2011 Presidential Election

[BonnieShels]

Bloody shame.

Now who's next in the firing line. Please god be Gallagher.

[Spudulika]

Even though he's the perfect Trinners head, I still want to see him in the Seanaid, however from the way it's being put in the media right now his position might be untenable. What would happen if DN was a Bishop who wrote to a lawyer to support a priest who had done the same thing?

[Eminence Grise]

I don't think he has anything to fear on that account - and I'm not saying it as a fellow (if less than perfect) Trinners head!! Any resignations of politicians for interfering in judicial processes that I can think of have been junior ministers (Molloy, Killeen, Sargent) who resigned the office but not the seat. I reckon there'll be something else to occupy the media within a week or so.

[Spudulika]

You think it'll take that long? If Rovers win tonight DN will be forgotten about until they go after Mary Davis.

[backstothewall]

He probably had to go, but it means the only decent candidate has gone. Best of the rest is probably Higgins who will be 81 by the end of the first term.

It really needs a new candidate to enter the field.

[Eminence Grise]

I couldn't agree more, but with the nastiness of this campaign and the last two (Adi Roche's brother; Lenihan and the tapes, Pee Flynn's snide remarks about Robinson's newfound interest in the family) who in their right mind would go for it? The only ones used to that kind of thing are politicians - and we have enough of them already.

It's getting late for a new independent to get a council nomination, and anyway there are few enough left if you take out the ones already declared or controlled by FG. So unless FF, SF or the ULA run somebody, we've got Hobson's choice.

[BonnieShels]

I like the sound of this Hobson fella. :)

It's Higgins' now to lose which means that we await the dirt which will be found on him.

[Eminence Grise]

Dana.

Just reported on Newstalk: she's interested.

I'm just going to have a little lie-down in a dark room with a cold compress....

Edit: well, that didn't work. Here's the link: http://www.newstalk.ie/2011/news/dana-considering-presidential-campaign-sources/

[TiocfaidhArmani]

Dana.

Just reported on Newstalk: she's interested.

I'm just going to have a little lie-down in a dark room with a cold compress....

Edit: well, that didn't work. Here's the link: http://www.newstalk.ie/2011/news/dana-considering-presidential-campaign-sources/

Jaysus, no. Say it ain't so :(

[Mr A]

Norris out. Dana In.

http://www.operatorchan.org/n/arch/src/n129753_I_dont_want_to_live_on_this_planet_anymore .jpg

[Macy]

I couldn't agree more, but with the nastiness of this campaign and the last two (Adi Roche's brother; Lenihan and the tapes, Pee Flynn's snide remarks about Robinson's newfound interest in the family) who in their right mind would go for it? The only ones used to that kind of thing are politicians - and we have enough of them already.
Roche and Robinson were victims of smears, Lenihan and Norris were "victims" of their own past conduct. There's a difference. I think it's ridiculous to lump them together. Additionally, Norris and Lenihan are/were established politicians anyway.

[Eminence Grise]

Apart from how information was made public, which I think is what you're referring to, the nastiness is equally present in how the media reported all the cases. Presidential campaigns are like cockfights for the op ed writers and phone-in shows, though not so much for the regular pol corrs who see so much blood it doesn't excite them any more.

[Spudulika]

Macy, Robinson was a politician too - plus she was one of the toughest and best barristers in the business. There is a real nasty element in Irish politics that has caught so many in the crosshairs. Crooks like Haughey and Bertie escape almost scot free, yet others outside the central circles are not so lucky.

Mary Davis will be next in the firing line, Gallagher hasn't a hope as he's a dead duck. The sad thing is we'll get another geriatric in the Aras for some spurious reason of his past contrinbutions to Irish life.

[Macy]

Macy, Robinson was a politician too - plus she was one of the toughest and best barristers in the business. There is a real nasty element in Irish politics that has caught so many in the crosshairs. Crooks like Haughey and Bertie escape almost scot free, yet others outside the central circles are not so lucky.
Yeah, but it was still a smear on her rather than exposure of something she'd done. It's clear I wasn't a Norris fan, but at the same time I can't see how he has any complaints about what came out. Ditto Lenihan - he was caught rapid. Roche was hung out to dry on something that happened to her brother 30 years or something before, of which there wasn't actually any conviction or anything.


Mary Davis will be next in the firing line, Gallagher hasn't a hope as he's a dead duck. The sad thing is we'll get another geriatric in the Aras for some spurious reason of his past contrinbutions to Irish life.
I'd say they're digging up quotes and photo's of Davis to confirm she's an FFer. It's done for Gallagher - although as I've probably said before, it's his denials that have really done for him.

[Eminence Grise]

Michael O'Muircheartaigh and Gay Byrne are the latest to be linked with the presidency.

At the rate we're clocking up candidates, there'll soon be one for everybody in the audience.

[Macy]

As potential official FF candidates - as if Bryne being appointed to the RSA wasn't enough confirmation. Would make Higgins look like a young candidate.

Mitchell is possible trouble over an appeal for clemency for an unrepentant murderer of a doctor who worked in an abortion clinic, and his body guard. There's even audio of the murderer saying he was doing God's work. To me, he'd want to produce evidence of it being part of a general campaign against the death penalty with other letters for non religious fanatics. As it stands, it's worse than Norris's letter. And while I don't believe there was a homophobic campaign against Norris in the media (although I believe Waters and Quinn are putting the boot in today), the way Mitchell's letter is being dismissed so readily is ridiculous.

[Spudulika]

Good points on the 3 you mentioned Macy, Lenihan was grubby and unfortunately for himself and his family already quite ill. Adi Roche ran foul of FF and they did her in.

In regards to Norris I'd look more to his own failings as a person than to a media witch hunt. In general the media were very kind to him, I still wonder what would have happened if he'd written the letter to defend or give a character reference for a Catholic Priest or an Anglican vicar. It was a monumental (sound like Shane Ross there) error of judgement and showed his neediness, and (sorry EG) how Trinners heads just can't handle the real world :-)

I'm still waiting for the Rape Crisis centre or ISPCC to come out and hammer him, but then again.....

[Eminence Grise]

Spud, if you'd spent as long in Trinners as I have (10 years looking for the exit... slow learner, me!) you'd realise that that small plot of 40 acres is the real world!!

Not sure I entirely agree with you on Norris. I agree that it wasn't a media witch hunt, but his flaws and poor judgement were made public by somebody at this time for a political reason - it's been 19 years (and 4 or 5 Senate campaigns) since Nawi was convicted; your average "Concerned Mother of 6" riging Joe doesn't sit on that kind of info for that long.

Macy is right that Mitchell is being given an easier time by the media over his letter-writing indescretion. You might argue that what he did was consistent with the views of the people he represents as we voted to remove the death penalty from the constitution. I'd be pretty sure that most people think pleading for a life (meaning life!) sentence instead of execution is better than pleading for a reduced sentence for statutory rape. Or you could argue that the FG PR machine is a lot better at managing issues than DN's was.

[Spudulika]

Spud, if you'd spent as long in Trinners as I have (10 years looking for the exit... slow learner, me!) you'd realise that that small plot of 40 acres is the real world!!

Not sure I entirely agree with you on Norris. I agree that it wasn't a media witch hunt, but his flaws and poor judgement were made public by somebody at this time for a political reason - it's been 19 years (and 4 or 5 Senate campaigns) since Nawi was convicted; your average "Concerned Mother of 6" riging Joe doesn't sit on that kind of info for that long.

Macy is right that Mitchell is being given an easier time by the media over his letter-writing indescretion. You might argue that what he did was consistent with the views of the people he represents as we voted to remove the death penalty from the constitution. I'd be pretty sure that most people think pleading for a life (meaning life!) sentence instead of execution is better than pleading for a reduced sentence for statutory rape. Or you could argue that the FG PR machine is a lot better at managing issues than DN's was.

As a UCD grad and particpant (unbeaten) in a number of colours matches, always in TCD - Exam hall or JCR, oh and once in the new gym - I can be very biased, though I always bring guests to TCD and a couple of my best friends graduated from it. So I guess it's just age envy :-)

I agree (and said before) that there was a political motive for the leak, though the nature of this second one should have ruled him out anyway. In fact I can't believe his arrogance (he's not a stupid man) to think this was acceptable. And it does seem like it neatly matched up with his views on arab and greek pederasty, so what was he thinking? He still has gotten an easier ride than if it were you or I, or another politician or god forbid a Bishop!

Mitchell will get away with what he did because the party machines will churn on until they've made up our minds for us. FG now have the reins of power and wont' let go easily.

[Angus]

What is it with Irish liberals and Israel / palestine ? Why is this a huge issue ? In what parallel vortex does one's view on Israel have an impact on our presidential election.

Many many many years ago, I was young and needed the money - but I attended 2 Ogra FF meetings. In advance of the third, I got the agenda in the post, and the contents of the agenda ended my connection.

Item 3: Letter writing campaign to Israel

Bear in mind this was the early 90's in Dublin, so no local issues to worrk about - but clearly Yizhak Rabin was bricking himself that Ogra FF was on his case

Utterly utterly pathetic and emblematic of everything that is corrupt in Irish politics - engrossed in theory, fake principle, "taking positions", wrapped up in "issues", but egregiously unqualified and disinterested in actually governing or managing anything

[Spudulika]

That's a wee bit harsh Angus, surely you can understand why people might be a bit vexed on the topic of Palestine, and anyone who's been to a camp or "zone" will come back a little anti-Israel. I think many people in Ireland get het up basically because of the colonial overtones and unfairness of the situation, without actually realising that (and I am quite far from right wing when I say this) that we need a strong bulwark against the fanatical tide that is just a few miles down the road in Saudi. The Israeli and their backers/apologists behaviour has radicalised hundreds of thousands and this is a danger we see today. However in this debate there is little balance.

My own personal belief is that the topic of Israel suits everyone as it detracts from one of the final acts of ethnic cleansing from the 2nd world war - sending jews off to the desert. It would have been far better to settle them in a depopulated zone of Germany or Eastern Europe, however it didn't make sense to the leaders of the time, plus headbangers were pushing a zionist agenda which suited Stalin, Churchill et al.

[Angus]

I don't disagree that it is a very nasty situation for everyone involved - and I get that. What I don't get is why it has such importance for Irish liberal types; more than Yugoslavia, more than Rwanda, more than East Timor, more than Norn Iron, more than Turkey / Cyprus etc - more than virtually anything.

But back at the ranch, Norris was not done by a conspiracy - he was done by being foolish and by the staggeringly bad misjudgement for which he is renowned. Love him on TV / Radio and he adds to the gaiety of the nation and is entertaining etc - but as Prez ? No chance in hell

The role is all about tone and pitch - and he would be guaranteed to do or say something stupid

[BonnieShels]

And now Gaybo is seriously weighing in as a potential candidate now. Argh!

In the papers today that he has been getting serious funding offers.

So, who will I vote for with such an enlightening group of people as our potential Bill-signer.

[Lionel Ritchie]

And now Gaybo is seriously weighing in as a potential candidate now. Argh!

In the papers today that he has been getting serious funding offers.

So, who will I vote for with such an enlightening group of people as our potential Bill-signer.

Just heard him riffing with a mic in his face last night about the country's being ruined by "Brussels". Sounded like somebody from UKIP. He should save that bull and have a tilt at the Euros next time they roll around.

At the rate this thing is careering downhill now -I'd rather just have the Queen do the job for us. Better CV.

[BonnieShels]

Oh the irony. Sure remember what SF originally looked for. Oh the vindication of Griffith. ;)

[Eminence Grise]

Gents, you are not alone in discussing this.

Sir, – In the absence of serious contenders for the presidency, may I propose a superbly qualified candidate: Name: Liz Windsor. Qualifications: Has successfully done the job on neighbouring island for 62 years. Descended from Brian Bórú. Has the authority to unite Ireland by her signature. Offers middle way between Catholic and Presbyterian churches. Motivated to see Ireland flourish to avoid default on her banks’ loans of €100 billion. All problems solved! – Yours, etc,
http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/index.html#1224302231022

When you put it that way...

[Dodge]

Gay Byrne is the new favourite. Which is bad enough, before you realise that he'll be succeeded by Pat Kenny in 7/14 years time

[BonnieShels]

Just saw that new opinion poll. Democracy sux.

[Eminence Grise]

...then Tubridy around 2040-54... Followed by 28 years of Jedward to 2082.

Let's face it: this century is pretty much effed already!

Seriously wondering whether I'll end up drawing a box on the ballot paper, x-ing it and writing "none of the above" beside it. Not a single candidate so far I would genuinely want to see in the Aras.

[Macy]

Just saw that new opinion poll. Democracy sux.
Heard Stephen Collins on the lunchtime news saying that he thought it wasn't that good a poll for Byrne*. His logic was that a high profile candidate would expect to start very high and then gradually slip as the campaign went on. He also didn't think he wouldn't run, citing his statements about the EU last night as an example as to why he might not be suitable.

*His opinion was that it was probably best for Higgins overall. I don't get the big hate of Higgins myself, but it appears to me that the INM hacks don't like the thought of it (so that's a ringing in endorsement imo!)

[backstothewall]

Not sure about Byrne, have always considered him an insufferable dose, but he has 4 things going for him.

He has made a huge contribution to Irish life.
He isn't a politician
He isn't any of the other candidates
He will probably only do 1 term.

Its not like the office requires a politician, and it won't effect the running of the state if he dies in office. Therefore I don't see his old age as a drawback, a positive in fact because we will be able to replace him with someone better in 7 years.

And if we can start a trend of the office going to someone who has contributed to civic life, rather than a politician, it opens the way for someone else like that next time round. The likes of Niall Quinn or Seamus Heaney could do a fine job in Aras.

[BonnieShels]

Yeah not getting the dislike for Higgins. Have always liked him and surely a Galway United Supporter in the Aras wouldn't be a bad thing?

And with INM against, Macy you're right, all the more reason to vote for him.

It's not an inspiring line up but I think we are kidding ourselves in thinking it was ever anything thus.
Mary Banotti, Adi Roche, Lendahand Sr, Dana, heavens above!

I never minded Gaybo and his LLS was very very good. Remember P Flynn?
But I don't think I could suffer his sanctimony.
Plus if Mickey Martin sounded him out should that not preclude any right-minded person from voting for him.

[BonnieShels]

Another thing too, is it not a tad ironic that we now have more Gays in the race now AFTER Norris withdrew. Always the trailblazer so he was.

The airwaves have been bland without him. Come back Daithi!!!

[prince20]

I'm at a loss as to why Irish people would even consider putting Gay Byrne in the Aras. Nothing against the man but the whole presidency race has become a joke. Furthermore I know it's probably in our constitution but why do we even need a President?

[mypost]

We don't need a President, as we already have one. His name is Hermann Van Rompuy, a Belgian who rules us from a glass building in Brussels, though he was over here recently to chew the fat with the Taoiseach.

What we do need is a bill/law-signer, someone to go to Croker in September, and make a number of appearances at Lansdowne throughout the year. I don't think Gabriel Byrne will run, he will face all kinds of questions over exactly who is financing his bid, and I don't think he has the patience for all that at his age. I like the fact that he doesn't bend over for Brussels, like Mitchell does. But if he served 2 terms, he would be well into his 90's by the time it expired. With all that, I don't think he will run.

[culloty82]

The most bizarre stat is that 40% of voters would still give Norris a first-preference, rising to 50% for any preference - he can hardly make an 11th hour comeback at this stage?

[Spudulika]

...then Tubridy around 2040-54... Followed by 28 years of Jedward to 2082.

Let's face it: this century is pretty much effed already!

Seriously wondering whether I'll end up drawing a box on the ballot paper, x-ing it and writing "none of the above" beside it. Not a single candidate so far I would genuinely want to see in the Aras.

In Russia they have that choice - a box with "none of these" on it. I don't know how many people avail of it, especially as the boxes are normally pre-ticked in case anyone makes a mistake.

[Macy]

Its not like the office requires a politician
I don't know about that - his anti eu stuff could be a diplomatic incident waiting to happen. Remember the polish chuckle brothers a few years back, when the president refused to sign Lisbon into law, despite their parliament passing it?

It is a political role - you have to assess whether you sign legislation or refer it to the council of state. One of the "non politicians" in the race has already showed the dangers of a lack of knowledge when they said they'd refer a Finance Bill, which they can't bloody do.

[BonnieShels]

Eoghan Harris is pro-Gaybo.

That's my decision made.

[mypost]

I don't know about that - his anti eu stuff could be a diplomatic incident waiting to happen. Remember the polish chuckle brothers a few years back, when the president refused to sign Lisbon into law, despite their parliament passing it?

It is a political role - you have to assess whether you sign legislation or refer it to the council of state. One of the "non politicians" in the race has already showed the dangers of a lack of knowledge when they said they'd refer a Finance Bill, which they can't bloody do.

It doesn't matter what they said, all he has to do, is check whether x bill is compatible with the EU Constitution, which 99.99% of the time it will be. It's healthy to have someone willing to admit that Brussels is mad, but Eurosceptic views mattered pre-Lisbon, they don't matter now. Brussels orders what they want done, and it's done, like it or not. That's what we signed up for. The role is ceremonial now, not political.

[Spudulika]

I like Gay Byrne as a public person, privately he's watery and cold. He has been one of our greatest figures for change, he has challenged many of the assumptions and vagaries of Irish life, I still remember very clearly his statements on Telecom Eireann (maybe only a few posters here will remember this). There was a time when you could talk for as long as you wanted on your landline for a set cost. TE decided to change this to time limited calls, yet gave a sop saying you could talk as long as you wanted outside of business hours. Gay Byrne too a stance against this and his exact words were "People, if you let them do this, they won't stop, and within a few years, you'll be paying through the nose and the company sold out from under you."

Some actions of his I didn't like, but that's the same for any person looking for public office, but I'd vote for him, unless he accepts FF backing. Many people under the age of 25 don't remember how good he was. But if it comes to a choice between him, Gay Mitchell and Michael Higgins, Gaybo's the only man.

[Angus]

The gig is all about tone and pitch - something which through the medium of the media, Gaybo is excellent at - what we simply do not know is whether he can play mano a mano at a diplomatic level - when the queen, or prince, or prez of someplace tips up and Gaybo is told to be on message to promote Ireland Inc, can he do it ? Would he come across as a man of substance ?

In front of the camera - no question - behind the closed doors in the heavily nuanced world of diplomatic nicety - we simply do not know. The role is irrelevant from an executive management perspective - but can be made very valuable by the right candidate and the right selection of issues and circumstances to promote. Now I don't mean the sanctimonous self aggrandising, showboating of Robinson (she has helped us to re-imagine Ireland, me arse) - McAleese got it just right

Can Gay play at that level ?

Not buying Gaybo - not buying any of them - and wasn't buying Norris

Of the Pols, the least worst is Michael D

[mypost]

The gig is all about tone and pitch - something which through the medium of the media, Gaybo is excellent at - what we simply do not know is whether he can play mano a mano at a diplomatic level - when the queen, or prince, or prez of someplace tips up and Gaybo is told to be on message to promote Ireland Inc, can he do it ? Would he come across as a man of substance ?

McAleese got it just right

Can Gay play at that level ?

McAleese made her fair share of slip ups. Not quite as embarrassing though as foreseeing the foreign press reporting that we elected a 77-year old chat/game show presenter to sign the state's bills for 14 years.

[Spudulika]

Well, the world superpower elected a B movie actor, a recovering alcoholic with a double figure iq. So Gaybo would be a step or two above them.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, apparently Gaybo will announce on Wednesday that he's not running - better to wait a few days to see if it's true that Gay Mitchell is seriously on the outs with FG.

edit: Gaybo won't run - the FF kiss of death did it!

[Angus]

McAleese made her fair share of slip ups. .

I stand to be corrected but I cannot remember anything specific - but I am not saying you are wrong - just can't recall anything.....there were controversies all right - protestant churches, golf with loyalists etc - but cannot recall a slip up - but happy to be corrected

So, Gaybo is out - in other news, bears defecate in wooded areas and it will rain in Ireland in the future

[Angus]

Well, the world superpower elected a B movie actor, a recovering alcoholic with a double figure iq. So Gaybo would be a step or two above them.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, apparently Gaybo will announce on Wednesday that he's not running - better to wait a few days to see if it's true that Gay Mitchell is seriously on the outs with FG.

edit: Gaybo won't run - the FF kiss of death did it!

Movie Actor - yes it did. But he ran a superb campaign. Interestingly I have a book on Carter where the author suggests that the CIA actively campaigned to keep the Iranian hostages locked up until after the election - the thinking being that if they came out before Carter would have got a boost - but alas not; what a coincidence

Meanwhile back at the ranch, whatever we say about Reagan and Bush, they both had serious executive experience as governers of vert large states. Yes both were vacant and dangerous - but their on paper experience was faultless

They both proved to be bad presidents - although current history is kinder to reagan

[Macy]

Byrne withdraws http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0813/breaking120.html

Gas had barely been lit and already he couldn't take the heat in the kitchen...

[Mr A]

Thank feck for that. Couldn't see anything to recommend him at all.

Would love to see more people enter the field.

[BonnieShels]

I'd like to see David Norris...

...never mind.

Delighted the spectre of Byrne is gone.

[dahamsta]

I wasn't going to bother voting in the presidential election, but if Gay Byrne is running I will, just to keep the gobsheen out of it.

EDIT: Didn't see that he'd pulled out. Good riddance.