Rugby now more popular than football AND GAA?!

[gastric]

If the World Cup comes to Ireland, there will be no reason to worry in the North as Ireland will not play there due to crowd capacity. The IRFU will play all Irish games at Croker if possible to maximise revenue. A money making bonanza for the IRFU.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd be surprised if Ireland got it this time around especially as it seems to be mainly based on promises to develop stadiums, but then again the government have never needed an excuse to throw money at the GAA to develop infrastructure they'll barely use.

[DannyInvincible]

Has there been a complete list of possible venues earmarked? I've heard Lansdowne, Croke Park, Thomond Park, Ravenhill, Casement Park, Semple Stadium, MacHale Park, Pearse Stadium, the Limerick Gaelic Grounds and Páirc Uí Chaoimh... Is that the complete list?

[osarusan]

I'd be surprised if Ireland got it this time around especially as it seems to be mainly based on promises to develop stadiums, but then again the government have never needed an excuse to throw money at the GAA to develop infrastructure they'll barely use.

I'd have guessed/hoped that one of the criteria would be how the money spent would have some kind of legacy effect at promoting the game - in that cases the revelopment of GAA stadia might not go down too well (although without them, there's not a hope of Ireland hosting the event).

[DeLorean]

I'd be surprised if Ireland got it this time around especially as it seems to be mainly based on promises to develop stadiums, but then again the government have never needed an excuse to throw money at the GAA to develop infrastructure they'll barely use.

Obviously they paid a lot towards Croke Park, but that hardly falls into the barely used category. They're giving a nice bit towards PUC, which is in desperate need of redevelopment and will offer a decent alternative to CP/Dublin for a lot of events. What else have they contributed towards, I'm sure there's been plenty but I'm just curious?

[tetsujin1979]

Has there been a complete list of possible venues earmarked? I've heard Lansdowne, Croke Park, Thomond Park, Ravenhill, Casement Park, Semple Stadium, MacHale Park, Pearse Stadium, the Limerick Gaelic Grounds and Páirc Uí Chaoimh... Is that the complete list?
Think Musgrave Park, or Independent Park, or whatever its name is now was mentioned as well

[DannyInvincible]

I know Limerick play in Thomond, but it's a shame the re-development of at least one or two club football grounds couldn't be tied into this as well. Tallaght could be "completed" at the end and there's been talk of re-developing Dalymount for years. Is that something that may go ahead as part of the legacy of Dublin's hosting of Euro 2020? The likes of Turner's Cross would have foundations there. Re-development plans for the Brandywell are also being realised (finally).

[osarusan]

It's a bit ridiculous really that Galway Sportsgrounds, home of Connaught rugby, isn't getting redeveloped to bring it up to scratch for a few group games at least.

[Gather round]

England are using 13 venues next year (including the MilStad in Cardiff); Japan expect to have 10-12 in 2019.

Good if it happens and is spread around Ireland, esp to Rugby relative hotbeds. There should be an Ulster country venue. Exeter (the smallest and most remote venue in England 2015) holds 12,000 and will stage Italy v Romania and Namibia against Tonga and Georgia. Ballymena or wherever should be able to handle that with a bit of planning.

Good to hear plans for Brandywell

[Charlie Darwin]

I know Limerick play in Thomond, but it's a shame the re-development of at least one or two club football grounds couldn't be tied into this as well. Tallaght could be "completed" at the end and there's been talk of re-developing Dalymount for years. Is that something that may go ahead as part of the legacy of Dublin's hosting of Euro 2020? The likes of Turner's Cross would have foundations there. Re-development plans for the Brandywell are also being realised (finally).
The reasonable maximum capacity of Tallaght in the short term wouldn't be much over 10,000 if both ends were developed, so even if it was developed it would be at the very lowest level. It would probably depend on the council contributing a couple of million when the area has much more acute problems than the lack of a rugby stadium.

[Dodge]

It's a bit ridiculous really that Galway Sportsgrounds, home of Connaught rugby, isn't getting redeveloped to bring it up to scratch for a few group games at least.

I think the minimum capacity for the World Cup is 12,000. Current capacity there is 7,500 so it would need a fair bit of work. Still think it'd be preferable to using Castlebar GAA as the "western" ground as rumoured.

[Mr A]

Ideally Connacht would develop a ground elsewhere. Sharing the sportsground with the greyhounds is pretty crap.

[DannyInvincible]

It would probably depend on the council contributing a couple of million when the area has much more acute problems than the lack of a rugby stadium.

Like the lack of a decent GAA stadium.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I'd be surprised if Ireland got it this time around especially as it seems to be mainly based on promises to develop stadiums, but then again the government have never needed an excuse to throw money at the GAA to develop infrastructure they'll barely use.

Except, like it or not, GAA is our national sport. And the crowd stats bear this out in the main. Though take yer 'Jap' man's point about 'legacy' re. the egg chasing.

Anyway, simply by virtue of the few countries capable of a RWC, it really 'must' be our turn?

[DeLorean]

I'd be surprised if Ireland got it this time around especially as it seems to be mainly based on promises to develop stadiums, but then again the government have never needed an excuse to throw money at the GAA to develop infrastructure they'll barely use.


Obviously they paid a lot towards Croke Park, but that hardly falls into the barely used category. They're giving a nice bit towards PUC, which is in desperate need of redevelopment and will offer a decent alternative to CP/Dublin for a lot of events. What else have they contributed towards, I'm sure there's been plenty but I'm just curious?

Charlie, I'm going to insist you explain yourself. And in future, you're going to have to stop ignoring questions :D

[ArdeeBhoy]

Oh, please don't...
:eek:

[Real ale Madrid]

Has there been a complete list of possible venues earmarked? I've heard Lansdowne, Croke Park, Thomond Park, Ravenhill, Casement Park, Semple Stadium, MacHale Park, Pearse Stadium, the Limerick Gaelic Grounds and Páirc Uí Chaoimh... Is that the complete list?

I don't think Semple Stadium is being considered - but Fitzgerald Stadium in Killarney - Killarney must have more hotel rooms than anywhere else in the country.

[DannyInvincible]

Except, like it or not, GAA is our national sport. And the crowd stats bear this out in the main. Though take yer 'Jap' man's point about 'legacy' re. the egg chasing.

Anyway, simply by virtue of the few countries capable of a RWC, it really 'must' be our turn?

Whilst it is the third most popular spectator sport in Ireland after Gaelic football and hurling, association football is the most widely-played sport in the country: http://www.esri.ie/pdf/BKMNINT180_Main%20Text_Social%20and%20Economic%20V alue%20of%20Sport.pdf

There are a few other rugby upstarts vying for the honours of hosting in 2023, including, the US & Canada, Italy, Argentina and Japan. France and South Africa have also expressed interest.

[tetsujin1979]

Can't see it going to South Africa, they've already hosted it, and they had the World cup in 2014.
I genuinely think Italy are the biggest contenders, they've the stadiums, the infrastructure, the hotel rooms and the accessibility. They could host the tournament tomorrow if they wanted.

[Real ale Madrid]

Whilst it is the third most popular spectator sport in Ireland after Gaelic football and hurling, association football is the most widely-played sport in the country: http://www.esri.ie/pdf/BKMNINT180_Main%20Text_Social%20and%20Economic%20V alue%20of%20Sport.pdf

There are a few other rugby upstarts vying for the honours of hosting in 2023, including, the US & Canada, Italy, Argentina and Japan. France and South Africa have also expressed interest.

Japan have 2019
France had it in 2007
The big contenders are Italy and South Africa imo. Both with far superior infrastructure to ours.
Argentina will bid as well but they can't sell out home games in the rugby championship so it will be too big a risk for World Rugby to go there.

USA / Canada would be interesting but I think it s a bit premature to be going there considering before the NZ / USA game lately the biggest attendance at a rugby game was about 30k in the US.

[tetsujin1979]

another big disadvantage for Argentina is that it's far to travel for all the big rugby markets (western europe and Australia/NZ/SA) whereas the other options are handy enough for at least one of the markets

[DeLorean]

Do we know when it'll be announced?

[geysir]

Whilst it is the third most popular spectator sport in Ireland after Gaelic football and hurling, association football is the most widely-played sport in the country: http://www.esri.ie/pdf/BKMNINT180_Main%20Text_Social%20and%20Economic%20V alue%20of%20Sport.pdf

There are a few other rugby upstarts vying for the honours of hosting in 2023, including, the US & Canada, Italy, Argentina and Japan. France and South Africa have also expressed interest.
Surely you are not quoting the soccer participation statistic from that ESRI document which for minimum academic standards of presentation you should have reference a specific paragraph not the whole document? :)
Page 35 onwards of that document, Soccer participation (graph p 36) is defined by the ESRI as also participating in an informal 30 minute, 5 a side, once a week. Some 60% of adult (>16 years) who claimed soccer participation, did it away from a club and only 40% was done at a soccer club.
GAA have 300,000 registered players who are members of a GAA club and who do 98% of their GAA participation at the GAA club. Even a very superficial glance at the state of both codes throughout the country bears witness to poor state of soccer.
If the sports participation figures bore some relation to reality, the picture of the state of soccer throughout the country would be very different.
The big issue that soccer has in relation to the GAA and IRFU is that it's 'infrastructurally' challenged and however involved youth under 16 years are with soccer at school or club, they mainly graduate from that school or club soccer field. towards the barstool level of participation.
Shamrock Rovers are doing nicely with their training and academy, though it looks pretty basic and minimal, but in Ireland that's top of the line. A leading club like SR with their profile and base should be aiming to have many standards of teams, across 10 age categories, for both sexes and an overall manager for each age level.

[DannyInvincible]

Surely you are not quoting the soccer participation statistic from that ESRI document which for minimum academic standards of presentation you should have reference a specific paragraph not the whole document? :)
Page 35 onwards of that document, Soccer participation (graph p 36) is defined by the ESRI as also participating in an informal 30 minute, 5 a side, once a week. Some 60% of adult (>16 years) who claimed soccer participation, did it away from a club and only 40% was done at a soccer club.
GAA have 300,000 registered players who are members of a GAA club and who do 98% of their GAA participation at the GAA club. Even a very superficial glance at the state of both codes throughout the country bears witness to poor state of soccer.
If the sports participation figures bore some relation to reality, the picture of the state of soccer throughout the country would be very different.
The big issue that soccer has in relation to the GAA and IRFU is that it's 'infrastructurally' challenged and however involved youth under 16 years are with soccer at school or club, they mainly graduate from that school or club soccer field. towards the barstool level of participation.
Shamrock Rovers are doing nicely with their training and academy, though it looks pretty basic and minimal, but in Ireland that's top of the line. A leading club like SR with their profile and base should be aiming to have many standards of teams, across 10 age categories, for both sexes and an overall manager for each age level.

I agree. I wasn't trying to portray football as being in a healthy state in Ireland in spite of its obvious popularity. If anything, it's an even greater shame that football is in such a poor nation-wide state given how popular it is.

[OwlsFan]

11 pages in Saturday's Independent devoted to rugby. Ok, I shouldn't be surprised at a paper which set aside 5 pages to Steve Gerrard's retirement but I am not sure even Italia '90 got such coverage.

Looks like we're a poor third ok to the GAA and rugby but who cares.

[paul_oshea]

Where's dodge to spout his usual faux stats about soccer participation in ireland?

[Stuttgart88]

Nothing succeeds like success.

I'd still hazard a substantial wager that Man United or Liverpool are more popular in, say, Dublin than Leinster rugby. If Liverpool moved to Dublin during the Anfield refurb I'd say the crowds would be huge.

In GAA we're a key player in a field of one. Rugby satisfies our national need for external recognition and endorsement. In football we're a peripheral figure in a global economic, sporting and social phenomenon. Irish football ticks none of the boxes in today's generation's must have list. If we were one of six only countries allowed to compete in an annual European Championships we'd get more coverage, especially when we're likely to win it!

As Owls Fan says, who cares? I see following the BIG as a higher calling.

[DeLorean]

As Owls Fan says, who cares?

62 pages of repetition suggest some must care. God knows why.

[Stuttgart88]

It's a debate that, like most, contains a lot of nuance. There are plenty that have you believe a simple doctrine of oval ball good, round (i.e., normal!) ball bad. It's not that simple and most of my rants on this thread have been in that context.

I don't think Owls Fan was saying it's not an issue, just that for him following Ireland in football is a non-negotiable, through sickness and health type thing. That's how it is for me.

If the thread title was "rugby now more successful than soccer" the thread would have died after one page, maybe coming to life for a few days after we beat Estonia!

[DeLorean]

I wasn't being sarcastic when I said 'God knows why', just in case you took it that way. For me it is a bit of a non issue, certainly in the context of the thread title, which is way too vague. When broken down I think it's fairly obvious which is more popular, case by case, but there are just too many variables to bother coming to a definitive conclusion. I'll start with your one as an obvious example of which is more popular in terms of widespread interest in Ireland:

Man Utd, Liverpool, etc > Munster, Leinster, etc
Man Utd, Liverpool, etc > International Rugby
International Rugby > Dundalk, Bohs, etc
Munster, Leinster, etc > Dundalk, Bohs, etc
6 Nations > Your average soccer qualifier
Ireland in the Soccer World Cup > Ireland in the Rugby World Cup
Rugby test > Soccer friendly
Champions League > European Rugby Champions Cup
BOD > Robbie Keane
Roy Keane > Humanity

[geysir]

Nothing succeeds like success.

I'd still hazard a substantial wager that Man United or Liverpool are more popular in, say, Dublin than Leinster rugby. If Liverpool moved to Dublin during the Anfield refurb I'd say the crowds would be huge.

In GAA we're a key player in a field of one. Rugby satisfies our national need for external recognition and endorsement. In football we're a peripheral figure in a global economic, sporting and social phenomenon. Irish football ticks none of the boxes in today's generation's must have list. If we were one of six only countries allowed to compete in an annual European Championships we'd get more coverage, especially when we're likely to win it!

As Owls Fan says, who cares? I see following the BIG as a higher calling.
Football has a big popularity of course, I'd say a major issue is that much or most of the income earned from that popularity does not go back to the local game, attendance of epl games is one obvious issue but another is income in the form of subscription sport income goes directly to the EPL after Sky takes it cut. That's about EUR300m in a year in total in Irish Sky subscriptions alone.
The GAA and IRFU earn a much higher proportion of income paid by the audience of their sport, both with attendance and tv subscription income than Irish football does.

One thing that has changed relatively recently was that the vat income from Irish sky subs will no longer go to the UK exchequer, from 2015 it's estimated by the bean counters that by then it will be worth about Eur100m to the irish state.
Sports bodies should certainly demand their rights for their slice of that and get out of the cap in hand mentality.

[gastric]

Nothing succeeds like success.

I'd still hazard a substantial wager that Man United or Liverpool are more popular in, say, Dublin than Leinster rugby. If Liverpool moved to Dublin during the Anfield refurb I'd say the crowds would be huge.

In GAA we're a key player in a field of one. Rugby satisfies our national need for external recognition and endorsement. In football we're a peripheral figure in a global economic, sporting and social phenomenon. Irish football ticks none of the boxes in today's generation's must have list. If we were one of six only countries allowed to compete in an annual European Championships we'd get more coverage, especially when we're likely to win it!

As Owls Fan says, who cares? I see following the BIG as a higher calling.

You're on the money Stutts. Personally, I get more excited atm by rugby than international football which actually saddens me

[DeLorean]

Glory hunters sadden me too :p

[Paddy Garcia]

I wasn't being sarcastic when I said 'God knows why', just in case you took it that way. For me it is a bit of a non issue, certainly in the context of the thread title, which is way too vague. When broken down I think it's fairly obvious which is more popular, case by case, but there are just too many variables to bother coming to a definitive conclusion. I'll start with your one as an obvious example of which is more popular in terms of widespread interest in Ireland:

Man Utd, Liverpool, etc > Munster, Leinster, etc
Man Utd, Liverpool, etc > International Rugby
International Rugby > Dundalk, Bohs, etc
Munster, Leinster, etc > Dundalk, Bohs, etc
6 Nations > Your average soccer qualifier
Ireland in the Soccer World Cup > Ireland in the Rugby World Cup
Rugby test > Soccer friendly
Champions League > European Rugby Champions Cup
BOD > Robbie Keane
Roy Keane > Humanity

Foreign teams - God knows why is right!!!

[punkrocket]

I'll always cheer for Ireland no matter what the sport and take great pleasure in the rugby team doing well but the coverage it gets is a bit much and gets on my wick a bit. There were 5 pages in the IT yesterday but the Frampton fight, a defending world champion got 2 wee columns in the inside back page. The guy is a phenomenal and truly world class Irish sportsman but the elitist media are barely aware of him.

[Dodge]

https://ewanmackenna.wordpress.com/2015/03/02/think-this-is-rugby-country-then-think-again/

Ewan McKenna in the Sunday Business post

[Stuttgart88]

Interesting to hear that comment about the media directly from a journalist. The different media attitudes towards each code have been oft complained about here.

The article reflects what I instinctively believed on many fronts and the advertising guff sbout "rugby country" has always driven me mental. I understand Diageo will only use Carlsberg as its soccer brand, even in Ireland where Guinness will be popular among soccer fans

However, I think it's unfair to refer to Neil Francis' comments. Most of my rugby mates were livid with how he made his point. It tilts the article in a direction that it didn't need to go in.

There's quite a bitter tone to the article which doesn't do it any favours either.

I also have some sympathy for my rugby mate who has no truck with the South East Dublin privileged rugby scene or those who use a home test as a proxy for Horse Show Week, when he says sports can't choose their followers. Ok, so rugby's heartland is the middle class but it's very possible to love the game without self identifying with the "scene".

I was at home for my own (fee paying rugby playing) school reunion at the weekend. Several of the keener rugby fans among the attendees were very disillusioned at how the AIL clubs are neglected under the current structures.

Part of me feels that rugby today is like U2 in the 80s: liked by many who don't like much other music. Ok, that probably just highlights me as a music snob / sports snob!

I'd also take issue with the skill level. A good old agricultural hoof up the pitch seems pretty common in all sports other than footy, and in my opinion the touch and spatial awareness required in footy is what makes it stand out. In rugby if you receive the ball you can usually just take the hit and recycle if you can't find an out ball. In rugby when you receive the ball you almost always know you can't be tackled from behind you. There'd be no chance of a guy playing football professionally who only took up the sport after school (John Hayes). The IRFU is actively seeking athletes from other sports. In football it'd be too late for these guys.

This isn't a criticism, but it's perspective which seems to be lost in the hysteria.

If only football required being able to beat our neighbouring countries to reach the same adulation.

[OwlsFan]

Yes good article and also the comments from Stutts. The 6 (once 5) Nations Championship is a great product and I have to say I have greatly enjoyed it over the years even though I am not a rugby fan as such. I have never gone to see Leinster play and have perhaps been to 5 internationals in my life, which includes the one yesterday where a friend over from the UK brought me a ticket. What struck me about the supporters is the large absence of colour, although it was a very cold day so green tops would not be much in evidence. Flags were provided though for the supports. The fans were mostly middle-aged but when I go to football games many are in their twenties. What really irritates me is this "shhhssssish" when an opponent is about to take a kick at goal. For God's sake, he trying to score against your team - try and put him off not this "oh are we wonderfully sporting fans" "shsssssish". It is I believe an attempt to show how different they are from the neanderthals who support football. It always reminds me of the rugby fan interviewed by RTE on the way back from the cancelled game in Paris who said "Imagine what would have happened if it was a soccer match!!!" (i.e. we fans would have rioted).

I believe the writer is correct that rugby is primarily a sport of the middle classes and I have no issue with that nor do I think football should be worried about rugby. I went for a drink with my friend in a pub away from the ground in what one may term a working class area and there wasn't one rugby colour being worn. I believe football and the GAA will always be the people's sport. Does anyone think that if the rugby team won the world cup that the crowds welcoming the team back would approach the numbers who welcomed back an Irish football team which made the quarter-finals of the football world cup. It is making in-roads ok but not in the football or GAA heartlands and a successful football team would soon relegate them back to a clear third place.

In the meantime, it was great to beat England (can't get quite get used to the idea of being surrounded by the other team's supporters) and to hear the chariot being shouted down (unsporting??) and really looking forward to the Welsh game.

p.s. I believe UEFA/FIFA think along the same lines as that TV rugby supporter I mentioned earlier. Lots of playbacks of the crucial moments, including nasty fouls, on the big screens. None for those of us who attend football games? Will we riot ? Does the GAA also exclude them at game?

[Charlie Darwin]

What really irritates me is this "shhhssssish" when an opponent is about to take a kick at goal. For God's sake, he trying to score against your team - try and put him off not this "oh are we wonderfully sporting fans" "shsssssish".
The silence is to put them off. Most kickers would rather a bit of noise in the background than dead silence.

[Stuttgart88]

I think the crowds would be huge if we won the RWC!

That's neither here nor there though. I know rugby fans who root against Irish and other football. I know of no football fans who'd do the same in reverse. As Tets is alive to, there is a tendency for rugby to pat itself on the back by comparing the best of its code to the worst of football's. The best of anything versus the worst of anything will always be an unfair comparison.

[tetsujin1979]

p.s. I believe UEFA/FIFA think along the same lines as that TV rugby supporter I mentioned earlier. Lots of playbacks of the crucial moments, including nasty fouls, on the big screens. None for those of us who attend football games? Will we riot ? Does the GAA also exclude them at game?
Can't comment on GAA, but I read before that FIFA/UEFA exclude controversial moments from the big screens at games because it constitutes a form of video refereeing, e.g. ref gets an offside incorrect, big screen shows the mistake, crowd gets mad


As Tets is alive to, there is a tendency for rugby to pat itself on the back by comparing the best of its code to the worst of football's. The best of anything versus the worst of anything will always be an unfair comparison.
Same in GAA, not really worth comparing an all Ireland final to 15 vs 16th in the Premier League on the last day of the season. Compare it to the latter stages of the Champions League, or compare a game from the opening rounds of the Allianz League to a CL game and we'll talk

[DannyInvincible]

https://ewanmackenna.wordpress.com/2015/03/02/think-this-is-rugby-country-then-think-again/

Ewan McKenna in the Sunday Business post

Can rugby genuinely be considered a nationwide sport outside of south Dublin, Limerick and Ulster (mainly east of the Bann)? It isn't an accessible sport for the vast majority of Irish people around the country, is it? Growing up in Donegal/Derry, it didn't really enter my sphere of awareness/consciousness until, aged 13, I happened to catch Ulster winning the 1999 Heineken Cup one Saturday afternoon on RTÉ, and then it was gone again. Being a son of Ulster, I was delighted to see Ulster win that and I felt a sort of innocent pride, but I had no real comprehension of the social dynamic behind the game in Ireland at the time.

I enjoy watching rugby; I think it's a great game for excitement and all that. In fact, I think I would have really enjoyed playing it had we ever done it more than just the once during PE back in school in Derry. I'm sure I've shared this anecdote before, but that week, one lad in my class who was a member of Ógra Shinn Féin had his mother write him a note to excuse him for playing a "foreign game". We all thought it was hilarious as it was so over-the-top, but, indeed, he sat out PE that week. Sure enough, the following week it was business as usual again for us and him; back to playing (association) football, that other game of English origin!

I'm pleased when Ireland win in rugby, but I don't think I'll ever be able to call it "my sport", nor would I feel all that comfortable taking it completely under my wing, so to speak. That's for a few reasons. I'd feel like I was glory-hunting or hopping on a bandwagon because I've never had a connection to the game growing up. I'm not fully up-to-speed on the rules; I'd feel a bit embarrassed getting behind a game for which I didn't fully comprehend the rules. Obviously, that's something one can easily do something about - you can have a read of the rule-book - but the "stench" of privilege, to which MacKenna refers, that pervades the game in Ireland (or south Dublin/D4 mostly) is also off-putting. There's a haughty sense of superiority about it. I should make clear that that's not to condemn everyone interested or involved in the game with the same brush. Stutts, for example, is from a rugby background (if I'm not mistaken), but you're very grounded and aware of a lot of the bull and nauseating stuff that surrounds the game. In Ulster, it was always the sport of unionist privilege and was only ever played seriously by Protestant grammar schools, some of which didn't even have an association football team, as if it would have been "too dirty/common" or something. Foyle & Londonderry College, for example, had rugby, cricket and hockey teams but no football team. Only in the last few years has association football been played in the school. Although pupils from Catholic and nationalist backgrounds do attend in the minority, the notion of Gaelic football being played there would be a pipe-dream. Rugby is shaking off that elitist image now, but for that combination of factors, I just find it hard to call it "my sport", like I do with football. It doesn't remotely stir the same same sort of passions in me.

Football is the truly global sport, which is why, historically, Irish people from all classes, both north and south, have been comfortable affiliating with it. Because it has been a truly global sport for so long, it hasn't had that "British/foreign/garrison/elitist game" stigma to contend with, or at least not in recent times with the possible exception of some ultra-insular GAA folk.

I appreciate the whole privileged and "superior" social scene thing is not necessarily intrinsic to the game, as Stutts says - isn't it considered a sport for all classes and sections of society in Wales (and in Limerick too?)? - but it is something I find somewhat repellent and almost impossible to overlook as it's so consuming and prevalent. I'd feel uncomfortable being completely associated with it as it's just not really "me" or "my thing". Maybe that says more about me than those who follow the game though! I know Stutts refers to possible bitterness in such thinking (with specific reference to MacKenna's piece), but is it bitterness? Or is it just that it has never really been part of my upbringing/culture so the whole social side of it feels a bit alien to me?

When I see the disproportionate level of celebratory coverage dedicated to it in the Irish media compared to the much more popular and accessible football, maybe that's bitterness I'm feeling then! :p

[DeLorean]

The GAA also block out those replays, it's annoying but it makes sense. The referees get enough stick without fueling the fire.

CD- I know most kickers say they'd prefer noise than silence, but are you sure that's the reason for the it? I've always seen it as (an unnecessary) mark of respect. Anyway, there's also silence when Sexton's kicking, so that doesn't really add up.

[Charlie Darwin]

CD- I know most kickers say they'd prefer noise than silence, but are you sure that's the reason for the it? I've always seen it as (an unnecessary) mark of respect. Anyway, there's also silence when Sexton's kicking, so that doesn't really add up.
Was a mix of both when I was in school, but it was drilled into you that silence is more intimidating than booing. It's different when you're at home.

[gastric]

Can rugby genuinely be considered a nationwide sport outside of south Dublin, Limerick and Ulster (mainly east of the Bann)? It isn't an accessible sport for the vast majority of Irish people around the country, is it? Growing up in Donegal/Derry, it didn't really enter my sphere of awareness/consciousness until, aged 13, I happened to catch Ulster winning the 1999 Heineken Cup one Saturday afternoon on RTÉ, and then it was gone again. Being a son of Ulster, I was delighted to see Ulster win that and I felt a sort of innocent pride, but I had no real comprehension of the social dynamic behind the game in Ireland at the time.

I enjoy watching rugby; I think it's a great game for excitement and all that. In fact, I think I would have really enjoyed playing it had we ever done it more than just the once during PE back in school in Derry. I'm sure I've shared this anecdote before, but that week, one lad in my class who was a member of Ógra Shinn Féin had his mother write him a note to excuse him for playing the "foreign game". We all thought it was hilarious, but, indeed, he sat out PE that week. Sure enough, the following week it was business as usual again; back to playing (association) football!

I'm pleased when Ireland win in rugby, but I don't think I'll ever be able to call it "my sport", nor would I feel all that comfortable taking it completely under my wing, so to speak. That's for a few reasons. I'd feel like I was hopping on a bandwagon because I've never had a connection to the game growing up. I'm not fully up-to-speed on the rules; I'd feel a bit embarrassed getting behind a game for which I didn't fully comprehend the rules. Obviously, that's something one can easily do something about - you can have a read of the rule-book - but the "stench" of privilege, to which MacKenna refers, that pervades the game in Ireland (or south Dublin mostly) is also off-putting. There's a haughty sense of superiority about it. I should make clear that that's not to condemn everyone interested or involved in the game with the same brush. Stutts, for example, is from a rugby background (if I'm not mistaken), but you're very grounded and aware of a lot of the bull and nauseating stuff that surrounds it. In Ulster, it was always the sport of unionist privilege and was only ever played seriously by Protestant grammar schools, some of which didn't even have an association football team, as if it would have been "too dirty/common" or something. Foyle & Londonderry College, for example, had rugby, cricket and hockey teams but no football team. Only in the last few years has association football been played in the school. Although pupils from Catholic and nationalist backgrounds do attend in the minority, the notion of Gaelic football being played there would be a pipe-dream. Rugby is shaking off that elitist image now, but for that combination of factors, I just find it hard to call it "my sport", like I do with football. It doesn't remotely stir the same same sort of passions in me.

Football is the truly global sport, which is why, historically, Irish people from all classes, both north and south, have been comfortable affiliating with it. Because it has been a truly global sport for so long, it hasn't had that "British/foreign/garrison/elitist game" stigma to contend with, or at least not in recent times with the possible exception of some ultra-insular GAA folk.

I appreciate the whole privileged and "superior" social scene thing is not necessarily intrinsic to the game, as Stutts says - isn't it considered a sport for all classes and sections of society in Wales (and in Limerick too?)? - but it is something I find somewhat repellent and almost impossible to overlook as it's so consuming and prevalent. I'd feel uncomfortable being completely associated with it as it's just not really "me" or "my thing". Maybe that says more about me than those who follow the game though! I know Stutts refers to possible bitterness, but is it bitterness? Or is it just that it has never really been part of my upbringing/culture so the whole social side of it feels a bit alien to me?

When I see the disproportionate level of celebratory coverage dedicated to it in the Irish media compared to the much more popular and accessible football, maybe that's bitterness I'm feeling then! :p


Jeez Danny, where do you find the time to dwell on sport in such a detailed and reflective manner! :D Beating England still remains a pleasure, whatever the sport.

[DeLorean]

Was a mix of both when I was in school, but it was drilled into you that silence is more intimidating than booing. It's different when you're at home.

How is it different when you're at home? Are you saying that Sexton could be intimidated by silence at Twickenham but not at Lansdowne?

[tetsujin1979]

Jeez Danny, where do you find the time to dwell on sport in such a detailed and reflective manner! :D Beating England still remains a pleasure, whatever the sport.
OT but one of my favourite posts from a football forum was from before Euro 2000. Germany were looking to play England-type teams before playing them in the group stages, so I asked would anyone mind losing that game, if it meant England lost in the tournament. One of the replies was "I would pull my eyeballs out with a blunt spoon if it meant that England would lose at tiddleywinks"!

[Charlie Darwin]

How is it different when you're at home? Are you saying that Sexton could be intimidated by silence at Twickenham but not at Lansdowne?
Well they're not silent at Twickenham, but standing in unfamiliar surroundings full of opposition fans and 80,000 eyes... yeah it would be more intimidating than familiar silence from your own fans in your own stadium. Sexton himself even said that he feels more comfortable being booed since going to France. Everybody boos except us and occasionally some English sides - in 80% of cases the kicker gets booed wherever he plays.

[osarusan]

In Limerick you get people doing the "shhhhhhhhh" thing before a place kick even though they're in a pub miles away from the ground.

Laughable really.

[DeLorean]

Well they're not silent at Twickenham, but standing in unfamiliar surroundings full of opposition fans and 80,000 eyes... yeah it would be more intimidating than familiar silence from your own fans in your own stadium. Sexton himself even said that he feels more comfortable being booed since going to France. Everybody boos except us and occasionally some English sides - in 80% of cases the kicker gets booed wherever he plays.

Yeah I know it's more an Irish thing but I still thought it was more of a mark of respect for the kicker, even if it has the opposite effect.