2011 Presidential Election

[DannyInvincible]

Be interesting to run a poll on Foot.ie, given the subject matter and associated stereotypes. Is the candidate list complete yet?

The football world being the last bastion of homophobia and all that? It doesn't say a great deal for the global game when Anton Hysén is the only openly-gay professional footballer I'm aware of worldwide. I'd imagine the great thinkers of Foot.ie are a bit more socially enlightened and progressive than your average football fan, mind. I'd have no qualms with backing Norris, although I could probably do with reading up a bit on his campaign.

[Macy]

The premise that not being a Norris fan is equal to homophobia is nonsense. If I won't vote for Mary Davis, does it make me anti people with intellectual disabilities?

[John83]

The premise that not being a Norris fan is equal to homophobia is nonsense. If I won't vote for Mary Davis, does it make me anti people with intellectual disabilities?
Who equated the two?

[DannyInvincible]

The premise that not being a Norris fan is equal to homophobia is nonsense.

Not what I was suggesting at all, if that's your implication. Obviously, many factors come into making a decision and there's no obligation to vote for Norris just in order to prove one isn't homophobic. I was simply making a comment, pretty much irrelevant to Norris' campaign for the Irish presidency, on the football world in general given dahamsta's mention of the social stereotype that plagues the game; that being the perception of the sport as one of the last bastions of homophobia.

To clarify, if I'm not mistaken, Norris would be a relatively popular candidate for the presidency. Well, before the attempted smear anyway. If a poll was instigated on this site and he was found to be disproportionately unpopular amongst a group of Irish football supporters, then one might have to ask further questions as to the reasoning behind this.

[Macy]

Who equated the two?
Is it not implicit with the talk of stereotypes? Maybe I'm the only one taking it that way, so fair enough.


If a poll was instigated on this site and he was found to be disproportionately unpopular amongst a group of Irish football supporters, then one might have to ask further questions as to the reasoning behind this.
There's too many variables though to make any assumptions, even if it was a proper poll of football supporters, rather than internet.

[Eminence Grise]

The current issue of Phoenix (http://www.thephoenix.ie/phoenix/welcome.do - subscription needed) reckons Pat Cox might get the FG nod, but may have to join the party first. With Bruton and Kelly out, only McGuinness is left, and she isn’t seen as a likely winner.

I’d back Norris against Cox, even with the FG machine behind him.*

@DI – do you not think that unpopularity among Irish football fans is a given anyway?

If he supports an English or Scottish team, he’ll be seen as a barstooler.
Unless he can produce ticket stubs in l.s.d. for Irish internationals in Dalyer, he’s one of the Olé Olé brigade. If he can produce those stubs, he's a throwback to the black and white era and barstoolers will ridicule him.
If he supports a LoI club, 20 sets of supporters will think it’s the wrong one, but respect him for having one. Barstoolers will ridicule him.
If he supports a junior club, hardly anybody will know, but barstoolers will ridicule him.

And if he supports any of these, he’ll have to start following the Dubs to get the GAA vote.:p

Edit
* Yes, reading it back, I realise that this has tremendous innuendo potential, but y'know what I mean.

[dahamsta]

What John83 said. Not voting for Norris doesn't make someone a homophobe, but homophobes are unlikely to vote for him. They're completely different statements.

And yes, there's a lot of homophobia in football - the chants are pathetic in this day and age - which is why I think it'd be interesting. Maybe when the list is complete.

[Macy]

What John83 said. Not voting for Norris doesn't make someone a homophobe, but homophobes are unlikely to vote for him. They're completely different statements.

And yes, there's a lot of homophobia in football - the chants are pathetic in this day and age - which is why I think it'd be interesting. Maybe when the list is complete.
But if we're accepting the fact that not voting for Norris doesn't make someone a homophobe, I don't see what the latter would prove about homophobia in football? It's that I'm just not getting (possibly due to tiredness :) )

[dahamsta]

I don't think it'd prove anything, I'm just interested. Foot.ie is hardly academia!

I wonder what kind of a difference in results you'd get between here and the League forum, or the league forum here and the league forum on Boards. Maybe Foot.ie should be academia... :)

[DannyInvincible]

There's too many variables though to make any assumptions, even if it was a proper poll of football supporters, rather than internet.

That's true, which is why I'd penetrate the reasoning further by asking questions rather than jumping to assumptive conclusions. :)

[Macy]

Fairly damning column by Waters in the Times today - it could be the denial rather than the content that does for his campaign.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0603/1224298323687.html

[Cuyahoga]

Fairly damning column by Waters in the Times today - it could be the denial rather than the content that does for his campaign.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0603/1224298323687.html
Journalists will always stick up for each other.

[Macy]

Journalists will always stick up for each other.
No doubt, and I'm certainly no fan of Waters. However, Norris would want to be pretty sure that a tape still doesn't exist, if he's going to carry on denying it.

[Eminence Grise]

I read that this morning, and the first thing that struck me was that Waters was doing his best to take himself out of the firing line. Acting with editorial rigour - despite being only a consultant editor to a young, inexperienced editor - trusting the journalist who he knew by reputation only, concern for a political figure (this is the guy who published a foul-mouthed Haughey interview in Hotpress!), not wanting to publicise a dynamite story... Magill would have killed for a big story like that to boost circulation!!

I notice that he covers himself by saying that he only saw extracts from the interview - not the full transcript, and never heard the recording. Maybe I'm cynical where Waters is concerned, but I find that if I disagree with what he writes then usually all is right in my world!

So much speculation. But it's four days since Joe Duffy, and HLB still hasn't released any tapes. I'm surmising that she's turning the attic upside down looking for them, or they no longer exist, or somebody's sitting on them waiting for a more opportune moment. Time will tell.

[Hurt Locker]

Fairly damning column by Waters in the Times today - it could be the denial rather than the content that does for his campaign.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0603/1224298323687.html

A real horror story! I've often delivered parcels to John Waters house in Castleknock, he has stuck me as a pure gentleman, if he has abnormal information on Norris, he is doing right to inform the public.

[dahamsta]

No doubt, and I'm certainly no fan of Waters. However, Norris would want to be pretty sure that a tape still doesn't exist, if he's going to carry on denying it.

Personally I think the "I haven't got something to play it on" is pretty damning in and of itself, and shows the level of intelligence and/or snakiness involved. Someone out there has a player, hand the damn thing over and prove it or stfu, imho.

[centre mid]

Half remembered interviews from 10 years ago and a mislaid tape. If every candidate expressed their opinions honestly and openly none of them would get a vote. The text of the interview reads risqué at best, there is nothing to suggest David Norris endorses paedophilia.

The timing of this is suspect to say the least. He ran for the senate 3 times since that interview and the restaurant critic decides to bring it up now.

If he gets on the ballot he will still get a high % of the vote, maybe not over 51% but he wont be far off. Pat Cox is too close to the EU & the Lisbon Treaty still and with quite a bit of anti-EU feeling about I think he may struggle although it looks as though FG want him to run.

FF have no credible candidate as far as I can see. Its a pity Fergus Finlay probably wont get on the ballot. I like him since he went from Labour press secretary to charity work, I think he would make a very good President but would possibly be too politicised for the Governments liking.

[Eminence Grise]

Has anybody here actually read the Magill article? I'm surprised that if it's as damning as HLB claims that it hasn't been reprinted somewhere since Tuesday.

[dahamsta]

Half remembered interviews from 10 years ago and a mislaid tape.

She says she has the tape, but not a machine to play it on. Presumably no-one else in the entire world has one either.

[Spudulika]

The entire piece was read by Pat Kenny the other morning I thought (unless I misheard it). It is quite blunt in parts, a little creepy though the ending is extremely positive for David Norris. I think the bit that really is the grist to the mill is him saying he'd have appreciated or liked an ancient Greek scenario in his life where an older gay man would introduce him to the ways of the world, gay style. Now he frankly stated he'd have liked this, to Pat Kenny, though Greek style would have been slightly more on the paedophilic side than what would be deemed acceptable.

I've always found David Norris personable, intelligent and progressive. It'll only really be pushed that he fought for gay rights, Joyce and Georgian Dublin, though he has done so much more and still does. I will vote for him, though I'm beginning to wonder if get progressively more shrill and obnoxious as Joan Burton did before the election.

[Hurt Locker]

In the case of the 'Magill' interview with Helen Lucy Burke, it would have to be wondered why he didn't begin, or even threaten, legal action at the time. Her tape of the interview is now missing but would obviously still have been in existence then.

Norris was one of the very few people to defend poet Cathal O Searcaigh over the nature of his relationships with teenagers in Nepal.

I'm pretty sure he will not be the next president of Ireland.

[culloty82]

Be interesting to run a poll on Foot.ie, given the subject matter and associated stereotypes. Is the candidate list complete yet?

Not yet, but unless some complete unknown declares, everyone has pretty much ruled themselves in or out. Most likely Máiread McGuinness for FG, now that Kelly and Bruton have withdrawn, FF seem to be backing away from running anyone, could possibly get behind Gallagher. Can't see the Norris controversy lasting until October, in any case the four Dublin councils will see him on the ballot paper - if it does affect him, Michael D will probably benefit most.

[Eminence Grise]

Sam Smyth giving the HLB article some balanced coverage on TodayFM right now. Dunphy's show on NewsTalk is just one step short of looking for a rope and a convenient lamp post. I swear, if John Waters voice keeps going up and up with blustery anger only dogs will be able hear him.... Robert Fisk doing his best to be impartial.

[BonnieShels]

Waters is on Dunphy defending his position. He said that he asked HLB to run the interview by Norris several times as he thought it would kill Norris' career.

Hmmmmm... that doesn't sit right...

[Hurt Locker]

It is clear that the Norris campaign had the momentum of an express train, before it has been derailed so spectacularly.


Mr Norris himself believes that the re-emergence of the Magill article was carefully orchestrated and designed to cause him maximum damage.

However, the truth is that the article has been bandied around the information super highway for months. Last October, a site wholly dedicated to opposing Mr Norris was set up.

Mr Norris describes Pope John Paul II as "an instrument of evil".

I can see where John Waters is coming from he is a deeply religious man.

[DannyInvincible]

Last October, a site wholly dedicated to opposing Mr Norris was set up.

You have a link for this?

[Hurt Locker]

You have a link for this?

HTH

http://www.davidnorris4president.com/

[centre mid]

Martin McAleese might get FG nomination here (http://www.thejournal.ie/fianna-fail-may-not-run-aras-candidate-as-fine-gael-may-opt-for-martin-mcaleese-149506-Jun2011/?utm_source=shortlink)

[dahamsta]

Her tape of the interview is now missing but would obviously still have been in existence then.

This is the second time you've stated this. I watched her claim on RTE last week that she had a copy of the tape but not a player for it. Do you have evidence for your claim to the contrary?

That site is run by the Burkes btw, nutjobs plain and true. Equating that with "bandying around the web" is like saying there's a wellspring of support for killing jews, because you read it on st0rmfr0nt.

[Mr A]

Mr Norris describes Pope John Paul II as "an instrument of evil".


Erm... a lot of terrible stuff happened on JP II's watch which the church facilitated.. I think Mr Norris has a pretty reasonable view here. On the other hand the church is rushing through his transition to sainthood.

So not so surprising that RC hardliners would take every opportunity to attack somebody like Norris.

[Hurt Locker]

Sorry, didn't know she found the tape, i'd say Michael D Higgins will be rubbing his hands with delight.

Again it would have to be wondered why he didn't begin, or even threaten, legal action against the Burkes last October?


If you think the Pope is an instrument of evil, thats your choice. I don't.

Mr Norris also says "Ratzinger, who is, in his mindset, a Nazi".

[bennocelt]

It is clear that the Norris campaign had the momentum of an express train, before it has been derailed so spectacularly.


Mr Norris himself believes that the re-emergence of the Magill article was carefully orchestrated and designed to cause him maximum damage.

However, the truth is that the article has been bandied around the information super highway for months. Last October, a site wholly dedicated to opposing Mr Norris was set up.

Mr Norris describes Pope John Paul II as "an instrument of evil".

I can see where John Waters is coming from he is a deeply religious man.

So what?
All this post is just a rehash of what was in todays Indo

[Hurt Locker]

I like to keep up to date by reading the sindo as well other papers. I think its better than just waffling. I'll make sure to read up on all candidates before I vote.

Religion is an issue here if you can't see it fair enough.

In all fairness people in the Republic of Ireland have voted in a fair amount of shady geezers over the years, why not Mr. Norris.

To be honest he never was going to get my vote, due to the fact he wants Ireland to join the British Commonwealth.

I no issue whats so ever of Mr. Norris been a homosexaul (my best friends father is a homosexual) or the fact he is a member of the Church of Ireland.

[bennocelt]

I like to keep up to date by reading the sindo as well other papers. I think its better than just waffling. I'll make sure to read up on all candidates before I vote.

Religion is an issue here if you can't see it fair enough.

In all fairness people in the Republic of Ireland have voted in a fair amount of shady geezers over the years, why not Mr. Norris.

To be honest he never was going to get my vote, due to the fact he wants Ireland to join the British Commonwealth.

I no issue whats so ever of Mr. Norris been a homosexaul (my best friends father is a homosexual) or the fact he is a member of the Church of Ireland.

I think its not got to do with religion at all but the fact that a lot of people in Ireland cant get round the fact that we might have a gay prez

[Hurt Locker]

I don't think any major religion accepts homosexuality, Mr.Norris should accept this will never happen in the Catholic church and by insulting the Pope is not going to help him get elected. I don't think any country ever had a gay president. Irish people got around the fact we have a gay senator quickly!

[dahamsta]

So now he's a "shady geezer"? You do realise your posts read like copy from the Star, right?

[pineapple stu]

I don't think any major religion accepts homosexuality, Mr.Norris should accept this will never happen in the Catholic church and by insulting the Pope is not going to help him get elected. I don't think any country ever had a gay president. Irish people got around the fact we have a gay senator quickly!
On the bit in bold, Iceland's current president (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3hanna_Sigur%C3%B0ard%C3%B3ttir) is gay. There's also a theory that James Buchanan, 15th President of the United States, was gay.

However, on the post as a whole - including the bit in bold - what's your point? I don't think any of what you posted is actually relevant to the discussion or the presidency.

[Hurt Locker]

On the bit in bold, Iceland's current president (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3hanna_Sigur%C3%B0ard%C3%B3ttir) is gay. There's also a theory that James Buchanan, 15th President of the United States, was gay.

However, on the post as a whole - including the bit in bold - what's your point? I don't think any of what you posted is actually relevant to the discussion or the presidency.

I'm only posting what I read in the papers. Do a bit of lateral thinking, you might see the trees from the wood.



So now he's a "shady geezer"? You do realise your posts read like copy from the Star, right?
lol, I could have called him something else but I don't want another warning!

[pineapple stu]

I'm only posting what I read in the papers. Do a bit of lateral thinking, you might see the trees from the wood.
You're only posting what you readin the papers, and you suggest I try some lateral thinking?!

[Hurt Locker]

You're only posting what you readin the papers, and you suggest I try some lateral thinking?!

I don't think your post is actually relevant to the discussion or the presidency:rolleyes:

Rubbish bin I suggest!

Have an nice day.

[Spudulika]

Bennocelt, I don't think the majority are too bothered with his lifestyle choice, if he wants to be gay, so be it, but people can and have looked past it, in fact I'd say there is a good lump of the population who'd vote for him only because he's gay - simply to thumb their noses at the establishment and churches. I can see the benefit in having a relatively erudite and decent person like Norris as President, the pink economy would bloom and there would be a different slant given to the Irish situation. However there has to be a realisation that his private/academic thoughts have no impact on legislation - he cannot force a new law to drop the age of consent (which I heard on Radio 1 being used to slap him with), he cannot force young boys under the wings of older men, this is all nonsense. He does need to stop the populist (now) rants against the Catholic church as this will cost him long term. If he wants to represent the entire country, then he has to understand that despite what the meeja tell us, the population is yet to shake off the centuries of Catholic dogma and it's all about balance.

I don't see why restating what has been in the media (Sindo or otherwise) is such a crime, I didn't read any papers over the weekend having switched off my brain from the sensationalising aspect of this case. Plus there was a big match on, so that took precedence.

[Macy]

in fact I'd say there is a good lump of the population who'd vote for him only because he's gay - simply to thumb their noses at the establishment and churches.
Too right - the amount of fundamentalist catholics reacting to this is nearly enough for him to get my vote! I really can't beleive that someone would link to that Norris site - imo that crap doesn't even deserve it's link to remain on foot.ie.

I still don't agree with the whole "is ireland ready for a Gay president" stuff if though that's the only reason you'd be against Norris, but the nature of the campaign against him is beginning to back fire into us (progressive non homophobes) v them (religious fundamentalist nutjobs). Which is a pretty bad state of affairs for demoracy.

[Spudulika]

You've hit the nail on the head Macy, what is the point about "is Ireland ready for a gay President", that's not even an issue and I believe that it's a purely meeja creation, the same as "is Ireland mature enough for the Queen to visit", it's not the point. The point is that we've go to move on with getting the country working and prospering, not about what our leaders choose for their lifestyle.

I know from my own family that my Mam (who is very liberal and always thinks for herself) won't vote for Norris because she doesn't believe he would be the best Ambassador for Ireland. My Dad (who is liberal but a strong Catholic) will vote for him because he knows the man and says that this would be the ultimate reward for his work and also be a great person to represent Ireland. Anybody with a brain will make their own decision, the meeja will do their best to push more sales and get more advertising, though he needs to be a lot more intelligent in how he handles his campaign.

[Hurt Locker]

It's hardly the biggest smear campaign ever. Mr Norris did say what it's reported he said. But he's running for president, if he said Bohs were a crap football team it would be brought up and discussed. Best option at this stage might be to convince people that his views have changed in the 7 to 10 years, but Mr Norris has never apologised for anything he's said, very arrogent and non diplomatic.

Pat Cox is now now the bookies favorite massive change in just a week. Liberal elites v Religious conservatism is just too simplistic a view in modern day Ireland. Neither would have enough votes on their own to elect a president. From the people I have been talking with, single people seem to show some empity towards the Mr. Norris situation, people with a family seem to be showing serious caution with his statements, they seem creeped-out, will cost him votes and transfers (I'm talking in general here).

Can't wait to hear the tape it will show who's telling the truth.

[culloty82]

The story has been doing the Internet rounds for months, so there's no doubt that the essentials are true, very suspicious though that the tape hasn't been handed over, after all the country hardly lacks cassette players. Doesn't seem to have affected his ratings - a poll yesterday had him on 39%, double Cox's numbers, he'll need to be more circumspect in his dealings. McGuinness is probably the best placed FG candidate in that she'll pick up rural and urban votes, so could sneak a win on transfers, just think Cox has too much PD and European baggage to win the nomination. The latest name mentioned is Niall O'Dowd, the Irish-American newspaper editor, but would have thought he's wasting his time.

[Macy]

Doesn't seem to have affected his ratings - a poll yesterday had him on 39%, double Cox's numbers, he'll need to be more circumspect in his dealings. McGuinness is probably the best placed FG candidate in that she'll pick up rural and urban votes, so could sneak a win on transfers, just think Cox has too much PD and European baggage to win the nomination.
Not sure polls are that valid at this stage - for example I'd take it had Cox and McGuinness on it, when they both won't be running.

[Angus]

Question - leaving side David Norris private life and his general enjoyment and articulate banter he gives on tv and radio etc, what qualifies him for this role ? This is not a rhetorical question - I genuinely don't know what his qualifications or credentials for this role are ?

I love listening to him - and he adds to the general gaiety (sic) of the nation and is articulate and intelligent. But by that rationale, half of the posters on this forum should be candidates......so if anybody knows him, please outline his credentials

Having said that, McAleese had no stand out credentials and has been superb in the role

[Hurt Locker]

Having said that, McAleese had no stand out credentials

I'd say the people who voted for her would not agree, or am I taking you out of context?:rofl:

TBH Roy Keane or Shane Mc Gowan have better credentials than Mr. Norris.

[bennocelt]

Having said that, McAleese had no stand out credentials and has been superb in the role

wow:o

[Spudulika]

Question - leaving side David Norris private life and his general enjoyment and articulate banter he gives on tv and radio etc, what qualifies him for this role ? This is not a rhetorical question - I genuinely don't know what his qualifications or credentials for this role are ?

I love listening to him - and he adds to the general gaiety (sic) of the nation and is articulate and intelligent. But by that rationale, half of the posters on this forum should be candidates......so if anybody knows him, please outline his credentials

Having said that, McAleese had no stand out credentials and has been superb in the role

Angus, you've asked the questions that the meeja should be asking, but won't as they won't sell adverts!

Why would I vote for DN, what has he done?
1. He was a leader in the fight to save Wood Quay. He, along with Mary Robinson and John Bradley, and FX Martin, lay down in front of bulldozers and were kicked senseless in the bid to get them out of the way. He spoke massive amounts of sense about how we were destroying the past for future generations and how short term gain was killing long term profit. Also he was one of those who pointed out that the destruction of the most significant Viking settlement in the World did not have to be destroyed so completely.
2. He asked questions in the Seanaid in 1989-90 formally complaining about the shenanigans (his words) of the then DPP in relation to sex abuse cases in a major North Dublin Primary and Secondary School. He challenged the CB's to come forward with explanations and went so far as to go to the Gardai in the area to register a complaint.
3. He has been involved in a number of very charitable causes and not been seen to do so. I can name 2 that can be followed up on including the right for women to be allowed box (anyone who went to NUI Maynooth between 1997-99 can verify this). The second was in raising funds for an animal shelter in Ashtown.
4. Academically, while narrowly published, he is very respected abroad, in the Centre of Irish Studies in Voronezh a number of his papers are used for end of year tests - I always said that if you can understand what the heck he's on about then you get a 1st class honour!

I believe he is a decent person, who needs to calm himself down, who can be a great ambassador for Ireland and who can really help our economy. However I do fear that his chance has gone and we'll be stuck with a party animal, but not the good Road Trip kind.