Damien Duff

[pineapple stu]

Kildare absolutely was a gap. One of the most populous counties in Ireland without a senior side.

If you don't want to take Fingal, then what about Monaghan or Kilkenny? Wexford have hardly done great things since joining the league. Tralee's experience was a disaster. All effectively franchises. None of that backs up your point.

And novelty? Come off it. The LoI was relaunched and rebranded in 2007. Nothing happened. Novelty is a nothing argument. It also wears off quickly.

As for an alternative solution - I have suggested the FAI increase prize money (while acknowledging they're broke at the moment). I have suggested clubs put better long-term strategic planning in place to avoid Shels/Dundalk-style wasting of funds with nothing to show. I have suggested a proper pyramid system to help encourage new clubs to push themselves - extending the pyramid has churned up the lower leagues in England and Scotland in recent years, which is good.

But you seem to think there's a quick fix. There's not.

[ifk101]

Merging clubs - third policeman is suggesting merging (say) Bohs/Shels, Pat's/Rovers, Dundalk/Drogheda will significantly improve the LoI.

Ok. Obviously a non-runner for anyone with a vested interest in established clubs (Ireland or elsewhere). Not sure what the example of merged clubs in Sweden is. Östersund, maybe? But that was the equivalent of junior clubs joining forces in a city covered in snow and darkness half the year. Not a (sustainable) success story either.

[Stuttgart88]

The biggest thing we can learn from Sweden is probably the municipal support for sport there. Ireland doesn't understand the value to society of what economists call public goods (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good_(economics))

Basically we know the price of everything, the value of nothing.

[Real ale Madrid]

Using a country that didn't re-align and merge its tops clubs as an example of same when discussing the LOI is new departure for me I must say.

"But it worked in Sweden" - what worked in Sweden? I am 100% confused

[third policeman]

Kildare absolutely was a gap. One of the most populous counties in Ireland without a senior side.

If you don't want to take Fingal, then what about Monaghan or Kilkenny? Wexford have hardly done great things since joining the league. Tralee's experience was a disaster. All effectively franchises. None of that backs up your point.

And novelty? Come off it. The LoI was relaunched and rebranded in 2007. Nothing happened. Novelty is a nothing argument. It also wears off quickly.

As for an alternative solution - I have suggested the FAI increase prize money (while acknowledging they're broke at the moment). I have suggested clubs put better long-term strategic planning in place to avoid Shels/Dundalk-style wasting of funds with nothing to show. I have suggested a proper pyramid system to help encourage new clubs to push themselves - extending the pyramid has churned up the lower leagues in England and Scotland in recent years, which is good.

But you seem to think there's a quick fix. There's not.

I can’t see that working to be honest. It’s all sensible stuff but predicated on the FAI being able to make it happen.

I accept that the merger/ franchise/ start again option is never going to happen, so we might as well both get back to facing reality and living in an imperfect world.

Thanks for the argument.

[pineapple stu]

It's definitely predicated on the FAI being able to make it happen. That's what they're the governing body of football for, though. Bohbourne isn't going anywhere without more general LoI support from the FAI either.

The comments from ifk/RAM/Stutts are interesting too - not just on the success of mergers, but also the municipal involvement. OK, a lot of clubs here have rent-free or peppercorn rent deals on their grounds, but that's about it in terms of support. It's much more active elsewhere afaik.

[ifk101]

The biggest thing we can learn from Sweden is probably the municipal support for sport there. Ireland doesn't understand the value to society of what economists call public goods (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good_(economics))

Basically we know the price of everything, the value of nothing.

I remember your good post about this previously.

But would add there is a different taxation system + governance in Sweden, there is a local tax levy so Swedish municipalities probably have more financial muscle? And then, the Swedish leaning is more socialist so the concept of public good is more digestible/ understood perhaps.

I think that there isn't really an alternative to football as a summer sport in Sweden has relevance. There's no GAA/ rugby comparable. And added to that, traditional football cities (places likes Malmö, Norrköping, Helsingborg, Borås) do not really have competition from other sports so arguably easier to draw on municipality support. For example, football is really the only show in town when it comes to Malmö. There is an ice hockey team but that's an "imported" sport and doesn't have the tradition of football. There are Malmö teams in the lower divisions of the pyramid system but they are all basically supports to the city's main team in terms of fanbases.

There would be understandable opposition to this, but would mention stadium sharing. The three main teams in Gothenburg play out of the same stadium, 2 teams in Stockholm.

[pineapple stu]

Well on stadium sharing, that's where Bohs/Shels are going anyway.

I had thought there were more mergers in Sweden too - though I wonder was third policeman (as well as myself) thinking of FC Copenhagen instead? Obviously Danish, not Swedish, but similar enough. B1903 were one of the top teams at the time, but KB had dropped down to the second tier, if not the third tier. There's also been mergers in Luxembourg - F91 Dudelange are the best example, but that was a second tier team absorbing two third tier teams, so again not comparable to Bohbourne. (But it is comparable to the example I gave of merging Mullingar Town and Mullingar Athletic, but then you need a pathway for that new team to rise through the leagues if the merger is to make any sense)

[ifk101]

Well on stadium sharing, that's where Bohs/Shels are going anyway.

Sure, but long process and not there yet. Mention of Pats/ Rovers sharing in the past too that was quickly shot down?


I had thought there were more mergers in Sweden too - though I wonder was third policeman (as well as myself) thinking of FC Copenhagen instead? Obviously Danish, not Swedish, but similar enough. B1903 were one of the top teams at the time, but KB had dropped down to the second tier, if not the third tier. There's also been mergers in Luxembourg - F91 Dudelange are the best example, but that was a second tier team absorbing two third tier teams, so again not comparable to Bohbourne. (But it is comparable to the example I gave of merging Mullingar Town and Mullingar Athletic, but then you need a pathway for that new team to rise through the leagues if the merger is to make any sense)

Not really up to speed on the Danish club scene, but yes Copenhagen is the merger of note. Get the sense there is still a strong distaste towards FCK because of this, not just in Denmark but across Scandinavia. There are mergers in Sweden, but not among "traditional powers". Know of two lower level clubs that merged some time back but previous club members broke away and restarted the individual teams at the bottom of the pyramid system - so no love for merging in Sweden.

[pineapple stu]

Sure, but long process and not there yet. Mention of Pats/ Rovers sharing in the past too that was quickly shot down?
Yep, but I think the Bohs/Shels thing is more likely to happen. There's a definite timeline (https://www.the42.ie/dalymount-park-redevelopment-to-progress-following-announcement-of-government-grant-5404799-Apr2021/) (2025 for both to be playing in a redeveloped Dalymount), and there was a first drawdown of funds (€1m this year) which makes it far more tangible than the Rovers/Pat's groundshare ever was.

[Diggs246]

I cant see the Swedish stuff anywhere
I've no idea where I got that from?

its seems these mergers happen at clubs the whole time, but apologies Sweden is not on the list
List of football club mergers - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_club_mergers#Croatian_clubs)

[third policeman]

I cant see the Swedish stuff anywhere
I've no idea where I got that from?

its seems these mergers happen at clubs the whole time, but apologies Sweden is not on the list
List of football club mergers - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_club_mergers#Croatian_clubs)

And sorry for basing a large part of my argument on it when I didn’t check it out. Even if it didn’t happen in Sweden still think it’s a decent model given where we are and need to be, but enough of that one ……

[third policeman]

I cant see the Swedish stuff anywhere
I've no idea where I got that from?

its seems these mergers happen at clubs the whole time, but apologies Sweden is not on the list
List of football club mergers - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_club_mergers#Croatian_clubs)

And sorry for basing a large part of my argument on it when I didn’t check it out. Even if it didn’t happen in Sweden still think it’s a decent model given where we are and need to be, but enough of that one ……

[Stuttgart88]

I think in many areas in life I think it's fair to say we should be more like Sweden :)

Pat Walker gave a great talk at Birkbeck College years ago when I was involved in their Sports Business faculty. I think there was a thread on it here way back "Debate on Youth Dev...". Pat is a Carlow-man, ex-Boez, who made a post-LOI name for himself as player and then manager in Sweden, and whose kids became footballers and one became a media star. Really engaging fella, great life story and a great talk...

[tetsujin1979]

I think in many areas in life I think it's fair to say we should be more like Sweden :)

Pat Walker gave a great talk at Birkbeck College years ago when I was involved in their Sports Business faculty. I think there was a thread on it here way back "Debate on Youth Dev...". Pat is a Carlow-man, ex-Boez, who made a post-LOI name for himself as player and then manager in Sweden, and whose kids became footballers and one became a media star. Really engaging fella, great life story and a great talk...
This thread: https://foot.ie/threads/174697-Debate-Future-of-Youth-Development-in-Irish-Football

[osarusan]

A Celtic League or Irish-based EPL side will sort it all out.

[JR89]

All this talk about clubs joining together and the news this morning is that Bray and Cabinteely have held talks about a possible merger.

[nigel-harps1954]

Actually one failed experiment with merger / agglomeration around a population centre proves nothing. There is a difference between a necessary and a sufficient condition. Catchment and commercial sustainability might not always be sufficient, but it is always fundamentally necessary. As someone said it worked in Sweden and it’s the reason why Denmark, Holland, and Belgium can support a decent professional league. How on earth can the Dublin conurbation sustain six football clubs and Belfast 5? Gothenburg, Rotterdam, Copenhagen, Malmö, Brussels, Antwerp, Amsterdam support one or two clubs each. The idea that the only people who support football are people going to LOI games is absolute nonsense. How many Irish people follow Premier League teams or Celtic? I’d rather we had a league and a product that capitalised on the existing and latent support base for soccer. How many people who watch Ireland games go and watch LOI games - 10%?

With a bit of goodwill and imagination we could retain the expertise and experience that’s embedded in the LOI but harness it to develop something that’s better for everyone. It’s frankly embarrassing that we think getting a team into the group stage of The Europa League is equivalent to winning the World Cup.

And for the record when I lived in Dublin I was a regular attendee at LOI games supporting Rovers. It was a barely one step up from English non-league football. The product is not good enough and will never improve without very fundamental change.

This post sums up quite a lot for me.

One failed experiment proves more than any alternative that has been provided. And it's quite a few examples that have been given. It's only Dublin that has a few teams within a single population centre. Everyone else generally represents a much larger area.

Many other countries with similar populations maintain a higher standard league for three main reasons. Facilities, funding and support. Each of the three is lacking in Ireland, and regularly held as a criticism of the league by people who don't attend the league, helping to underfund clubs which in turn curtails investment in facilities.

In terms of attendance, ~30,000 people would be seen as regular attendees of LOI in Ireland on average, or if you must, ~15,000 per game week. It's a long way from being the worst in European football, but always has room for improvement.

Getting to the group stage of Europa League is pretty much the equivalent of winning the world cup for a LOI side. A few million euro in the bank is unprecedented stuff for the majority of sides. Just because it's a drop in the ocean to top European sides, doesn't mean it's still a massive achievement for a smaller league. The LOI isn't alone in this regard.

And the standard isn't good, we know and recognise that ourselves, but maintaining a league equal in standard to League One in England, as suggested by several managers and players who have been involved in both, with a fraction of the budgets and facilities of clubs in League One, shows there's a hell of a lot of potential in football here if people were to get behind it.

[Snapshot]

Cool to see Damien Duff take on the Shelbourne job. We really need some options for future Ireland managers. I suspect it would take a lot for him to ever consider working for the FAI again, but never say never. Best of luck to him.

https://www.the42.ie/damien-duff-shelbourne-5590678-Nov2021/
Future Ireland manager? Can someone please explain Duff's big issue with the FAI? He said he'd swim the Irish Sea to work at his beloved Celtic but soon returned to embrace the great Stephen Kenny vision. Then he walks again, apparently because of the silly Videogate spat. Now he's vowed to "give his life" to Shelbourne which I welcome in the hope it curtails his turgid, monotone punditry. Duff's senior management journey is beginning to resemble that of his mentor Brian Kerr - all tip and no iceberg.

[TonyD]

This post sums up quite a lot for me.

One failed experiment proves more than any alternative that has been provided. And it's quite a few examples that have been given. It's only Dublin that has a few teams within a single population centre. Everyone else generally represents a much larger area.

Many other countries with similar populations maintain a higher standard league for three main reasons. Facilities, funding and support. Each of the three is lacking in Ireland, and regularly held as a criticism of the league by people who don't attend the league, helping to underfund clubs which in turn curtails investment in facilities.

In terms of attendance, ~30,000 people would be seen as regular attendees of LOI in Ireland on average, or if you must, ~15,000 per game week. It's a long way from being the worst in European football, but always has room for improvement.

Getting to the group stage of Europa League is pretty much the equivalent of winning the world cup for a LOI side. A few million euro in the bank is unprecedented stuff for the majority of sides. Just because it's a drop in the ocean to top European sides, doesn't mean it's still a massive achievement for a smaller league. The LOI isn't alone in this regard.

And the standard isn't good, we know and recognise that ourselves, but maintaining a league equal in standard to League One in England, as suggested by several managers and players who have been involved in both, with a fraction of the budgets and facilities of clubs in League One, shows there's a hell of a lot of potential in football here if people were to get behind it.

Great response. It really annoys me to see the merger/franchise football notion bandied about when it comes to Dublin teams. Talk of merging the top 4 teams is such a nonsense. All it would do is alienate the existing support base of those clubs, to be replaced by who exactly ? You think there are 5/6000 new supporters going to come out to watch these new Frankenstein clubs every week ? Good luck with that one. And without significant support of at least that volume facilities ain’t going to improve either. So all you will have done is kill two of the strongest teams in the league.

[texidub]

I don't want to step on toes (well, not when the ref is looking anyway) but aren't many of these clubs, dearly loved by fans of course (and rightly so), legacies of when the LoI was a well supported league? Being much loved is great, having hsitory is great, but it doesn't make the club or the league viable. I'm not for sweeping them all away, but I thinkthe attachment might be overplayed.. to the point where maybe it becomes harmful to the development of the league?

[pineapple stu]

Well the four best-supported teams in the league should, by definition, be its most viable clubs. More so if they've already been around 100 years. Those would be the last clubs you'd think need merging tbh

[texidub]

Fair enough point. I come at LoI from a strange angle to more regular LoI fans. Former shams supporter from the Milltown days and if I had to pick a team now it would be rovers, BUT for the past ten years, I really only watch LoI teams in Europe. This has me thinking about the league as a whole rather than thinking about it as a fan of any particular club. So it's easy for me to downplay fans' attachments to their clubs.

BTW, I followed a link you shared to UCD match programmes yesterday (think it was on this thread.. maybe not) and I noticed a banner that said something like 'Set Your match Calendar for 2017!' Do you run that site or know who does? That banner needs changing. Small thing to fix, but at the same time I can see visitors being put off by it (and others having their negative preconceptions reinforced).

[pineapple stu]

Yes, the website is an issue alright. I've mentioned it, but I think we're effectively running off Twitter/Facebook now and the website is largely idle. I completely agree with your views on that alright.

[mark12345]

but aren't many of these clubs, dearly loved by fans of course (and rightly so), legacies of when the LoI was a well supported league?

I remember the days when it was a well-supported league. My family were Shamrock Rovers supporters and on an occasional Sunday I would be brought to Milltown to see a LOI game. I kid you not when I tell you you could not get into the ground for some games - it was so packed. Rovers v Waterford, Bohs, Cork or Shelbourne would see lines of supporters going down the street outside the turnstiles.

[Stuttgart88]

May parents tell me of how they'd go to Dalyer and Milltown in the 50s and they'd be packed. I started going in the late 70s and after a while you'd recognise all attendees' faces!

[third policeman]

May parents tell me of how they'd go to Dalyer and Milltown in the 50s and they'd be packed. I started going in the late 70s and after a while you'd recognise all attendees' faces!

I vowed to leave this one alone, but stadia are a big point. Theoretically when Dalyer and Milltown had decent capacity there was potential for growth, but the growth potential of all LOI clubs is now effectively capped by the much smaller ground capacities. If (and here I reopen the proverbial can of worms) there were mergers or restructuring, I admit it would need to include and enable massive investment in stadia. Of course the status quo lobby will say this is not going to happen, but it’s definitely not going to happen without a restructure, but it just might if any new league model was underpinned by a credible business model, and a body that wasn’t the FAI. Something more akin to the Premier League.

I take the point about Dublin clubs being the best supported etc, but if we’re ruling out mergers, at the very least we need ground shares, and a more ambitious approach to accommodating a growing spectator base.

S

[TonyD]

I vowed to leave this one alone, but stadia are a big point. Theoretically when Dalyer and Milltown had decent capacity there was potential for growth, but the growth potential of all LOI clubs is now effectively capped by the much smaller ground capacities. If (and here I reopen the proverbial can of worms) there were mergers or restructuring, I admit it would need to include and enable massive investment in stadia. Of course the status quo lobby will say this is not going to happen, but it’s definitely not going to happen without a restructure, but it just might if any new league model was underpinned by a credible business model, and a body that wasn’t the FAI. Something more akin to the Premier League.

I take the point about Dublin clubs being the best supported etc, but if we’re ruling out mergers, at the very least we need ground shares, and a more ambitious approach to accommodating a growing spectator base.

S

I suppose you’d include me as part of the “status quo” lobby (and I don’t even have any of their albums !) but I’d love to know what you ideas for restructuring are. Tinkering with the size of the league, an All Ireland league ? I’ve been seeing this debate for as long as I’ve been attending matches, and it keeps going round in circles. Merging teams I think is not going to work, for reasons set out above. Ground sharing has similar problems in my view. How many will follow Shels to Dalymount if it goes through ? Similarly, I’d imagine Pats would lose a lot of their base if they moved to Tallaght. Would these be replaced by new supporters ? I’d very much doubt it.

In truth there are no easy answers. The crux is how to make the game here more attractive to people. If people are expecting English Premier league standards, either on the field or off the field, then they are inevitably going to be disappointed. We have to sell the league as something that belongs to us, somewhere you can experience good standard live football on your doorstep. A lot of work needs to be put into community work to start to achieve this. Bohs have done great work in this regard to be fair to them, and seem to be reaping the rewards. We also need the media to be more engaged, to act like the games actually matter. There is a huge element, in my view, of, if you act like it’s important it becomes important. Then people want to attend. If we can crack the attendances issue, everything else will fall into place in my view. Whether we can do that is another question.

Oh, and by the way, Damien Duff, eh ?��

[third policeman]

I don’t think anyone is expecting to see Premier League standards in the LOI, but at the moment our teams do less well in Europe than Cyprus despite having nearly 10 times the population. I just we think we should be aiming to have a domestic league at least on a par with European countries with similar size populations, but we’re way behind. If we don’t improve the standard then we are unlikely to improve the performance of the international team by developing the talent base. That’s my concern, and frankly there are more people in Ireland interested in the international team than support the LOI.

[pineapple stu]

Well, there's a lot of Russian money in Cyprus. Probably not all of it entirely legit. Maybe not the best comparison.

But yes, the LoI can do a lot better

[JR89]

Yeah Cyprus have a lot of Russian money and are ahead of the likes of Sweden, Denmark, Turkey, and Poland. Definitely not the best comparison.

[TonyD]

That’s my concern, and frankly there are more people in Ireland interested in the international team than support the LOI.

Granted, but don’t you think you may have stumbled across a large part of the problem there ? We all want our teams to do better in Europe ( no real evidence that this would result in bigger crowds for league games btw) but one of the keys to improvement is definitely more support. If people want to concentrate exclusively on the National team, all well and good, but it’s no use crying about how bad the league is in that case.

[third policeman]

Granted, but don’t you think you may have stumbled across a large part of the problem there ? We all want our teams to do better in Europe ( no real evidence that this would result in bigger crowds for league games btw) but one of the keys to improvement is definitely more support. If people want to concentrate exclusively on the National team, all well and good, but it’s no use crying about how bad the league is in that case.

If LOI rounds were full every week what kind of improvement would we get? Marginal at best. We’d still be losing players to 3rd and 4th tier English clubs and smaller SPL clubs. There seems to a prevailing view that the LOI is about as good as it gets for this country. The level of interest in the sport and the size of our population mean it could be very different, but not without major structural change and infrastructure.

[TonyD]

If LOI rounds were full every week what kind of improvement would we get? Marginal at best. We’d still be losing players to 3rd and 4th tier English clubs and smaller SPL clubs. There seems to a prevailing view that the LOI is about as good as it gets for this country. The level of interest in the sport and the size of our population mean it could be very different, but not without major structural change and infrastructure.

Well, if grounds were full regularly then infrastructure would surely improve. And I’d love to know what this structural change is that will magically transform the league. The only suggestion I’m seeing so far is to merge four of the best supported teams in the country into two, thereby wiping out a few thousand supporters who actually go to games. I actually think we need to expand the Premier Division. If teams like Waterford and Galway were regulars in the premier it would grow the interest in those towns.

[samhaydenjr]

If LOI rounds were full every week what kind of improvement would we get? Marginal at best. We’d still be losing players to 3rd and 4th tier English clubs and smaller SPL clubs. There seems to a prevailing view that the LOI is about as good as it gets for this country. The level of interest in the sport and the size of our population mean it could be very different, but not without major structural change and infrastructure.

I've noted elsewhere on this forum that 21 members of Croatia's 2018 World Cup squad started their senior careers in the Croatian league (many spending multiple seasons there) where the average attendance is about 3000, which isn't that much higher than the LOI. So if LOI clubs were selling out regularly (particularly Rovers, Cork City, Bohemians in their new stadium and Derry in an expanded Brandywell) then I think they would be able to hang on to young talent for longer and give them the first-team football at a decent level that is so crucial for players in their late teens and early twenties and probably would be successful in keeping them away from most 3rd and 4th tier English clubs.

[third policeman]

Maybe but it’s a lot easier for Croatia to keep players in their domestic league because there is nowhere else for them to go at that stage. Unfortunately our proximity to England, and to a lesser extent Scotland, means that our younger players do have options other than developing or staying in the LOI.

[pineapple stu]

Pretty much every country is Europe has a similar statistic.

Croatia is in the EU and it is just as easy for their players to sign for top Premier League sides.

[tetsujin1979]

Isn't there a lot of Croatian players in Italy?

[pineapple stu]

Probably so, but the vast majority of Croatian players still start in their domestic league before moving abroad.

We're an anomaly in that regard. Wasn't there a recent UEFA report that had us as number one in Europe for sending under 18s abroad? That's in absolute terms; not pro-rata.

[JR89]

Well he does have a point about our proximity to England. Lads would jet off at 16 to train in a professional environment because they weren't getting it here, whereas other countries like Croatia will keep their young players at home longer because they're getting the training that's needed at home.

It's the biggest issue with Brexit that if we don't improve things big time at home and lads aren't getting the training needed in a professional environment then we'd have been better off asking FIFA to still let lads move at 16 so they would get the training needed in a professional environment.

FAI need to pull the finger out and get a full time academy up and going where the best youngesters in the country can train to the same standard as they would in a UK academy. Unfortunately LOI clubs will never be able to offer that without massive investment so the FAI need to step up and do something. FFS the IFA have a full time academy for lads between the ages of 14 - 16 that was funded by Uefa I think to get it up and running.

[pineapple stu]

i think we need to stop seeing Brexit as a bad thing and see it as an opportunity to be honest. The league would be much better off if we could keep top players until the were 21, not 16. The transfer fees clubs could demand for them could be much bigger too, again to our benefit.

There's a hell of a lot of work to be done, and probably in the short term, Brexit is going to be damaging. But really if we're honest, it's not Brexit that's damaging for us, but our own complete failure to develop any sort of functioning professional domestic football setup. All Brexit has done is highlight that for us.

[JR89]

i think we need to stop seeing Brexit as a bad thing and see it as an opportunity to be honest. The league would be much better off if we could keep top players until the were 21, not 16. The transfer fees clubs could demand for them could be much bigger too, again to our benefit.

There's a hell of a lot of work to be done, and probably in the short term, Brexit is going to be damaging. But really if we're honest, it's not Brexit that's damaging for us, but our own complete failure to develop any sort of functioning professional domestic football setup. All Brexit has done is highlight that for us.

I'm all for Brexit but it's only a benefit if the FAI start investing and raising standards here to a professional level for young players. That's without even getting into improving the senior side of the game here so young lads have somewhere to play rather than jumping on the first boat at 18 instead of 16. The best of the best will probably still be off at 18 but the league needs to improve for those that will stick around between 18 - 21.

Brexit has definitely helped highlight this on a bigger stage but everything that has gone on with the national team has helped too. Think it was after the draw with Azerbaijan that people were talking about youth development and us being one of four nations that hasn't got a full time employee in an academy at club level. The others being Andorra, Northern Ireland, and Luxembourg but the IFA and Luxembourg FA have full time academies of their own.

[pineapple stu]

Yep, for sure the fact that the FAI - 25 years after the Premier League started taking players from all parts of the world - has still done feck all to develop a proper pathway is an issue at the moment. And it's worrying for our future prospects.

Of course, the flip side is that there's a clear link between the Bosman ruling (ending the three-foreigners rule) and the decline of the Irish national team's fortunes. It wasn't immediate - clubs needed time to find foreigners, and we still had more than our fair share of players in the youth structure over there anyway. But since the late 90s, there's been a consistent decline in the number of Irish players in the Premier League, and it's effectively what's led us to the current state where we're losing to Luxembourg and drawing with Azerbaijan. (There's other factors that influence those specific results of course - Robinson not getting a vaccine, Kenny maybe not being the person to get the most out of the national team, etc, but we were clearly on a steady decline for years beforehand and it didn't take much to turn a 1-0 win over Gibraltar or draws in Georgia into bad defeats)

[osarusan]

i think we need to stop seeing Brexit as a bad thing and see it as an opportunity to be honest. The league would be much better off if we could keep top players until the were 21, not 16. The transfer fees clubs could demand for them could be much bigger too, again to our benefit.

There's a hell of a lot of work to be done, and probably in the short term, Brexit is going to be damaging. But really if we're honest, it's not Brexit that's damaging for us, but our own complete failure to develop any sort of functioning professional domestic football setup. All Brexit has done is highlight that for us.
Players staying until 21 would be good for the league, but would it be good for the players?

I know we lament the fact that some our best players head off at 16 to learn hoof ball at Hull or wherever, but I would imagine they are still receiving better training than if they’d stayed at home.

The chances of getting to the point where it is better for both the LOI and the player is pretty remote I would say.

[pineapple stu]

I think there's a study which has shown it's generally worse for a player's development to leave home so early. Not sure where I saw that, so happily retracted if invented, but that'd be one factor.

It'd surely be better for the majority who don't make it in England to have stayed here and finished an education, and they have to be considered too.

The LoI is a long way away from being of the required standard, sure. But why can most other leagues manage it? Why are we such an anomaly?

[Stuttgart88]

Yer man Jonathan Hill is now active on Twitter. Seems like a very level headed guy. Surely it can't have gone unnoticed by him just how cool the Lux stadium is? Every big town in Ireland should have something like this, and a running track adjacent.

[JR89]

Yer man Jonathan Hill is now active on Twitter. Seems like a very level headed guy. Surely it can't have gone unnoticed by him just how cool the Lux stadium is? Every big town in Ireland should have something like this, and a running track adjacent.

Just need to find €80m down the back of the sofa now to build all these.

[Fixer82]

Yer man Jonathan Hill is now active on Twitter. Seems like a very level headed guy. Surely it can't have gone unnoticed by him just how cool the Lux stadium is? Every big town in Ireland should have something like this, and a running track adjacent.

Would’ve been great if they didn’t fine that girl €3k for running up to Ronaldo

[seanfhear]

Just need to find €80m down the back of the sofa now to build all these.
Everyone should have a Golden Circle !

[seanfhear]

Would’ve been great if they didn’t fine that girl €3k for running up to Ronaldo
Will it ever be paid ?