Damien Duff

[geysir]

Duff said he'd swim over the Irish sea to coach at Celtic, who was the last Irish footballer to say he'd swim across the Irish sea in order to play football?

[nigel-harps1954]

So much for his commitment to developing Irish football that he so passionately spoke about previously..

He's a spoofer as a coach, doing more harm than good to 14 year old kids with the way he pushes them and roars at them from the sideline.

[tetsujin1979]

Duff has accepted a role in the Celtic Academy and will coach their U20 side
He was in the director's box at their Europa League game during the week

[Paddy Garcia]

Appointed reserve team coach.

[tetsujin1979]

has been appointed as first team coach under Neil Lennon
Interviewed on Celtic's YouTube channel
Gm9RcAlgh8M

[irishfan86]

Cool to see Damien Duff take on the Shelbourne job. We really need some options for future Ireland managers. I suspect it would take a lot for him to ever consider working for the FAI again, but never say never. Best of luck to him.

https://www.the42.ie/damien-duff-shelbourne-5590678-Nov2021/

[paul_oshea]

"Duff turned down the job last Friday but after a weekend of soul searching - and some tugging at the heart strings from his son Woody - he changed his mind and decided to take on the role."

He likes to change his mind a lot

"The former Republic of Ireland, Chelsea, Blackburn and Fulham winger has vowed to "give my life" to his players as he prepares for his first job in senior management."

I'll give my life but next week I might change my mind

[Diggs246]

Cool to see Damien Duff take on the Shelbourne job. We really need some options for future Ireland managers. I suspect it would take a lot for him to ever consider working for the FAI again, but never say never. Best of luck to him.

https://www.the42.ie/damien-duff-shelbourne-5590678-Nov2021/

I'm not sure he has done anything to merit mention as our manager, the opposite of anything. He quit the current management team without explanation
Great player......but that is it.

[irishfan86]

Not suggesting Duff is ready at this moment in time. More like I'm happy he's taking on a senior job, and if he does well, that could give us an option down the line.

[kennedmc]

I suspect it would take a lot for him to ever consider working for the FAI again, but never say never. Best of luck to him.

https://www.the42.ie/damien-duff-shelbourne-5590678-Nov2021/

Why did the FAI send him across to Guantanamo bay for questioning or something?!

Duff (the manager =/coach) comes across as an idiot in my opinion.

[third policeman]

Not suggesting Duff is ready at this moment in time. More like I'm happy he's taking on a senior job, and if he does well, that could give us an option down the line.

Not really a senior job with Shelbourne, great old club and all that, but this is the reason why our domestic football and international football is blighted. It’s spread too thin to be commercially and competitively successful. People ask why can’t we emulate Scandinavia or other small European countries with viable leagues? It’s because historically our clubs are on top of each other and don’t have a sustainable fan base from which to grow. It’s a Micky mouse league, that is at best a nursery from which to export talent. I know this is anathema to the League of Ireland lobby but it needs completely rethinking, otherwise we are never going to maximise the talent we have by developing players in a viable domestic league.

[geysir]

People who have worked alongside him have spoken highly of Duff, at least here we have him in a senior coaching job where whatever he has will be for all to see.

[liamoo11]

People who have worked alongside him have spoken highly of Duff, at least here we have him in a senior coaching job where whatever he has will be for all to see.

Best of luck to him. Has Ian Morris another job lined up , he wascalso a very cultured footballer in his day

[osarusan]

It’s a Micky mouse league, that is at best a nursery from which to export talent. I know this is anathema to the League of Ireland lobby but it needs completely rethinking, otherwise we are never going to maximise the talent we have by developing players in a viable domestic league.
Enlighten us regarding the 'rethinking' of the LOI.

[Diggs246]

The first step is very serious investment, 2nd step the league most be fully professional, which will mean bringing in league 1 and 2 players and guys from main land Europe at first, that isn't ideal but we are were we are. 3rd step rte or tv3 have to show live matches every week. 4th step stadia. No stadium, no Premier league. Capacity tbd. Again millions is needed and also the will to do it. Im not sure if FIFA would allow it but why not take the league off the FAI and have proper administrators running it, with an independent budget from the state.

[pineapple stu]

There's no investment on the way. The FAI is (criminally) broke and anyways, "very serious investment" doesn't come out of the blue.

Certainly prize money should be higher (so it's hardly "completely rethinking" the league) , but Irish football as a whole has made that bed and we have to lie in it. That includes those who support the national team but not the LoI, who usually don't recognise the relationship between the two.

The first step is for people to support the league by either going to games, subscribing on LOITV, or some other means of support.

[third policeman]

Enlighten us regarding the 'rethinking' of the LOI.

It’s whether there’s an appetite for it, but it would probably mean radically configuring the League around viable population centres. Merging clubs and an All Ireland structure. This would involve trampling all over heritage, history and cherished loyalties etc, but the LOI and Irish League has a pretty tiny following in all honesty. It’s a question of whether we run the game in the interests of its current clubs and support base or we want something better. By better I mean, higher quality football, more competitive, commercially sustainable and producing and keeping more talented players for the international team(s).
It won’t happen because turkeys don’t vote for Christmas.

[pineapple stu]

So you're going to take the only people who are interested in football (ie those running the clubs), screw them all over (by merging them into new super clubs) and hope that somehow this will mean lots of other people get involved?

There's a fairly large flaw in that logic...

What happened at Kildare County and Sporting Fingal should be enough to argue that population centres alone don't necessarily equate to a successful football club.

[Olé Olé]

Rumours circulating of Jack Byrne to Shels. Not sure how solid those are. But that would be interesting.

[Diggs246]

So you're going to take the only people who are interested in football (ie those running the clubs), screw them all over (by merging them into new super clubs) and hope that somehow this will mean lots of other people get involved?

There's a fairly large flaw in that logic...

What happened at Kildare County and Sporting Fingal should be enough to argue that population centres alone don't necessarily equate to a successful football club.


but that is exactly what they did in Sweden it turns out.
They merged rival even enemy clubs and now they have a nice pro league. Im not saying follow that model, but don't knock it in the head. We cant just leave it as it is, surely we all agreed on that ?
Your ideas are helpful but nowhere near enough.

[pineapple stu]

I think the key thing that's needed is a proper pyramid. Right now, there's no incentive at all for, say, Navan Town to grow. That's the single biggest issue we have*. If you give clubs a reason to push themselves, then the structure across the country will improve.

We barely have any senior clubs as it is - we struggle to fill the First Division for example - so merging clubs and giving us even fewer can hardly help the bigger picture.


* - The next is people throwing out random suggestions about rethinking the league while not actually actively supporting it.

[tetsujin1979]

Rumours circulating of Jack Byrne to Shels. Not sure how solid those are. But that would be interesting.
Was linked with a move to MLS a few weeks ago? Can Shels really afford to pay him more than a club in the States?

[Diggs246]

I think the key thing that's needed is a proper pyramid. Right now, there's no incentive at all for, say, Navan Town to grow. That's the single biggest issue we have*. If you give clubs a reason to push themselves, then the structure across the country will improve.

We barely have any senior clubs as it is - we struggle to fill the First Division for example - so merging clubs and giving us even fewer can hardly help the bigger picture.


* - The next is people throwing out random suggestions about rethinking the league while not actually actively supporting it.

Look at the LOI as a product. the average person in Ireland doesn't give a rats ass about it.

Because the product that has been presented and sold to the average person isn't palatable.

You are thinking as a football man, which is fair enough. but just the lads on foot.ie and ybig.ie aren't going to better any parsnips.

We have 5 million people in Ireland, we are one of the richest countries on earth we can have a fully pro league? we just need an insane amount of investment via the state or EU and or private funding

It will take years as well ! its far from ideal I know

[Diggs246]

Was linked with a move to MLS a few weeks ago? Can Shels really afford to pay him more than a club in the States?


No they cant! but I do wonder is he a home bird and may never be happy aboard, I don't know

[pineapple stu]

Look at the LOI as a product. the average person in Ireland doesn't give a rats ass about it.

Because the product that has been presented and sold to the average person isn't palatable.

You are thinking as a football man, which is fair enough. but just the lads on foot.ie and ybig.ie aren't going to better any parsnips.

We have 5 million people in Ireland, we are one of the richest countries on earth we can have a fully pro league? we just need an insane amount of investment via the state or EU and or private funding

It will take years as well ! its far from ideal I know

I agree with that. But it doesn't mean your suggestion would work.

"We just need an insane amount of investment via the state or EU and or private funding" - that's simply not going to happen.

In the meantime, if you're interested in the league or Irish football in general, put your money where your mouth is. If enough people did that, growth would follow.

[Stuttgart88]

4 Ps

Price
Place
Product
Promotion

Page 1 of any Marketing textbook, but as true as anything in life.

[Diggs246]

I agree with that. But it doesn't mean your suggestion would work.

"We just need an insane amount of investment via the state or EU and or private funding" - that's simply not going to happen.

In the meantime, if you're interested in the league or Irish football in general, put your money where your mouth is. If enough people did that, growth would follow.

The funding available from the EU isn't enough currently, but its there ( 100s of 1000s as posed to millions that is really needed)

https://clustercollaboration.eu/sites/default/files/profile-article/guide_on_eu_funding_for_sports_industry_2014_-2020_.pdf

Look who give the "forward" on this one !!
https://www.hoo.hr/images/izdavastvo/ostalo/funding-for-sports-in-the-european-union.pdf (https://www.hoo.hr/images/izdavastvo/ostalo/funding-for-sports-in-the-european-union.pdf)

Also domestically. the state gave 150,000 to Wesley college to build a hockey pitch! not because they deserved it but their tender was professionally completed to the required standards

[pineapple stu]

150k isn't going to advance the league in fairness. Plus, the State recently allocated €4m to Harps alone for their new ground.

But capital investment and current investment are different things. A new stadium won't pay wages or sign players.

I'll say it again - if you're interested in the league or Irish football in general, put your money where your mouth is. If enough people did that, growth would follow.

[Diggs246]

150k isn't going to advance the league in fairness. Plus, the State recently allocated €4m to Harps alone for their new ground.

That was just an example.... its probably close to the league winners price money!

RE 4m for harps now your talking! yes it capital investment and yes I believe that will help fill the stands if his attractive to go to

But capital investment and current investment are different things. A new stadium won't pay wages or sign players.

Correct both is needed

I'll say it again - if you're interested in the league or Irish football in general, put your money where your mouth is. If enough people did that, growth would follow.

but enough people wont do that if the product stays as is

[Diggs246]

sorry I made a balls of the post!

[pineapple stu]

but enough people wont do that if the product stays as is
Stop absolving yourself of blame here.

[Diggs246]

Stop absolving yourself of blame here.


I'm not... I don't go to the matches and I should and actually i will, I used to love going to UCD games
but please join me on planet earth, you must know what's needed is so much bigger then that

[pineapple stu]

Of course more is needed - but merging clubs won't help when there aren't any. The clubs have access to funding. But funding or a new stadium won't pay for wages. Focusing on population centres has already failed as shown.

I think those who go to games (as osarusan has also hinted at) get quite frustrated at ill-thought-through suggestions being thrown out by people who don't actually support the league first, or bland comments like "it needs completely rethinking" (not your comment I know). Throw in the AIL suggestion and you're close to a bull**** bingo card.

But you did say "Please join me on planet earth", and that doesn't make sense when you earlier post "we just need an insane amount of investment via the state or EU and or private funding".

Anyways, in the meantime, to show no hard feelings (cos we're all on the same side here!) have a free UCD programme (http://www.ucdsoccer.com/airtricity-league/programme). :)

(Also - this probably doesn't have anything to do with Duffer any more...)

[kennedmc]

Of course more is needed - but merging clubs won't help when there aren't any. The clubs have access to funding. But funding or a new stadium won't pay for wages. Focusing on population centres has already failed as shown.

I think those who go to games (as osarusan has also hinted at) get quite frustrated at ill-thought-through suggestions being thrown out by people who don't actually support the league first, or bland comments like "it needs completely rethinking" (not your comment I know). Throw in the AIL suggestion and you're close to a bull**** bingo card.

But you did say "Please join me on planet earth", and that doesn't make sense when you earlier post "we just need an insane amount of investment via the state or EU and or private funding".

Anyways, in the meantime, to show no hard feelings (cos we're all on the same side here!) have a free UCD programme (http://www.ucdsoccer.com/airtricity-league/programme). :)

(Also - this probably doesn't have anything to do with Duffer any more...)

AIL - All Ireland league? If so I would have thought this would be a very good thing for the league. 2 divisions.

What are your thoughts on it? (I see the Dutch and Belgium leagues are trying to join up)

[NeverFeltBetter]

I think Stu is referring to how it's become old hat as an idea that people have a tendency to throw it out as a self-evident cure of all ills of Irish football without considering the myriad of problems that would come with its attempted implementation and possible execution.

[third policeman]

Enlighten us regarding the 'rethinking' of the LOI.


AIL - All Ireland league? If so I would have thought this would be a very good thing for the league. 2 divisions.

What are your thoughts on it? (I see the Dutch and Belgium leagues are trying to join up)

Actually one failed experiment with merger / agglomeration around a population centre proves nothing. There is a difference between a necessary and a sufficient condition. Catchment and commercial sustainability might not always be sufficient, but it is always fundamentally necessary. As someone said it worked in Sweden and it’s the reason why Denmark, Holland, and Belgium can support a decent professional league. How on earth can the Dublin conurbation sustain six football clubs and Belfast 5? Gothenburg, Rotterdam, Copenhagen, Malmö, Brussels, Antwerp, Amsterdam support one or two clubs each. The idea that the only people who support football are people going to LOI games is absolute nonsense. How many Irish people follow Premier League teams or Celtic? I’d rather we had a league and a product that capitalised on the existing and latent support base for soccer. How many people who watch Ireland games go and watch LOI games - 10%?

With a bit of goodwill and imagination we could retain the expertise and experience that’s embedded in the LOI but harness it to develop something that’s better for everyone. It’s frankly embarrassing that we think getting a team into the group stage of The Europa League is equivalent to winning the World Cup.

And for the record when I lived in Dublin I was a regular attendee at LOI games supporting Rovers. It was a barely one step up from English non-league football. The product is not good enough and will never improve without very fundamental change.

[pineapple stu]

The AIL is a dead duck really - I've repeatedly said here I'm in favour of it (for political reasons), but it wouldn't actually improve the product that much by adding Linfield/Crues to the LoI. The Setanta Cup kind of showed that. And the IL clubs have repeatedly shown they're happy in their own league, and given the cluster**** that is the LoI, I can't really blame them.

The problem with saying "Let's do what Sweden did" is that the LoI's problems are fairly unique in Europe. Our structure is bat**** crazy. Separate seasons for senior/intermediate football. No pyramid. The Tralee Dynamoes experience of joining the A Championship. Standalone district leagues for almost every county for example. These are big problems which actively stop clubs with potential from growing. That's the single biggest issue we have - there's nothing there to encourage clubs to really improve. The amount of big fish in small ponds we have is remarkable.

Merging Premier Division clubs to create Bohbourne and Shamrock Athletic isn't going to address that issue - in fact, it fundamentally misses the point of what's wrong with the game here. And "With a bit of goodwill and imagination we could retain the expertise and experience that’s embedded in the LOI but harness it to develop something that’s better for everyone" is just vaguely meaningless unfortunately. Also, Dublin is one-third of the country by population - one-third of the league teams seems reasonable. A proper pyramid might let, say, Tralee replace Cabo. But picking clubs and plonking them into the FD has a repeated failure rate.

I don't think anyone said "the only people who support football are people going to LOI games". But one of the best ways of supporting Irish football absolutely is to go to the games.

[third policeman]

Irish[/I] football absolutely is to go to the games.

It was said, but compelling people to go and watch a poor quality product “to support soccer” is a bit of a cheek. Why don’t the clubs do something to support soccer by thinking of radical ways to make it worth watching.

[pineapple stu]

I specifically noted why the Swedish solution wouldn't work, and why Bohbourne wasn't the answer here.

Could I ask you to read that part of my post again before asking questions I've already answered?

Also, no-one is compelling anyone to do anything. But it doesn't change the fact that one of the best ways of supporting Irish football absolutely is to go to the games.

[third policeman]

I specifically noted why the Swedish solution wouldn't work, and why Bohbourne wasn't the answer here.

Could I ask you to read that part of my post again before asking questions I've already answered?

Also, no-one is compelling anyone to do anything. But it doesn't change the fact that one of the best ways of supporting Irish football absolutely is to go to the games.

Sorry reread the posts and still can’t find an actual answer to why Swedish approach would not work. Pretty sure the obstacles, vested interests etc were all pretty much the same.

Maybe you are right that one of the best ways of supporting Irish football is to go to games, but people by and large don’t and there’s a reason for that. Simply wishing (not compelling) won’t make it happen. The product is flawed and that’s largely to do with the legacy of a flawed structure.

[pineapple stu]

It's literally there in the bit where I start 'The problem with saying "Let's do what Sweden did" is...'


...that the LoI's problems are fairly unique in Europe. Our structure is bat**** crazy. Separate seasons for senior/intermediate football. No pyramid. The Tralee Dynamoes experience of joining the A Championship. Standalone district leagues for almost every county for example. These are big problems which actively stop clubs with potential from growing. That's the single biggest issue we have - there's nothing there to encourage clubs to really improve. The amount of big fish in small ponds we have is remarkable.

Merging Premier Division clubs to create Bohbourne and Shamrock Athletic isn't going to address that issue - in fact, it fundamentally misses the point of what's wrong with the game here.

[third policeman]

Genuinely struggling to make the connection. Yeah there are a load of incongruities within the club structure that may differ from Sweden, but we’re talking about merging clubs to create a viable and sustainable league. It may not solve every problem in the game at every level, but it’s the only way we will develop a league that can compete in Europe and develop players for the national team.

[pineapple stu]

It's kind of hard to really engage in a debate if you don't actively address any of the points being made tbh.

Yes, there are issues with Irish football. I agree the standard isn't great and I've argued against LoI fans here in terms of player call-ups to the national team for example.

But I don't see how merging clubs is going to solve anything while the huge structural issues - not just the pyramid, though it's the most important one in terms of spicing up the new league and helping focus on new population areas (which was your suggestion, albeit in an unnatural way), but also prize money, TV deals, underage setups (being addressed in fairness) and so on.

You say "It may not solve every problem in the game at every level, but it’s the only way we will develop a league that can compete in Europe and develop players for the national team", but you haven't said how it will solve any problems, and it's not true that it's the only way the league will develop player for the national team because we saw, in the cash-rich 00s, that the LoI did start developing players for the national team, even with both Dundalk and Drogheda in the league. It still didn't do great, but it was improving when the (inevitable) crash happened, and it's never really recovered since.

There is merit in merging clubs, but I don't see it at the top level. The likes of, say, Mullingar Athletic and Mullingar Town would be a better bet. But without an adequate structure for them to improve up through, what's the point? That's why, for me, the structure is the most important thing at the moment, and why the Swedish example just isn't relevant here at the moment.

[third policeman]

I don’t think it will solve all the problems as I said, and to be fair you make a lot of decent points about the dysfunctional structures at every level, but I guess we’re going back to Sweden. Let’s imagine there are only two clubs in Dublin, you immediately pool the best players, and increase the potential supporter catchment. A better team playing in a better league with less local competition attracts more supporters = more revenue, which attracts more investment, improving facilities, attracting more supporters, generating even more revenue, investing in better players, improving the product and so on and so on. It’s what can happen when you start from the right place. We’re in the wrong place. Too many small clubs competing in the same geography, poor facilities, low standard of product, few spectators, inadequate revenue, little investment, viscous circle.

If there’s another way, I’d love to know what it is. I think we all want the same outcome - a better international team and Irish clubs competing (really competing) in Europe.

[pineapple stu]

But that's very idealistic. Why would you risk the biggest clubs in the league? You're genuinely risking alienating the biggest fan groups in the league for something which may or may not have any impact.

Also, if you generate say, Bohbourne and Shamrock Athletic, do you end with a stronger league? You've removed two Premier sides and you promote two First Division sides. Unless they take the Shelhemians/St Pat's Rovers players (and will they go to Galway/UCD/Treaty?), then you end up with a weaker league, not a stronger one.

Also, don't knock local competition. Derby games are big draws. Local competition is important in the LoI.

Poor facilities, low standard, few spectators, inadequate revenue, little investment - sure. But if you create Bohemians, the FAI will still be broke and people will still watch TV football and you'll still have all those problems.

[ifk101]

As someone said it worked in Sweden and it’s the reason why Denmark, Holland, and Belgium can support a decent professional league. How on earth can the Dublin conurbation sustain six football clubs and Belfast 5? Gothenburg ..... support one or two clubs each.

Gothenburg is of tradition a three team city; IFK, ÖIS and GAIS. The current "top team" in the city is another team called Häcken. Add to these four are a couple of smaller clubs in the third tier of the pyramid system. Gothenburg is about half Dublin's size.

What worked in Sweden btw? Not understanding the mentions of Sweden in the last pages.

[CraftyToePoke]

I don’t think it will solve all the problems as I said, and to be fair you make a lot of decent points about the dysfunctional structures at every level, but I guess we’re going back to Sweden. Let’s imagine there are only two clubs in Dublin, you immediately pool the best players, and increase the potential supporter catchment. A better team playing in a better league with less local competition attracts more supporters

But who do they play ?
All the population center clubs on the other coast take it in turns to completely implode, From Derry to Waterford and all between them at regular intervals. There is no overall fix potential in this proposal & it punishes clubs who have demonstrated durability at LOI level over the long haul, we need more of those, not less.

[third policeman]

The Dublin scenario is for instance not a complete solution. You would need to start with a fresh slate, not simply promote teams to take the place of merged ones. There’s no gradualist solution for what’s broken. I hate the word and the idea of franchises, but in a way that is the model. The starting point has got to be a viable business model, because that is what football today is based on.

[pineapple stu]

I hate the word and the idea of franchises, but in a way that is the model.
But it's not - Kildare County and Sporting Fingal were franchises set up explicitly to target population gaps in the LoI, and they barely lasted 15 years between them before going bust with minimal traction in the stands.

What are you suggesting will be different this time?


What worked in Sweden btw? Not understanding the mentions of Sweden in the last pages.
Merging clubs - third policeman is suggesting merging (say) Bohs/Shels, Pat's/Rovers, Dundalk/Drogheda will significantly improve the LoI.

[third policeman]

[QUOTE=pineapple stu;2093606]But it's not - Kildare County and Sporting Fingal were franchises set up explicitly to target population gaps in the LoI, and they barely lasted 15 years between them before going bust with minimal traction in the stands.

What are you suggesting will be different this time?

It’s not about gaps, it’s about viable catchments to support viable clubs. Those examples are irrelevant and actually make my pint. They were adding to the congestion and unsustainability of what’s already not working.

The thing that could make this work is novelty. It’s new, ambitious and configured on a sound and sustainable business model. It could therefore attract sponsorship, investment, media contracts that the LOI can’t and hasn’t. The LOI is appealing to a tiny demographic of diehards. It’s been struggling for decades, and by the way, you still haven’t suggested an alternative solution.