World Ranking

[DannyInvincible]

They dropped a place because the Netherlands climbed 4 places, ending up one place above Croatia.

The Netherlands fell four places to 8th. Croatia fell from 8th to 9th.


In retrospect it would have been better for many reasons had we drawn a difficult team in the playoffs and not qualified. This tournament has done us a lot of damage that will not soon be repaired.

Such as?...

[John83]

Such as?...
Our absurd overconfidence when drawn in a group with three teams significantly better than us may have been slightly tarnished.

[DannyInvincible]

Our absurd overconfidence when drawn in a group with three teams significantly better than us may have been slightly tarnished.

I dunno; I still think we can make it out of the group.

[jbyrne]

In retrospect it would have been better for many reasons had we drawn a difficult team in the playoffs and not qualified. This tournament has done us a lot of damage that will not soon be repaired.

at the very least the tournament highlighted exactly where we are on the world stage and hopefully tells us a lesson of what needs to be done to highlight our shortcomings. that is a worst case benefit from qualifying.

qualifying for a tournament can never be a bad thing. sure why exist as an international team if your comment is to be believed?

[Serb]

Despite our performance, anyone who thinks we're better off not qualifying is, quite simply, wrong. We are tangibly better off financially for a start, thanks to the €8 million we received for qualifying (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2012#Prize_money) (we should be able to afford JD's wages for another couple of months now at least). We were also likely to have been found at this level sooner or later — there's at least a chance that we'll take our lessons from the various hidings we got and begin to mature tactically.

To paraphrase a terrible cliché — it's better to have qualified and lost than never to have qualified at all.

[DannyInvincible]

it's better to have qualified and lost than never to have qualified at all.

Beautiful. But salting our performances with poetry and romance won't save them. :p

[geysir]

I think Serb made a conscious effort to leave the love out of the equation.

[tricky_colour]

Strictly speaking, the liver doesn't regenerate. The healthy part of the liver is, with some growth, able to compensate for lost function.

That's a relief!!

[tricky_colour]

So anyone now what our rating would have been if we had not qualified, but still started on the same ranking?

I don't actually know how the system works, would we have lost less points by not playing?

[Charlie Darwin]

That's a relief!!
Never say you don't get a rounded education round these parts.


So anyone now what our rating would have been if we had not qualified, but still started on the same ranking?

I don't actually know how the system works, would we have lost less points by not playing?
Basically your points tally over a period of four years, and you gradually lose the points built up over the previous years, so every month you will gain X amount of points from the games you play and lose Y amount of points because your results from the past four years depreciate. That's why you can lose points without playing a game.

We didn't lose anything by playing in the Euros - if we had gotten a win or a draw, though, it would have been worth more the same result in a friendly or qualifier. We got 0 points for losing 3 games, but we would have gotten 0 points anyway for not playing any games. So no, we would be in exactly the same position whether we'd qualified or not, only presumably we wouldn't have gotten the bump that came with qualifying in the first place.

[tricky_colour]

Thanks Charlie, but I guess those 'duck eggs' will be on our record for a while.

Also if the games which dropped out scored points would our average go down I guess it would, or at least the sum total would.

Do you get more points from a result against a good team?

It seems you do.

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/fifafacts/rawrank/ip-590_10e_wrpointcalculation_8771.pdf




How are points calculated in the FIFA World Ranking?
1. Calculation of points for the FIFA World Ranking
The basic logic of these calculations is simple. Any team that does well in world football wins points and lays the
foundations for climbing the world ranking. However, the number of points that can actually be won in a match
depends on the following factors:
• Was the match won, or did it end in a draw? (M)
• How important was the match (friendly match to FIFA World Cup™)? (I)
• How strong was the opponent in terms of its ranking position and the confederation to which it belongs?
(T and C)
These factors are brought together in the following formula to ascertain the total number of points (P).
P = M x I x T x C x 100

From that it seems the more games you play the better, so you can advance by playing loads of carp teams.
However you would only score a few points so best to play the strongest teams you can beat as four years of 4+4+4+... is better then 1+1+1+1..

[Charlie Darwin]

Duck eggs? The number of games you play is irrelevant. We played 3 games and got 0 points. If we'd played 0 games we'd still have got 0 points. We could have played 10 games and still got 0 points. 0 points is 0 points.

Yes, our points total goes down if the games that drop out we scored points in. But that happens regardless of how many points we get - we lose the same number, all that changes is how many we gain from the current round of fixtures.

Yes, you get more points the higher ranked the team you play is, and Championship games are worth more than qualifiers, which are worth more than friendlies.

[AlaskaFox]

AFAIK, we lost the points we had for beating Colombia 1-0 and drawing 1-1 with Serbia back in May/June 2008. Drawing with Colombia and beating Bosnia didn't do a great job replacing those.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Does it really matter? At this exact point in time...

[DannyInvincible]

Does it really matter? At this exact point in time...

Every result counts as far as ranking and potential seeding are concerned, but, aye, it's probably not the most pressing of our concerns right now.

[tricky_colour]

Duck eggs? The number of games you play is irrelevant. We played 3 games and got 0 points. If we'd played 0 games we'd still have got 0 points. We could have played 10 games and still got 0 points. 0 points is 0 points.

Yes, our points total goes down if the games that drop out we scored points in. But that happens regardless of how many points we get - we lose the same number, all that changes is how many we gain from the current round of fixtures.

Yes, you get more points the higher ranked the team you play is, and Championship games are worth more than qualifiers, which are worth more than friendlies.

Yes I see that now, those games would have dropped out anyway, so no harm done. Also if you play lower ranked teams you can boost your points
total, it seems the more games you play the better provided the player are not too tired to get a result.

[Edgar]

So anyone now what our rating would have been if we had not qualified, but still started on the same ranking?

I don't actually know how the system works, would we have lost less points by not playing?

If you had lost on penalties to Estonia in the play-off and then played the same friendlies, without going to the EURO, you'd have had 875 points this month (instead of 762).

I know how the system works :)

Back to reality, you'll remain 26th in August.

FIFA Ranking (http://www.football-rankings.info/2012/07/fifa-ranking-august-2012-preview.html): August 2012 preview.

[p2011]

If you had lost on penalties to Estonia in the play-off and then played the same friendlies, without going to the EURO, you'd have had 875 points this month (instead of 762).

I know how the system works :)

Back to reality, you'll remain 26th in August.

FIFA Ranking (http://www.football-rankings.info/2012/07/fifa-ranking-august-2012-preview.html): August 2012 preview.

Which would have left us 18th in the world. The vagaries of ranking systems: qualifying puts you down 8 places, staying at home leaves you safe at 18th. In any case, 26th or 32nd or so sounds more like our realistic level, i.e. close to the cut-off for getting to World Cups

[tricky_colour]

OK I am getting confused now.
As we gained no points we would be on the same number of points if we had not played any games at all.
However we would probably have dropped in the rankings because other teams gained points.
Although this depends somewhat on which games dropped out of the ranking calculation (if any).

I suppose technically we could have risen in the ranking by not playing (but very unlikely).

Also when p2011 says "close to the cut-off for getting to World Cups" this is a bit misleading
although 32 teams will play in the world cup only 13 of them will be European teams.
Currently we would need to be world ranked 18th to be at the cut off point.
We are I think now 16th in Europe so with 13 teams qualifying we are 'not far off.

We would need another 90 points to get the 13th spot.

Actually I think under Edgar's ranking preview we have actually improved our
European ranking (but I or someone else needs to check that!!).
Indeed I think it makes no difference because I don't see any team dropping
below us so it must make no difference.

[Irwin3]

The rankings are calculated using averages. So having 0, 0, 0 will bring your average down. Without those 3 defeats as Edgar has shown above, our points total and ranking would be higher.

[tricky_colour]

No mention of averages in the calculation
from the guide I looked at but there is in wikipedia.

[tricky_colour]

So..........as it is an average we did lose points by going to Euro 2012!!!

[the bear]

Glad to see England getting rewarded for their excellant form at the euros:rolleyes: 3rd best team in the world.

[the bear]

Glad to see England getting rewarded for their excellant form at the euros:rolleyes: 3rd best team in the world.


The England circus goes on with Ferdinand now in trouble for endorsing someone calling Ashley Cole a Choc Ice ( black on the outside, white on the inside). What do they expect from Cole after he was married to a Super Split

[ArdeeBhoy]

Every result counts as far as ranking and potential seeding are concerned, but, aye, it's probably not the most pressing of our concerns right now.

Well yeah, until Astana this is all of conjecture. And even if it wasn't, am guessing our ability to get 'shock' results is now highly limited.
As we haven't beaten anyone higher than us in the rankings (exc. the Fr*nch over 90 mins) in ages...
:(

[DannyInvincible]

We remain 26th in the latest rankings released today. Germany remain in second position whilst Sweden fall one place to 18th. Austria are up 11 places to 49th and Kazakhstan are up three places to 142nd. The Faroes are down one place to 154th.

[tricky_colour]

I suppose 26th is not too bad after our Euro exploits.
Kazakhstan sound quite beatable at 142th.
Worse than Cyprus and Malta but better than Liechtenstein.
Seeing Cyprus there might have you a bit worried but they were rated a bit higher at the time between 80 and 90.

Bookmakers odds for Ireland win 4/5 draw 5/2 lose 7/2

Goes without saying we need to win, Kazakhstan held Austria to a 0-0 recently, 11 October 2011.
Austria had no chance of qualifying at that point, but hen neither did Kazakhstan.

[DannyInvincible]

Despite two victories in September, we're down two places to 28th in the latest rankings: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/international/2012/1003/340119-spain-stay-top-as-ireland-drop-in-rankings/

Were the points gained from the Hungary friendly fixture before the Euros removed from our tally then due to the Hungarian football association's error over the fourth official? The fixture appears to have been removed from our results on FIFA's website: http://www.fifa.com/associations/association=irl/fixturesresults/gender=m/index.html#

[Edgar]

Despite two victories in September, we're down two places to 28th in the latest rankings: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/international/2012/1003/340119-spain-stay-top-as-ireland-drop-in-rankings/

Were the points gained from the Hungary friendly fixture before the Euros removed from our tally then due to the Hungarian football association's error over the fourth official? The fixture appears to have been removed from our results on FIFA's website: http://www.fifa.com/associations/association=irl/fixturesresults/gender=m/index.html#

No, the points weren't removed now. More here:

The Irish press and FIFA ranking (http://www.football-rankings.info/2012/09/the-irish-press-and-fifa-ranking.html)

You'll most likely drop 8 places next month (with a loss to Germany and a win against Faroe Islands).

FIFA Ranking: November 2012 probable ranking (http://www.football-rankings.info/2012/10/fifa-ranking-november-2012-probable_5.html)

[DannyInvincible]

No, the points weren't removed now. More here:

The Irish press and FIFA ranking (http://www.football-rankings.info/2012/09/the-irish-press-and-fifa-ranking.html)

Ah yes, the Irish press; misinformed as usual... Thanks for the clarification.

So, why doesn't the fixture appear in our FIFA list of past fixtures?

[tetsujin1979]

Ah yes, the Irish press; misinformed as usual... Thanks for the clarification.

So, why doesn't the fixture appear in our FIFA list of past fixtures?
there's an investigation at the moment into the eligibility of one of the linesmen. FIFA aren't recognising it as a fixture until it's resolved
it's the same reason as Duff caps being reduced to 99, but caps are awarded at the discretion of the associations involved, so if the FAI want to award Duff a cap for it, FIFA aren't going to interfere

[DannyInvincible]

there's an investigation at the moment into the eligibility of one of the linesmen. FIFA aren't recognising it as a fixture until it's resolved
it's the same reason as Duff caps being reduced to 99, but caps are awarded at the discretion of the associations involved, so if the FAI want to award Duff a cap for it, FIFA aren't going to interfere

Sorry, yes; I was aware of that. Got confused for a sec. Thought FIFA had included it in our ranking points average.

[Closed Account]

Feb 2008 - Republic Of Ireland 36th in the world

Nov 2012 - Republic Of Ireland 37th in the world.

18th to 37th in 5 months. Ouch.
http://www.football-rankings.info/2012/10/fifa-ranking-november-2012-preview-ii.html

[paul_oshea]

Its more than right and fair though to be honest.

[nigel-harps1954]

Trap out.

[swinfordfc]

37th ...... its where we should be in all honesty!

[p2011]

37th ...... its where we should be in all honesty!

Indeed it is! Where are all the "Trap gets us results" and "Trap increased our rankings" merchants now? Our rankings are in free fall and I can't remember many decent competitive results against decent opposition in about 3 years! Take the blinkers off lads, drop the mantras of faith and analyze the situation as it as.

[DannyInvincible]

Where are all the "Trap gets us results" and "Trap increased our rankings" merchants now?

Those statements were true at one point, but obviously not of late.

[DeLorean]

Indeed it is! Where are all the "Trap gets us results" and "Trap increased our rankings" merchants now? Our rankings are in free fall and I can't remember many decent competitive results against decent opposition in about 3 years! Take the blinkers off lads, drop the mantras of faith and analyze the situation as it as.

We'll be back up to 18th after beating Sweden and Austria.

[John83]

Indeed it is! Where are all the "Trap gets us results" and "Trap increased our rankings" merchants now? Our rankings are in free fall and I can't remember many decent competitive results against decent opposition in about 3 years! Take the blinkers off lads, drop the mantras of faith and analyze the situation as it as.
So those arguments were never valid because they're no longer valid? :dazed:

[Charlie Darwin]

We've dropped down the rankings despite winning the games we were expected to win and losing the game we were expected to lose. We were always unlikely to beat Serbia away. The rankings argument is as valid or invalid as it ever was.

[p2011]

So those arguments were never valid because they're no longer valid? :dazed:

No. They just haven't been valid for about three years now.

[tetsujin1979]

No. They just haven't been valid for about three years now.
so they weren't valid when we were getting results and increasing our ranking?

[p2011]

so they weren't valid when we were getting results and increasing our ranking?

Is it necessary to get so philosophical and so troll-y? Of course results and rankings are a valid measure of success. Did I say they weren't? Results and rankings are valid... alongside the atmosphere in team, development for the future, performances, tactical flexibility, and making fans feel like they can identify with the team.

People say Trap is great because he gets us results and improved the rankings. My opinion: The rankings are dropping and I can't remember a decent performance/result in any game where it mattered for a good while now. How complicated is that?

Feel free to disagree or point out flaws in my thinking or memory, but don't twist my words.

[Dermotron]

30th in the World Football Elo Ratings which imo are a better system.

Even though I find it hard to justify Colombia 9th and 10th in the respective ranking systems

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Football_Elo_Ratings#Top_60_ranking

[p2011]

30th in the World Football Elo Ratings which imo are a better system.

Even though I find it hard to justify Colombia 9th and 10th in the respective ranking systems

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Football_Elo_Ratings#Top_60_ranking

All true, but any team with Falcao who beat Uruguay 4-0 can't be too bad.

[DeLorean]

Rankings-wise, would we have been better off not qualifying for the Euros, say getting eliminated by Estonia after two draws on away goals? It seems a bit mad to me that we could have dropped that many places after, basically, one defeat to Germany. Hungary have started their campaign similarly to ourselves, haven't even really challenged to qualify for the previous few tournaments and are seven places ahead of us. They have actually lost eight qualifying games in the space of time we have lost two, granted they've had one or two impressive victories in that time.

[swinfordfc]

36th in the world rankings on Wednesday!

[DannyInvincible]

Rankings-wise, would we have been better off not qualifying for the Euros, say getting eliminated by Estonia after two draws on away goals?

I found it difficult to believe that that could have been possible, but I'm pretty sure that someone confirmed earlier in the thread that we would have been better off not qualifying for the Euros at all in terms of our ranking.

[DeLorean]

I found it difficult to believe that that could have been possible, but I'm pretty sure that someone confirmed earlier in the thread that we would have been better off not qualifying for the Euros at all in terms of our ranking.

Thanks Danny, I just checked back over the previous page and it is, indeed, discussed at length. No wonder nobody could be arsed answering me! :o