Rugby now more popular than football AND GAA?!

[Stuttgart88]

By all accounts Delaney has been the ultimate schemer and politician. I'm reading "Who Stole Our Game?" and the author quotes FAI insiders as saying JD has a history of obstructing and undermining any initiative proposed by a CEO and is as Machiavellian as they come. One quote is quite funny "the best thing about Delaney being the CEO is that he doesn't have Delaney to undermine him from underneath".

I've no doubt you're right regarding Philip Browne, although I think organising and co-ordinating rugby in the professional era has been easier than football. To date it has simply been less commercial, less competitive and less political. Things are changing though and there are financial and political headwinds to contend with. I certainly admire how the IRFU has been transparent about its financial problems. None of this "we'll be debt free by 2020" without givbing any hint of how they'll achieve this.

One area where Delaney does deserve credit is that he has engaged with UEFA very effectively - although bar hosting the Europa League Final I'm not sure if there's been any tangible benefit to this.

[OwlsFan]

As a friend of mine said "it's good to have people talking about soccer again although the idea of the appointment bringing the "Irish supporters" back to Landsdowne puzzles me. The supporters never left".

[tetsujin1979]

One area where Delaney does deserve credit is that he has engaged with UEFA very effectively - although bar hosting the Europa League Final I'm not sure if there's been any tangible benefit to this.
I've been saying for a while that Delaney is, long-term, aiming for the UEFA position when Platini steps aside.

[Stuttgart88]

Would he have any chance of landing that post?

[DannyInvincible]

If Jim Boyce can be FIFA vice-prez...

[paul_oshea]

I think thats fairly common knowledge is it not? He is good friends with Pat McQuaid so maybe he has been schooling him...

[geysir]

If Jim Boyce can be FIFA vice-prez...
One of the FIFA vice pres!
there are more FIFA veepess than Snow White has dwarves.
And we know that's just a revolving perk thrown to the UK associations.

[BonnieShels]

I've been saying for a while that Delaney is, long-term, aiming for the UEFA position when Platini steps aside.

Yeah. This has been my thinking too alright.

As Charlie said once, "He's a snake-oil salesman, but he's OUR snake-oil salesman."

[tetsujin1979]

Would he have any chance of landing that post?
well, he's hosted the Europa League final, ahead of venues like the Emirates, among others
Platini awarded the fans that award after Euro 2012
and given that Platini is French, the presidency is more likely to go to one of the smaller associations when he departs, otherwise UEFA will be accused of favouring the larger and more powerful associations
why not?

[Charlie Darwin]

Yeah. This has been my thinking too alright.

As Charlie said once, "He's a snake-oil salesman, but he's OUR snake-oil salesman."
I think I just called him a snake, but if the shoe fits!

[NeverFeltBetter]

What's Delaney done to win such a post? His record in his own association is hardly stellar.

[Macy]

"limited" is the key word there gastric. Browne has time to prepare statements and responses, whereas Delaney is constantly in the public eye.
He wasn't questioned publicly after the last six nations, hasn't had to answer questions about underage progress, stadiums (Sports ground in Galway or Musgrave Park) player salaries, management salaries, players leaving the country, etc.
Dogs on the street seem to know what Delaney is earning, I couldn't tell you the last time I saw Browne in front of a camera.
There's been plenty of questions about the IRFU structures - they got hammered on the performance director role (or lack of it), and the fact they were looking for a coach without the structures in place above him. Delaney avoids plenty of crap - look at the state of Irish football, the league of ireland is falling apart, and he gets lauded for appointing an international management team ffs.

[Stuttgart88]

A bit as Macy said, if Irish rugby is in such good shape how come we've had to appoint foreigners to the top 5 coaching positions? It says something about coach education and "pathways". Delaney said on the radio that rugby gets a far easier ride in the media than football and I agree.

But it's true, only certain parts of the football pyramid are in any sort of decent shape. The FAI has been riddled with factions and vested interests since long before he took office but these factions remain. The question for me is whether JD has been unable or unwilling to change this. My suspicion is that it's the latter - they don't make life awkward for him if he doesn't make life awkward for them. Instead he passes the buck to someone like Dokter to try and join things up. JD has made some good appointments and done some good brown-nosing at UEFA, and I absolutely believe he works as hard as he says he does, but that's not to say he's working hard at the right things.

In a way I think market forces are at work already. The regressive factions recognise that exporting big physical lumps over to England is no longer viable so they have no choice but to embrace change. Others, like the NDSL, have effected change because it's the right thing to do.

[Macy]

If there's an issue with the National team, the FAI get a hard time, but that's the be all and end all. The media don't care about the League of Ireland, or the youth structures or whatever, so then Delaney and the FAI get a pass. An example was the euro's when we went out - the RTE panel were all "ah well, sure we don't have the players". England get knocked out and it's all about the English structures for developing players. The other levels of the game, which actually hold the power are Delaneys power base - he's not going to tackle that for the greater good of player development (which is with the National team as the pinnacle, LoI would just see a side benefit). And he won't get questioned on it because the media are only interested in English football, and our players there.

From the outside looking in, I think you can only genuine things you can really pin on the IRFU is the senior club game and Connacht. They've the structures in place to develop players now, even outside the traditional areas/ schools. It remains to be seen how Europe pans out, and obviously the change to the tax breaks and the removal of the need to be Irish based are problems not really of their making.

[paul_oshea]

The FA dont get a hard time for issues with the EPL, for example.

But it all depends on the remit i suppose of the FAi.

[Stuttgart88]

I think there's been a lot of talk in the press and among the ordinary punter about youth development in football. I think many are ignorant of what certain sections of the game are doing well and what the real problems are.

When players regularly start playing rugby for Ireland that haven't come through the traditional schools system I'll be more impressed. By the same token underage players are playing football for Ireland from all over the country. I'm still waiting for evidence that rugby is organised on a superior basis to football - even though anecdotally I'm happy to accept that their administration is better quality. The AIL clubs have an aggregate debt of €24 million I think I read last week. Rugby suffers from a chronic lack of volunteers. We employ foreign coaches to manage the national team and the 4 provinces.Not exactly evidence of a thriving game.

Rugby fills a lovel gap. GAA is great but domestic only. People want the football team to be successfull internationally but they only are on a sporadic basis at best. Rugby has success internationally, especially in a European club league where we enter sub-parts of our national team supplemented by foreign imports. Schmidt insisting that Madigan play for Leinster last week highlighted the slightly odd nature of our "club" rugby.

I think the real own goals were scored by Irish football a long long time ago. If a cr@phole like Dundee can get two teams to European finals and semi finals, surely in the pre-megabucks era a team from Dublin could have done the same? But if Dunphy is to be believed, Irish football was so small minded it did everything possible to make sure an Irish club didn't succeed in becoming more professional.

Despite how it may read, I'm not here to have a dig at rugby. I'm here to have a dig at the notion that they do everything well and that football doesn't.

[ArdeeBhoy]

My pals from Dundee would vehemently disagree...

The Scots had more talent than us in the '60s' and probably '70's...
Now all they have are EPL managers?

[Stuttgart88]

The FA dont get a hard time for issues with the EPL, for example.

But it all depends on the remit i suppose of the FAi.That's because the FA doesn't run the EPL. The EPL does. The FA doesn't get a hard time because the EPL has all the power and influence in the English game. This is something the RFU should be careful of.

[tetsujin1979]

That's because the FA doesn't run the EPL. The EPL does. The FA doesn't get a hard time because the EPL has all the power and influence in the English game. This is something the RFU should be careful of.
that's partially why the current Heineken Cup situation is so interesting, the club sides involved are putting their own interests ahead of the unions

[Stuttgart88]

Exactly, it's fascinating.

[tetsujin1979]

Is Neil Francis saying here that Ireland should have cheated to win against New Zealand last week: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/we-played-that-100-seconds-like-gentlemen-we-shouldve-played-it-like-gurriers-29798965.html

[gastric]

Is Neil Francis saying here that Ireland should have cheated to win against New Zealand last week: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/we-played-that-100-seconds-like-gentlemen-we-shouldve-played-it-like-gurriers-29798965.html

Cheating is probably a bit strong, more a comment on how to play the referee, something which a certain Richie McCaw does brilliantly every game!

[DannyInvincible]

He's advocating what could be described as simulation though, isn't he?

[osarusan]

Yes, he's saying they should have broken the rules, cheated, whatever.

Rugby lost any self-proclaimed moral high ground it might have had a long time ago. Like any sport, they'll do whatever they can get away with to win.

Don't really see much reason to keep highlighting instances of their bullsh*t though. I'd have thought it was obvious to pretty much everybody, given how blatant it is.

[geysir]

Running down the clock in the last minute of a game is not cheating in my book. It's something similar to football, running the ball to the corner flag and 'arsing about with it there, no intent to play the game just run down the clock, frustrate your opponent and hopefully win a free kick or corner or throw in.
Francis was advocating that some irish player should have stopped the momentum of the AB's, even to the point of giving away a penalty.
Foul play is not cheating.

[gastric]

Running down the clock in the last minute of a game is not cheating in my book. It's something similar to football, running the ball to the corner flag and 'arsing about with it there, no intent to play the game just run down the clock, frustrate your opponent and hopefully win a free kick or corner or throw in.
Francis was advocating that some irish player should have stopped the momentum of the AB's, even to the point of giving away a penalty.
Foul play is not cheating.

On the money, Geysir!

[Stuttgart88]

I agree (sorry Tets!).

I do wonder if we had been the attacking side whether Owens would have penalised us I know we were in their half and notionally going forward, but it was clear it was a clock run down exercise. But if we had been doing the same thing to get into a drop goal situation, a la Munster at Northampton, would Owens have seen things differently?

[paul_oshea]

I dont think they caught breath to even think about cheating. As soon as NZ got that penalty there was an air of inevitability. Ireland had been out on their feet from about the 65th minute but somehow managed to keep plugging away because of the points they were ahead, but they were really fceked when not in possession, as soon as the penalty was given they were at 6s and 7s trying organise and get across that I dont think they got any time to even think of going in over the top, a high tackle, running offside etc. I dont really remember many rucks once NZ got the ball just constant running and movement off the ball, so given away something at the ruck didnt seem possible, but it all happened so quick even for us watching i cant be sure on that!!

[Paddy Garcia]

Yes, he's saying they should have broken the rules, cheated, whatever.

Rugby lost any self-proclaimed moral high ground it might have had a long time ago. Like any sport, they'll do whatever they can get away with to win.

Don't really see much reason to keep highlighting instances of their bullsh*t though. I'd have thought it was obvious to pretty much everybody, given how blatant it is.


The respect for the officials and the opposition, the maturity to lose with grace and win with humility is my son experiences as a teenage rugby player and is something most football teams can only dream of.

Citing poor behaviour, and we are all human, is clutching at straws and these anecdotal examples does not mean they will do what ever they can to win - far from it.

[tetsujin1979]

it was this section that I was referring to
I understand that Ireland were out on their feet, but if McCaw had been playing for Ireland he would have gone in to the breakdown and killed the ball – killed it stone dead. He might have given away a penalty, he might have been carded (not possible) but he would have stopped the All Blacks' momentum dead. It would have meant that having got traction and momentum with their wide game, they would have had to try and go again – very hard to do. They went to the extreme of the pitch four times. They did so unhindered by one Irish player who never thought of stopping their progress illegally. That is what New Zealand do if they have to. So too Australia and South Africa. It doesn't cost them a thought.

I saw Irish players obligingly rolling out of the way to get back onside. We played that 100 seconds like gentlemen, we should have played it like gurriers. It was one of the few gaps in O'Driscoll's CV. I am sure that in the helter-skelter he alone on his team would have had the sangfroid to go in and do something, legal or illegal, to stop New Zealand. It didn't happen.
I interpreted the "obligingly rolling out of the way to get back onside" as "we should have stayed offside (i.e. illegally) to block the New Zealand break". Not sure what the "gap in O'Driscoll's CV" he's referring to is either

[paul_oshea]

I imagine the gap means beating nz.he has done almost everything else.

He didn't say that THe cheating bit is out of his game as in not on his CV because he follows up that if he was on the field he would have done this to win the game.

[osarusan]

Citing poor behaviour, and we are all human, is clutching at straws and these anecdotal examples does not mean they will do what ever they can to win - far from it.

If citing examples of poor behaviour is not allowed, what evidence do you have to support your claim that football teams behave with less maturity than rugby teams?

[Paddy Garcia]

If citing examples of poor behaviour is not allowed, what evidence do you have to support your claim that football teams behave with less maturity than rugby teams?

At pro level from watching every Saturday - if I were to cite regular incidents of poor sportsmanship I'd be banned by the Mods for over use of the forum.

And at junior level I have two boys - one a soccer player and the other rugby - there is a gulf of difference from the attitude and respect of the players, to the abuse of the ref and extending to the appalling bias/abuse I witness of from parents on the side at football games.

[Stuttgart88]

You know the bit on telly on a Saturday afternoon where they're not allowed to show the game but as soon as the final whistle blows at 4:50pm they go live and give a match synopsis? All you ever see is the players shaking hands. Once you actually look out for what the players do after a game, I think you'd be surprised how much good old-fashioned sportsmanship there is.

Of course there's some despicable behaviour in football but more often than not it is limited to the same usual suspects.

Point fully taken about underage stuff, although some kids' football coaches I know teach their kids not just to shake hands, but to shake hands properly and to look their opponent in the eye. Yer man Antonio Mantero of www.thecoachdiary.com has this as one of his cornerstones.

My own kid played in a tag rugby tournament (Under 8) for his school last week and after every game the whole thing was about each side going "3 cheers for the other team". It was very sweet and very touching. There were lots of parents, most enthusiastically supporting the kids. It was very audible but no tension or guff like is common in underage football. I heard one story about a kid who was asked why central midfield was his favourite position. He replied that it was because it meant he was always twenty yards from his dad on one touchline and his uncle on the other! Probably an urban myth, but telling enough nonetheless.

But my beef was very capably highlighted by Eamon Sweeney in an article I linked on this thread several months ago. He quoted the IRFU's annual report banging on about rugby's superior values. In my opinion, games don't have values, people do. Better educated people (educated in the broadest sense) tend to behave better than less educated people. Rugby is played by better educated people. As pro rugby becomes more and more commercial, these values disappear. The same cr@p that annoys us about football has been increasingly evident in pro rugby, but I still come across people blind to this who say they won't watch football because of the cheating. Sweeney nailed it - in rugby it's seen as a better class of cheating.

I also think the referee respect thing is overblown. The worst teatment of refs in football in GAA and football is terrible, no dispute. But the uniform and sterile way of interacting with the ref in rugby irritates me. The refs, particularly Nigel Owens, treat grown-up players like kids sometimes. In most football games there's fair banter between players and refs, especially domestic games when there's a common language. My own experience of playing several hundred games of junior football is more like:

Me: FFS ref, that's a clear push.
Ref: shut up keeper, I don't slag you off for sh1t handling

Both of us would laugh and move on.

The flipside of referee respect in rugby is that very little of that type of exchange happens.

There's plenty of good and bad in all sports and if you look at them without an agenda this is evident. My issue with rugby isn't an anti-rugby agenda at all, it's an anti-"rugby guff" agenda and I actually think the view I've spouted on about here since this thread started is now much more of a mainstream view.

One last point: if I was a football manager I'd insist on my players doing a line of honour into the tunnel for the away team. On one hand it's sporting but as a motivational tool being made to face your victorious opponent if you lose is a huge incentive to make sure you win! OK, I'd fear there'd be occasions when there'd be a scrap but still...

[Paddy Garcia]

I agree with the vast majority of your post. I would say that my experience of underage level rugby is a genuine respect for the ref. And I'm sure there are petty refs in football as well as rugby, I can recall a few. I think I've seen more good natured exchanges in (Rob Kearney last Saturday) professional rugby than in professional football.

Of course I can see the example of the exchange you cite happening - though my kids are in London and this type of cultural exchange would be a very rare occurrence on a football pitch here.

My gripe is the hackneyed criticism and denigration of rugby on this thread as some spurious means to elevate the values of football.

[osarusan]

My gripe is the hackneyed criticism and denigration of rugby on this thread as some spurious means to elevate the values of football.

I'm not trying to elevate the value of football, I'm trying to argue that rugby doesn't entirely deserve the pedestal of virtue on which many of its supporters have placed it.

My gripe is with people (not you) who are willing to ignore the faults of rugby because it doesn't suit them to admit that the game has its faults too. Or who lament the influence of football for some of the things becoming more prevalent in rugby. Witness refs like Nigel Owens telling people 'this isn't soccer'.

To reference a previous post, if you believe that rugby players won't do whatever it takes to win, i respectfully disagree, and believe that there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.



But my beef was very capably highlighted by Eamon Sweeney in an article I linked on this thread several months ago. He quoted the IRFU's annual report banging on about rugby's superior values. In my opinion, games don't have values, people do. Better educated people (educated in the broadest sense) tend to behave better than less educated people. Rugby is played by better educated people. As pro rugby becomes more and more commercial, these values disappear. The same cr@p that annoys us about football has been increasingly evident in pro rugby, but I still come across people blind to this who say they won't watch football because of the cheating. Sweeney nailed it - in rugby it's seen as a better class of cheating.


Exactly this.

I think most people's beef with football is the constant barracking of the ref and the ridiculous diving that goes mostly uncondemned. Compare this with rugby, where, to rugby's great credit, the microphones on referees and panels for cited incidents have helped/forced the players to self monitor while on the pitch.

I would love it if FIFA/UEFA would set these things in motion in football, and I genuinely believe it would eradicate so much of both of these problems.

[geysir]

I think most people's beef with football is the constant barracking of the ref and the ridiculous diving that goes mostly uncondemned. Compare this with rugby, where, to rugby's great credit, the microphones on referees and panels for cited incidents have helped/forced the players to self monitor while on the pitch.

I would love it if FIFA/UEFA would set these things in motion in football, and I genuinely believe it would eradicate so much of both of these problems.
Well, as it stands now, Uefa and Fifa not only are inactive but they actually favour acts of cheating and blatant simulation with reward.

What Francis was talking about in his article was not cheating.

[Charlie Darwin]

Well, as it stands now, Uefa and Fifa not only are inactive but they actually favour acts of cheating and blatant simulation with reward.

What Francis was talking about in his article was not cheating.
Francis was talking about lying on the ball and giving away clever penalties. That is every bit as much cheating as diving or whatever, the only difference is that it's accepted as part of the game.

[gastric]

While I completely agree with Geysir and Stutts that what Francis advocated wasn't cheating, what is certainly cheapening rugby is the actions of Mark McCafferty and the PRL. Their public statements and bullying tactics are hard to stomach and the possibility of rugby clubs buying premierships and sacking coaches on a regular basis (like Man City) are not far away.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Does it really matter?

Everyone knows rugby has just as many dubious practices as soccer, for decades...

[tetsujin1979]

Does it really matter?

Everyone knows rugby has just as many dubious practices as soccer, for decades...
do they? I've rugby mates who'll swear blind that anything underhand/illegal is "part of the game"
Of course it's not! If it was, it woudn't be illegal!

[Serb]

Does it really matter? Everyone knows rugby has just as many dubious practices as soccer, for decades...

I feel like there are a few of sides to why this attitude exists. Rugby has been professional for less than 20 years. The average person interested in sports in Ireland didn't watch or attend rugby games habitually in the first 10 years of that. They're less familiar with the game in general. Therefore, "cheating" (i.e. diving or other acts to gain an advantage) is a lot less obvious in rugby than it is in football — partially because people aren't that familiar with the rules in rugby. My mum could spot Ronaldo taking a dive, but she wouldn't have a clue if Richie McCaw was lying on top of the ball at the wrong side of a ruck or if Paul O'Connell slightly adjusts his position to block the path of a chasing opposition player after a garryowen. A rugby player would rarely take a dive because it's of no advantage (although it has happened (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t-ITf6Wj5k)), so they have to resort to more subtle things (or sometimes not so subtle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ppwVqvTipU)).

[ArdeeBhoy]

These people need to go their opticians then...

[geysir]

Francis was talking about lying on the ball and giving away clever penalties. That is every bit as much cheating as diving or whatever, the only difference is that it's accepted as part of the game.
You want to compare a foul with cheating and simulating getting hit by a player in order to get him sent off?
I would 'strenously' disagree with that opinion.

[geysir]

I feel like there are a few of sides to why this attitude exists. Rugby has been professional for less than 20 years. The average person interested in sports in Ireland didn't watch or attend rugby games habitually in the first 10 years of that. They're less familiar with the game in general. Therefore, "cheating" (i.e. diving or other acts to gain an advantage) is a lot less obvious in rugby than it is in football — partially because people aren't that familiar with the rules in rugby. My mum could spot Ronaldo taking a dive, but she wouldn't have a clue if Richie McCaw was lying on top of the ball at the wrong side of a ruck or if Paul O'Connell slightly adjusts his position to block the path of a chasing opposition player after a garryowen. A rugby player would rarely take a dive because it's of no advantage (although it has happened (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t-ITf6Wj5k)), so they have to resort to more subtle things (or sometimes not so subtle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ppwVqvTipU)).

The big difference in attitude is when simulation is glaringly and obviously committed to get another player sent off, there are no repercussions for the offender.
It is not regarded as an offence by Fifa or Uefa to cheat the ref in this way. The offender is actually allowed to reap the reward of the offence with no comebacks. Instead, if a player mildly reacts to a cheat, the book will be thrown at him. That's a perversion of sport.

In rugby the initial offender is treated as the main culprit, but it's a completely different sport with a much more extreme physicality, a different type of ref and attitude is needed to keep the lid on. You might as well compare football to the sport of volleyball, as compare it to rugby.

[DannyInvincible]

Such is the cursed influence of that blasted soccer, even the slide tackle is creeping into rugby now.


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x17uw0c_aurelien-rougerie-ballon-d-or_sport?start=34

[Stuttgart88]

I would love it if FIFA/UEFA would set these things in motion in football, and I genuinely believe it would eradicate so much of both of these problems.
Slightly related, but I see that Platini is suggesting that football introduces a sin bin instead of yellow cards. Part of the rationale is that the accumulation of yellows actually benefits an unaffected team (the team that benefits from the eventual suspension) rather than the team offended against. He cited rugby as evidence that it works.

[paul_oshea]

It would make 10 mins very uneven, but good fun.

[Stuttgart88]

it's a completely different sport with a much more extreme physicality, a different type of ref and attitude is needed to keep the lid on. You might as well compare football to the sport of volleyball, as compare it to rugby.If your point is that a stronger covenant of respect is actually required in rugby, rtaher than simply something to be admired, then yes I agree. The game would fall apart if referees didn't have the absolute position of ascendancy that they have.

I didn't see Leinster v Glasgow in last year's Rabo play-off semi final but my mate was at the game and he said that the ref was weak and Glasgow went to town on him, playing on every favourable interpretation and lack of punishment of their offending. The more he let it go, the more they did it. That's cheating the ref as well as the opposition, no?

I've seen rugby players (usually English scrum-halves!) taking quick tap penalties and running straight into an opponent who hadn't an earthly chance to retreat ten yards, to earn the penalty and try and get a yellow card for the opponent. I saw Morgan Parra pretend an Owen Farrell b1tch-slap was a full-on punch, and so on...

They do do it. Nowhere near the prevalance of such ridiculous action in football, of course.

But it's a tough one for football. I think they are right, for the good of the game, to have a near zero-tolerance for punching, but I think the game suffers for minor facial contact being interpreted as violent behaviour. It's a fairly easy thing for UEFA to sort out, and blatant play-acting can be punished retrospectively via video analysis. Even if - in fact especially if -players get tough treatment from a video jury then it'll make them think twice about play-acting. Rivaldo was fined about an hour's wages for his utterly ridiculous play acting (against Turkey?) a few years ago. An opponent threw a ball at him for him to take a corner with and he pretended he had been polaxed by some act of aggression. Pathetic behaviour and pathetic punishment.

[Stuttgart88]

And at junior level I have two boys - one a soccer player and the other rugby - there is a gulf of difference from the attitude and respect of the players, to the abuse of the ref and extending to the appalling bias/abuse I witness of from parents on the side at football games.I don't want to divert this thread into a conversation about youth coaching, but the following is relevant to your post. I wonder if there's a better thread for this discussion?

http://www.thecoachdiary.com/over-coaching/

If a Saturday morning is anything to go by, then our kids are certainly not getting the freedom they need to explore and learn. Most sports parks around the country are awash with adults cheering, but in most cases roaring on their kids and kicking every ball. I would hate to be a child trying to think in an environment like that, wouldn’t you? This undue pressure to have to win the kids game, is making the game they supposedly love a horrible experience and eventually they rebel against the experience and loud supervision from adults to leave the game for good. We need to stop this from happening.

The whole article is worth reading as it relates to broader points about coaching kids, but the above extract was relevant to what we were discussing a few days ago.