Rugby now more popular than football AND GAA?!

[Crosby87]

Back to the important stuff - hurling is wildly overrated.

Ah you've never had a bad meal? It can really be helpful.

[SkStu]

Back to the important stuff - hurling is wildly overrated.

I think you are wildly overrated.

[ontheotherhand]

I think you are wildly overrated.

Where? I need a lift.

[ontheotherhand]

Incorrect. Prob the most difficult field game to play in the world

It's difficult to solve a Rubik's cube. Doesn't make it enjoyable to watch even though a certain type of person seems to enjoy it.

'

[Fixer82]

It's difficult to solve a Rubik's cube. Doesn't make it enjoyable to watch even though a certain type of person seems to enjoy it.

'

Yep. Perfect analogy

[tetsujin1979]

I practised with a Rubik's cube a bit during lockdown
Can solve it in under two minutes now
The documentary on Netflix is pretty good too

[ontheotherhand]

I practised with a Rubik's cube a bit during lockdown
Can solve it in under two minutes now
The documentary on Netflix is pretty good too

Like I said tets....a certain type....the same type that would be a fan of online forums etc. Strange bunch.

[Stuttgart88]

I practised with a Rubik's cube a bit during lockdown
Can solve it in under two minutes now
The documentary on Netflix is pretty good tooI did it in under a minute around 1980 I think. I entered the Evening Herald championships.

[ontheotherhand]

I did it in under a minute around 1980 I think. I entered the Evening Herald championships.

THE 1980 Evening Herald Rubik's Cube Championships?! The Rumble of Fumble? The Click Heard Round the World?

[Crosby87]

I did it in under a minute around 1980 I think. I entered the Evening Herald championships.

In your autobiography you write you were in a Turkish prison in 1980. ?

[John83]

In your autobiography you write you were in a Turkish prison in 1980. ?
I guess he got a lot of practice in while waiting for the opportune moment to break out.

[SkStu]

As exciting as it is to watch Ireland have a chance for a big moment in an international tournament and as great a game as rugby is to watch in my opinion, the World Cup is a really sh!t tournament in all honesty. The knock out rounds will be mostly good fare but the group stages are a bit of a pox. So many nothing games.

[tetsujin1979]

The tournament's been running for five weeks now and the group stages are only just ending.
I know it's because of tv audiences, and players can't play more than one game in five days, but still.

[Diggs246]

I honestly think we are going to win this world cup and it will be our country's Greatest ever sporting achievement.

[Razors left peg]

As exciting as it is to watch Ireland have a chance for a big moment in an international tournament and as great a game as rugby is to watch in my opinion, the World Cup is a really sh!t tournament in all honesty. The knock out rounds will be mostly good fare but the group stages are a bit of a pox. So many nothing games.

It's a bit like Champions League, the odd exciting group game only gets good in knockout stages

[SkStu]

Definitely. A once great competition that has lost a lot of its luster in the chase for money!

For all my earlier ranting, this Fiji Portugal game has been great!!

[Razors left peg]

Portugal have been great all tournament, delighted they got a result they deserved. Shows that if world rugby is serious about growing the game there are possibilities out there

[tommy_c12000]

Great ending to that game, there must be wild celebrations in your household!

[Razors left peg]

Great ending to that game, there must be wild celebrations in your household!
It was brilliant Tommy, few tears flowing by herself at the end

[nr637]

When will the Rugby boys realise they will have to have a Shield competition in World Rugby!

The current World Cup is fooling nobody, even rugby fans. Some of the results are quiet embarrassing too be honest, NZ 73 V Uruguay 0, France 60 v Italy 3, Scotland 84 v Romania 0 and so on.........!

I know the argument of fewer countries in the world play the game, but............?

There are unfortunately only about 8 or 9 countries that can play the game at a top level and from these maybe 3 are in the elite category.

That's why the second and third class countries should have a 2nd competition to compete in and give them some hope!

And the Rugby Officials want a 24 team World Cup next time! What will results be then New Zealand 200 v Portugal 0 !

[SkStu]

Thats actually a decent idea that had never crossed my mind but you could also make it part of the World Cup itself. The fourth and fifth placed teams could go through to a knock out competition with the winner to play the winner of a knock out competition for the third placed teams...

[Stuttgart88]

Gibraltar v Stephen Kenny's Ireland 2 days after Ireland v NZ in a WC QF...

It might be the death of Irish football forever!

[Stuttgart88]

Thats actually a decent idea that had never crossed my mind but you could also make it part of the World Cup itself. The fourth and fifth placed teams could go through to a knock out competition with the winner to play the winner of a knock out competition for the third placed teams...https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/04/world-rugby-to-reject-plate-competition-for-emerging-nations-at-world-cups

[Razors left peg]

When will the Rugby boys realise they will have to have a Shield competition in World Rugby!

The current World Cup is fooling nobody, even rugby fans. Some of the results are quiet embarrassing too be honest, NZ 73 V Uruguay 0, France 60 v Italy 3, Scotland 84 v Romania 0 and so on.........!

I know the argument of fewer countries in the world play the game, but............?

There are unfortunately only about 8 or 9 countries that can play the game at a top level and from these maybe 3 are in the elite category.

That's why the second and third class countries should have a 2nd competition to compete in and give them some hope!

And the Rugby Officials want a 24 team World Cup next time! What will results be then New Zealand 200 v Portugal 0 !

The 2nd tier competition is a good idea, but we wont have any Portugal rugby slander around here!!!

You picked a bad example though, Im assuming you meant by expanding the tournament you'll have teams that didnt even qualify for this tournament, NZ vs Spain might have been a better example.

I agree that there are too many one sided games in this tournament but seeing what Portugal did does give a little hope for the expansion of the game. If you go back to the 1995 WC New Zealand beat Japan 145-17. Many then would be questioning why Japan are there, but they have managed to grow the game very well since. It is annoying though that out side of the 6 Nations and the Rugby Championship theres not much of an outlet for other nations in the intervening years of the World Cup.

Japan, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, Georgia, Portugal, Uruguay, Namibia etc will only be seen, outside of the rugby diehards, in the odd November friendly or something between now and the next WC. There has to be a better way

[SkStu]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/04/world-rugby-to-reject-plate-competition-for-emerging-nations-at-world-cups

But they haven’t heard my idea yet!!

[Stuttgart88]

Several years ago (2014 I think), a couple of years after after I had finished studying sports management at Birkbeck Uni in London I gave a lecture warning of future financial meltdown in English rugby and how rugby’s global institutional framework wasn’t robust enough to cope with financial growth in the game amidst threats from English clubs to break away from the Heineken Cup. Jeff Probyn and Hugh Godwin (Independent on Sunday rugby correspondent) were panellists in a panel discussion we had afterwards).

I argued that Europe needed a NFL style European league with strict financial supervision and revenue sharing AND a downstream tax to smaller countries to keep all parties happy. I said that rugby didn’t have the 100+ years of professional club structures that formed football’s traditions and structures and that by and large, I feel should be kept. I argued that rugby needed a strong World Rugby which delegated regional organisation to organisations like Rugby Europe (then FIRA-AER) the same way as we have FIFA and UEFA etc. Imho World Rugby is asleep at the wheel and letting private equity (CVC and others) run all over the game, bringing South African rugby into Europe etc.

I then compared FIRA-AER to UEFA. Whatever about personalities, I think UEFA is largely a good organisation. It organises and regulates football and redistributes income downwards. It (just about) prevents the elite clubs from running the game solely for their own benefit, though that job is becoming harder. It has engaged the EU and largely has its support in running what in any other industry would be deemed a cartel. Both UEFA and Rugby Europe have a key objective “to promote and safeguard the game…” as you’d expect.

From Rugby Europe’s bylaws:

https://www.rugbyeurope.eu/media/ezndj0u0/rugby-europe-bylaws-veng-2022.pdf


2.4.1. Rugby Europe’s mission is to administer, manage, promote and develop the Game in Europe and in certain countries outside Europe that are connected to this Regional Association by a World Rugby decision, but without intervening in the domestic affairs of its Members save where Rugby Europe is requested to do so either by World Rugby or by the concerned Member.

So very much like UEFA and pretty much any national or continental sports federation.

But look at article 2.9 of Rugby Europe’s statutes:

2.9. Recognition of the 6 Nations
Rugby Europe recognizes the existence of the sporting, commercial and professional structures put in place by FFR (French Rugby Federation), FIR (Italian Rugby Federation), IRFU (Irish Rugby Football Union), RFU (Rugby Football Union), SRU (Scottish Rugby Union) and WRU (Welsh Rugby Union), generally known as the “Six Nations”. Rugby Europe recognizes the right of these Unions, whether individually or collectively, to operate and commercialize competitions, tournaments, and other matches between their representatives’ national or Club teams. Consequently, Rugby Europe shall have no responsibility or jurisdiction over the competitions, tournaments or matches organized by these bodies. Rugby Europe will preserve, maintain respect, and develop its relations with these structures in a spirit of cooperation.

So basically the 6N can organise themselves and their own competitions, decide who they play and keep all the money for themselves!

As Michael Aylwin wrote in Unholy Union (http://guardianbookshop.com/unholy-union-9781472130693) the 6 Nations can do what it wants, it only does what’s in its own interests and “it’s a mean motherfupper”. Great book by the way. I read it in 2-3 sittings.

Don’t expect much generosity towards the Tier 2 nations after the warm glow of the RWC fades.

[Fixer82]

The 6 rich rugby nations can basically buy whatever player they want for their international team by giving them a contract. No matter where in the world they're from. The rich rugby nations will only get richer. It's an absolute joke and totally makes a farce of the 'international' but of 'international rugby'.

As much as I admire Aki, Gibson-Park and Lowe (and CJ Stander before them), the truth is, if they were signed by Glasgow they'd be playing for Scotland in this World Cup.

The likes of Portugal, Romania, Georgia etc will never be able to compete

[Diggs246]

When it was a 3 year residency rule to qualify for the nation team that was ridiculous

But it's 5 years now just like football Deco hadn't a drop of Portuguese blood and Costa hadn't any Spanish in him.

Were you are right is world rugby are ****s two tier 2 nations. No financing no proper fixture schedule etc

[Stuttgart88]

I think we’ve taken advantage of our small size to very good effect.

France and England have large dispersed rugby club populations
=>following a model similar to football’s kind of makes sense (national leagues, professional clubs representing towns or cities, national TV deals)

Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy could never follow such a model and compete in the H-Cup
• Our clubs are too small and local populations are too small
• Our domestic TV audiences are too small
=>Solution is to have regional representative teams
• Cross border leagues
• Cross border TV income

Within the structure we adopted we became quite ruthless
• Leinster clearly top dog and IRFU focuses most resources here
• Iron grip on retaining best players domestically and offers central contracts
=> our ”clubs” remain solvent
• We brought in SA teams, and TV money (and CVC’s PE money)

England copied the EPL’s model too closely
• Spiv owners
• Lack of financial control
• Lack of central contracts for better players
• Clubs insolvent
• Union itself badly run, and barely solvent

I'm not sure about France’s solvency position!

Is the above a fair synopsis?

What model could England adopt?
• Clubs as they are (rather than regions)
• No promotion & relegation
• Central contracts for top [40] players to alleviate burden on clubs
• Tighter financial control
• Bring in Welsh & other clubs?

For me our biggest advantage is we are guaranteed major TV money from 3 competitions: 6N, H-Cup URC which we use in an almost communist style model of centralised control.

I'm almost surprised that France and England agree to try to compete with us on this basis in the H-Cup. I also wonder about the enforceability under EU law of the policy that stops players moving abroad.

[tetsujin1979]

Players aren't really stopped from playing abroad, they're just heavily disincentivised to do so. It'll basically mean the end of your international career.
Zebo didn't get a look in when he was at Racing, and we really needed a pacy full back. Madigan was seen as the long term replacement for Sexton until he returned from France*, so he had to go to Bordeaux for gametime. JJ Hanrahan was likewise marked as a long term prospect at ten, I don't think he earned a cap during his time at Northampton - although he was injured a lot while he was there.
Sexton is the exception to the rule, he was still a team regular during his time at Racing
Incidentally, Wales have recently reduced the cap limit on players who want to move abroad, I think it's a 25 cap minimum, while playing in Wales, if you want to continue your international career while abroad

* my own hot take on Sexton's return was that it was bad in the long term for rugby, it meant Madigan spent a year of his career sitting on the bench and he's never returned to the same heights. On the other hand, Sexton is about to captain his country in the World Cup quarter final

[Stuttgart88]

Players aren't really stopped from playing abroad, they're just heavily disincentivised to do so. It'll basically mean the end of your international career. But given that that's the pinnacle of your sport and presents additional financial opportunity, that's pretty much the same as being prevented from moving abroad!


my own hot take on Sexton's return was that it was bad in the long term for rugby, it meant Madigan spent a year of his career sitting on the bench and he's never returned to the same heights. On the other hand, Sexton is about to captain his country in the World Cup quarter finalI don't agree. I've never bought into that "building for the future" argument. If you have a world class talent you pick him! You don't drop Luca Modric in favour of a 20-something year old who needs to develop. As you say we have a WC QF at the weekend. It'd be a disaster if Sexton was unavailable.

[tetsujin1979]

I don't agree. I've never bought into that "building for the future" argument. If you have a world class talent you pick him! You don't drop Luca Modric in favour of a 20-something year old who needs to develop. As you say we have a WC QF at the weekend. It'd be a disaster if Sexton was unavailable.

it's Sexton coming back that was bad, not Madigan getting dropped after he came back. If Sexton stayed where he was, he would have to be continued to be picked for Ireland, and Madigan would have developed his game further over those 12 months. We still don't really have a reliable backup for Sexton.

[Fixer82]

The IRFU showed their hypocrisy by picking Sexton while he was abroad.

They stubbornly refused to pick Trevor Brennan while he was winning European Cups at Toulouse and Zebo when we could have really used him.
Zebo made a financial decision for his family. Couldn't begrudge him that.

[elatedscum]

The IRFU showed their hypocrisy by picking Sexton while he was abroad.

They stubbornly refused to pick Trevor Brennan while he was winning European Cups at Toulouse and Zebo when we could have really used him.
Zebo made a financial decision for his family. Couldn't begrudge him that.

Zebo also spoke french, his father was Martinique-French, half of his family lives in france (Paris and Toulouse) and he'd always wanted to play there at some point in his career. Thought it was particularly **** from the IRFU in that context

[Razors left peg]

Personally I think the IRFU have every right to do their best to keep players in Ireland. Their priority is the International teams and quite often players are not looked after at English and French clubs the way they would be in Ireland from a rest and time management point of view. Players might be able to extend their career a bit by staying in Ireland and not having the work load at other clubs and that could make up for a bit of the financial gain for going abroad. Zebo is only 33, could he be in better shape and still be playing for Ireland at this World Cup had he not gone to France? If he was still playing for Ireland for last few years he'd probably be on a lot more money than he was just playing for Munster.

It might be hypocritical to have picked Sexton when he went over to France when Zebo wasnt picked. But the IRFU made a business decision that Zebo could be replaced while Sexton couldnt be, turns out they were right. This is high level professional sport, they dont care, and shouldnt care, about hurting peoples feelings.

By forcing/incentivizing these players to stay in Ireland they have been successful in European Competitions with all 4 provinces. The interest levels in the game has grown enormously over the years, and a lot of that is to with fans being able to see their top end players at home, at club level, winning trophies. Could you imagine a scenario where football fans were able to go see Evan Ferguson competing in the Champions League for Bohs because he was given as good if not better coaching than he would abroad while also making similar money. It sounds far fetched, but thats exactly what the IRFU can offer.

Ive said before that I'd love to see Irish football go to a fully centralized system with fewer clubs in a well financed professional division. It would mean stepping on a lot of toes to get there but I think there are too many entrenched in their ways for us ever to get to a point where the LOI is a realistic option for our senior international players.

[tetsujin1979]

The IRFU showed their hypocrisy by picking Sexton while he was abroad.

They stubbornly refused to pick Trevor Brennan while he was winning European Cups at Toulouse and Zebo when we could have really used him.
Zebo made a financial decision for his family. Couldn't begrudge him that.
Brennan's son Daniel is a prop with Brive in the French Top 14(the second division), played for France in the U20 Six Nations, and won the U20 World Cup.

[gastric]

The IRFU showed their hypocrisy by picking Sexton while he was abroad.

They stubbornly refused to pick Trevor Brennan while he was winning European Cups at Toulouse and Zebo when we could have really used him.
Zebo made a financial decision for his family. Couldn't begrudge him that.

Hypocrisy or pragmatism?

[Stuttgart88]

Keith Andrews discusses his "work experience" with the IRFU.

Full article here: https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/2023/10/11/hes-an-outstanding-man-keith-andrews-praises-andy-farrell-after-spending-time-in-irish-rugby-camp/

But this bit jumps out (emphasis mine):

“I’ve spent time with the IRFU and what they have done in terms of development of the provinces and schools is obviously very impressive,” said Andrews ahead of Friday’s European Championships qualifier against Greece at the Aviva Stadium.


“There are elements where we need to introduce that into our schools and be a bit more strategic around it. We have to align everybody at grassroots, which is very, very difficult in this country, and League of Ireland, and us.

“To bring that all in a straight line of where we want to go, which is ultimately to create the best possible players we can, to give them the game time, to give them the infrastructure, to give them the expertise of all the coaches that we are trying to develop, I think it all needs to come together. But what the rugby has produced over a sustained period of time and with the provinces in particular is very impressive.”


The FAI's failure to control the factions and vested interests in our schools game over the decades has had a disastrous effect. I don't really understand the politics of it but anyone I know close to the ground says the competing schoolboy factions are preventing progress. And wasn't there a massive debacle recently over school girls' clubs moving en masse from one league to another just before the start of the season?

[NeverFeltBetter]

Dreadful defeat last night will have knocked the stuffing out of some of the rugby element insisting that sorry is the biggest in the country. Watching it struck me that the team need to either get in a decent sports psychologist or replace the one they have, a lot of it was purely mental frailty.

[Calcio Jack]

Dreadful defeat last night will have knocked the stuffing out of some of the rugby element insisting that sorry is the biggest in the country. Watching it struck me that the team need to either get in a decent sports psychologist or replace the one they have, a lot of it was purely mental frailty.

Don’t agree that it had anything to do with mental frailty rather we were beaten by a better team on the night ( and with a bit of luck could easily of won) we were behind throughout the game but each time kept coming back and that actually demonstrated our mental toughness rather than fragility - rugby sadly in comparison to football in Ireland is in a great place at both club ( provinces) and international level with fantastic structures in place and will continue to kick on at all levels.

[Dermobohs]

It is still a truth that Ireland had an extra player on the pitch for a quarter or the game and still couldn’t do it. Scrum and line out were a good way second best and Father Time has caught sexton. Luck was a factor in beating SA and the bald fact is Ireland still haven’t won a knockout game.

[Calcio Jack]

It is still a truth that Ireland had an extra player on the pitch for a quarter or the game and still couldn’t do it. Scrum and line out were a good way second best and Father Time has caught sexton. Luck was a factor in beating SA and the bald fact is Ireland still haven’t won a knockout game.

What you say is 100% correct ( aside from Sexton comment as he’s been arguably the best fly half so far in the tournament) - I’m just making the point that the team last night were anything but fragile

[Dermobohs]

Yes sextons been brilliant for us but he was out on his feet in the last 15 , time waits for no man. All blacks defence ultimately won out in the end, Ireland went thru what, 25/30 phases absolutely relentless pressure and they not only defended it they kept Ireland outside the 22 for the most part, brilliant to watch.
I still feel rugby fans and press here got carried away , we were fortunate that SA mislaid their kicking boots and a couple of their forwards dropped it at key times.
We’re along with France the best in the northern hemisphere atm but World Cup knockout is where the name is carved in stone.
Ireland ain’t there yet.

[joey B]

It is still a truth that Ireland had an extra player on the pitch for a quarter or the game and still couldn’t do it. Scrum and line out were a good way second best and Father Time has caught sexton. Luck was a factor in beating SA and the bald fact is Ireland still haven’t won a knockout game.

Fairly insane that they’ve never won a knockout game at the World Cup,when you put it like that it’s nearly mental block territory….

[brine3]

Fairly insane that they’ve never won a knockout game at the World Cup,when you put it like that it’s nearly mental block territory….

8 quarterfinal appearances and 8 quarterfinal losses.

Fairly impressive. Maybe they'll go for the ten.

[EalingGreen]

When will the Rugby boys realise they will have to have a Shield competition in World Rugby!
As well as the other arguments which have been made here and elsewhere against such a scheme, there is one further point which mitigates against it.

First, the players/coaches/attendants/administrators involved with such teams are invariably part-time, or even amateur. How can they afford the time and money to spend 6 or 7 weeks on the other side of the world, even on a 4 yearly basis? And Shield games would end up being played in empty stadia around the host nation, with virtually no TV/Media/Sponsor interest or funding, and consequently lose bundles.

Of course, you might say that the RWC might subsidise them, but the competition doesn't make that much money, all of which (and more) is needed to prop up the professional game in the existing top few nations.



... the second and third class countries should have a 2nd competition to compete in and give them some hope!And in practical terms, what "hope" would that give them?

So Portugal play out a tight-fought 21 to 20 victory over Georgia in the Shield Final and then what? You can guarantee that the next time they face even a half-decent Wales or Argentina, they'll still get humped. And that's before taking on NZ, SA or Ireland etc :eek:

In other words, a few Shield games every four years will have little merit in themselves, nor will they do anything for the overall development of the game back in the countries themselves, the problems for which go far beyond the lack of eg a competition like a subsidiary Shield held alongside a RWC Finals tournament.


And the Rugby Officials want a 24 team World Cup next time! What will results be then New Zealand 200 v Portugal 0 !Agree that that would be madness, serving only to dilute the overall standard of the tournament, while making ever greater demands on the interest, finances and commitment of even die-hard rugby fans.

What rugby's top bods don't appreciate, or more likely won't acknowledge, is for all that they trumpet the success of the game at a tournament like this - and it does have many things going for it - the fact remains that outisde of a few tiny Pacific islands, rugby is only the National Sport in one country on earth, and that with a population of only 5.25m (NZ, of course).

And even that needn't have been a problem, so long as it remained amateur, or at least semi-pro. But when they sought to make the game fully-pro (to keep up with the Soccer-Jones?), fact is, it's was always going to be a huge ask. In fact, experience has shown that the only way this can possibly be done is by concentrating the game's resources in a bare handful of countries and accepting that there simply isn't enough to go around to "widen the franchise" (yuk).

Otherwise, if you are going to try to expand the game from its traditional heartlands by eg 24 team RWC, then the only way this could be done would bw by a radical (Socialist? ;)) redistribution of wealth amongst everyone, and the abandonment of the fully professional dream.

And that ain't gonna happen.

Ever.

[Stuttgart88]

Ive said before that I'd love to see Irish football go to a fully centralized system with fewer clubs in a well financed professional division. It would mean stepping on a lot of toes to get there but I think there are too many entrenched in their ways for us ever to get to a point where the LOI is a realistic option for our senior international players.
How many clubs? 10 is pretty few already.

Is fully centralised even legal under UEFA structures?


rugby sadly in comparison to football in Ireland is in a great place at both club ( provinces) and international level with fantastic structures in place and will continue to kick on at all levels.100% true that IRFU is in a better place than the FAI (except maybe in treatment of women where IRFU and FAI both failed abjectly, and where maybe Irish international football is currently in a better place than rugby) but equally true is that on so many levels comparisons are futile.

- IRFU has a guaranteed place in the annual European Championships
- IRFU has a virtually guaranteed place at the World Cup
- Irish provinces are able to play x-border league and cup competitions (URC is among the biggest club competitions in the world, H-Cup arguably the biggest)
- The revenues from all of the above mean IRFU is as well funded as any organisation in global rugby
- IRFU can attract high quality players under residency rules (harder now)
- Private schools do a meaningful part of the hard work at grassroots level

Of course, Wales, Scotland and Australia follow similar models and are in poor shape so Ireland’s success isn’t automatic but it has a lot of huge structural advantages over the FAI to begin with.

[EalingGreen]

How many clubs? 10 is pretty few already.

Is fully centralised even legal under UEFA structures?
If this wiki page is accurate/up-to-date, only two countries in UEFA currently have an 8 team top flight, Andorra and Moldova. While there are 10 other countries which have 10 teams, all of them pretty minor, bar Croatia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_top-division_football_clubs_in_UEFA_countries


100% true that IRFU is in a better place than the FAI (except maybe in treatment of women where IRFU and FAI both failed abjectly, and where maybe Irish international football is currently in a better place than rugby) but equally true is that on so many levels comparisons are futile.

- IRFU has a guaranteed place in the annual European Championships
- IRFU has a virtually guaranteed place at the World Cup
- Irish provinces are able to play x-border league and cup competitions (URC is among the biggest club competitions in the world, H-Cup arguably the biggest)
- The revenues from all of the above mean IRFU is as well funded as any organisation in global rugby
- IRFU can attract high quality players under residency rules (harder now)
- Private schools do a meaningful part of the hard work at grassroots level

Of course, Wales, Scotland and Australia follow similar models and are in poor shape so Ireland’s success isn’t automatic but it has a lot of huge structural advantages over the FAI to begin with.Professional rugby union is a bit of a basket-case, financially speaking, since clubs generally cannot generate enough revenue to maintain the large squads and facilities needed etc. (I say "generally", since France seems to making a fist of it due to somewhat unique circumstances)

As a result, clubs/leagues depend on hand-outs from their respective Unions, which is where the real money - crowds, TV, sponsors etc - lies. But even this is nowhere near enough to elevate all the top clubs existing before professionalism was introduced - England have had a go, but is floundering badly.

Instead the Unions had to move away from clubs and create an (appropriately few) number of regional clubs to find, develop and promote players up to the National Teams. In Wales and Scotland this has been a complete disaster, since it effectively led to their throwing the new regional "baby" out with the club "bathwater". That is, when existing clubs were starved of funding, they went into decline, without the new regions really catching on in their place.

Ireland, however, got lucky, since it already happened by chance to have a 4 team regional set-up it could build upon, the Provinces. But while this has proven to be extremely successful for those teams, even including Connacht, previously a rugby backwater, the next level down has been a completely different story. That is, while all-Ireland club leagues still exist, the gap between their standards, and those of the Provincial teams, never mind the international team, is huge, and growing ever wider. This has resulted eg at clubs which formerly used to field 6 or 8 adult teams every weekend, at all levels including veterans etc, these days struggling to field four teams, even three. (There is much more womens/girls rugby, tbf)

As a result, Ireland increasingly draws its players from a relatively tiny number of (mostly) fee-paying schools, as you say, who can afford to provide specialised, professional coaching, along with the costly facilities and infrastructure which pro rugby demands these days. And from there the best of them usually go not to their local club, but into the Academy of their Province, or to a University set-up, or even abroad for a bit. And its from theses bases that they hope to develop to international level.

As a result, rugby at top level in Ireland is far less widespread and accessible than it used to be, even if it isn't at the stage eg of American Football, which is concentrated on Schools, to Colleges, to Professional Franchises, with afaik very little played at local club level.

Which is all very well if you're a bar-stooler of a "fan", but I suspect that for many true rugby fans of the old school, the move to professional rugby has brought with it many drawbacks as well as many benefits.

And while it is not for me to say what football in ROI should do, I would be very disappointed if football in NI came to be similarly concentrated ever more around a handful of professional clubs, to the overall detriment of all the other clubs up and down the pyramid, in all parts of NI.

[samhaydenjr]

Am I the only person who watched the game who believed that the final pass for the first New Zealand try was blatantly forward? I was stunned that it didn't go to the TMO, that the Irish players didn't protest or that it didn't come up in any of the reports on the game. Final pass for the second one was iffy also, although marginally so

[seanfhear]

Am I the only person who watched the game who believed that the final pass for the first New Zealand try was blatantly forward? I was stunned that it didn't go to the TMO, that the Irish players didn't protest or that it didn't come up in any of the reports on the game. Final pass for the second one was iffy also, although marginally so
I don't know ~ Sometimes the TV pictures can give false impressions.