World Ranking

[Torn-Ado]

We will finish 3rd and Scotland will finish 4th.

If I had to be honest, that would be my assessment.

[youngirish]

We will finish 3rd and Scotland will finish 4th.

If I had to be honest, that would be my assessment.

A realistic assessment unlike some of the pro Scotland rubbish spouted on here.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Stop jumping on the bandwagon because they had one or two good results. They will finish fourth in that group.

What bandwagon? I already said I wouldn't swap groups with them. You already mentioned some of the players who'd grace our team ...I'll add Naysmith and probably O'Connor with him (notwithstanding he's a petulent little fcuker).

If we were in Scotlands group - being hopelessly mismanaged as we are -then we'd be dead in the water by now. That's not slighting our players -who I'm on record here as saying are a better crop than Mick McCarthy had available to him in his first couple of years. For that matter if we were in Northern Irelands group -with them, Spain, Denmark and Sweden ...frankly I shudder to think of it.



We have consistently been better than them over the years and people still continue to moan even when we still have a very good chance of qualifying What years? They'd qualified for three world cups before we qualified for anything. They qualified for Euro 96 when we ****ed it away because we indulged the drinking clubs in our squad and Jacks derogation of responsibility and they qualified for France 98 when we were losing to Macedonia and drawing at home to Iceland. Hows that consistently better?

By the way ...our "very good chance of qualifying" that you refer to is based on two unimpressive wins against San Marino. Take them out of the equation and you get a far more realistic view of where we are in this group.

Scots content to finish fourth? You're having a laugh. If they finish fourth there'll be mumblings about Smiths treachery and McLeish fecking it up on them. If we finish fourth -it'll arguably be a commendable recovery.

[Cymro]

As for Cymro claiming Ukraine would top our group he either:
a. Has never seen them play
b. Knows none of their players
c. Has never seen Germany play
d. Has never seen the Czechs play

The Germans are a far better team than the Ukraine (and possibly than France and Italy at present) while the Czechs are slightly better.

I'm afraid you're wrong on all four counts.

1. I've seen Ukraine fairly recently when they played Scotland-it was on the BBC. Nothing really special, but they'd be right up there in our group, don't worry about that.

2. Know none of their players? Aside from having one of the world's best strikers and having solid, Premiership standard performers in other positions-most of them play regular Champions' League footy too-and having seen them play us three to four times fairly recently plus the aforementioned game v Scotland, yeah, you're right. I know nothing about them. How silly of me to claim that I do. :rolleyes:

3. I've seen them play alright. I saw them when we played them last (we won 1-0) and in three major tournaments since then. Their record is fairly mediocre outside of qualifying for these things, apart from WC 2006 where home support carried them through to 3rd place. I remember seeing them struggle really badly for 90 minutes against Latvia in Euro 2004, and going out of the group stage in that competition.

4. A lot's been said about the current Welsh team. I'd say it's the worst for about a decade and we still really should have beaten the Czechs home and away. Ukraine would likely do them if they played tomorrow.


A realistic assessment unlike some of the pro Scotland rubbish spouted on here.

Or the pro Ireland rubbish?

If you lose to Slovakia, you'll likely finish fourth, with your toughest games ahead of you.

Scotland may yet finish fourth in their group, but would still be a better side than Ireland, even if they did.




We have far better players though with a fully fit team. Darren Fletcher and Barry Ferguson? Give me strength. Kenny Miller and Kris Boyd? Pure dung. Wouldn't get a game in the Premiership.

Go ahead and try to argue that those players wouldn't get into the Irish side. I could do with a laugh. ;)

Possibly the two strikers may not but I'd say they'd push your current two. To be fair Doyle and Keane are just about your best players apart from Given and if you had injuries to either of those two I think they'd get in your side.

As for the midfielders, if Fletcher was Irish you'd be writing me an essay on how good he is right now.


I'd say both teams are sh*te but they are punching above their weight at the moment while we are suffering from years of mismanagement. Overtime things will level off.

I'd say it's the opposite myself. Mick McCarthy like Jack Charlton got you places you had no right to be (and I don't mean that disrespectfully). Kerr found your level which is pushing to qualify for tournaments but occasionally coming up short.

On the other hand, Scotland have had a German f*ckwit in charge for 4 years. That man is worse than Sven I swear. We beat Vogts' Scotland 4-0 and they were probably League One standard that day in terms of defending. Las I saw them they were far far better, most likely down to having a manager who could communicate to the players.

You may be going through a similar thing with Staunton, but that is hardly 'years of mismanagement'. The man hasn't even had a campaign yet.

And to be fair if you haven't seen one of Bobby Gould's teams I don't feel you can fully appreciate the true meaning of the phrase 'mismanagement'.:D


We have consistently been better than them over the years and people still continue to moan even when we still have a very good chance of qualifying (which Scotland don't) while the Scots look content to finish in 4th place in their group which let's face it we wouldn't be.

Scotland used to qualify regularly for every tournament going. In terms of history, they're ahead of Ireland.

[youngirish]

As for the midfielders, if Fletcher was Irish you'd be writing me an essay on how good he is right now.

Cymro if you seriously consider yourself a football fan and you are genuinely stating that Darren Fletcher is better than anything we have in central midfield then give up and support hockey or something. Darren Fletcher is the midfield version of John O'Shea at United but without getting as many games or goals. He is absolute pants. The rest of your essay can be ignored on the basis of this ridiculous statement above.

As for Barry Ferguson, a failed Blackburn Rovers joke of a player getting into the Ireland team instead of a younger more highly rated current Blackburn Rovers player Stephen Reid, this says it all to me. Barry Ferguson looks good against Inverness Caledonian Thistle, stick him up against some real players and his lack of quality has always been glaring to see.

As for Scotland qualifying for lots of tournaments pre the Crimean War, yeah great they also have a great record in those tournaments. In every one we've been in we've done far better than their best performance in any they've been in. Oh yeah and we've qualified for 3 world cups out of the last 5 while they've qualified for only 2 so in recent years I'd say we have a way better record but argue that all you like. As for Mick McCarthy and Jack Charlton getting us places we had no right to be, more absolute garbage, Under Charlton we had a 1-11 at various stages of his time in charge, the majority of which would have walked into the English team at the time (a team that got to the semi-finals of the world cup). Don't talk such rubbish.

As for the Ukraine players playing in the Champions League. What you neglected to mention is that the vast majority of them play for Dinamo Kiev who's record in the past few years has been dismal to say the least. To say they are better than Czechs even on current form is more rubbish but don't let the facts obscure a good point.

As for Bertie Vogts being a f**kwit? Didn't he win the European Championship as a manager? Yeah Stan is a better manager than him. Were you on smack typing this post up?

I'm not all pro Ireland either, I think at present we are pretty average, but Scotland are sh*te and I doubt they would finish higher than fourth in our group either. The Slovaks and Czechs would have them particularly away where their record is muck.

Anyway I love all these reactionist types that after a win or two they claim the team is brilliant ignoring all their previous recent history. How easily you forget in the last qualifying campaign less than two years ago with the same players Scotland were absolute pants. Belarus at home anyone? But as I said don't bother trying to remember that far back. Take only the last 2 or 3 games that's all that counts (didn't they get hammerred 2-0 by both Ukraine and Italy recently and struggle to a lucky 2-1 win at home against Georgia - a team worse than Wales?).

[EalingGreen]

If it counts for anything (and it doesn't before you all say it! ;)), I think Cymro's analysis is spot on and (no offence) Young Irish is both underrating Scotland and overrating the ROI, at least over the last couple of years.

If you look at recent results on the pitch during that time, Scotland have performed very well in what is by far the toughest of all Euro Qualifying Groups*, including victories against top-ranked teams. Whereas ROI have been average at best (narrow wins over Wales and Slovakia) or very poor (San Marino, Cyprus).

As I see it, these respective performances have been achieved despite the fact that on paper, the ROI squad should be at least as good as Scotland's, if not rather better. The difference may be accounted for quite simply by sound management by Smith/McLeish, as compared to uninspired management by Kerr, followed by dreadful management by Stan (imo).

Which is why, to return to the topic of the thread, whether any of us thinks Scotland should be World ranked 14th, 24th or 34th, they deserve to have risen above other teams who have underperformed in recent years, including ROI (imo)


* - There is an argument to be made for saying that Scotland just being squeezed into finishing fourth in their Group would be as credible (or better, even) than, say, the ROI finishing 3rd in theirs, when you take into account the respective strength of opposition.

[Stuttgart88]

Whatever about ability, Scotland have a few things going for them that we have been struggling with:


Physical match for their opponents: in midfield in particular they don't get overrun.
Moral stature:their players are mature and committed
Sense of reality: I think few in the Scotland camp go back to their clubs after playing for their country content & smug in their highly paid safety zone
Sense of priority: for many of the Scottish players qualifying for a tournament would be the highlight of their careers. Our English based players probably think finishing 4th in the Premiership / qualifying for UEFA Cup / avoiding relegation is the objective of their season. Or maybe getting an autobiography published.

Inject above factors to the players we can choose from and the last 4 years may have been different for us.

[Lionel Ritchie]

As for Scotland qualifying for lots of tournaments pre the Crimean War, yeah great they also have a great record in those tournaments. In every one we've been in we've done far better than their best performance in any they've been in...

...Anyway I love all these reactionist types that after a win or two they claim the team is brilliant ignoring all their previous recent history. How easily you forget in the last qualifying campaign less than two years ago with the same players Scotland were absolute pants. Belarus at home anyone? But as I said don't bother trying to remember that far back.

So to be clear you'd like us to ignore their more recent history AND their more distant history? So which bit of their history would you like us to believe?

Since you're obsessed with people getting their facts right here's a couple for you.

Fact 1. They qualified for several tournaments before we ever did
Fact 2. They qualified for as many tournaments as we did in the 90's

This bit's worth it's own quote though


Oh yeah and we've qualified for 3 world cups out of the last 5 while they've qualified for only 2 so in recent years I'd say we have a way better record but argue that all you like. Don't talk such rubbish.

Check out the big brain on Youngirish. 3 is a "way better" number than 2. Good to see you're lickspittle-toned posting on here isn't keeping you from watching The Numberjacks.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Hang on a second ...I got one of my facts wrong!!!

Scotland qualified for more tournaments than us in the 90's.

Because 3 is bigger and way better than 2. Sheesh ...thank feck for the Numberjacks

[RogerMilla]

i watch scotland all the time , they are far from sh1te , they're not great i'll give you that but they punch their weight and if you are below par on the day ( see france) they'll punish you. i think young irish has a point about barry ferguson though.

whatever about the world rankings you can only beat the team you're up against. if we go to eastern europe in september and bring back 4-6 points then we can ignore all comparisons with scotland and N. Ireland. Until then we have done nothing to compare with these two teams who have put serious teams like france and spain to the sword in this campaign.

[Lionel Ritchie]

i watch scotland all the time , they are far from sh1te , they're not great i'll give you that but they punch their weight and if you are below par on the day ( see france) they'll punish you. i think young irish has a point about barry ferguson though.

whatever about the world rankings you can only beat the team you're up against. if we go to eastern europe in september and bring back 4-6 points then we can ignore all comparisons with scotland and N. Ireland. Until then we have done nothing to compare with these two teams who have put serious teams like france and spain to the sword in this campaign.

Agreed! Well said that man.

[youngirish]

If it counts for anything (and it doesn't before you all say it! ;))

No it doesn't.


So to be clear you'd like us to ignore their more recent history AND their more distant history? So which bit of their history would you like us to believe?

Since you're obsessed with people getting their facts right here's a couple for you.

Fact 1. They qualified for several tournaments before we ever did
Fact 2. They qualified for as many tournaments as we did in the 90's

This bit's worth it's own quote though



Check out the big brain on Youngirish. 3 is a "way better" number than 2. Good to see you're lickspittle-toned posting on here isn't keeping you from watching The Numberjacks.

I'd say two second round appearances and a quarter final appearance are way better than 2 first round exits (one to Costa Rica). Yeah but as I said believe what you want it's the taking part that counts after all (South Korea are as good as Italy btw because they've qualified for the same number of World Cups recently) but try to stay on the methadone. Also stop bringing up ancient stats about qualifying for ancient tournaments. Who cares? I thought I addressed this in my previous post but I'll sum it up, Hughie Gallacher doesn't play for Scotland anymore you sausage. As for EalingGreen disagreeing and stating Scotland are better than the Republic. How surprising is that? He probably still thinks David Healy is better than Henry because he scored more goals against Liechenstein so I tend to treat everything that he says about ROI or NI for that matter with an ocean of salt.

As for bringing 4-6 points back from Eastern Europe Scotland would be lucky to get 1 in the same fixtures so I don't see how that's relevant.

Btw lads for all the sh*te spouted on here we are still better odds to qualify for the Euros than both Northen Ireland and Scotland (far better) in every bookies going and don't take this the wrong way but I think they know a bit more about football than Lionel Ritchie, Cymro and EalingGreen.

[Stuttgart88]

We've been over this before, but on recent away form (last year, last 2 years, last 3 years....last 20 years) you'd give the Scots a better chance in Slovakia & Czech Republic than us. It's a lot less than 20 years since they beat a half decent side away. Norway, Slovenia...

Aaaggghh, the ****ing Israeli equaliser!

I'd fancy us in a head to head against Scotland though, home or away.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I'd say two second round appearances and a quarter final appearance are way better than 2 first round exists (one to Costa Rica). Yeah but as I said believe what you want it's the taking part that counts after all (South Korea are as good as Italy btw because they've qualified for the same number of World Cups recently) but try to stay on the methadone. Also stop bringing up ancient stats about qualifying for ancient tournaments. . You're being nonsensical now Youngirish. You include a twelve year (90-02) span of results pertaining to us in various competitions we were in and then demand others not use "ancient stats".

In the same twelve year timespan the scots qualified for the final stages of two tournaments we didn't make it to -which you don't want to discuss at all. Never mind how they got on in the finals -nor us for that matter - better teams than both Ireland and Scotland have gone home in the group stages of a finals having blazed their way through regional qualification.

I'll partially agree with stutt that in a one off head to head with all our best players available -we probably should beat Scotland -but with Sergeant CooCoo-Bananas running the show -I'd put the farm on the crossdressers.

[youngirish]

We've been over this before, but on recent away form (last year, last 2 years, last 3 years....last 20 years) you'd give the Scots a better chance in Slovakia & Czech Republic than us. It's a lot less than 20 years since they beat a half decent side away. Norway, Slovenia...

Aaaggghh, the ****ing Israeli equaliser!

I'd fancy us in a head to head against Scotland though, home or away.

Stutts in addition to me and a few others you are one of the few remote outposts of sanity on these boards.

A beacon of light in the darkness of irrationality.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Stutts in addition to me and a few others you are one of the few remote outposts of sanity on these boards.

A beacon of light in the darkness of irrationality.

:confused:

Did you actually read what he said?

[Stuttgart88]

Because 3 is bigger and way better than 2. Sheesh ...thank feck for the Numberjacks
3 is definitely better than 2 at jumping. My daughter, an avid Numberjacks fan, says so.

[Dodge]

Stutts in addition to me and a few others you are one of the few remote outposts of sanity on these boards.


You mean there are others on your level?! :eek:

Or are you trying to be humble?

[youngirish]

:confused:

Did you actually read what he said?

I assumed he was basically agreeing with me that even with our rubbish manager we should beat them, hence backing up my original claim that they are sh*te considering we are hardly brazil.


You mean there are others on your level?! :eek:

Or are you trying to be humble?

There are others yes who adhere to my teachings.

[RogerMilla]

Aaaggghh, the ****ing Israeli equaliser!
.

either of them home or away , they still hurt

[NeilMcD]

Stutts in addition to me and a few others you are one of the few remote outposts of sanity on these boards.

A beacon of light in the darkness of irrationality.



Poot Stutts getting lobbed in with this pool of thought. Rescue yourself soon Stutts.

[youngirish]

Poot Stutts getting lobbed in with this pool of thought. Rescue yourself soon Stutts.
Could be worse. He could be simmering in the pot of your great footballing wisdom and predictions which you regularly display on these boards. An empty pot.

You still hanging around Ipswich waiting for Alex Bruce to turn into the next Franz Beckenbauer?

[Cymro]

Cymro if you seriously consider yourself a football fan and you are genuinely stating that Darren Fletcher is better than anything we have in central midfield then give up and support hockey or something. Darren Fletcher is the midfield version of John O'Shea at United but without getting as many games or goals. He is absolute pants. The rest of your essay can be ignored on the basis of this ridiculous statement above.

He may not get as many games or goals as O'Shea but is a much better player. God knows how O'Shea gets a game for Man United. Fletcher may not be brilliant which I'm not claiming he is but would currently get in the Irish side no problem. When Carsley, Stephen Ireland and the two Reids are your competition a lot of players would stand a decent chance of getting in that midfield.

We should run a poll in an alternative thread for this one as I feel even Ireland fans would admit Fletcher would get in their side.


As for Barry Ferguson, a failed Blackburn Rovers joke of a player getting into the Ireland team instead of a younger more highly rated current Blackburn Rovers player Stephen Reid, this says it all to me. Barry Ferguson looks good against Inverness Caledonian Thistle, stick him up against some real players and his lack of quality has always been glaring to see.

As I said, he was injured while there. Again no great player and possibly not even as good as Stephen Reid but would certainly challenge for a place in your side, and given that your initial assertion was that you had 'far better individuals', I think I'm right to challenge you on this.


As for Scotland qualifying for lots of tournaments pre the Crimean War, yeah great they also have a great record in those tournaments. In every one we've been in we've done far better than their best performance in any they've been in. Oh yeah and we've qualified for 3 world cups out of the last 5 while they've qualified for only 2 so in recent years I'd say we have a way better record but argue that all you like. As for Mick McCarthy and Jack Charlton getting us places we had no right to be, more absolute garbage, Under Charlton we had a 1-11 at various stages of his time in charge, the majority of which would have walked into the English team at the time (a team that got to the semi-finals of the world cup). Don't talk such rubbish.

I'm the one who's talking rubbish? Seriously? Even the most one-eyed of Ireland fans would have to admit that Big Jack overachieved a fair bit with Ireland. Again run a poll on this here and I think you'd find the opposite is the case.

You're basically saying there that that Irish side would have comfortably been among the top 5 teams in the world. I'll let any neutrals decide for themselves who's talking rubbish here.

And by the way, history goes back a fair bit longer than the period you selectively chose to make your point. Prior to the war, Scotland always had better teams. That counts for something, well more than your 'we qualified for one more world cup in this or that period of time' argument.

As for the Ukraine players playing in the Champions League. What you neglected to mention is that the vast majority of them play for Dinamo Kiev who's record in the past few years has been dismal to say the least. To say they are better than Czechs even on current form is more rubbish but don't let the facts obscure a good point.


As for Bertie Vogts being a f**kwit? Didn't he win the European Championship as a manager? Yeah Stan is a better manager than him. Were you on smack typing this post up?

Given that the words were 'mismanagement' rather than 'having a crap manager' I feel that is a reasonable assessment.

Also, Germany are a top top team-not to take anything away from Vogts there but a lot of managers could have won a tournament with them.

And that was over a decade ago. When judging managers, you have to go on their most recent record. And Vogts's record with Scotland was......not the best, to be fair.


I'm not all pro Ireland either, I think at present we are pretty average, but Scotland are sh*te and I doubt they would finish higher than fourth in our group either. The Slovaks and Czechs would have them particularly away where their record is muck.

They're the fourth seeds so if they were in our group it'd look like this:

Germany
Czech Rep
Rep of Ireland
Scotland
Wales
Cyprus
San Marino

I think they'd finish above us, you, Cyprus and San Marino on current form. That's third. You could perhaps argue that you or indeed us might beat them in our games but I doubt we'd have the consistency to finish above them, considering some of our results in this group-Cyprus San marino, Slovakia etc. That's an honest opinion. The Czechs too would be struggling as I said we should have won home and away against them or at least got a draw. The only team who would definitely finish above them would be the Germans.


Anyway I love all these reactionist types that after a win or two they claim the team is brilliant ignoring all their previous recent history. How easily you forget in the last qualifying campaign less than two years ago with the same players Scotland were absolute pants. Belarus at home anyone? But as I said don't bother trying to remember that far back. Take only the last 2 or 3 games that's all that counts (didn't they get hammerred 2-0 by both Ukraine and Italy recently and struggle to a lucky 2-1 win at home against Georgia - a team worse than Wales?).

You use the word 'hammered' pretty liberally there. Ukraine v Scotland was 0-0 until about the 70th minute and it was a very close game-I watched it, to be sure.

The Italians always win their home qualifiers and they are the best team in the world. Not really anything to be ashamed about there, either.

The last camapign was pretty awful from Scotland but I think you can put that down to the Vogts effect. You might argue Ireland are the same with Staunton and you might have a valid point but I think the two teams are at least equal in terms of player ability.

[youngirish]

Regarding having a similar level of players to us, that is Cymro a load of old nonsense and you know it.

Finnan - a champions league winner and arguably one of the best right backs in the world. Recognised as such by his fellow professionals as he is a regular in the Premiership team of the season.
Given - one of the best Premiership keepers for over a decade. Again possibly one of the best in the world in his position and also a regular member of the team of the season (more so than any other goalkeeper in Premiership history if memory serves me correctly).
Robbie Keane - commanded tens of millions of pounds in transfer fees from top clubs all over Europe before he was 22, keeps an England International out of the first team at Spurs.
Damien Duff - won the Premiership twice. Until recently one of the most highly rated wingers in the Premiership until struggling with injury problems recently however can still turn on the style on his day and would stroll into the Scotland team on one leg (McGeady would even get his game for them).
Richard Dunne - Man City player of the season a record 3 times in a row ahead of Shaun Wright Phillips a few seasons ago another full English International.
Kevin Doyle - unarguably one of the best young players in probably the strongest league in the world at present. A nominee for young player of the season even after a long period of abscence through injury.
McShane - one of the most sought after young players outside the Premiership

Scotland
Shaun Maloney - Average (at best) Villa player.
Barry Ferguson - Blackburn reject nowhere near as good as any of our midfielders (even young Stephen Ireland).
Darren Fletcher - United part time player, atrocious. As I said similar to JOS and anyone that thinks we need him in our team needs serious help.
Kenny Miller - Average Championship striker.
Kris Boyd - Decent SPL striker, doubt he has the pace to make it in a more competitive league. Would get a place on our bench.

Cyrmo give it up if you are seriously suggesting Scotland have better or even as good individual players as us then you have a serious bias against the Republic team. Any neutral with a clue about football would struggle to find more than 2 players in their team that are of better quality than one of our players in the same position.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Ferguson and Fletcher* would get into our midfield. We have some good midfielders but there's a strong suspicion that it's lightweight ...mainly due to well -it being lightweight. That it has to be bolstered by Lee Carsley who was not so long ago considered surplus to requirments is evidence of this. Our midfield is crying out for a Ferguson type player.

*Roy Keane reputedly spent no small amount of effort trying to persuade Fletcher to play for Ireland instead of the Scots.


Cyrmo give it up if you are seriously suggesting Scotland have better or even as good individual players as us then you have a serious bias against the Republic team. YI -will you ever take the steel rod out of your ass. Now Cymro AND Ealing Green have it in for us because they're "biased"? Jesus aren't we blessed to have your non-hysterical, non-partisan analysis of the relative merits of those togging out for neighbouring associations -not to mind our own.:rolleyes:

[eirebhoy]

Shaun Maloney - Average (at best) Villa player.

Seriously mate I'm beginning to think you've a problem with my opinion on Scottish based players. :D How in the name of jaysus could anyone who has seen much Maloney in the last couple of years call him average at best? At least I'm absolutely certain you'll be proven wrong on that one in time. :)

[Cymro]

Cyrmo give it up if you are seriously suggesting Scotland have better or even as good individual players as us then you have a serious bias against the Republic team. Any neutral with a clue about football would struggle to find more than 2 players in their team that are of better quality than one of our players in the same position.

You accuse me of bias, then go on to write an entirely green-tinted reply to my post.

I can accept that Given and Finnan are probably better than anything Scotland have, but the rest of your side is honestly no better. I'll now explain why.


Robbie Keane - commanded tens of millions of punds in transfer fees from top clubs all over Europe before he was 22, keeps an England International out of the first team at Spurs.

Tens of millions? He was transferred once for about £8m, that's about £1.5m more than Barry Ferguson cost Blackburn from Rangers, and it seems you like to hang him up as an example of how poor Scotland supposedly are.

Also, Defoe hasn't been in the England squad for a good year or so.


Damien Duff - won the Premiership twice. Until recently one of the most highly rated wingers in the Premiership until struggling with injury problems recently however can still turn on the style on his day and would stroll into the Scotland team on one leg (mcGeady woudl even get his game for them).

His day hasn't come around for a while now. I'm not denying he has talent but in the last 2 or 3 years he's done nothing to show he's not a shadow of his former self. And unless he does show this next year, he can't really be considered a top player. At best, the jury's out there.


Richard Dunne - Man City player of the season a record 3 times in a row ahead of Shaun Wright Phillips a few seasons ago another full English International.

Wright-Phillips hasn't been at Man City for two of those three season. And Man City are crap-not hard to be POY there.


Kevin Doyle - unarguably one of the best young players in probably the strongest league in the world at present

Whilst I can see that Doyle is a player with plenty of potential, he's ultimately unproven at the top level yet. Think of the likes of Francis Jeffers for players whose careers were similar to Doyle's so far-one excellent season in the Premiership-but have gone swiftly downhill since. Time will tell.


McShane - one of the most sought after young players outside the Premiership

On what do you base this? What top clubs have shown interest in him? Better yet, have any clubs shown interest in him? Also, he was allowed to go by Alex Ferguson. If he'd have been good enough to make it to the top he probably wouldn't have been.

And see the debate we had in World Football for why La Liga is the best league in the world.:p


Scotland
Shaun Maloney - average Villa player.

He's only been there since January, ffs, and he's had some good games for them in that time.


Barry ferguson - Blackburn reject nowhere near as good as any of our midfielders (even young Stephen Ireland).

I've twice mentioned that he had bad luck with injuries while there and never had the chance to make an impact. We can only speculate as to whether he would have been a success, but considering Blackburn would not sell him back to Rangers for less than they bought him (£6.5m) it would suggest they thought he was worth hanging on to.


Darren Fletcher - United part time player.

'Part time' in probably the Premiership's best midfield is no bad thing. Also, it's also an inaccurate description since Fletcher made 40 (11 sub) appearances for them last term.

And let's not forget a couple of the very decent Scottish players you left out:

-Craig Gordon, who could well become as good a player as Given in time, and is certainly a better player than any of Ireland's other options in goal

-Kenny Miller, who OK plays in the SPL but was a huge hit at Wolves and had plenty of interest from Premiership clubs

Those two plus Fletcher would definitely be better than your average player. Scotland have a lot of other solid Old Firm/Premiership performers too, most of whom are the same level as your average players.

[Cymro]

YI -will you ever take the steel rod out of your ass. Now Cymro AND Ealing Green have it in for us because they're "biased"? Jesus aren't we blessed to have your non-hysterical, non-partisan analysis of the relative merits of those togging out for neighbouring associations -not to mind our own.:rolleyes:

I don't 'have it in' for anyone, not even youngirish. But this is a debate and as such I am entitled to be blunt in my views if I strongly disagree with someone.

[youngirish]

Robbie Keane also transferred for 13 million, 12 million and 6 million. Leave those out did you?

Barry Ferguson being rubbish at Blackburn due to injuries? I watched him lots of times when fit and he was cr*p.

Defoe is currently still a regular in English squads and it's blatantly untrue to say he hasn't been in a squad for more than a year.

Doyle being compared to Francis Jeffers? (Doyle was also player of the year in the Championship the season before last so he's not a one season wonder).

I'd say Man City are better than any team in the SPL bar Celtic btw.

Duff injury prone or otherwise is still unarguably more talented than anything Scotland have.

Kenny Miller was average in the Championship whatever you like to believe. Keogh is more highly rated at Wolves than he ever was and he doesn't even get into our full strength squad.

Craig Gordon as good as Given? Ha ha ha.

Sorry but you honestly don't have a leg to stand on you are starting to mix blatant untruths (Defoe) with delusional rabble.

[DmanDmythDledge]

And Man City are crap-not hard to be POY there.
In fairness Dunne has probably been the best defender in the Premiership over the past 2 seasons.

[John83]

Slight exaggeration there Dmanetc. but he's certainly been very good - I'm surprised not to see a bigger club come in for him.

[DmanDmythDledge]

Slight exaggeration there Dmanetc.
I'm not exaggerating.

[Paddy Garcia]

Poot Stutts getting lobbed in with this pool of thought. Rescue yourself soon Stutts.

I agree, I find Stutts very sensible. It was a terribly unfair allegation.

[tetsujin1979]

Also, Defoe hasn't been in the England squad for a good year or so.
Defoe played for England 8 times last season - http://www.soccerbase.com/players_details.sd?playerid=17118 - and was on the bench for their last game against Estonia - http://www.soccerbase.com/results3.sd?gameid=516362


Wright-Phillips hasn't been at Man City for two of those three season. And Man City are crap-not hard to be POY there.
True. but in the other 2 seasons, Dunne finished ahead of Andy Cole (the top scorer that season) and Barton. The previous year he finished second behind Anelka IIRC, and again ahead of SWP


On what do you base this? What top clubs have shown interest in him? Better yet, have any clubs shown interest in him? Also, he was allowed to go by Alex Ferguson. If he'd have been good enough to make it to the top he probably wouldn't have been.
Aston Villa and Sunderland have both expressed an interest. Ferguson didn't let him go, he left of his own accord after Ferguson couldn't guarantee him first team football.

[youngirish]

I agree, I find Stutts very sensible. It was a terribly unfair allegation.

Shouldn't you be off doing the lotto because you know what numbers are going to come out tonight? At least that's what you'll tell people tomorrow in the pub but alas you never got round to buying a ticket.

Either that or trying to predict the Ireland team in 3012 when the planet is ruled by apes.

[Cymro]

Robbie Keane also transferred for 13 million, 12 million and 6 million. Leave those out did you?

Barry Ferguson being rubbish at Blackburn due to injuries? I watched him lots of times when fit and he was cr*p.

Defoe is currently still a regular in English squads and it's blatantly untrue to say he hasn't been in a squad for more than a year.

Doyle being compared to Francis Jeffers? (Doyle was also player of the year in the Championship the season before last so he's not a one season wonder).

I'd say Man City are better than any team in the SPL bar Celtic btw.

Duff injury prone or otherwise is still unarguably more talented than anything Scotland have.

Kenny Miller was average in the Championship whatever you like to believe. Keogh is more highly rated at Wolves than he ever was and he doesn't even get into our full strength squad.

Craig Gordon as good as Given? Ha ha ha.

Sorry but you honestly don't have a leg to stand on you are starting to mix blatant untruths (Defoe) with delusional rabble.

A significant amount of your post just dismisses my claims offering nothing to back it up. Examples:


Barry Ferguson being rubbish at Blackburn due to injuries? I watched him lots of times when fit and he was cr*p.

And yet as I said, Blackburn were not willing to let him go for less than they paid. They obviously thought he worth hanging on to. Your counter-argument here is just an opinion that offers nothing to back it up.


I'd say Man City are better than any team in the SPL bar Celtic btw.

Purely speculative-I don't agree, and while I can admit there is a possibility you may be right, it is entirely an opinion and I bet quite a few would disagree with you there. What can't be argued is that Celtic would be a top 8 Premiership team and Scotland draw a lot of internationals from their side. If you want to deny that Celtic would be top 8, you'd be contradicting an awful lot of factual evidence, in the form of results. Look at Celtic's recent European record against Premiership clubs-it speaks for itself.


Duff injury prone or otherwise is still unarguably more talented than anything Scotland have.

He hasn't really played for two years and when he has he's been unspectacular. If fully fit and on form I would agree but it's been a long long time since that was the case. Indeed that was my original point but again you've conveniently ignored that.


Kenny Miller was average in the Championship whatever you like to believe. Keogh is more highly rated at Wolves than he ever was and he doesn't even get into our full strength squad.

And Miller was so average at Championship level that he was frequently attracting attention from Premiership sides and scored plenty for Wolves even when they were not playing as well as they should have been. He was top scorer for them in both his last two seasons following their relegation from the Premiership.

So to suggest that Keogh who has a solid record in the lower English leagues but is relatively unproven at Championship level is better is plain ignorance.


Craig Gordon as good as Given? Ha ha ha.

(In this case, you take something I've said and twisted it to make me look like I've said something delusional, so that you have a counter-argument, instead of actually taking my comment at face value and trying to address it. If you read my comment, you'd have seen what I actually said was more along the lines of 'Gordon is better than the average Irish player, and could go on to be as good as Given'. If you can't admit to that as a possibility, you're the one being delusional)

[eirebhoy]

His day hasn't come around for a while now. I'm not denying he has talent but in the last 2 or 3 years he's done nothing to show he's not a shadow of his former self. And unless he does show this next year, he can't really be considered a top player. At best, the jury's out there.

He certainly made Bale look very average. As for McShane, plenty of clubs are interested in him because he'll be a top player. You think we're biased saying that though. It's pretty clear he has a great future. Actually, I think you're taking it to the extreme to try and balance out the bias which we must have since we're so positive about the current set of players.

[Cymro]

He certainly made Bale look very average. As for McShane, plenty of clubs are interested in him because he'll be a top player.

No disrespect but performing slightly above the average in a game that ranks among the worst I've seen in ages does not make him a top player.

Bale is 17, and had just played an awful lot of Championship games in a short space of time. Considering the physicality of Championship football, he was probably exhausted by the end of that game.

And the rest of the Welsh defence Duff played against included a man who 10 months prior was playing in the Welsh Premier, a man who couldn't get a game at West Ham and a man who couldn't get a game at Sunderland.

[Cymro]

As for McShane, plenty of clubs are interested in him because he'll be a top player. You think we're biased saying that though. It's pretty clear he has a great future. Actually, I think you're taking it to the extreme to try and balance out the bias which we must have since we're so positive about the current set of players.

Let's get one thing straight here-I'm not saying McShane is crap. I'm saying he's unproven at any level above Championship, and I'm also saying that youngirish is talking out of his arse if he rates him as 'way better than anything Scotland have'.

My comments are all being taken out of context.

[SkStu]

look, its pretty simple. Neither the Irish team nor the Scots are good teams. YoungIrish, your posts are a bit embarrassing really.

If you want to look at history, the Scots' history and tradition in qualifying for major tournaments is far and away better than ours. We had a good spell in the late 80s, early 90s but thats hardly relevant in terms of how good we are now.

Ignoring history and looking at the current state of each squad, Ferguson (maybe) and Fletcher (definitely) would be in the Irish team/squad (probably others too). Strangely, however, i dont envy the Scottish position as i feel our team has greater potential and a brighter future but to say that we are a far superior team TODAY is way way off the mark. We should discuss it in 2-4 years time.

Cymro, i tend to agree with most of your posts on this matter but to say the Jack Charlton simply overachieved is not fair. It is widely acknowledged that we had a very talented squad of players from 87-96. A lot of the players would have walked onto the English team from the same era. McGrath, Whelan, Brady, O'Leary, Stapleton, Irwin, Aldridge to name a few.

[eirebhoy]

Well to be perfectly honest, as a Celtic fan, I'd have McShane over Caldwell, McManus and Pressley any day. Who else is he up against? Weir?

Scotland have good midfield players but not too much else.

[Cymro]

look, its pretty simple. Neither the Irish team nor the Scots are good teams. YoungIrish, your posts are a bit embarrassing really.

If you want to look at history, the Scots' history and tradition in qualifying for major tournaments is far and away better than ours. We had a good spell in the late 80s, early 90s but thats hardly relevant in terms of how good we are now.

Ignoring history and looking at the current state of each squad, Ferguson (maybe) and Fletcher (definitely) would be in the Irish team/squad (probably others too). Strangely, however, i dont envy the Scottish position as i feel our team has greater potential and a brighter future but to say that we are a far superior team TODAY is way way off the mark. We should discuss it in 2-4 years time.

Cymro, i tend to agree with most of your posts on this matter but to say the Jack Charlton simply overachieved is not fair. It is widely acknowledged that we had a very talented squad of players from 87-96. A lot of the players would have walked onto the English team from the same era. McGrath, Whelan, Brady, O'Leary, Stapleton, Irwin, Aldridge to name a few.

I don't really disagree with anything you say, in that the Jack Charlton era was a good one, but in relation to youngirish's (and yours) comments, firstly, the England sides of the 70s and 80s failed to even qualify for a few things and indeed that was probably the low point of their history. So while I agree on that the impression I got from youngirish was that he felt that side would have been one of the best in the world in those days. I would have to disagree with that although it was a good team.

Also Scotland have had just as good teams if not better in the past, notably in the Souness/Dalglish era.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I don't 'have it in' for anyone, not even youngirish. But this is a debate and as such I am entitled to be blunt in my views if I strongly disagree with someone.

I think you missed the 'Question Mark' in my post Cymro. Reproduced and highlighted below for truth and accuracy sake.;)


YI -will you ever take the steel rod out of your ass. Now Cymro AND Ealing Green have it in for us because they're "biased"? Jesus aren't we blessed to have your non-hysterical, non-partisan analysis of the relative merits of those togging out for neighbouring associations -not to mind our own.

As for Jack Charlton -on the whole he had a bloody good bunch of players. Pity he didn't have just a little bit more up front maybe. Also -he did less than he might have to ensure there was a good crop on the way up behind them.

[Cymro]

I think you missed the 'Question Mark' in my post Cymro. Reproduced and highlighted below for truth and accuracy sake.;)



As for Jack Charlton -on the whole he had a bloody good bunch of players. Pity he didn't have just a little bit more up front maybe. Also -he did less than he might have to ensure there was a good crop on the way up behind them.


:o I was in a bit of a rush when posting earlier, so that's probably why I made the oversight.

Not the first time that's happened to me here though so you'll probably get used to it soon enough. ;)

[Lionel Ritchie]

:o I was in a bit of a rush when posting earlier, so that's probably why I made the oversight.

Not the first time that's happened to me here though so you'll probably get used to it soon enough. ;)

Don't worry about it. I did it on a political discussion in 'Current Affairs' a while back and hammered some guy who I thought had just confessed to being a neo-nazi :D

[Wolfie]

Regarding having a similar level of players to us, that is Cymro a load of old nonsense and you know it.

Finnan - a champions league winner and arguably one of the best right backs in the world. Recognised as such by his fellow professionals as he is a regular in the Premiership team of the season.
Given - one of the best Premiership keepers for over a decade. Again possibly one of the best in the world in his position and also a regular member of the team of the season (more so than any other goalkeeper in Premiership history if memory serves me correctly).
Robbie Keane - commanded tens of millions of pounds in transfer fees from top clubs all over Europe before he was 22, keeps an England International out of the first team at Spurs.
Damien Duff - won the Premiership twice. Until recently one of the most highly rated wingers in the Premiership until struggling with injury problems recently however can still turn on the style on his day and would stroll into the Scotland team on one leg (McGeady would even get his game for them).
Richard Dunne - Man City player of the season a record 3 times in a row ahead of Shaun Wright Phillips a few seasons ago another full English International.
Kevin Doyle - unarguably one of the best young players in probably the strongest league in the world at present. A nominee for young player of the season even after a long period of abscence through injury.
McShane - one of the most sought after young players outside the Premiership

Scotland
Shaun Maloney - Average (at best) Villa player.
Barry Ferguson - Blackburn reject nowhere near as good as any of our midfielders (even young Stephen Ireland).
Darren Fletcher - United part time player, atrocious. As I said similar to JOS and anyone that thinks we need him in our team needs serious help.
Kenny Miller - Average Championship striker.
Kris Boyd - Decent SPL striker, doubt he has the pace to make it in a more competitive league. Would get a place on our bench.

Cyrmo give it up if you are seriously suggesting Scotland have better or even as good individual players as us then you have a serious bias against the Republic team. Any neutral with a clue about football would struggle to find more than 2 players in their team that are of better quality than one of our players in the same position.

On an individual basis I'd certainly rate the Irish players over the vast maority of their opposite number.

However, the "Team ethhic" is an important element in comparing the merits of the current Irish and Scottish teams.

Scotland have certainly functioned as a cohesive team - something that the Irish are only showing signs of achieving for the first time in many months (Please God let it be true for September).

Total commitment and a "better than the sum of its parts" aspect to a team can cover a multitude.

There was a certain aloofness and misplaced arrogance about some of the Irish players that could not be levelled at the Scots. However, hopefully this has been eradicated following the humbling results in Cyprus and near catastrophe in San Marino.

Everything is hinging on the Eastern games in September. Without being too melodramatic - this team are at a crossroads. Not only for our chances of qualification but in relation to how this team develops. Will the ship continue to steady or are we heading for more rocky waters?

[Stuttgart88]

Without being too melodramatic - this team are at a crossroads. Not only for our chances of qualification but in relation to how this team develops. Will the ship continue to steady or are we heading for more rocky waters?Fair point. I contended that Kerr's team was at a crossroads traveling to Israel. They came back having taken a wrong turn and we're really only getting back to where we started.

[youngirish]

look, its pretty simple. Neither the Irish team nor the Scots are good teams. YoungIrish, your posts are a bit embarrassing really.

Embarrassing but you're generally agreeing with all my points (we had a good group of players in the 80's, few of the Scotland team are better than our first team players since you claim two of their apparently best players probably wouldn't even get a game for us, ancient qualifying history counts for nothing, both teams are poor). Seriously there is a very high percentage of slow learners on this board. I'm retiring you can't win with some of these muppets even when they agree with you?????????

SkStu if you actually read Cyrmo's posts (if you can read the big words) its obvious he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about so now when he's being pulled up on foolish statements he starts making things up to back his silly claims (apparently I said we had the best team in the world in the Charlton era and McShane was better than anything Scotalnd had - not true I highlighted his potential and some Scotland players that he mentioned complete lack of potential). Now after slagging McShane and getting some feedback from other posters that he's actually quite good it becomes glaringly obvious he remarked on him without knowing anything about him and is backtracking trying to cover his tracks.

Some sensible people have actually remarked on this matter and they whatever the muppets tend to say agree with my main point that we have better (far better) individual players than the Scots and a similar quality of a team as a whole which was my original main points so I'll leave it at that.

Anyway tbh I can't be bothered as I said I'm wasting my time reading such trash, it hurts my head to scowl through it.

[RogerMilla]

There was a certain aloofness and misplaced arrogance about some of the Irish players that could not be levelled at the Scots. However, hopefully this has been eradicated following the humbling results in Cyprus and near catastrophe in San Marino.

Everything is hinging on the Eastern games in September. Without being too melodramatic - this team are at a crossroads. Not only for our chances of qualification but in relation to how this team develops. Will the ship continue to steady or are we heading for more rocky waters?

i couldnt have put it any better , results on the road will give this team the self-belief to beat the germans in a full house in croker and challenge for qualification, we badly need to do well out there. two poor games and we are in a worse state than after san marino.

[RogerMilla]

Embarrassing
very high percentage of slow learners on this board
these muppets

(if you can read the big words)
its obvious he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about
foolish statements
silly claims
trash, it hurts my head to scowl through it.


young irish , your posts are well out of order , if someone doesnt agree with you all you can do is make childish insults. Any point you thought you had has been negated by the comments above.