Rugby now more popular than football AND GAA?!

[Wolfman]

What,Tets?

[Stuttgart88]

No, Hook :)

Eamonn Sweeney saying today that rugby can also be seen as a team for the whole country now, a bit of a departure from his usual stance?

[paul_oshea]

AUDIO: Ewan MacKenna On Why The Irish Media Is Biased Towards Rugby | Balls.ie - http://www.balls.ie/football/audio-ewan-mackenna-on-why-the-irish-media-is-biased-towards-rugby/313185

[paul_oshea]

Interesting stuff here, something i always felt played a major part:

It seems as a sporting nation we're less inclined to produce that kind of football or rugby or GAA. Sometimes I honestly just blame the weather.

The expressive types aren't built for muddy pitches in November. The wind and rain inform so many aspects of our culture; sport clearly isn't immune. You take that muddy pitch, and throw in the inevitable pressures on developing players to win the schools cup or county final and suddenly 'expressing yourself' with any kind of freedom is less of a priority.

[OwlsFan]

Interesting about the weather. Might explain why the English game is similarly inflicted.

[tetsujin1979]

I made this point elsewhere, just reposting here. While sports journalists will always criticise the national side after a loss in their sport (Fanning/McDonnell on football, Thornley on rugby, etc), it's the treatment of footballers on the front page of the paper that exposes the bias in my opinion.
A footballer will make it on the front page for getting behind the wheel of a car after having a drink, losing a bundle on a horse, or spending the night with a woman who isn't their partner. For whatever reason, this rarely happens for athletes in other codes, not just GAA and rugby, both of which have players with problems with alcohol, gambling and fidelity. More than one person that I know has been convinced that because Ashley Cole and John Terry are utter scumbags, that this must mean all footballers are.

[Stuttgart88]

Interesting about the weather. Might explain why the English game is similarly inflicted.
And why New Zealand is so rubbish at rugby :)

I'll listen to Ewan McKenna later. Dion Fanning was on Second Captains talking about the difference in media treatment too.

I'm kind of enjoying the outrage over Joubert. There's always outrage at a refs decision, rugby World Cup or footy World Cup. TMO or no TMO.*

I love the assumption that the ref would have been harangued too, if only to show that just as refs are only human, it's only human to lose your cool for a bit too if the ref has cost you the game.

* was there not a blatant late tackle on a Scots player only moments earlier? That could face gone to TMO.

[DeLorean]

Not to go all Roy Keane on it but all Scotland had to do was secure their own line-out. They went for the riskier approach of throwing it to the back and messed it up. Even if the referee had made the correct call, a scrum to Australia, chances are they would have worked a score or penalty anyway. It had an air of inevitability about it I think. Obviously I can still understand their frustrations but that's sport I'm afraid, as we know only too well.

[geysir]

And the Scots lost their chance for Euro qualification at the death as well.

Next time you greet a Scot, say 'how's the curling?'

[DannyInvincible]

Interesting stuff here, something i always felt played a major part:

It seems as a sporting nation we're less inclined to produce that kind of football or rugby or GAA. Sometimes I honestly just blame the weather.

The expressive types aren't built for muddy pitches in November. The wind and rain inform so many aspects of our culture; sport clearly isn't immune. You take that muddy pitch, and throw in the inevitable pressures on developing players to win the schools cup or county final and suddenly 'expressing yourself' with any kind of freedom is less of a priority.

There's always indoor. Isn't that what they've done in Iceland and with great results?

Was away in Amsterdam for a few days last week and weekend and not really had chance to catch up on forum since I got back, but here's something I wrote in the meantime regarding Irish rugby's claim of inclusiveness after Eamonn Sweeney lauded the game as being "everyone's game" the other week: https://danieldcollins.wordpress.com/2015/10/21/is-irish-rugby-truly-the-beacon-of-inclusiveness-it-is-purported-to-be/

Had most of it written before I went away but only got round to finishing it and publishing it yesterday. I covered Ewan MacKenna's arguments, as well as the criticisms of others, but also examined whether the IRFU are actually truly inclusive of the unionist or Ulster Protestant community in the north too. I personally feel unionists get short-changed in terms of the IRFU's choice of representative symbols. There is certainly no notion of parity of esteem in effect anyway (not that the IRFU are necessarily legally obliged to adhere to it, but just saying).

[OwlsFan]

There's always indoor. Isn't that what they've done in Iceland and with great results?

Was away in Amsterdam for a few days last week and weekend and not really had chance to catch up on forum since I got back, but here's something I wrote in the meantime regarding Irish rugby's claim of inclusiveness after Eamonn Sweeney lauded the game as being "everyone's game" the other week: https://danieldcollins.wordpress.com/2015/10/21/is-irish-rugby-truly-the-beacon-of-inclusiveness-it-is-purported-to-be/

Had most of it written before I went away but only got round to finishing it and publishing it yesterday. I covered Ewan MacKenna's arguments, as well as the criticisms of others, but also examined whether the IRFU are actually truly inclusive of the unionist or Ulster Protestant community in the north too. I personally feel unionists get short-changed in terms of the IRFU's choice of representative symbols. There is certainly no notion of parity of esteem in effect anyway (not that the IRFU are necessarily legally obliged to adhere to it, but just saying).

Is that true about the symbols? Someone told me that at the away games the Ulster and IRFU flags fly together without the Tricolour which would seem odd but that is only hearsay.

[Charlie Darwin]

Is that true about the symbols? Someone told me that at the away games the Ulster and IRFU flags fly together without the Tricolour which would seem odd but that is only hearsay.
Had both for the World Cup alright, not sure about normal away games.

[DannyInvincible]

The tricolour and Ulster provincial flag were used at the Rugby World Cup, which I understand is policy when two poles are available.

https://danieldcollins.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/cpsektlwoaac_jy.jpg

When one pole is available, a single IRFU flag is used.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ad/IRFU_flag.svg/600px-IRFU_flag.svg.png

[MeathDrog]

There's always indoor. Isn't that what they've done in Iceland and with great results?

Was away in Amsterdam for a few days last week and weekend and not really had chance to catch up on forum since I got back, but here's something I wrote in the meantime regarding Irish rugby's claim of inclusiveness after Eamonn Sweeney lauded the game as being "everyone's game" the other week: https://danieldcollins.wordpress.com/2015/10/21/is-irish-rugby-truly-the-beacon-of-inclusiveness-it-is-purported-to-be/

Had most of it written before I went away but only got round to finishing it and publishing it yesterday. I covered Ewan MacKenna's arguments, as well as the criticisms of others, but also examined whether the IRFU are actually truly inclusive of the unionist or Ulster Protestant community in the north too. I personally feel unionists get short-changed in terms of the IRFU's choice of representative symbols. There is certainly no notion of parity of esteem in effect anyway (not that the IRFU are necessarily legally obliged to adhere to it, but just saying).
Excellent read that.

[Real ale Madrid]

If you like soccer get behind the soccer team.
If you like rugby get behind the rugby team.
If you like them both get behind them both.
69 page thread of nonsense.

Rugby media give the team an easy ride alright in comparison to the soccer team - but there has been criticism of the team, the management and the structures - none of it has been personal or hyperbolic - the soccer media should try and replicate that type of criticism not ridicule it.
I swear to God people won't be happy until all sports coverage is red-top,personal, flag bearing nationalistic garbage that permeates English sports coverage.

[MeathDrog]

If you like soccer get behind the soccer team.
If you like rugby get behind the rugby team.
If you like them both get behind them both.
69 page thread of nonsense.

Rugby media give the team an easy ride alright in comparison to the soccer team - but there has been criticism of the team, the management and the structures - none of it has been personal or hyperbolic - the soccer media should try and replicate that type of criticism not ridicule it.
I swear to God people won't be happy until all sports coverage is red-top,personal, flag bearing nationalistic garbage that permeates English sports coverage.

It already does to be fair.

The media's treatment of the rugby team in the world cup was strikingly similar to how the English media treat their soccer team at world cups.

I think people aren't happy because rugby is pedelled to be something that it is not, whereas we are all well are of soccer's failings in this country, but nobody doubts its wider popularity.

[DannyInvincible]

If you like soccer get behind the soccer team.
If you like rugby get behind the rugby team.
If you like them both get behind them both.
69 page thread of nonsense.

Rugby media give the team an easy ride alright in comparison to the soccer team - but there has been criticism of the team, the management and the structures - none of it has been personal or hyperbolic - the soccer media should try and replicate that type of criticism not ridicule it.
I swear to God people won't be happy until all sports coverage is red-top,personal, flag bearing nationalistic garbage that permeates English sports coverage.

I think those making the argument are more accurately saying, "treat all sports fairly", rather than, "pillory rugby too with over-the-top criticism, just like the football players have to endure".

[Gather round]

What the eggchasers need is six flags in one.

Or something.

http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/zz196/BillMcComish/ultonia/us.jpg (http://s827.photobucket.com/user/BillMcComish/media/ultonia/us.jpg.html)

[geysir]

There's always indoor. Isn't that what they've done in Iceland and with great results?

Was away in Amsterdam for a few days last week and weekend and not really had chance to catch up on forum since I got back, but here's something I wrote in the meantime regarding Irish rugby's claim of inclusiveness after Eamonn Sweeney lauded the game as being "everyone's game" the other week: https://danieldcollins.wordpress.com/2015/10/21/is-irish-rugby-truly-the-beacon-of-inclusiveness-it-is-purported-to-be/

Had most of it written before I went away but only got round to finishing it and publishing it yesterday. I covered Ewan MacKenna's arguments, as well as the criticisms of others, but also examined whether the IRFU are actually truly inclusive of the unionist or Ulster Protestant community in the north too. I personally feel unionists get short-changed in terms of the IRFU's choice of representative symbols. There is certainly no notion of parity of esteem in effect anyway (not that the IRFU are necessarily legally obliged to adhere to it, but just saying).
Well done Danny that's a good read.

Within the 4 provinces, Irish rugby also represents a state and a statelet. The statelet has still got the highly disputed, mono ethnic, unionist, GSTQ as it's official anthem.
IMO, Irelands Call is good enough for now for an AI team, it's totally fit for purpose. It's complicated for an association if you think that it should give special individual notice to a singular ethnic portion.
GSTQ still endures in the 6 co, it's a mono ethnic anthem in an almost 50/50 ethnic Unionist/Nationalist statelet. IMO it should be dumped , not used at all and replaced by sounds of silence or when/if something new is agreed upon. Is Ulster Rugby just a unionist ethnic thing, or does Ulster Rugby represent all ethnicities?
Does Irish rugby have especially recognise the british ethnic portion?
By some extension, we have many Travellers in the boxing, perhaps we should throw in "Go Move Shift" into the mix when they represent Ireland?
I think the IRFU have managed the situation well.

[Charlie Darwin]

By some extension, we have many Travellers in the boxing, perhaps we should throw in "Go Move Shift" into the mix when they represent Ireland?
I can't believe you've asked this question and come to any conclusion other than it would be the best idea ever.

[DannyInvincible]

Well done Danny that's a good read.

Within the 4 provinces, Irish rugby also represents a state and a statelet. The statelet has still got the highly disputed, mono ethnic, unionist, GSTQ as it's official anthem.
IMO, Irelands Call is good enough for now for an AI team, it's totally fit for purpose. It's complicated for an association if you think that it should give special individual notice to a singular ethnic portion.
GSTQ still endures in the 6 co, it's a mono ethnic anthem in an almost 50/50 ethnic Unionist/Nationalist statelet. IMO it should be dumped , not used at all and replaced by sounds of silence or when/if something new is agreed upon. Is Ulster Rugby just a unionist ethnic thing, or does Ulster Rugby represent all ethnicities?
Does Irish rugby have especially recognise the british ethnic portion?
By some extension, we have many Travellers in the boxing, perhaps we should throw in "Go Move Shift" into the mix when they represent Ireland?
I think the IRFU have managed the situation well.

Cheers, geysir. Glad you found it worthwhile.

Aye, I mean, I'm not saying it necessarily has to be 'God Save the Queen' specifically that's given recognition; just making the point, rather, that you would have expected there to have been some territory-specific anthem, be it 'GSTQ' or whatever, to be played in the interests of consistency before that game at Ravenhill (rather than it being designated an "away" fixture, so the IRFU could evade the issue), seeing as that's what the IRFU do in Dublin when 'Amhrán na bhFiann' is played. Either they should explicitly and equally recognise both parts of their make-up or they should just play a shared anthem and display unifying symbolism. Recognising symbols that contradict your cultural and political outlook can be difficult, but it's the least we'd expect for ourselves and recognition of our traditions.

I think Ulster Rugby is shedding its unionist image of latter days more and more. Obviously, it is still the traditional sport of middle-class Protestant grammar schools, but more nationalist/Catholic schools in the north are playing rugby too now. As far as I know, the Ulster provincial flag is a more common sight in Ravenhill now than the Ulster Banner, which was previously a popular sight.

More of an English focus to this piece, but an interesting look by Oliver Brown at the hollowness of rugby's haughty claim to commanding a moral high-ground: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/rugby-world-cup/11948996/Rugby-World-Cup-2015-How-once-proud-gentlemens-game-has-become-the-new-football.html

[Stuttgart88]

3 Plymouth Albion (Championship equivalent, professional) rugby players charged with sexual assault last year. Barely any media fuss. London School of Economics rugby club publish highly misogynistic promo material in rag week and get suspended. Durham Uni rugby team suspended for singing songs about rape. Richmond rugby team members run naked on London Underground. And so on. Not to mention how World Rugby institutionally locks out lesser nations.

Great sport, but the idea that it's morally superior especially in this new professional era is daft. That's not to say there aren't areas where I think it can claim some moral superiority, but in its totality, no way. How many kids around the world are saved from drugs and gun crime by rugby, for example?

[Stuttgart88]

3 Plymouth Albion (Championship equivalent, professional) rugby players charged with sexual assault last year. Barely any media fuss. London School of Economics rugby club publish highly misogynistic promo material in rag week and get suspended. Durham Uni rugby team suspended for singing songs about rape. Richmond rugby team members run naked on London Underground. And so on. Not to mention how World Rugby institutionally locks out lesser nations.

Great sport, but the idea that it's morally superior especially in this new professional era is daft. That's not to say there aren't areas where I think it can claim some moral superiority, but in its totality, no way. How many kids around the world are saved from drugs and gun crime by rugby, for example?

[DeLorean]

Why it’s time to put Robbie Keane on a pedestal alongside Brian O’Driscoll and Paul O’Connell (http://irishpost.co.uk/why-its-time-to-put-robbie-keane-on-a-pedestal-alongside-brian-odriscoll-and-paul-oconnell/)

[Stuttgart88]

I wonder how Richard Dunne feels walking back through Dublin airport and seeing photo portraits of Irish people from all walks of life and every sport, except football?

[DeLorean]

He's probably thinking... "I don't have my picture on the wall at Dublin airport, but I do have more money than all of these suckers combined". :)

[Stuttgart88]

Eamon Sweeney today

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/european-championships/martin-oneills-triumph-of-real-substance-34222700.html

"Perhaps that has as much do with the supporters as with the team. I remember writing after the first Germany match that the public was in the mood to fall in love with the national soccer team again. You could sense that the mood had changed. After over a decade of toxic post-Saipan cynicism people were fed up of it. They wanted to get back to the days of giving the team a break and cheering them on wholeheartedly.

Irish football was unlucky to be the whipping boy during two particularly unpleasant periods in our national life. First it was a victim of the bumptious boastful blowhard atmosphere of the Tiger era, getting subjected to ludicrous abuse for our failure to reach for the sky and win the 2002 World Cup. Then it collided with the post-crash, "We're the worst at everything, we're a laughing stock," mood. Rugby and Gaelic games were used as big sticks to beat the game everyone suddenly loved to hate."


That's pretty much how I felt. During the Tiger years we had the temerity not to be brilliant, unlike the rest of our economy. Post-Celtic Tiger there was David Kelly-eque national self-loathing of the team. Now I think the team feels like it has won the public over again.

Of course there was also the post-Saipan civil war, knackers earning lots of money, players not caring (allegedly) and Trap's turgid football added to the mix too. That seems to be behind us, thankfully.

[DeLorean]

I like Sweeney but I'm starting to feel reluctant to praise his pieces, in fear that something else will be produced where he's completely contradicted himself! Seems to happen a bit with him.

[Stuttgart88]

I thought his recent rugby love-in was more a piece of magnanimity rather than contradiction.

[geysir]

Cheers, geysir. Glad you found it worthwhile.

Aye, I mean, I'm not saying it necessarily has to be 'God Save the Queen' specifically that's given recognition; just making the point, rather, that you would have expected there to have been some territory-specific anthem, be it 'GSTQ' or whatever, to be played in the interests of consistency before that game at Ravenhill (rather than it being designated an "away" fixture, so the IRFU could evade the issue), seeing as that's what the IRFU do in Dublin when 'Amhrán na bhFiann' is played. Either they should explicitly and equally recognise both parts of their make-up or they should just play a shared anthem and display unifying symbolism. Recognising symbols that contradict your cultural and political outlook can be difficult, but it's the least we'd expect for ourselves and recognition of our traditions.

I think Ulster Rugby is shedding its unionist image of latter days more and more. Obviously, it is still the traditional sport of middle-class Protestant grammar schools, but more nationalist/Catholic schools in the north are playing rugby too now. As far as I know, the Ulster provincial flag is a more common sight in Ravenhill now than the Ulster Banner, which was previously a popular sight.

More of an English focus to this piece, but an interesting look by Oliver Brown at the hollowness of rugby's haughty claim to commanding a moral high-ground: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/rugby-world-cup/11948996/Rugby-World-Cup-2015-How-once-proud-gentlemens-game-has-become-the-new-football.html

Just because Ireland played that game in another jurisdiction, in NI, doesn't mean the IRFU are in anyway obliged to have that territory specific anthem played.
Ulster Rugby have their home ground in that jurisdiction, but Ulster Rugby represents the 9 counties of Ulster.
If Ulster Rugby was a 6 county specific thing, then there is some argument for playing the mono ethnic GSTQ anthem, like the pigheaded IFA do.
Ulster Rugby is a 9 county, Ulster provincial flag, dual ethnic affair and as we know, GSTQ is not a 9 county anthem. Just because AnbF is played in the south before games doesn't mean there should be a quid pro quo when a game is being played in the jurisdiction of NI . It was straightforward arrogance for the whining UR fans to assume Ulster Rugby was a 6 county unionist entity and GSTQ was the Ulster Rugby anthem. Just because that was the perception of those those morons, was not sufficient grounds for appeasing that bigotry.
One answer is to have just Ireland's Call at all games and play a few bars of AnbF when el president inspects and greets in Dublin.

[DeLorean]

I thought his recent rugby love-in was more a piece of magnanimity rather than contradiction.

Wasn't there a fairly severe Trap u-turn, with the subsequent article being something very similar to the piece on MON above? Think it was pointed out here somewhere.

[Stuttgart88]

I don't remember that.

On balance, I'm prepared to give Sweeney credit. I think he "gets" the sports landscape in Ireland better than most, and isn't afraid to confront some accepted wisdoms. His support of his local LOI side gives him some extra points too :)

[tetsujin1979]

Another point that Sweeney didn't mention was that the rugby teams (national and international) success came around almost annually. The Six Nations and Heineken Cup/Champions Cup provided success after success, whereas when the soccer team failed to qualify, it meant another two years minimum before any success would be recognised on the international stage. In that time, two Six Nations would have passed, and two Champions Cup tournaments featuring at least three provincial sides.
The GAA was a roaring success in the Celtic Tiger, a national spectacle that we all could be (and still should be) proud of. But I always thought it brought out the worst in die hard GAA supporters. Both codes were dominated by a few countries, which is why I lost interested to be honest. I've mentioned it here before that whenever Ireland lost a game, especially around September when the finals were on, you'd see comments like "you'd never see GAA players without passion". Of course, nobody ever mentions the passion of the players when Kilkenny stick 20+ points on Wexford in the opening rounds of the Championship.

Something else to think about is that, following the midweek appointment of Eddie Jones, all the rugby home nations are being managed by southern hemisphere coaches, three from New Zealand and one from Australia, whereas the football teams from the same countries are all now managed by native* managers.

*no idea what the correct/PC term here is!

[Stuttgart88]

I think for all the protestations that rugby and GAA aren't like football, it looks to me that rugby and GAA are trying really hard to be just like football. Rugby seems to be at the stage of its "product life cycle" that cable TV era football was at 10-15 years ago. It's a shame that they aren't learning the lessons, the economic & structural lessons (I'll happily admit that there are good things that football can learn from GAA and rugby, for sake of balance). In TV era football we saw an influx of new very rich and agitative club owners trampling over weak associations, TV money unevenly spread across the major leagues and often within the major leagues, financial pressures on clubs due to increasing wage demands and so on. Football reacted too late to these changes. Rugby is looking at these changes fat in the face, armed with perfect knowledge of what happens in these circumstances, and is choosing to ignore them.

Separately (well, not that separate really) Neil Francis in yesterday's Sindo is convinced that Jonah Lomu's death was creatine-related. One of the striking things of rugby's venture into the TV era / professional era is its lack of regard for player welfare. At some levels rugby is being careful but at elite level the players are being flogged to death and the players' unions barely have a look in in the sport's governance & competition design.

[gastric]

Valid point about the rich owners dominating the game particularly in France and England. Football has a genuine chance to regain the public's interest now as financial constraints are slowly affecting the provinces' chances of success. Irish football's biggest problem now is Delaney doing something stupid and the genuine lack of emerging talent which is a real threat to building a feeling of positivity around the game after the Euros are over. I do take exception to a tool like Francis making claims about Lomu without real evidence to support his claims, he craves attention even if it is negative.

[DeLorean]

I don't remember that.

These are the articles I was talking about. The contradiction, u-turn, whatever you want to call it was actually pointed out by Tets (http://foot.ie/threads/159115-Ireland-V-Estonia-Match-Thread-Playoff-2nd-Leg?p=1555066&viewfull=1#post1555066) after I had posted Sweeney's second piece, which was written just over a year after his first. He does make a slight reference to it himself, but it was very tame considering the dramatic change in mood.

Vendetta is an Italian word - Eamonn Sweeney 17/10/2010 (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/vendetta-is-an-italian-word-26690656.html)

Silencing the chorus of boos - Eamonn Sweeney 20/11/2011 (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/silencing-the-chorus-of-boos-26793918.html)


What's noticeable too is how he felt we had turned a corner when we qualified for Euro 2012. It's very similar to how he seems to view this qualification in terms of the fans perception of the team, even though he's more or less saying the opposite.


To judge by the joyous scenes at the Aviva Stadium on Tuesday night, we have fallen back in love with the team and qualification has drawn a line under the unhappy recent past. It's about time.


This particular European qualification feels very different from the last one. The fervour with which Monday night's result was greeted made it feel as though the fact that Ireland had also made the 2012 Championships had somehow been wiped from the collective memory. It's fair to say that Ireland under O'Neill command a level of public affection that they never did under Trapattoni.

It seems like I'm Sweeney bashing, I'm not really but it's worth noting I think. Sweeney is only human, I'm sure I could be torn apart if somebody had the time and motivation to look through my posts on here from day one. We're all entitled to change our mind or get caught up in the moment. It's tough being a journalist when your views are publically documented and don't really allow for things like a change of heart, hindsight, etc. I enjoy his work overall.

[elroy]

Dont usually buy the rag that is in the Sindo but given the week thats in it, i got it yesterday. I thought this article by Joe Brolly was a good read. Written in the GAA context obviously, but interesting given our recent success. Particularly the points regarding the Olympics in Sydney and London and for all the success that they were, they had little or no impact in participation levels. Research indicates that participation comes from improved facilities, volunteers etc. Something the GAA is a country mile ahead in this country.

I disagree somewhat on the think the 'trickle down' effect as it applies to international football. I think success for the international team is vital for the next generation to get the Ireland bug. I'm not really concerned about the fluctuations of the media regarding the Irish team, more so the children and teenagers of today and they having their own heroes and moments. Packie save in 1990 or Ibaraki 2002 isnt much use to someone born in 2000, but Shane Long V Germany is and hopefully the Euros will be.


http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/joe-brolly-gaas-margaret-thatcher-approach-does-not-encourage-participation-34222670.html

[OwlsFan]

..... and Trap's turgid football added to the mix too. That seems to be behind us, thankfully.

Without wishing to open the Trap thingy, I am not sure that the current brand of football we play is much different to Trap's. Generally it is a long ball to Murphy (lost) or Walters (controlled) and then we try and play from there. We do try and play out a bit more but it generally ends up being passed back to the keeper for the kick up the field. None of this bothers me but I can't let Sweeney's statement go. My two heroes, Giles and Dunphy, have been stating as much the whole campaign. We have Wes now of course who gets on the ball in the last third of the pitch weaving triangles while Trap's attacking options were the two wingers. However, the basic first attacking option remains the long ball, particularly from the keeper.

It doesn't bother me whether the public is in love with the soccer team or not. Sure, it's nice to see a full house at Lansdowne but I know 40% of them are there for the craic and will disappear as soon as the buzz is gone. However, that said, football is the people's game which rugby is not and probably never will be. God knows they used to toast the King at the end of their meetings up to the 1930s. The GAA cannot compete either because it is not an international game and the country does not go wild when Dublin or Kerry win an all Ireland. The individual county does but not the country.

I think we should put this thread to bed. We all follow football. Good luck to the rugby but when the football team is successful it will always be the No. 1 attraction as it is the global game - the people's game.

[DeLorean]

I do think we are 'generally' trying or at least more open to playing better football. MON and Keane repeatedly mention that our ball retention needs to improve, Trap didn't want us to have the ball at all really, certainly not in areas where losing possession could do damage. They encourage being brave and taking chances and selecting the likes of Hoolahan is a fairly radical change. The football generally hasn't been much better overall though I don't think, but there have been signs of improvement, especially the other night. I think the most radical change has not been that we're more expansive, but that we're actually more solid. The extra body in midfield and more emphasis on pressing has made us much more difficult to play against, we're forcing the opposition into more mistakes and protecting our back four a lot better. I'll take that over samba football for now, and forever really. I'd assume our possession stats haven't improved much, or at all, though.

[Mr A]

On the Neil Francis point- Francis has written in the past about doping / supplement abuse in rugby and is one of the few in the sport who actually seems to take it seriously. Rugby has a massive problem, and the more people who start asking questions the better. Maybe Lomu was never on anything and was just unlucky, but I think it's right to ask the question.

[paul_oshea]

WHy does everyone on here who has read the Sunday independent start off with:

"i dont normally buy the sunday independent rag" or something similar :D You shouldn't feel the need to justify yourself.

I like Sweeney, but Delores makes a good point, I think he sees himself as a spokesman for the little common fella, or the outlet for him. So he changes as he interprets what the little maneen in the corner is thinking. Sometimes he probably gets that wrong. Originally he used to just write about what he thought and felt himself, which is when I really did like him - because i related to it.

I took an interesting bit from Dion Fanning, which i think answers Owlsfan - "In some ways, O'Neill's analysis was no different to Trapattoni's but O'Neill's solution was. "We lack certain things," he said last week but his Ireland try to overcome them with daring; Trapattoni's Ireland closed their eyes and hoped the world wouldn't notice." To me and many other's it was always edge of the seat stuff against the top teams, hoping for a 0-0, no football but loads of energy in and around the box, we were limited and by god did we know it and did we play that way. But we weren't that limited. And MON has shown that, he has also looked at ways of overcoming the limitations we do have. Trap just shut up shop and that's the way it was. With Trap against the top teams we always looked like a game away from a good beating, with O'Neill we have generally competed. With Trap against the slightly better teams it was boring, basic, hope we nick a corner or cross or a knock down for Robbie or someones arse and in. We have shown we try to play football against average and slightly better teams under Mon, and more importantly that we will never give up, until the death.

[OwlsFan]

As I said, I don't want to get in to the Trap thing. It's old hat but to quote Dion Fanning against me - hmmmm. I actually stopped buying the Indo because of his ignorant and scurrilous attacks on Irish football supporters in Poland. He only got his job through nepotism.

The Indo was a bit like the Late Late in our house growing up - the weekend for the parents was incomplete without both. It wasn't a bad paper. But the Sunday World came along and the Indo had to dumb down. I get the Sunday Times now although the next one is published by the time I have fought me way through half of it.

[paul_oshea]

It doesn't matter who writes what, if they are making valid points that's all that matters. Don't let your prejudices get in the way of that.

And I agree about the Sunday Times. There really isn't actually any paper properly produced in Ireland would reading on a Sunday to be honest.

[BonnieShels]

It doesn't matter who writes what, if they are making valid points that's all that matters. Don't let your prejudices get in the way of that.

And I agree about the Sunday Times. There really isn't actually any paper properly produced in Ireland would reading on a Sunday to be honest.

The Irish Times at a push if you didn't get around to it on Saturday.

[tetsujin1979]

I think Neil Francis is trying to be complimentary to the football team here: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/neil-francis-move-over-rugby-football-is-the-only-show-in-town-now-34235407.html
But he just can't quite do it!

[DeLorean]

Pointless articles like that really do fuel the divide.

[BonnieShels]

The only divide is among the thick-headed and the media who'll find a reason to whinge about anything or everything.

The soccer team are ****-a-hoop now and the best thing since sliced bread. But that can and will change.

The best thing to happen Irish rugby in the long-term is a defeat against Argentina in the QF. Because it shows that we aren't as good as we think we are and need to up our game and consistently the IRFU have shown that they can do that.

I love my country winning at anything.

[paul_oshea]

"switch voters looking for success - international success."

I know a lot of these people.

[BonnieShels]

As we all do.

Remember all those Lunster fans?

[Fixer82]

I think it's always easy for people to have more of a connect with GAA and Rugby teams because they live in Ireland first and foremost and much more available. I've often seen O'Driscoll, D'arcy or a couple of Dublin players in a pub supping pints with nobody annoying them.

The soccer lads all live abroad and are kind of superstars playing in the biggest (one of) league in the world and whether they like it or not are associated with that crass football culture where players buy big cars with pink tyres or get snooker tables with their names on it (Stephen Ireland on both occasions), sell their wedding photos to OK! Magazine, have thrones at their wedding (Beckhams) have tattoo sleeves, highly-styled haircuts etc.

What I'm trying to say is that a lot of soccer culture is a little bit TOWIE whereas the GAA and rugby lads come across a little bit more Glenroe.