FAI Cup 2013

[MiniMourinho]

May as well add my tuppence ha'penny worth. I thought the first incident was a red. You could argue it both ways, but I think most refs most of the time would have given red.

The second one, when slowed down through replay, looks like a penalty was harsh. But on first viewing, at full speed, I thought it was a penalty, and that's all the ref has to go on. It shouldn't have resulted in a sending off though. Very hard luck on Dundalk, but the level of vitriol shown towards the ref by some for this decision was out of proportion.

100% spot on.

[redobit]

Never been at a game where the home crowd were held back after the game.

Told by a MC that the plan was to keep the fans back of the team that won.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I'd agree with the general consensus here. First tackle was crazy reckless and totally unnecessary in the exact circumstances. Second, I've seen them given and not given as penalties so I have no serious beef with the ref over that. But there was a covering defender. Certainly not a red.

[Dillonman]

I think we can all agree that the FAI will do sweet FA and the same idiots will be officiating week in week out not matter what they do. yesterday's debacle will not spur them on to change their process of training refs but yet they will be quick enough to hand out fines and suspensions to almost all our backroom staff and any players who said anything.

[dejadem]

Any comment on Towell's hand ball in the wall? looked a like clear penalty

[Dillonman]

Any comment on Towell's hand ball in the wall? looked a like clear penalty

Any comment on the countless fouls on Dundalk players for the entire 90 mins that were ignored?

[White Horse]

Alan Cawley gets it spot on.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2013/1007/478882-alan-cawley-referee-ruined-louth-derby/

[Dillonman]

Alan Cawley gets it spot on.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2013/1007/478882-alan-cawley-referee-ruined-louth-derby/

Precisely, the goon needed a bit of cop on, not to dish out reds for the first two tackles of the game.

[Mr A]

Just read that. Alan Cawley comes up with this nugget:


The reason I say this is because you have to take into consideration the occasion, it was a local derby, still very early in the game plus it was very wet and the conditions were slippery.

The laws of the game are the same all the time. I hate this stupid idea that they should be relaxed if it's a local derby or if it's a big game.

Kenny has said in interviews that they suspected there would be a red card and spoke to the players about it. And then Meenan flies in like that when it was totally uncalled for. He can't blame the pitch for what he did. But I haven't seen any criticism of him at all while lots of LOI players are laying into the officials.

The penalty incident was less clear cut but my thoughts on first viewing were that it was a foul and denied a shooting opportunity in the box.

[dejadem]

Any comment on the countless fouls on Dundalk players for the entire 90 mins that were ignored?


Yeah I can comment, LOI referees are poor, hardly breaking news, plenty of fouls both ways not given, could have been more in favour for one team or another, didn't take a count.

So, any comment on Towell's hand ball in the wall? It seems Stephen Kenny missed it in his summary.

[White Horse]

Yeah I can comment, LOI referees are poor, hardly breaking news, plenty of fouls both ways not given, could have been more in favour for one team or another, didn't take a count.

So, any comment on Towell's hand ball in the wall? It seems Stephen Kenny missed it in his summary.


You seem to be the only one talking about it. What time did it happen? I'll give it a look to see if I can spot what you saw.

[SeanDrog]

Yeah I can comment, LOI referees are poor, hardly breaking news, plenty of fouls both ways not given, could have been more in favour for one team or another, didn't take a count.

So, any comment on Towell's hand ball in the wall? It seems Stephen Kenny missed it in his summary.

It was a referee error as it was clearly a penalty IMO.

[Dodge]

You seem to be the only one talking about it. What time did it happen? I'll give it a look to see if I can spot what you saw.

From the free kick that was awarded when Meenan sent off. Clear handball.

I think that's the broader issue to be fair, Buttimer isn't biased. he's just awful

[dejadem]

From the free kick after Meenan's red card I think, Cassidy made a big deal of out at the time. I'll check it out online now, Towell on the end of the wall has his arm up, ball hits him and goes out for a corner.

[Louth4sam]

Yeah I can comment, LOI referees are poor, hardly breaking news, plenty of fouls both ways not given, could have been more in favour for one team or another, didn't take a count.

So, any comment on Towell's hand ball in the wall? It seems Stephen Kenny missed it in his summary.

Any comment on the studs up stamp by Alan Byrne and his elbow just before it near the end of the game. If we are going by the laws of the game he should have walked too. Buttimer give us nothing all day. He was if anything even worse in the second half.

[Louth4sam]

I think that's the broader issue to be fair, Buttimer isn't biased. he's just awful

I agree he is awful, but after being abused at half time he seemed to give us nothing at all in the second half. If that's not biased I don't know what is.

[deiseach]

Just read that. Alan Cawley comes up with this nugget:



The laws of the game are the same all the time. I hate this stupid idea that they should be relaxed if it's a local derby or if it's a big game.

Kenny has said in interviews that they suspected there would be a red card and spoke to the players about it. And then Meenan flies in like that when it was totally uncalled for. He can't blame the pitch for what he did. But I haven't seen any criticism of him at all while lots of LOI players are laying into the officials.

You have to marvel at the logic that says the referee should take the conditions into account. Effectively it's saying that the players don't have to take the conditions into account, thus absolving the people who can actually do something about it of any responsibility.

[dejadem]

I think that's the broader issue to be fair, Buttimer isn't biased. he's just awful

That's the point I was trying to make. Bad decision impacted on Dundalk, but it's not alone in bad decisions. Just in UP this season, Fagan's handball penalty & Bossekota's sending off were just as bad. Doesn't make it right of course. Kenny's crying about Meenan's been a "yellow at best" doesn't help Dundalk's argument either.

[dejadem]

Any comment on the studs up stamp by Alan Byrne and his elbow just before it near the end of the game. If we are going by the laws of the game he should have walked too. Buttimer give us nothing all day. He was if anything even worse in the second half.

Yes, I can comment again.
Absolutely agree! I presume Byrne got away because there another bad tackle by Daly straight after it which he was booked for. It was a terrible tackle by Byrne, went right through the player. Towell still handled the ball though.

[Charlie Darwin]

Alan Cawley gets it spot on.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2013/1007/478882-alan-cawley-referee-ruined-louth-derby/
I hate this "he should referee the occasion" waffle. The ref's job is to enforce the rules, otherwise it's unfair to the team that's been offended against. By all means, argue that it was no more than a yellow, but don't argue it should somehow be less because it's a big match.

[Dodge]

I agree he is awful, but after being abused at half time he seemed to give us nothing at all in the second half. If that's not biased I don't know what is.

There was nothing to give in the second half. Can't see how you'd have an issue with him there

[White Horse]

From the free kick that was awarded when Meenan sent off. Clear handball.

I think that's the broader issue to be fair, Buttimer isn't biased. he's just awful

On a different day, it could have been Drogheda moaning about the decisions that cost them a cup final place etc. I certainly wouldn't argue that Buttimer has it in for Dundalk.

I will look at that handball claim. I was level with that free kick in the ground at the time but saw nothing. I'll have another look though.

[Nesta99]

Some refs in LoI definately have an ego and maybe as failed players seek out a profile. That said a wider issue that is international too is that players con refs reguarly, and without the benefit of slowmo replay they may as well toss a coin on what sanction to give. Take Floods dive in Inchicore v Dundalk that got massey booked or the robust tackles that went in on Towell but were unpunished(not focusing on Pats players just recent examples). Refs need to be assisted properly and supported by the association. If that is retrospective heavy punishment dished out from TV evididence and is significant discouragement for players to cheat the job of reffing is an easier one. Refs are bad but it isnt all in their court all of the time!
While people may say that Cawleys assertion that refs should be more lenient in a derby or other high profile games is rubbish, well i believe that a level of common sense leniency should be given - dish out a yellow for every tackle in the first 10 minutes as a feisty game has 2 teams trying to get the early edge - then the bar is set for numerous sendings off, controversy and people calling for common sense, refs in a lose lose, so Cawley's opinion has some merit within reason.
Meenans sending off, well if had been a Drog player i'd have been saying hmmm maybe harsh, could be a yellow but can see why the red was dished, then i'd probably have chuckled and though tough sh*te! Sheilds well peno maybe as may have been hard to judge at full pelt, the ball clearly deviated making ye thing that he made contact with the ball, could have accepted the peno as one of those footballing things, I just dont get the sending off, if that red was a precedence then every mistimed tackle or foul in the box could be a red. It was an honest attempt to play the ball, there was defensive cover so last man or professional foul is not the rationale, violent conduct nope. Was it a red anywhere else on the pitch, highly unlikely so therefore not a red ever.
Im sure many can understand the frustration, Drogs will have a laugh about it and do plenty of winding up, some Dundalk fans will play the persecution card, others wont speak for a week. and while it may be puke worthy to some we still have had some season, uncovered a few gems, lifted attendences, moved toward a breakeven/small deficit financial year ahead of schedule. Stability at management level, soon with playing staff, European qualification and all after a season where relegation was a certainty bar Monagahan's Dundalk FC rescue bid!

[Charlie Darwin]

There is no last-man rule. It was a goal-scoring opportunity (hence why Shields had to gamble and make the challenge) so if it's a foul it's a red according to the rules, but I think he got the ball. Meenan's was just a straight-forward red. I don't know why anyone would say otherwise, he came steaming in late and high with his studs showing.

[White Horse]

Meenan's was just a straight-forward red. I don't know why anyone would say otherwise, he came steaming in late and high with his studs showing.

Was it high? I don't recall it as being a high tackle.

[Charlie Darwin]

Was it high? I don't recall it as being a high tackle.
Judge for yourself: http://www.rte.ie/sport/player/734/478860/

He's about two feet off the ground at one point but he's lower when he actually makes contact. O'Conor is lucky he didn't have his studs planted otherwise his leg would be in two pieces right now.

[dejadem]

a bit off the ground on impact.

1951

[White Horse]

a bit off the ground on impact.

1951

A few inches off the ground. I wouldn't call it high unless an ankle is considered high.

[nigel-harps1954]

A few inches off the ground. I wouldn't call it high unless an ankle is considered high.

Jesus man, wise up a bit. Horrible challenge by Meenan.

I've huge sympathy for Dundalk. Genuinely wanted them to hammer Drogs, but sympathy is slowly wearing very thin looking at their reactions.

They can feel ever so slightly aggrieved about two red cards, but 100% a penalty, and at very minimum, a yellow for Meenan given that he genuinely attempted to get the ball.

[White Horse]

Jesus man, wise up a bit. Horrible challenge by Meenan.

It's still not a high challenge. Let's keep it factual and stop embellishing.

[dejadem]

It's still not a high challenge. Let's keep it factual and stop embellishing.

True, but impact on the standing leg would be a different matter even at that height.

[Louth4sam]

There was nothing to give in the second half. Can't see how you'd have an issue with him there

These two for starters. 2:01:16 and 1:56:20 http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10205612/
Both should have been bookings and second one wasn't even a free???

There was also Drogheda handballs he let go and any 50/50 decision went in Drogheda's favour. His first half display was incompetence, his second half he had an agenda.

[White Horse]

True, but impact on the standing leg would be a different matter even at that height.

Look, it was a bad tackle and one that could have hurt O'Conor.

It was a definite yellow. I thought a red was harsh, but have seen them given in similar cases.

It was a pretty good game up to that point. Both teams were trying to play ball and avoid giving away fouls.

[Louth4sam]

but sympathy is slowly wearing very thin looking at their reactions.


Are the reactions any worse than this?


Gavin Brennan is a dirty pr!ck and should never be let onto a football pitch again. Damien McNulty was out on the field at the end of the match looking for the two teeth he had knocked out.

Tomas Connolly and Rob Rodgers should never be let near a football pitch again similarly. Most disgraceful officiating performance I've ever, ever seen in a football ground. Gardaí had to escort them off the field at the end of the match as there was about 200 Harps fans waiting to pounce on them and Peter Hutton had to be held back from Rodgers on the side of the field when Coll was sent off.

[Nesta99]

There is no last-man rule. It was a goal-scoring opportunity (hence why Shields had to gamble and make the challenge) so if it's a foul it's a red according to the rules, but I think he got the ball. Meenan's was just a straight-forward red. I don't know why anyone would say otherwise, he came steaming in late and high with his studs showing.

Last man , covering defender, professional foul, call it whatever but have a look again it wasnt a clear goal scoring oppertunity with Andy Boyle about to put a block in if OBrien had carried through. It wasnt a penalty but if it had been given without a card i could accept that even if made no difference to the outcome, i cannot get the thought process behind the red card. Meenan i have no qualms with his card, it was rash and on a wet surface should know that momentum could carry him through the player risking the card!

[dejadem]

Peno cover, it's close enough could have got a shot in, could have been blocked. Interestingly on the radio this morning Stephen Kenny described this as:
"3 defenders closing in from the other side".

1952

[Charlie Darwin]

Last man , covering defender, professional foul, call it whatever but have a look again it wasnt a clear goal scoring oppertunity with Andy Boyle about to put a block in if OBrien had carried through. It wasnt a penalty but if it had been given without a card i could accept that even if made no difference to the outcome, i cannot get the thought process behind the red card. Meenan i have no qualms with his card, it was rash and on a wet surface should know that momentum could carry him through the player risking the card!
Just for yourself. Looks to me like he has loads of room to get his shot away even if the covering defender does come across.

1953

[dundalkfc10]

Would the PFAI not come out and defend there players? Surely a statement on the disgrace of a ref needs to be issued

[dundalkfc10]

Just for yourself. Looks to me like he has loads of room to get his shot away even if the covering defender does come across.

1953

The fact he won the ball dosnt come into it no?

[nigel-harps1954]

Are the reactions any worse than this?

Yeah, certainly. I only had to preach my dismay once and be done with it.

[dejadem]

Would the PFAI not come out and defend there players? Surely a statement on the disgrace of a ref needs to be issued

Maybe they could, but then they would be releasing statements every couple of weeks. There have been many peno & red card incidents over the season that were wrong calls from refs, Chris Shields is not the first victim. What happens then? refs start to target players that have shown up their colleagues, it's not beyond them to do something like that.

[Charlie Darwin]

The fact he won the ball dosnt come into it no?
I've stated several times before that I believe he got the ball. The debate is over whether the referee having decided he made a foul, if it was then to be considered a goal-scoring opportunity.

[Nesta99]

Just for yourself. Looks to me like he has loads of room to get his shot away even if the covering defender does come across.

1953

Just for yourself the distance out and the closing covering defender means it was not a clear goal scoring chance! Getting a shot away does not make it a clear chance if he is going to be dealing with a block from the defender. Take Boyle out of that picture and there is no debate on the card. Look at it at full pace and you will also how quickly Boyle was closing down the gap in front of Cherrie. Anyhow we shall soon have the nuggets of wisdom rolled out by the MNS team and should have a refs rep on the panel. But like everything people will see what they want to see.

Looking at that pick again it is likely that OBrien would probably have tried to nutmeg Boyle by cutting inside to get the shot off.

[KeepersBall]

For me Buttimer got the first decision 100% correct. As regards the second incident, it took me a few looks on TV replays to see that the defender got the ball, at the match I was convinced he didn't.
As regards the player getting across to block Fabios shot, nota chance, the key to it is where the ball was, it was on his left foot and while the defender might just MIGHT have blocked a right footed effort he was never getting across in time to block a left footed shot.
As I said I thinkthe ref got it wrong, but having given the foul the red card had to be issued.

[Yossarian]

All this dissecting of the decisions won't make any difference. I think the basic point that everyone agrees on is the standard of officiating in the league is very poor. Every team can point to countless decisions that were ridiculous and it's clear the referees are just bad as opposed to deliberately targeting any team. The problem for the referee in this case is that it was a high profile game on live TV and the two incidents were so close together. On the individual decisions I think the red for Meenan's was fair enough but Shields shouldn't have got a red even if it was a legitimate foul.
Anyway it's over now and its a pity our season has finished on a disappointment like this but we've had a fantastic year and sure who knows, maybe Pats will drop points in all their remaining games.......ok so I'm losing the run of myself now!

[dundalkfc10]

Everyone agress the Ref's need to be improved but the fact is nothing will ever be done about it.

Buttimer will prob get the final since it will be his last game, Another game ruined i imagine

[avvenalaf]

Meenan's challenge a straight red all day long. Shields red a travesty of a decision.

[PartySaint]

I think the fact they people are arguing about the decisions shows they are no way clear cut. For me I can see why he gave Meenan the red, the second one I think was a peno but a red slightly harsh

Dundalk released a statement tonight...MegaLOLs

[sligoman]

That Dundalk statement (http://www.dundalkfc.com/dundalk-football-club-statement/) is embarrassing. Seriously Dundalk fans, ye should be looking for the club to take that down.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

Didn't hear Stephen Kenny complaining at Cherrie not being sent off on Monday night against Derry