View Full Version : Rugby now more popular than football AND GAA?!
paul_oshea
15/04/2011, 10:22 AM
From personal experience, League of Ireland support can tend to get somewhat "cliquey", but maybe that's a natural consequence of seeing the same heads at the games every week; it would only be expected that bonds be formed. Note the whole "real football, real fans" thing, however. I think that's indicative of a superiority complex which could very easily make those perceived as "outsiders" somewhat uncomfortable. I suppose you could also view it as pride. In saying all that, when I first travelled to Derry away games, I travelled alone, for want of a better word, on buses with supporters' clubs of which I wasn't a member and where I might have vaguely known one or two people, if even, but had no problem joining in or being made feel like I was part of it all.
From experience in other minority little "communities" that clique is often the kernel of these groups. I suppose it just comes down to human nature at the end of the day, its almost evoluntionary, from the sense of survival. I used to go to a lot of gigs on my own, or to rock bars, and it was awful cliquey in those places, as it was the same faces the whole time and sticking together.
Dodge
15/04/2011, 10:35 AM
I think the United situation is somewhat different. When clubs become a plaything for profit on the global market - or a mere brand, in essence - they invariably lose what might be viewed as their local soul. The fans probably couldn't connect with the marketing ambitions of the club, nor with the celebrities who were now purporting to represent them on the field. When what was once your club in every way begins purchasing token South Koreans and selling Fred the Red lamp-shades en masse in Japan, it's probably high time you had a re-think of what it's really all about. The gentrification and sanitisation of top-flight English football has understandably put many die-hards off. All-seater stadia have killed the atmosphere at games and rising ticket prices have made it unaffordable for the old stalwart working-class fans to attend. English football is sold to the affluent middle-class nowadays. Its values no longer share anything in common with those with whom it was traditionally associated. See, for example, Wayne Rooney receiving a two-match ban for swearing into a camera during an explosion of energy after scoring a goal. I mean, seriously?
And yet Irish people have never had more of an interest in Man Utd and the EPL…
From personal experience, League of Ireland support can tend to get somewhat "cliquey", but maybe that's a natural consequence of seeing the same heads at the games every week; it would only be expected that bonds be formed. Note the whole "real football, real fans" thing, however. I think that's indicative of a superiority complex which could very easily make those perceived as "outsiders" somewhat uncomfortable. I suppose you could also view it as pride. In saying all that, when I first travelled to Derry away games, I travelled alone, for want of a better word, on buses with supporters' clubs of which I wasn't a member and where I might have vaguely known one or two people, if even, but had no problem joining in or being made feel like I was part of it all.
It can be cliquey alright, but it is built up over time. For instance I have mates that I only met through going to Pats games. Its not out of the ordinary to see the same people every week and become mates with them. None are closed shops though. If I know anything about football fans, the more people that they can argue with the better ;) Away travel absolutely helps.
I suppose most "established fans" don't mind just so long as you're supporting the club in some way. The real antipathy is reserved for those who seek to remain on the "outside", or, in other words, the infamous barstoolers.
I think this is a bit of a misnomer too. I don’t know anybody who cares about people who’ve no interest in the league. The only people I have a problem with, are the people who actively seek to mock and belittle Irish football.
Anyone who turns up at a game in Ireland is OK with me
Charlie Darwin
15/04/2011, 11:39 AM
From experience in other minority little "communities" that clique is often the kernel of these groups. I suppose it just comes down to human nature at the end of the day, its almost evoluntionary, from the sense of survival. I used to go to a lot of gigs on my own, or to rock bars, and it was awful cliquey in those places, as it was the same faces the whole time and sticking together.
That might be more to do with their reluctance to approach single men in bars...
paul_oshea
15/04/2011, 12:35 PM
Ya I knew that might read like that :D
Well ive often gone into these places with other people too :)
Stuttgart88
15/04/2011, 12:49 PM
The only people I have a problem with, are the people who actively seek to mock and belittle Irish football. Like Irish Times journalists who prefer GAA but think a dig at Irish football - all aspects of it - is clever.
Charlie Darwin
15/04/2011, 12:53 PM
Not so sure said journalist is doing too much laughing these days.
Stuttgart88
15/04/2011, 12:54 PM
I'm away at moment and heard a rumour. It's public knowledge obviously.
Charlie Darwin
15/04/2011, 12:56 PM
Yep. Some Shamrock Rovers fans taking far too much glee from it, unfortunately.
edit: although as far as I know it's yet to be reported by the newspaper of record
Eminence Grise
15/04/2011, 1:07 PM
It got the briefest of mentions.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0412/1224294483022.html
More lurid details are all over the internet.
edit: although as far as I know it's yet to be reported by the newspaper of record
All media are being very careful, as should here may I suggest? This thread would've been long binned on politics.ie, who seem to be going completely over the top considering what has been in print (eg The Herald have had it front page as far as I'm aware)
There's been plenty of stories about a "prominent sports journalist" but none have named him. it is pretty much common knowledge
paul_oshea
15/04/2011, 1:20 PM
Becoming mental is a great way of avoiding prosecution these days it seems....
Or at least avoiding being interviewed.
Won't be long before one of the Tabloids breaks ranks anyway
Kingdom
15/04/2011, 2:12 PM
Thankfully nothing here that hasn't been in the media so far. The Herald printed so many clues the other day that if you were involved in the sport in the capital it was almost impossible not to come to the conclusion. Unfortunately the investigation stems into so many strands of that sport that the alleged offenders name will be circulated.
As dodge says, it's only a matter of time. some columns will be worth keeping an eye on.
This thread certainly is a magical mystery tour. From TV ratings, to rugby v GAA v Irish international football, to the ills of the LOI, to the attitudes on Man U fans, to allegations about a hournalist. Mostly decent posts too.
For the record here's some of the other articles (including the herald)
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/gardai-to-question-sports-journalist-over-rape-complaint-2615428.html
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/gardai-to-question-sports-journalist-over-rape-complaint-15140735.html
http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/sports-writer-had-picture-of-naked-girl-16-on-mobile-2616629.html
peadar1987
15/04/2011, 2:55 PM
Hehe, "hournalist"!
Someone else made a similar point to this a little earlier, but I think it is strange how some people won't go to LOI games on the grounds of the crowd being "a little cliquey" (Not addressed to you, Danny, even if I'm using your words), but are perfectly happy to go day-tripping to Old Trafford or the Emirates, where they are actively hated by a large chunk of the support.
dublinred
15/04/2011, 3:18 PM
Delighted if it is who its rumoured to be , couldn't meet a bigger anti league of Ireland Galiban . One of his mates will probably leak his name in the media before the trial to try and get him off.
Charlie Darwin
15/04/2011, 3:29 PM
Why would you be delighted about what is alleged to have happened and a family being torn apart? I couldn't care less if he was the biggest LOI hater in the world.
paul_oshea
15/04/2011, 4:07 PM
Before I found out it was a sports Journalist the first person I thought of was a scruffy looking fella once married to an Irish singer. Is that wrong?
Well said CD some awful gomies support the LOI.
Well said CD some awful gomies support the LOI.
GTF! One bloke, who happens to be a fan of a LOI supporter.
And now we all think the same. Even though the first guy to put him right was a fan of a LOI club.
paul_oshea
15/04/2011, 4:26 PM
Come on Dodge, you know what the point was. I was trying to make that fella see how stupid his post was.
I was doing exactly what he was doing, and what CD said a lot were doing over on the Rovers forum.
Come on Dodge, you know what the point was. I was trying to make that fella see how stupid his post was.
No, by saying 'some LOI fans' rather than dublinred individually, you're implying its widespead.
what CD said a lot were doing over on the Rovers forum.
No, he said 'some' but I'd imagine your fervour to have a pop at Irish football fans, you read it as lots.
There's plenty of other boards out there saying far worse things about that journalist too. A lot of them not football related at all.
Eminence Grise
15/04/2011, 5:21 PM
Before I found out it was a sports Journalist the first person I thought of was a scruffy looking fella once married to an Irish singer. Is that wrong?
Yes, it is. But I briefly wondered exactly the same thing.
DannyInvincible
15/04/2011, 7:38 PM
Someone else made a similar point to this a little earlier, but I think it is strange how some people won't go to LOI games on the grounds of the crowd being "a little cliquey" (Not addressed to you, Danny, even if I'm using your words), but are perfectly happy to go day-tripping to Old Trafford or the Emirates, where they are actively hated by a large chunk of the support.
And yet Irish people have never had more of an interest in Man Utd and the EPL…
These facts bewilder me as much as anyone. I was making a comment on the state of the modern game really, though. United just happened to act as a convenient illustration.
As to why Irish people are generally more than happy and willing to act as avid patrons in this glamourous spectacle of consumption at the expense of walking ten minutes to a ground down the road, I'm not really certain. I'm sure it's quite a seductive pastime and speculating as to why would require a little more discussion, but, briefly, consuming the brand at a distance clearly suits those who wish to remain within a certain comfort zone. They generally don't have to come face to face with those who object to what is essentially their consumption of another's club. Gazing into a television isn't the most difficult thing to do and, for most when it happens, I'd argue that attending a game becomes more "making a weekend out of it" than anything else - all part of the spectacle and "experience" - so they probably don't truly engage with the local fan culture that they happen to be trampling upon.
Maybe it suits those who lack initiative and the curious notion of supporting a club, in the realest sense of the term, has never crossed their mind due to the peculiar and ingrained football supporting culture that prevails throughout Ireland enabling people to manufacture a "connection" from an early age so that it takes on the illusion of being a perfectly natural, expected and reasonable trait or habit. Then, there are others who unabashedly would rather just watch better quality football with little concern for much else along with the implications arising from this. Supporting a football team is like following a band for them, or something, I suppose.
I think this is a bit of a misnomer too. I don’t know anybody who cares about people who’ve no interest in the league. The only people I have a problem with, are the people who actively seek to mock and belittle Irish football.
The vague old field of observation and perception. I suppose that's why I mentioned those who actively seek to remain on the "outside" as opposed to those whose minds the idea of supporting a local football club has never crossed; generally implying that the former would have some problem with going to games and interacting more for reasons to do with a personal disdain reserved for the League of Ireland and everything to do with it. However, the term "barstooler" tends to be used almost exclusively in a pejorative or belittling sense. Not that I'm necessarily taking a huge deal of issue with it. I think it's an amusing term and, besides, I'm not a great fan of calcio moderno myself anyway, but each to their own and all that.
ArdeeBhoy
15/04/2011, 10:06 PM
What about those who like Irish football and across the pond and beyond??
Would agree with the 'clique' comments about some LoI fans, not that it especially bothers me, but could be off-putting to some 'fairweather' fans. They should be grateful for every punter they attract from outside their main fan base.
Especially given the parlous state of the domestic game, financially.
Personally think they need to try to improve their marketing, which is minimal at best, beyond the local press. And the facilities probably need to be improved.
Good it's now a summer game, as attending games in appalling weathers as probably had the most-off putting effect of all....
Charlie Darwin
15/04/2011, 10:19 PM
I was doing exactly what he was doing, and what CD said a lot were doing over on the Rovers forum.
I didn't say it was on the Rovers forum - unfortunately it was people I know personally. I did spot a thread on the Rovers forum while I was reading about the story though and it wasn't much different.
To be fair, Rovers fans have more reason to be hostile to the man than the average LOI fan due to the Thomas Davis/SDCC situation, but it still makes me uncomfortable that people would use that dispute to take satisfaction from this horrendous sequence of events.
As to why Irish people are generally more than happy and willing to act as avid patrons in this glamourous spectacle of consumption at the expense of walking ten minutes to a ground down the road, I'm not really certain. I'm sure it's quite a seductive pastime and speculating as to why would require a little more discussion, but, briefly, consuming the brand at a distance clearly suits those who wish to remain within a certain comfort zone. They generally don't have to come face to face with those who object to what is essentially their consumption of another's club. Gazing into a television isn't the most difficult thing to do and, for most when it happens, I'd argue that attending a game becomes more "making a weekend out of it" than anything else - all part of the spectacle and "experience" - so they probably don't truly engage with the local fan culture that they happen to be trampling upon.
I think it's probably simpler than you make it out to be. Football supporting has become, globally, a passive activity rather than an active one - and that's true in England as much as it is here. It's a very middle class thing, but the middle class is where all the money is and unfortunately middle class people tend to stick to their comfort zones, i.e. the pub or their sitting room.
Most people would rather watch the EPL in the pub where they're surrounded by friends than go to a match where they might be alone among people they don't know and that's really the crux of it. That's why it's so important that LOI clubs find a way to attract families because it's not reliant on individuals stepping outside their comfort zone - it's a family doing something together.
DannyInvincible
15/04/2011, 10:56 PM
What about those who like Irish football and across the pond and beyond??
I've no issue there. They're doing their bit, or whatever you'd call it. I was really commenting on those who actively ignore the league or wish it ill will. If someone likes to watch Arsenal, Barcelona or whoever play football on television every week, that's fine - I regularly do it myself because I enjoy watching football - but, in my opinion, it's unfortunate when the majority of the great Irish sporting public, as they say, have absolutely no interest in bettering the Irish game and fail to detect why football in general is moving in the direction that it is.
ArdeeBhoy
16/04/2011, 1:16 AM
Aye, but a lot of that is to do with marketing, 'brand image' and what is perceived to be ultimately a fairly poor product, sadly.
Aye, but a lot of that is to do with marketing, 'brand image' and what is perceived to be ultimately a fairly poor product, sadly.
thats a pretty damning indictment of the average Irish fan.
ArdeeBhoy
16/04/2011, 1:31 AM
Except I never mentioned fans, was talking about the LoI competition (& domestic soccer generally) in recent times, well the last 20 years or so.
Charlie Darwin
16/04/2011, 1:56 PM
Well the "perceived to be" bit would be the fans.
I think most LOI fans are well able to appreciate good football from abroad, but the people who criticise the LOI for lack of quality, from my experience, aren't the best arbiters of quality. I don't think a lot of EPL fans appreciate just how awful some of the games in that league are. Manchester City for instance - full of world class players but rarely provide world class football. And don't even get me started on the teams managers like Tony Pulis/Roy Hodgson/Sam Allardyce put out.
However, the term "barstooler" tends to be used almost exclusively in a pejorative or belittling sense. Not that I'm necessarily taking a huge deal of issue with it. I think it's an amusing term and, besides, I'm not a great fan of calcio moderno myself anyway, but each to their own and all that.
It is, on internet message boards. Not sure I've ever heard in real life, certainly never thrown at anybody. But people will come up with any excuse to try and justify themselves - from terms used on internet forums, to now seemingly attitudes towards a journalist*. They'll take being called a "tourist 'insert appropriate expletive'" by UK clubs fans, either in person or in fanzines etc and won't let it bother them. They're the ones with the problem, not the LoI fans. If it wasn't that, it'd be something else.
*Obviously I'd rather the things alleged didn't happen, but its better people are caught, and there's always a nod to karma when those viewed as sanctimonious people are the ones up to no good. I really couldn't give a toss if other sanctimonious people have a problem with that view.
SkStu
16/04/2011, 11:08 PM
If i may quote this piece from the Bohs mb, posted a few minutes ago. Captures my feelings on the matter. Excuse the language :)
Do you know what.
I've made my peace with Irish people who are die hard fans of Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea and increasingly Barcelona. The class of football the elite clubs provide is far superior than anything the LOI ever did, or ever will, offer up. And what's more, you will nearly always see your team win something (well, maybe not Arsenal) so, as an entertainment prospect, following an elite level English club makes sense over supporting the local gob****es who will just break your heart.
What boils my **** is... Irish people who support Stoke, Blackburn, Sheffield Wednesday, or any number of **** English teams because they think they are more "real" or "hardcore" then the Paddies who glory-hunt after the good teams.
If you want the kudos of supporting a **** team through thick or thin, support LOI, you ****.
If you want to plug into what football is all about, support your local team whoever they are, you ****-sucker.
If being Irish means something to you, then support real Irish teams not fake Scottish teams, you wankstain.
Obviously, I am excepting anybody who puts their local team first before they enjoy English or other league football.
http://yfrog.com/h896581942j
Sunday world exclusive...
Didn't take long
ArdeeBhoy
17/04/2011, 6:05 AM
Well the "perceived to be" bit would be the fans.
Actually was talking more generally as in not LOI soccer officinados, but yer fave groups of 'fairweather', 'barstoolers' and general Irish sports fans.
So not exactly the same, at all.
Sunday world exclusive...
Didn't take long
Now there's a quandry for the vindictive element of LoI fans - he's named, but McCaffery taking the credit!
pineapple stu
17/04/2011, 6:21 PM
Aye, but a lot of that is to do with marketing, 'brand image' and what is perceived to be ultimately a fairly poor product, sadly.
thats a pretty damning indictment of the average Irish fan.
I don't think people following brand images without thinking is unique to football or Irish people in fairness.
DannyInvincible
17/04/2011, 7:00 PM
I don't think people following brand images without thinking is unique to football or Irish people in fairness.
This is true, although, for whatever reason, Ireland does tend to have a football supporting culture that arguably isn't what one might deem the norm.
I don't think people following brand images without thinking is unique to football or Irish people in fairness.
But we are talking in terms of football. I think pride in your locality/sense of community is a far, far more prevalent and, in fact, the overwhelmingly dominant factor for following a football team in 99% of the footballing world i would say.
Charlie Darwin
17/04/2011, 7:36 PM
Not sure about that. Or at least people can operate on both levels, ie supporting Liverpool and Ireland. I don't know how many Slovaks supported Zilina before they qualified for the CL or how many Belorussians supported BATE. I think a lot of it just has to do with the weakness of the league (in comparison to others) - the only way you can see the top Irish players in action is to watch the EPL and I think that's it for a lot of people. Obviously there are people who just enjoy the better standard of football and the fact that a lot of people won't have any LOI-supporting friends, so you'll gravitate towards English football just to fit in.
okay, and i dont disagree with a lot of that CD but heres a question that gets missed... why identify with "Ireland"? Why not Galway? south Dublin? Cork? Limerick?
The amount of english people I have met who dont like their national team at all purely for the fact that they identify more as someone from Liverpool, Newcastle, Leeds than as being someone from England. I also used to hang around with a French person and a Brazilian person both of whom felt the same.
Whatever the true reasoning is, we are certainly a strange bunch when it comes to football supporting.
Charlie Darwin
17/04/2011, 8:09 PM
Ireland's a pretty small place. It's surprising that the GAA is able to work the county rivalries so well.
BonnieShels
17/04/2011, 10:45 PM
Not sure about that. Or at least people can operate on both levels, ie supporting Liverpool and Ireland. I don't know how many Slovaks supported Zilina before they qualified for the CL or how many Belorussians supported BATE. I think a lot of it just has to do with the weakness of the league (in comparison to others) - the only way you can see the top Irish players in action is to watch the EPL and I think that's it for a lot of people. Obviously there are people who just enjoy the better standard of football and the fact that a lot of people won't have any LOI-supporting friends, so you'll gravitate towards English football just to fit in.
Interesting article in WSC this month about Zilina. Owner of the club is a huge Zilina fan.
Interesting aspect of it though is that a lot of people came to the Zilina-Chelsea to support and see Chelsea. What I got from it is that the smaller local leagues in Europe are all slowly dying a death.
ArdeeBhoy
17/04/2011, 11:00 PM
To be fair to the Irish people, many of them don't have a club from their community.
And even if they all did, can you imagine eg. if every northside Dub soccer fan tried to go to Bohs, their ground/facilities aren't remotely up to it anymore, in terms of say a 5k+ crowd.
And pretty sure many of their regulars would be pretty peed off also?
The same applies to every other domestic Irish soccer ground I've been to, with the exception of Tolka.
Charlie Darwin
17/04/2011, 11:39 PM
To be fair to the Irish people, many of them don't have a club from their community.
Some of us support teams that didn't have a home for twenty years. Sligo and Longford aren't exactly the most densely-populated parts of the world and they attract fans from (shock horror!) across the arbitrary and completely artificial county borders. If people don't feel like getting up from their couches to support a team that's fine but that doesn't mean those who don't live in towns with a strong football teams have no options.
And even if they all did, can you imagine eg. if every northside Dub soccer fan tried to go to Bohs, their ground/facilities aren't remotely up to it anymore, in terms of say a 5k+ crowd.
And pretty sure many of their regulars would be pretty peed off also?
The same applies to every other domestic Irish soccer ground I've been to, with the exception of Tolka.
You're not a genuine fan if you don't want your club's support to grow. It's a football club, not a golf society. Dalymount is ropey but if Bohs thought they would be getting 5k a week they'd clean it up pretty quickly. Valencia aside, investing in infrastructure tends to be the surest way for a club to make more money. In fact, they may have planned just that in anticipation of Sporting Fingal's rampant home support...
Tallaght is a top stadium. Flancare is acceptable. Showgrounds are good. The field in Athlone is nice too. Haven't seen it Wexford's is supposed to be good too. There are a few good stadiums about.
peadar1987
18/04/2011, 12:01 AM
To be fair to the Irish people, many of them don't have a club from their community.
And even if they all did, can you imagine eg. if every northside Dub soccer fan tried to go to Bohs, their ground/facilities aren't remotely up to it anymore, in terms of say a 5k+ crowd.
And pretty sure many of their regulars would be pretty peed off also?
The same applies to every other domestic Irish soccer ground I've been to, with the exception of Tolka.
To be fair, concerns about the ticket availability and stewarding problems aren't what's keeping northside Dubs from supporting Bohs.
To be fair to the Irish people, many of them don't have a club from their community.
this is a fair point. But focus instead on the centres that do have, at least, one team in the top 2 flights. Its very strange that such a tiny minority have an interest in live football.
And even if they all did, can you imagine eg. if every northside Dub soccer fan tried to go to Bohs, their ground/facilities aren't remotely up to it anymore, in terms of say a 5k+ crowd..
chicken and egg situation in fairness and a pretty lame excuse. We can very safely and quite comfortably accommodate 4000 fans in Dalymount. We usually get less than half that.
And pretty sure many of their regulars would be pretty peed off also?
No way. Trust me AB. You wont meet a more welcoming and fun crowd than LOI fans in general. You would be respected for going to even just a five home games a season (wherever that would be for you).
To be fair to the Irish people, many of them don't have a club from their community.
So they support a club hundreds of miles away in a different country instead? Sorry, I just don't buy that argument. We've fans from across county borders - I can name a few rossies even amongst people I'd know. Never stopped the insufferable Lunsters either, to switch codes on the thread again.
DannyInvincible
18/04/2011, 9:28 AM
So they support a club hundreds of miles away in a different country instead? Sorry, I just don't buy that argument.
Was about to make a similar point.
tetsujin1979
18/04/2011, 10:30 AM
switching codes again, the IRFU have announced the prices for the Summer test series against England and France: http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/22968.php
GUINNESS SUMMER SERIES: HOME GAME TICKET PRICES
Premium: €50
Category 1: €40
Category 2: €30
Category 3: Family Ticket €60 (adult €20, child €10 based on two adults and two children)
Category 4: €20
Schoolboy/girl: €10
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