Rugby now more popular than football AND GAA?!

[Murfinator]

The disparity from viewership ratings between tournaments and qualifiers/friendlies only goes to further highlight that soccer has become an event driven interest in this country, rather than something with a concrete year round following like it used to have. A bit like people who don't follow athletics at all but will watch the Olympics, its not a sign of health. The disparity in comparison between RWC viewiership and 6 nations or even test internationals is quite small, the rugby audience has a far less conditional interest.

[Dodge]

There's no bunting up on houses for Rugby. That settles it for me

[Eminence Grise]

There's no bunting up on houses for Rugby. That settles it for me

Eurgh! God forbid. Bunting lowers property prices in leafy suburbia, doncha know?

[geysir]

Both codes, football and rugby, are playing against current world champions.

To win
All Blacks 1/40
Spain 2/7

[Serb]

Both codes, football and rugby, are playing against current world champions.

To win
All Blacks 1/40
Spain 2/7

It's a different game. Upsets in rugby are far less likely as reflected by the odds. There's virtually no chance a team outside the current top 12 would get a result against a team inside the top 12 in rugby. In football, we've seen teams like Lithuania beat Czech Republic 1-0 in the most recent qualifiers despite there being 61 places difference in their world ranking. That just wouldn't happen in rugby.

[Lionel Ritchie]

The disparity from viewership ratings between tournaments and qualifiers/friendlies only goes to further highlight that soccer has become an event driven interest in this country, rather than something with a concrete year round following like it used to have. A bit like people who don't follow athletics at all but will watch the Olympics, its not a sign of health. In a tangentially related aside I think this relates to rock'n'roll as well. I happen to despise music festivals but have seen their upsurgence (recently blunted ...yay!!!) since the turn of century correlate with a fall away of attendances at the stand-alone "gig" as though a modification of the context in which people consume live music events has occured ...namely if it doesn't involve funky wellies, **** sound and a percieved 'rite of passgage' then they're not going.


There's no bunting up on houses for Rugby. That settles it for me
I get the impression that's more of a Dublin phenomenon anyway. Though I can think of local (i.e. Limerick) 'characters of note' who bunt for ALL sports + Eurovision.

[OwlsFan]

Rugby team stuffed 8-0 or was it 9-0 by World Champions. International team in crisis?

New Zealand police give out about the conduct of the Irish rugby fans there. Much maligned Irish soccer fans praised by local police. Castigated at home though especially by Dion Fanning who says as he disclaims the rugby fans "loike these skobes working on building sites in NZ with no interest in rugby and who couldn't tell Drico from Darce, in loike dayloight".

Joking aside not a good few weeks for both codes despite the "nearly one" a couple weeks ago. Hopefully the Olympics might bring us something to shout about.

[SkStu]

Rugby team stuffed 8-0 or was it 9-0 by World Champions. International team in crisis?

New Zealand police give out about the conduct of the Irish rugby fans there. Much maligned Irish soccer fans praised by local police. Castigated at home though especially by Dion Fanning who says as he disclaims the rugby fans "loike these skobes working on building sites in NZ with no interest in rugby and who couldn't tell Drico from Darce, in loike dayloight".

Joking aside not a good few weeks for both codes despite the "nearly one" a couple weeks ago. Hopefully the Olympics might bring us something to shout about.

Surely you mean "something to sing about"??

[Stuttgart88]

What was the issue with Irish fans in NZ? I didn't hear about that.

[IsMiseSean]

Drunken behaviour of some Irish rugby fans 'disappointing' (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0619/1224318196069.html)

[Stuttgart88]

Just wondering whether there was a riot in Warsaw last night? Maybe Matt williams and Shane Horgan would know.

[BonnieShels]

Ooooh.

Controversial.

[paul_oshea]

"Google has announced that 'Euro 2012' and 'Katie Taylor' were the most-searched queries in Ireland this year"

where is murfinator now.

[Dodge]

"Google has announced that 'Euro 2012' and 'Katie Taylor' were the most-searched queries in Ireland this year"

where is murfinator now.

Rugby fans rarely google, they think they know it all already

[Dodge]

(and yeah I've never let irony get in the way of a good joke)

[paul_oshea]

Rugby fans rarely google, they think they know it all already

Good joke, because you can change it for anything really, right?

[Irish_Praha]

Good joke, because you can change it for anything really, right?

To something like:

Rugby fans rarely Bing because it's sh!te.

[tetsujin1979]

bumping this again, good article article from McDonnell today on the popularity of football at the moment: http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/daniel-mcdonnell-soccer-still-the-biggest-ticket-29582198.html
Interesting point that midweek games keep pubs busy (or busier than they would be) in Autumn/Winter

[Stuttgart88]

Neil Francis' piece in the Sindo on the likely death of pro rugby in Ireland and the 6 Nations if the Anglo French proposals succeed was interesting. I think the conclusion was sensationalist but the discussion on finances and the club versus national union conflict was interesting.

[Dodge]

Any links Stutts?

[ArdeeBhoy]

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/neil-francis-we-need-an-original-thinker-29105514.html

[Stuttgart88]

This is the link. AB's links another article!

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/irb-needs-to-call-this-bluff-29580346.html

NEIL FRANCIS – 15 SEPTEMBER 2013

Most of you will never have heard of Continental Illinois Bank. It failed in the 1980s and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation had to make a strategic intervention in conjunction with the Federal Revenue Bank to save the bank – back then rated seventh in the USA. Quite simply the bank was "too big to fail" because of the interconnections and critical function it had with all the other majors – the fallout or the failure would have had such adverse and catastrophic consequences that regulatory bodies had no choice.


The Heineken Cup has been the backbone of the professional game since 1995. If it had not been in existence for those 18 years, the professional game in the northern hemisphere would have faltered and fallen away. The critical function of the competition is such that if it stopped at the end of this season, it would signal the end of the pro game at all levels. The competition is simply too big to fail.

Sad to relate but there are some people who are prepared to gamble with the Heineken Cup's very existence just to have more money to cover the deficit of the English game, which is an unworkable model as it consistently shows.

The performance of the 12 English clubs in this year's Premiership tells a story (see panel). For the last reporting period the Premiership clubs lost a combined total of £16.2m (€19m) down from £21m (€24.7m) the previous year. Retained losses on their balance sheets from the previous 18 years of professional rugby wouldn't be in our national debt's league, but they would make for very unpleasant reading.

It is hard to interpret just how accurate those accounts are because it is hard to know how the £4m annual subvention from the RFU – which goes to all of the 12 Premiership clubs – is treated in the accounts. Nor is it easy to ascertain how much money the sugar daddies have to stump up on a regular basis just to keep their clubs going.

That kind of financial haemorrhaging is unsustainable and the turkeys who threw their money into these clubs have used their umbrella group to try to scrabble extra income from wherever they can get it. And to hell with the consequences and the greater good of the game elsewhere. Little wonder that Nigel Wray, whose club Saracens lost £5.6m last year, is one of the most vocal in the English press.

One of the things that annoyed me most about the recent posturing was that Premiership Rugby's (PRL) Mark McCafferty and the unspeakable Quentin Smith launched their campaign on the day before the ERC met last Wednesday. If I ever get anal polyps, I will know what to call them.

Unquestionably it is amateurish and quite tiresome, but most of our national dailies ran with the story which was covered by English journalists Gavin Mairs and Chris Hewlett, or worse, carried no byline at all. No one is calling for those sports editors to observe their patriotic duty, pointing out that there was no objectivity or even a piece to counter the propaganda. A free run for the English journos telling the Irish people that the Heineken Cup was dead and inviting us to join an Anglo-French competition.

Funny that the two English stakeholders turned up at the meeting on Wednesday. I know Peter Wheeler – he is a good fella – he represents PRL on the board. But there is something I don't understand. The ERC is a €50m turnover company – why would a board member of that company be trying to shut that company down while trying to establish a rival organisation? Doesn't make sense to me.

I don't think the French are quite as interested in this as the English. The Ligue Nationale de Rugby (the French equivalent of PRL) have a window of opportunity between now and December to withdraw from their current TV deal with Canal+. Be-in Sports – a Qatari TV sports entity – has entered the market and has signalled that it will bid twice the €27m rights fees. If that happens the French won't give a damn about what the divvy is in the Heineken Cup – discussions are in train as we speak.

Currently, the divvy of circa €44m goes along the following lines: England gets €11m, France €12m, Ireland €6.6m, Wales €5m, Scotland €5m and Italy €4.5m

Of that, 85 per cent is on a pre-ordained and agreed basis and 15 per cent on merit, i.e. if a country's teams get to the play-offs or all the way to the final. England and France got €23m of the pot. The Rabo sides got €21m between four of them. How much more do England and France want? An extra €7m to €10m? Hardly seems worthwhile scrapping for something in the region of €3m to €5m.

The Anglo-French want the split to be a third each for them and a third between all four Rabo sides You can see why the Rabo sides are holding firm. A compromise will come, but at what cost?

In negotiations like this, if you blink you are dead. The Rabo sides have to stand together. This might not be a charitable thing to say but I would keep an eye on the Welsh – what do they say about keeping your friends close and your enemies closer?

If there is one nation open to a deal, Wales is the one that could be most tempted – even by the English. What would Ireland have to give up? Currently, our three competitive sides are ranked first (Leinster), sixth (Munster) and seventh (Ulster). It is inconceivable that one of those sides won't be included in a new Heineken Cup. Northampton are the only English side ranked in the top 10. How do you reconcile the fact that they should get six clubs in if they have only one in the top 10?

Do I think Scottish and Italian sides are good enough to have two teams in the competition? No, I don't. Do I think it is important to have them there? Yes, I do. Do we need to compromise? No, we don't, not when the future of the Six Nations is at stake.

This whole episode is a great bluff by PRL – they have nothing. They have no television rights. They cannot, under regulation 13.2 of the IRB broadcasting rights, negotiate or enter into any broadcasting rights without the express permission of their union. All parties would also end up in court if they tried to renege on the TV deal with Sky – a deal that both English shareholders signed this year.

The English and French businessmen have no interest in the Six Nations – they see their clubs as commercial enterprises, they don't care about the game above or below and they, particularly the English, need extra money to stem their huge losses. And they don't care how they go about achieving this or the lasting damage they will undoubtedly do.

[Stuttgart88]

If the unions of the Six Nations allow these people to dictate to them it means they have effectively ceded control of a power to them. It will affirm the death of the Six Nations and they hope (wrongly) the advent of the rise of the club. These idiots will control the game in Europe. Whatever you think about the blazers . . . The RFU could nip this in the bud by refusing PRL the right to go with their own television deal (BT). The RFU are in a tricky position because they are currently negotiating with PRL for the release of their English players for the 2015 World Cup – that could get very tricky.

Who would you turn to here to act as a facilitator or consiglieri? The IRB of course. This body has sat back and watched, voyeur-like, as the unseemly scrap escalates. They have the power and the money to stop it right now before it gets out of hand.

The IRB picked up a handy €105m from the World Cup in New Zealand. They must be acutely aware that the Six Nations Championship is on the wane – the IRFU can't sell their tickets.

If England and France break away, it means the Heineken is dead and club rugby will fall off a cliff. As a consequence, international rugby in Italy, Scotland, Wales and Ireland will fall off a cliff because they can't sustain the payroll of the players without these competitions. The Six Nations dies.

The IRB sends me daily emails about rugby in the Cook Islands, investment in the game there, women's rugby, sevens rugby etc. They might look a little closer to home and splash the cash to compensate Italy, Scotland etc for the monies which they will be bullied out of. A compromise would be tempered by some stringent directives by the IRB.

The IRB could, for instance, forbid any of their referees to officiate in any Anglo-French league. No refs equals no matches. They might possibly forbid any international player from playing in an Anglo-French league. They control the international fixture lists.

The IRB need to intervene. Premiership Rugby might actually get away with their bluff and if they do the game is gone.

A couple of phone calls behind the scenes. €3m or €4m each for the greedy English and French meant for development in the Cook Islands?

Frankly, nobody gives a continental. The game in the northern hemisphere could go down the pan – engage before it is too late.

[Stuttgart88]

The last 2 posts were the Francis article transcribed.

I do think it's interesting that club versus union tensions are increasing in England. It's only natural as the sport becomes more commercially attractive - and financially intensive to run a club. But I thought the clubs still get more money from their union (money generated by the national team) than they generate themselves. I'll have to check this out somehow.

His point about England having only 1 team in the top ten is interesting but (a) I wonder how reliable the rankings are and (b) isn't that an inevitable consequence of English rugby being more competitive - i.e., no club has a shoo-in H-Cup place like the Irish sides do?

Can the IRFU really not sell its 6N tickets? There's a difference between selling large blocks of tickets many years in advance and selling tickets for upcoming games.

[peadar1987]

I think the IRFU can't sell its tickets at the prices it's asking, I think the TV ratings are a better measure of how popular the 6 Nations is. If the IRFU can make more money by charging €90 a ticket and having a 75% full stadium than they can charging €50 and having it packed to the rafters, they're going to go for the more expensive tickets every time.

[Stuttgart88]

In Germany they feel that packed stadia create a better TV product. The foregone income from ticket sales is more than made up from TV rights and corporate demand to be part of a packed atmospheric stadium.

[peadar1987]

In Germany they feel that packed stadia create a better TV product. The foregone income from ticket sales is more than made up from TV rights and corporate demand to be part of a packed atmospheric stadium.

Aye, but it would hardly be the first time an Irish association did something short-sighted because they liked the sound of some quick cash.

[Dodge]

Good blog article on the fture of the Heineken Cup. Interesting points made re; conservatism in the IRFU

http://whiffofcordite.com/2013/09/18/hec-future-the-unions/

[Bungle]

In Germany they feel that packed stadia create a better TV product. The foregone income from ticket sales is more than made up from TV rights and corporate demand to be part of a packed atmospheric stadium.

So true that is. I used to love watching the Serie games back in the 90s with the stadiums packed to the brim.

[Crosby87]

Do Ireland have a player on the team who is far and away their best current player? I know nothing about Rugby.

[Stuttgart88]

Liam Toland in the Irish Times:

"Leinster broke the laws to their advantage, deserving credit for same."

Discuss.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/by-going-a-little-bit-crooked-with-their-feeds-leinster-broke-the-law-and-they-won-1.1579746?page=2

[ArdeeBhoy]

Have they now breached some great ethical barrier...

[DeLorean]

I noticed that Munster couldn't sell out their big Heineken Cup game v Gloucster a couple of weeks back, or at least there were still tickets available on the day. This would have been unthinkable a couple of years back. I wonder how much of it is down to the Celtic Tiger crash and how much of it is down to a rapidly decreasing bandwagon? Presumably a combination of both but I've a feeling the Munster phenomenon may gradually fade into a passing interest or less for the majority. That said, I'm not too well up on the percentages of hardcore fans v bandwagoners.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think it's just price sensitivity + relative lack of success in recent years, plus the fact Gloucester announced in advance they'd be sending a Mickey Mouse side.

[Stuttgart88]

I think there's dissatisfaction with the way Munster play too.

I have to say I'm intrigued by the whole H Cup scenario. I think we are seeing what many of us predicted: as rugby becomes more professional the same fault lines evident in football are also appearing. Player behaviour and coach behaviour are deteriorating. Benefactor owners are affecting competitive balance and financial stability. Thornley wrote a piece recently about how the French clubs will eat themselves but not before they eat everyone else first. Players follow the money, end of story. This romantic idea of Irish players staying at home because they love the place is rubbished now with the end of the tax break. Clubs everywhere are loss making and are entering a financial arms race for success and for players. Clubs are making a power grab from the unions and the unions are competing with each other on behalf of their clubs. Self interest is beginning to rule on all fronts. International rugby union is losing its lustre to a degree, and some clubs are doing their best to ensure this continues.

I think the IRB has been asleep at the wheel. All of the above has been evident in football since big TV money and Bosman. Almost everyone agrees that some form of FFP is warranted but is unfortunately at least a decade too late in football. UEFA fended off clubs' quest for a self-administered super league by making concessions early and by giving clubs greater say in UEFA's governance. But the IRB (or whoever is supposed to be overseeing the game in Europe at least) should have seen the need for action before now. I don't follow it all closely enough and have only recently been aware of the various tensions, the expiry of the H Cup arrangements, the state of club and franchise finances and the extent of financial clout in France. But the rugby authorities must have seen all this and yet they still stood idly by and at best are in reactive mode.

My rugby mates all agree and funnily enough, because of this I'm much more at peace with rugby than I have been for a few years. I think their cosy little world is falling apart a little and some humility is returning.

I said ages back in this thread that I felt there was a Celtic Tiger era sense of self satisfaction in rugby circles in the last few years. I think it's all a bit more objective now and I think that's a good thing. Professional sport is a dirty business and a financially unstable business, idoesn't matter what the sport is.

[IsMiseSean]

Do Ireland have a player on the team who is far and away their best current player? I know nothing about Rugby.

The answer probably depends on whether you're from Munster or Leinster. I'm from Galway so I don't give a s***e...

[ArdeeBhoy]

Good post Stutts, only wish I cared more. But I don't.

And Sean, Connacht are in the Heineken aren't they...

[Stuttgart88]

Charlie, is there any broad acceptance at home that rugby is becoming as riddled with self interest as football and that maybe the moral high ground is less elevated than before?

I'm all on for people preferring one sport over another but I've never bought into the notion that any sport is fundamentally more honourable than the other.

[IsMiseSean]

And Sean, Connacht are in the Heineken aren't they...

Probably, I don't think they need to qualify for it. Mickey Mouse competition...

[Charlie Darwin]

Charlie, is there any broad acceptance at home that rugby is becoming as riddled with self interest as football and that maybe the moral high ground is less elevated than before?

I'm all on for people preferring one sport over another but I've never bought into the notion that any sport is fundamentally more honourable than the other.
I don't really know to be honest. I think the cockiness has given way to a bit more realism over the past year and people are beginning to see that the likes of Boudjellal and Wray are every bit as ruthless as their soccer counterparts, but in this country I think the success of the provinces has allowed many in the game to evade any sort of serious examination.

I do tire of this "rugby is turning into soccer" spiel. I like the way referees get more respect in rugby, but the moral highground becomes tiresome, especially when you have the odd player losing an eye.

[Serb]

I noticed that Munster couldn't sell out their big Heineken Cup game v Gloucster a couple of weeks back, or at least there were still tickets available on the day. This would have been unthinkable a couple of years back. I wonder how much of it is down to the Celtic Tiger crash and how much of it is down to a rapidly decreasing bandwagon? Presumably a combination of both but I've a feeling the Munster phenomenon may gradually fade into a passing interest or less for the majority. That said, I'm not too well up on the percentages of hardcore fans v bandwagoners.

Irish rugby is at it's lowest point for quite some time — 10 years at least. Munster have been in decline for a couple of seasons. Their fans also got screwed over the issuing of season tickets (can't remember exact details but the issue was along the lines of having to buy two season tickets, one for Cork and one for Limerick, where before you could buy one ticket to cover both). Those things combined have impacted their attendance massively. Ireland dropped to their lowest level in a long time when they lost to both Scotland and Italy in the last 6 Nations. There's still a lot of question marks over Leinster's season, a couple of reasonable performances in the Heineken Cup aside, they've looked very poor in the league. Ulster are the only team in any kind of ascendancy and are probably the best provincial side at the moment.

At this stage, I think the bandwagoners have been weeded out, yet the number of spectators remains strong. Leinster continue to have an average attendance greater than the capacity of their stadium (around 19,000 thanks to a couple of games in the Aviva each season). Munster manage to average 15,000+ people per game despite form and ticketing issues, Ulster averaged 10,000 per game last season and have a brand new stadium this season. Connacht draw over 5,000 fans a game despite being rooted to the foot of the league. You're talking 45,000+ people on average attend a club rugby game in Ireland, 15 times a year. The national team probably bring in another 45,000 people five or six times a year (based on 3 autumn internationals and two to three home 6 Nations games).

I think rugby is still in a very strong position relative to football in this country.

[Stuttgart88]

Everyone's in a strong position relative to football!

But the IRFU has just had to borrow 26 million and am I right in thinking Leinster has debts of around 20million? What is the financial position of the other provinces?

[DannyInvincible]

I do tire of this "rugby is turning into soccer" spiel. I like the way referees get more respect in rugby, but the moral highground becomes tiresome, especially when you have the odd player losing an eye.

Ah, c'mon! Sure, what'd ya be needin' two eyes for anyway?!

[Charlie Darwin]

Everyone's in a strong position relative to football!

But the IRFU has just had to borrow 26 million and am I right in thinking Leinster has debts of around 20million? What is the financial position of the other provinces?
They didn't have to borrow the money - it's just a quirk in the way the IRFU operates that they provide a lot of up-front cash to the provincial unions and clubs. They're borrowing against future ticket sales (I know, nothing's certain) because 10-year ticket sales are more or less dead.

Leinster have a legacy debt of something like €8 million for the Donnybrook development but their finances are stable. Munster are in a worse position as far as I know and still have something like €5m owed to the IRFU they had to borrow a couple of years back.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Probably, I don't think they need to qualify for it. Mickey Mouse competition...

Harsh.

[dantheman]

I noticed that Munster couldn't sell out their big Heineken Cup game v Gloucster a couple of weeks back, or at least there were still tickets available on the day. This would have been unthinkable a couple of years back. I wonder how much of it is down to the Celtic Tiger crash and how much of it is down to a rapidly decreasing bandwagon? Presumably a combination of both but I've a feeling the Munster phenomenon may gradually fade into a passing interest or less for the majority. That said, I'm not too well up on the percentages of hardcore fans v bandwagoners.

Big year for GAA in Munster, big runs for Limerick, Clare & Cork and an AI replay. All took its toll on the wallet!

[tetsujin1979]

compare and contrast the amount of coverage given to the search for, and eventual appointment of, managers for the football and rugby teams.

[paul_oshea]

It was always more of a sure thing though Tets for the rugby, and there are a handful of countries to go to for a Rugby Coach.

[gastric]

If you look at the administration of rugby and football in this country, I would take Philip Browne and his team over Delaney and co. The IRFU overcame their slow acceptance of professional rugby to build a successful model, and while it faces many hurdles presently, Browne's limited comments on these hurdles were honest, yet left you feeling confident that the IRFU know what they are doing. Why do I not feel the same way when Delaney and Co make statements?

[tetsujin1979]

"limited" is the key word there gastric. Browne has time to prepare statements and responses, whereas Delaney is constantly in the public eye.
He wasn't questioned publicly after the last six nations, hasn't had to answer questions about underage progress, stadiums (Sports ground in Galway or Musgrave Park) player salaries, management salaries, players leaving the country, etc.
Dogs on the street seem to know what Delaney is earning, I couldn't tell you the last time I saw Browne in front of a camera.