

I think some balance needs to be restored to the deception debate.

* in fact the sound of a kick can often be a factor in a ref's decision, since we're debating what ought to be a foul or not.

[ArdeeBhoy]

An S.Bl*tter in the crowd, what price a contentious decision...

[Charlie Darwin]

Stutts just Paul O'Shead the lot of you with some devastating real world experience.

[bennocelt]

An S.Bl*tter in the crowd, what price a contentious decision...

To be fair he is supporting his team! Gone quiet all of a sudden outside, weird for this time of day!

[Stuttgart88]

Stutts just Paul O'Shead the lot of you with some devastating real world experience.
I was watching an under 8 game last Sunday. The number of well intended but fractionally late tackles, usually on the most talented dribblers, that led to kicks on ankles or shins was unreal. You could hear the bangs and when a kid is in floods of tears I think you can tell he's not looking to get his opponent booked. Unless you're in a Uruguayan slum or watching a game involving kids with immoral parents. :)

[Stuttgart88]

Hmm, not sure about that one just there though :)

[Razors left peg]

Ahhhhhhhhh...... what kind of attempt was that. It was like Shane Longs attempt against Serbia(think it was Serbia?) The Swiss will regret that one

[DannyInvincible]

Goodness gracious! Drmic made a complete and utter hames of that one.

[Stuttgart88]

Given the quality of their players this Argentina team is staggeringly bad. Algeria and Costa Rica etc exceed the sum of their parts. Argentina is less than the sum of its parts, notwithstanding the weakness of their GK and central defenders.

Did Lawrenson just say the keeper should have put a skirt on? FFS, that's outrageous.

[Charlie Darwin]

Ahhhhhhhhh...... what kind of attempt was that. It was like Shane Longs attempt against Serbia(think it was Serbia?) The Swiss will regret that one
Was a more difficult chance but I think it was the same problem - too much time to think about it and the goalkeeper had taken up a great position. He'd have done well to take a touch and pick his spot, force the keeper to make a decision.

Lawrenson is a jackass.

[DannyInvincible]

Did Lawrenson just say the keeper should have put a skirt on? FFS, that's outrageous.

If I recall correctly, the lead commentator was making some comment the other day about having seen either one of the US players or squad staff sporting a head of dreadlocks in their hotel lobby. Lawro, who'd also seen him, rather crudely confessed that he "genuinely thought that fella was a tramp". He's ridiculous.

My favourite faux-pas still has to be Glenn Hoddle introducing Algeria's trouble as "the problem for Al Jazeera..." last night:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39IXVX3F_V8

[Razors left peg]

Only in English football culture could Glenn Hoddle be thought of as an intelligent guy

[BonnieShels]

Glenn is a dumbass. But Glenn can read the game.

Except for that time there was an argument on sky during a game where there was a suggestion by Glenn that the posts should be thinner so we can see the ball go over the line...

Think about that.

On Lawrenson, some of the stuff he has said during this world cup has been frankly disgraceful and really should see him sacked. But somehow...

[bennocelt]

Glenn is a dumbass. But Glenn can read the game.

Except for that time there was an argument on sky during a game where there was a suggestion by Glenn that the posts should be thinner so we can see the ball go over the line...

Think about that.

On Lawrenson, some of the stuff he has said during this world cup has been frankly disgraceful and really should see him sacked. But somehow...

He is a good analyst, that was just a slip, no biggie

[Razors left peg]

I hate the Swiss but I cant help but love that they are still in this game. Very well organised team. Maybe we should get an old club manager legend as our manager....

[BonnieShels]

He is a good analyst, that was just a slip, no biggie

The Al Jazeera thing was no big deal.

But I'm thinking of the ca. 98 madness.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Given the quality of their players this Argentina team is staggeringly bad. Algeria and Costa Rica etc exceed the sum of their parts. Argentina is less than the sum of its parts, notwithstanding the weakness of their GK and central defenders.

Did Lawrenson just say the keeper should have put a skirt on? FFS, that's outrageous.

Outside of anything suffered by England (or Liverpool), I can't remember the last time I heard him agree a tackle was a bad one.