Gavin Bazunu G Standard Liege (loan from Southampton) b.2002

[pineapple stu]

Harsh, given it was deflected from very close range!
Yeah, for context, it's here at 1:15 (https://www.skysports.com/premier-league-highlights/video/36504/13108037/liverpool-3-1-sheffield-utd-premier-league-highlights). "Very close range" is about 3 yards like! You can't use that to argue for Bazunu over Kelleher given Bazunu has unfortunately let in more than his share of weak efforts lately.

[SkStu]

I am a staunch believer in the current ability and future potential of Bazunu. There has been a faction of support that, for whatever reason, have had the knives out almost since day one behind a solid campaign for Kelleher to be our first choice. At no point until recently, i believe, was this a realistic take but right now it is hard to see past Kelleher.

With all of that for context, it does really bother me that we do have posters that question Bazunu's ability and potential. I just cannot reconcile it. He has won plaudits everywhere before Southampton - player of the season stuff. He is recognized as one of the best (and/or most promising) young keepers in Europe. He is a very good goalkeeper going through a bad patch in what was otherwise a reasonably successful season for him. When Southampton went on their run he had the fans broadly onside and was performing well. But he has had some stinkers - mistakes and fumbles (that the stats dont show) that dont do anyones confidence any good - fans, management or the player himself. Most young keepers playing at a high level go through this as part of their growth. I cant think of one who hasnt?? And at the end of the day, it is how he responds that will be most important. But again, i cant believe that i find myself having to try and convince more than one poster on here that he is a good goalkeeper with a hell of a lot of additional upside...

In retrospect, I think Southampton was just a bad move. Instability, weakened squad, poor defence and a losing tendency in the premiership was just a bad move. At the time I thought it would be fine but it hasnt played out well for him. And, as many of the pro-Kelleher faction (joke!) point out, moving for the sake of moving is not always the best strategy. In retrospect, i dismissed that perspective a bit too easily. There are legitimate questions there for sure about that decision, his judgement, call it what you like.

[pineapple stu]

Then [Southampton] turned out to be a dumpsterfire

I - and others - pointed out that the problem was the Southampton defence - not Bazunu - a goalkeeper is only ever as good as the ten players in front of him.

Then the wheels came off the Southampton bandwagon - starting with the 5-3 win against Huddersfield - they lost 3 of the next 4 and then lose a game against Ipswich that they should have won. All of the old defensive issues came back to haunt the team.

So 3 goals conceded - Southampton lose the ball at midfield, Ipswich break, the Southampton defence is a shambles

Ipswich's second goal demonstrated all the problems with Southampton's defence

The three Ipswich goals were all the fault of poor defending

Southampton's defence will be torn to shreds in the PL - just like it was last season - and I could easily see them shipping more than the 73 goals they let in last season - and that is irrespective of who is in goals for them.
Isn't is amazing though how all Southampton's problems are the defence and none are the keeper? (And this a defence that's given up fewer chances than most other defences - fewer than everyone bar Leeds and WBA this season; fewer than everyone bar Man City, Newcastle, Arsenal, Mand Utd and Brighton last season). It's a really lazy analysis to be honest. "Bazunu is great, therefore the problem must be with the defence". There's no real depth to the analysis other than starting from the desired answer and working backwards. Your post can be summarised as "My view + Scene missing = Fact"


Martin appeared to sort out the defence - and Southampton went on a 22 game undefeated run - climbed from 15th to 2nd - and there was barely a murmur on this thread for weeks while Bazunu was playing exceptionally well (with a better defence in front of him) and Bazunu was making saves that were crucial for the result in multiple games.
Actually Bazunu wasn't playing exceptionally well, and wasn't making saves that were crucial for the result in multiple games. In many games he didn't make a save at all because Southampton were so much on top. His form improved, partly because he had less to do, and partly because most of what he was being asked to do was to build attacks from the back, which he seems quite good at. But once the opposition started getting shots on goal again, it went south.


I think Bazunu was unsighted for the shot because there was a gaggle of players between him and the strike of the ball.
The flip side of that is to argue his positioning was poor for that one precisely because he placed himself behind a gaggle of players - and left the whole left side of goal wide open. Is it coincidence the ball ended up there? It's the one of the three I least blame him for, mind, because of the unlikely way the shot came in, but you're still starting off with the view that Bazunu is great and working out the excuse from there.


I will also say that I wouldn't take a blind bit of notice of the Leicester forum

I don't care what the stats say
Oh don't we know. They don't fit your preconceived view, therefore they must be wrong. But that's not a real argument.

About the only plus side for Bazunu at the moment is that the keeper Southampton signed this season, Joe Lumley, had the worst PSxG record of any keeper in the Championship last season, while Alex McCarthy seems past it at this stage.

[Eirambler]

Can't believe anyone would blame Kelleher for that OG - that was on Bradley who lost his man on the cross (incidentally Bradley has a lot of work to do on the defensive side of his game that would be shown up in a weaker team I think).



The other side is coaching, genuinely has he gotten the right coaching over the last 3 years to bring him onto the level that his talent reflected?

This is why I wouldn't actually mind seeing Bazunu moving to become a number 2 at a top tier club for a year or two if the opportunity came up. He will have learned an awful lot from four consecutive seasons of first team football by the age of 22, but going to a club where he could learn from the top GK coaches and train with a top class keeper might actually be a better way of tidying up some of the issues in his game now.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Isn't is amazing though how all Southampton's problems are the defence and none are the keeper? (And this a defence that's given up fewer chances than most other defences - fewer than everyone bar Leeds and WBA this season; fewer than everyone bar Man City, Newcastle, Arsenal, Mand Utd and Brighton last season). It's a really lazy analysis to be honest. "Bazunu is great, therefore the problem must be with the defence". There's no real depth to the analysis other than starting from the desired answer and working backwards. Your post can be summarised as "My view + Scene missing = Fact"
When have I ever said that Bazunu is 'great' ?

Let me ask you this question - how many Southampton games have you watched this season ? - I'll even make it easier - how many Southampton games have you watched the highlights of? - or is it a case that you just scurry off to study your stats after every game, just so that you can some on here to ridicule Bazunu's performance when the stats claim he is the worst goalkeeper in the Championship ?

The Achilles heel for Southampton, just like last season, is the failure of their defence to close down attackers lining up to strike the ball - time and again the striker has an age to set-up, pick a spot and shoot. When you give a good striker that amount of time they will score more often than not irrespective of who is in goal.



Actually Bazunu wasn't playing exceptionally well, and wasn't making saves that were crucial for the result in multiple games. In many games he didn't make a save at all because Southampton were so much on top. His form improved, partly because he had less to do, and partly because most of what he was being asked to do was to build attacks from the back, which he seems quite good at. But once the opposition started getting shots on goal again, it went south.
See questions above -


The flip side of that is to argue his positioning was poor for that one precisely because he placed himself behind a gaggle of players - and left the whole left side of goal wide open. Is it coincidence the ball ended up there? It's the one of the three I least blame him for, mind, because of the unlikely way the shot came in, but you're still starting off with the view that Bazunu is great and working out the excuse from there.
Not the case - I would argue that Bazunu was positioned in the correct spot for a left-footed shot on a ball coming in from his right - he lost line of sight when the Ipswich player fell over and two Southampton players (one was Smallbone) moved a step to the left without challenging Sarmiento as he got up and toe-poked the ball into the corner with his right-foot. There were four Southampton players within two yards of Sarmiento, four players who saw him trip himself up, fall over, scramble back onto his feet and get a shot away, without one of them getting any kind of a challenge in or attempting to block the shot. Smallbone should have thrown himself in front of the ball (Shane Duffy style) to prevent it getting anywhere near the goal, instead he just stood there and then held his hands out to say 'what the hell just happened here'.

I do think that Bazunu was slightly out of position for the second goal - a step too far to his right and he looked like he was anticipating a shot to his right and seemed to talk a half step to the right before diving to the left - a combination of all three left him unable to reach the ball. This is why I suggest that the second goal was the one I would have expected him to save from the three - and it was the most crucial goal in the game - save that and Southampton probably win - conceding it led to increased pressure on Southampton and ultimately the concession of the winning goal for Ipswich. I did say that Bazunu did not have a good game against Ipswich and does bear the primary responsibility for Southampton losing the game. When you play a young goalkeeper you have to expect this to happen. It must also be noted that Ipswich are a good team and Kieran McKenna is a way better coach than Russell Martin.



Oh don't we know. They don't fit your preconceived view, therefore they must be wrong. But that's not a real argument.
When stats are being used to claim that Bazunu is the worst goalkeeper in the Championship you are damned right I am going to dismiss them.


About the only plus side for Bazunu at the moment is that the keeper Southampton signed this season, Joe Lumley, had the worst PSxG record of any keeper in the Championship last season, while Alex McCarthy seems past it at this stage.
On the plus side - you are not picking any team that Bazunu plays for and your comments have zero impact on his performance.

On a more general point (not addressing this to stu specifically because it doesn't directly relate to goalkeeping stats) - goalkeepers have the most difficult job of any of the eleven players on a soccer team - they are expected to save everything - they are not expected to make mistakes - they are the first to be blamed when a goal is conceded etc. Soccer is a team game - you attack from the back and you defend from the front - and when that breaks down the one player that gets exposed is the goalkeeper.

All goalkeepers can and do make mistakes - the best goalkeepers tend to make the fewest mistakes and be consistent, but also tend to be protected by the best defences - and they usually only get to that stage after 10/15 years of good coaching and development.

Ireland are currently ranked 60th in the FIFA rankings - but I would happily have Bazunu, Kelleher and Travers in my squad ahead of Scotland's (ranked 39th) Gunn, Kelly and Gordon, ahead of Wales (29th) Hennessy, Ward and King - even ahead of England's (ranked 4th) Pickford, Ramsdale and Trafford. In fact there are very few international squads that I would rank their 3 goalkeepers ahead of the three we have available. It is further worth noting that very few international squads have goalkeepers who are as young as the Irish keepers and few that have goalkeepers who are under 30 years of age. Kelleher is 25, Travers is 24 and Bazunu is 22 - and they all play in the a country that is flooded with money to buy the best players, including the best goalkeepers. Most of the larger countries have one top goalkeeper - but the quality quickly drops off after that. Ireland has the potential in the next five years to have two top level keepers and a third one who will be at least a good Championship level keeper who could also develop into a PL player in the future.

We have good goalkeepers who are still developing and (potentially) will get (a lot) better - it what is in front of them that we really need to address.

[Jolly Red Giant]

This is why I wouldn't actually mind seeing Bazunu moving to become a number 2 at a top tier club for a year or two if the opportunity came up. He will have learned an awful lot from four consecutive seasons of first team football by the age of 22, but going to a club where he could learn from the top GK coaches and train with a top class keeper might actually be a better way of tidying up some of the issues in his game now.
Bazunu is on a five year contract from last year - so I suspect he will be at Southampton for the foreseeable future - if they were to buy a keeper, he will not be anything approaching a top class keeper and that would not make any difference if they are promoted.

My preference would be for Martin to get sacked for failing to get them promoted - a new coach who is able to organise a defence is hired - and a proper goalkeeping coach.

I would agree with stu on one other thing - Southampton have nothing behind Bazunu - and a keeper who would provide more competition for Bazunu would, in my opinion, be good for his development.

[pineapple stu]

how many Southampton games have you watched the highlights of?
I actually regularly watch the highlights - the Sky Sports site is great for that (I've linked their highlights here a few times; usually available within an hour of the final whistle). That's one of the main reasons I know you're talking nonsense when you make claims like how Bazunu makes at least one great save per game.

Southampton fans regularly watch their games too and I can see from their forum that - as others here have said - there's a definite lack of confidence in him. It lifted briefly while they were doing very well (that is, while they were keeping the ball away from him), but it's come back home to roost with avengeance lately. Even Russell Martin commented on it after the last game. No doubt you think they're talking nonsense too. After all, when people claim he's the worst keeper in the Championship, "you're damn right I'm going to dismiss them" - but that's not an argument. That's back to "My view + scene missing = fact!"

But at this stage I think we all expect no better from you in fairness. It's like Orwell at this stage - keeper good, defence bad. Repeat until people start to believe it over the evidence of their eyes.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I actually regularly watch the highlights - the Sky Sports site is great for that (I've linked their highlights here a few times; usually available within an hour of the final whistle). That's one of the main reasons I know you're talking nonsense when you make claims like how Bazunu makes at least one great save per game.
I regularly watch entire games involving Southampton - and the highlights show 4/5/6 incidents per game - and even then they will show Bazunu making saves. Furthermore, try direct quotes, rather than your usual paper castles


Southampton fans regularly watch their games too and I can see from their forum that - as others here have said - there's a definite lack of confidence in him. It lifted briefly while they were doing very well (that is, while they were keeping the ball away from him), but it's come back home to roost with avengeance lately.
Football fans are passionate and volatile - and, as I pointed out before, when things are going bad the goalkeeper is usually the brunt of the criticism. As for your 'keeping the ball away from him' - that is what a defence is supposed to do.


Even Russell Martin commented on it after the last game. No doubt you think they're talking nonsense too.
And where did I place the blame for Southampton's loss last Monday - or did you conveniently just decide to ignore it because it doesn't fit in with your argument.


After all, when people claim he's the worst keeper in the Championship, "you're damn right I'm going to dismiss them" - but that's not an argument. That's back to "My view + scene missing = fact!"

But at this stage I think we all expect no better from you in fairness. It's like Orwell at this stage - keeper good, defence bad. Repeat until people start to believe it over the evidence of their eyes.
We all know that stats are the be-all-and-end-all for you - irrespective of anything else - and claiming nonsense like Bazunu is the worst keeper in the Championship certainly fits into the narrative that you have been pushing for a long time now.

[Jd2793]

We all know that stats are the be-all-and-end-all for you - irrespective of anything else - and claiming nonsense like Bazunu is the worst keeper in the Championship certainly fits into the narrative that you have been pushing for a long time now.


Would you give over. Nobody would be saying a lot about bazunu if he was closer to even -3 or -4 goals prevented. the stats are never the full story but they do tell you something, ignoring that is burying your head in the sand. lets be realistic about where gav is here. he is the worst shot stopper (stu isnt saying worst overall) in the championship by a few metrics. Bazunu would admit himself that thats not good enough. All the players these days are fed the same stats (in much finer detail) to help them with improving their game + contract talks etc. he'll know himself how they show him in a poor light alongside video highlights etc.

[pineapple stu]

Good summary JD

I mean, it misses the important fact that JRG is right no matter what anyone else has to say, and is in fact so far right he doesn't even need to back up why he's right. A minor point though... :p

Anyway, let's see how today goes - up against Sammie. Can't miss v can't save? All set up for a great performance

[Jolly Red Giant]

Would you give over. Nobody would be saying a lot about bazunu if he was closer to even -3 or -4 goals prevented. the stats are never the full story but they do tell you something, ignoring that is burying your head in the sand. lets be realistic about where gav is here. he is the worst shot stopper (stu isnt saying worst overall) in the championship by a few metrics. Bazunu would admit himself that thats not good enough. All the players these days are fed the same stats (in much finer detail) to help them with improving their game + contract talks etc. he'll know himself how they show him in a poor light alongside video highlights etc.
stu has been banging on about Bazunu's stats for a very long time now - and I have never seen one positive post from stu in relation to Bazunu (I'm sure it will be dug out now that I have made this comment).

Of course Bazunu is not the finished article - he is 22 years old - goalkeepers do not reach their prime until they are 30 years old. I will repeat again - Bazunu has and will continue to concede a lot of shots because the Southampton defence have a propensity of standing off strikers with the ball, allowing them to set-up, pick their spot and strike the ball without any challenge. When you do that the striker will score more often than not, irrespective how good the keeper is. You are exposing your goalkeeper and the keeper will always get the blame (and under Kenny Ireland had a similar propensity).

My responses to stu (and some others) are that they adopt a hypercritical approach in relation to Bazunu - an approach that is not taken in relation to any other player in the squad - and this is despite the fact that Bazunu is and will be one of the best keepers ever to play for Ireland. I openly admit that I bend the stick the other way - because it is needed when such a hypercritical approach is taken.

Gavin Bazunu has flaws - I am sure he knows his weaknesses and I am sure he is working on them. However, even with these flaws he is a cracking good keeper - one that we are lucky to have. I expect him to develop and improve and I think he is capable of becoming one of the top keepers in the PL. Time will tell if that happens. He is not in a great situation at the moment - he is playing in a team where the manager emphasises attack, not defence - he is repeatedly exposed by his defence - he bears the brunt of the criticism for the failings of the team in relation to defence. From what I can see he doesn't have a good coaching situation to help him - and he could end up in a worse situation if Southampton get promoted.

I have agreed with the assessment that Bazunu has not progressed as he should have this season - and he does need to address his weaknesses in a more proactive way because if he doesn't they will become embedded in his play. However, as Irish fans we have a different outlook and want different outcomes than Southampton do - we want Bazunu to develop to ensure that we have a secure goalkeeper for the international team over then next 15 years or so. Southampton have the option to go out and buy a different keeper if they feel Bazunu does not develop sufficiently. We do not have that luxury - we are stuck with what comes through the wider football system in this country - and it would be a major surprise if we find another keeper of the standard of Kelleher and Bazunu in the next 15 years.

By all means criticise Bazunu - when he deserves it. But do it in a balanced way, not in a hypercritical fashion. Recognise that he is still a kid in goalkeeping terms, learning his trade and trying to do it in a much, much more difficult situation than Caoimhin Kelleher, with far less resources. One of the key factors between the two is that Kelleher can have complete confidence in the defence in front of him and his play benefits accordingly - Bazunu is exposed by his defence and clearly cannot have confidence in it. This leaves Bazunu in a position where he is more hesitant in his goalkeeping that Kelleher needs to be, and it is clearly impacting on his performance and his development. I made this point before - put Bazunu into the WBA team (where they have a journeyman goalkeeper who is 27 years old and has spent his entire career bouncing around non-league and League 2 teams) and you would see different play from Bazunu - he would be in a much better situation and would develop far more rapidly - unfortunately he is stuck in Southampton for the foreseeable future.

[Eirambler]

Can't miss v can't save?

It was all set up for a 0-0 as soon as you posted that!

[pineapple stu]

The power of a pokey internet forum in the corner of the internet! :D

[Jolly Red Giant]

One noticeable feature of the Blackburn v Southampton game were the number of shots blocked by Southampton defenders and the number of shots that the striker was under pressure from the defender. That did not happen last Monday and Southampton conceded three goals - it did happen yesterday, repeatedly, and Southampton had a clean sheet. Bazunu had a clean game, made a couple of decent saves that you would expect him to make and did a decent job distributing the ball.

[Stuttgart88]

Actually Bazunu wasn't playing exceptionally well, and wasn't making saves that were crucial for the result in multiple games. In many games he didn't make a save at all because Southampton were so much on top. His form improved, partly because he had less to do, and partly because most of what he was being asked to do was to build attacks from the back, which he seems quite good at. But once the opposition started getting shots on goal again, it went south.
I think that's unfair. I didn't see many of the games during their good run but I'd look on Twitter to see how he was doing and quite often during that spell there'd be posts like "credit to Bazunu, good save at an important time " (i.e., 0-0, 1-1-, 1-0 or whatever). And that's exactly what you want your keeper to be doing - making saves at important times in games.

[tetsujin1979]

Eleven clean sheets this season in the championship, that's joint-fifth with Max O'Leary, and two others
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023%E2%80%9324_EFL_Championship#Clean_sheets

[pineapple stu]

That's a stat that needs to be taken in context though - in how many of those games did he face only one or two shots on target for example? Take the run in Nov/Dec - 6 clean sheets in 11 games. But in that -

Millwall had one shot on target
WBA had two (one scored)
Huddersfield had two (one scored)
Bristol City had one
Cardiff had two
Watford had four (one scored)
Coventry had four (one scored)
Blackburn had four
QPR had two
Swansea had one
Plymouth had one (which was scored)

That's a decent enough run of form overall in fairness, but when you're only facing one or two shots a game, it does make it much easier to keep a clean sheet. And that doesn't track whether the shots were daisy-cutters or pile-drivers into the top corner (or, as in the Plymouth example, a goalkeeper blunder). And while he made a couple of very good saves in that run (can't remember who it was against when he somehow got a foot to a six-yard piledriver in a scramble from a corner for example), I think it also undermines the idea that Bazunu was making big saves regularly (every game, as JRG has claimed).

It's why PSxG is a much better metric; it rates keepers far more evenly across a division. It may explain why some Southampton fans on their forum are saying they'd like to see a move for Johanssen, the Rotherham keeper, for example. He's only kept four clean sheets though - does that mean he's much worse than Bazunu?

[Stuttgart88]

The lengths to which you'd go to undermine any hint of praise for this kid...

[pineapple stu]

I'm sorry for a bit of analysis on a stat which I don't think shows what tets intends it to show. And on a discussion forum too!

Won't do it again.

[tetsujin1979]

Then you should include the number of games where the other keepers faced a similar number of shots, and how many of them resulted in clean sheets

[Jolly Red Giant]

The lengths to which you'd go to undermine any hint of praise for this kid...
It really is constant from stu - you have to wonder where it comes from - and where is the same level of statistical criticism for every other player in the squad.

If you are a manager you do not want you goalkeeper facing shots on goal - in fact in the best teams the goalkeepers rarely face shots and when they do the striker is usually under significant pressure from a defender - because the job of the defence is to prevent the strikers getting a shot off or if they do, make sure they don't get a clean strike (or header).

Why are Man U doing so poorly this year despite spending £50m on a keeper (46 conceded in 31 games) - well, for example, maybe the fact that over two games against Liverpool they have faced 62 shots on goal - and why does that happen - because their defence is useless and Ten Haag doesn't know how to coach his team to defend (because he didn't need to do it with Ajax).

Against Blackburn on Saturday, Southampton had 69% possession and had 7 shots on goal - 2 on target. With 31% possession Blackburn had 11 shots on goal and 3 on target. Southampton should have won comfortably, but could easily have lost. One of the reasons why Southampton didn't concede, apart from Bazunu making three saves, was that Southampton defenders blocked five shots on goal.

[Jd2793]

It really is constant from stu - you have to wonder where it comes from - and where is the same level of statistical criticism for every other player in the squad.

If you are a manager you do not want you goalkeeper facing shots on goal - in fact in the best teams the goalkeepers rarely face shots and when they do the striker is usually under significant pressure from a defender - because the job of the defence is to prevent the strikers getting a shot off or if they do, make sure they don't get a clean strike (or header).

Why are Man U doing so poorly this year despite spending £50m on a keeper (46 conceded in 31 games) - well, for example, maybe the fact that over two games against Liverpool they have faced 62 shots on goal - and why does that happen - because their defence is useless and Ten Haag doesn't know how to coach his team to defend (because he didn't need to do it with Ajax).

Against Blackburn on Saturday, Southampton had 69% possession and had 7 shots on goal - 2 on target. With 31% possession Blackburn had 11 shots on goal and 3 on target. Southampton should have won comfortably, but could easily have lost. One of the reasons why Southampton didn't concede, apart from Bazunu making three saves, was that Southampton defenders blocked five shots on goal.

Maybe its because nobody on here listens to anything that isnt gushing praise of GB , while shifting all the blame onto southamptons defence.

Southamptom have the 2nd fewest shots conceded in the league this season. Add their 2 games inhand with their avg shots concede per game and they go to 4th. Its not unreasonable to expect your keeper might be able to perform to even a "par" level , like say Meisler at leeds. By literally any metric Bazunu has cost southampton a real shot at automatic promotion by playing like this for the season.

[ontheotherhand]

Maybe its because nobody on here listens to anything that isnt gushing praise of GB , while shifting all the blame onto southamptons defence.

Southamptom have the 2nd fewest shots conceded in the league this season. Add their 2 games inhand with their avg shots concede per game and they go to 4th. Its not unreasonable to expect your keeper might be able to perform to even a "par" level , like say Meisler at leeds. By literally any metric Bazunu has cost southampton a real shot at automatic promotion by playing like this for the season.

Wouldn't agree with that reading to be honest. There's far more negative stuff on here about him than positive. It's an odd one to be honest. Not sure why Bazunu gets more attention than, say, Nathan Collins, who has also had a fairly ropey few seasons. Seems to be a desire to focus on Bazunu's weaknesses rather than his strengths and generally look for holes when the reality is, as plenty have been saying for a long time now, that he's a young lad with serious raw talent playing in a high pressure position and learning his trade. He's been good and bad this season. Another season in the Championship would be good for him at this stage I think.

I wonder is it because we have Kelleher and Bazunu vying for one spot. 2 choices makes it easier for things to go a bit polarized?

[SkStu]

Maybe its because nobody on here listens to anything that isnt gushing praise of GB , while shifting all the blame onto southamptons defence.

Southamptom have the 2nd fewest shots conceded in the league this season. Add their 2 games inhand with their avg shots concede per game and they go to 4th. Its not unreasonable to expect your keeper might be able to perform to even a "par" level , like say Meisler at leeds. By literally any metric Bazunu has cost southampton a real shot at automatic promotion by playing like this for the season.

That is a really unfair last line... it is a team game and as JRG rightly points out the defense has to shoulder some of the blame. There have been times watching Southampton's defense this season and last where it looks like a FIFA game when the controllers gone a bit wobbly. The strikers are also quite inefficient going on the spg stats in the link below.

On the defensive stats side of things, I have it that Southampton conceded the 4th/5th highest shots per game in the division, at 11.1 spg equal with WBA and pretty much on a par with Sunderland, Boro and Leicester. The fewest shots per game is Leeds at 9.5 and the highest is Rotherham at 16. Interestingly, from second best to second worst, the spread is only about 4 spg so is it really that significant a measure? The only thing i will say is that you can't on one hand deny Bazunu any credit for a clean sheet because he faced very few shots on goal while at the same time not giving some sort of dispensation for the games where his defence hasn't given him the first line of protection that is their job. Which is a regular occurrence from a couple of posters on the topic of Baz.

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/9622/Stages/22080/TeamStatistics/England-Championship-2023-2024

While I am all for discussion and debate, there is a level of reasonableness that goes out the window on this site sometimes - in the race to be "right" - that is really offputting. We saw it with Kenny and it has long been the same way with Baz.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Maybe its because nobody on here listens to anything that isnt gushing praise of GB , while shifting all the blame onto southamptons defence.

I would argue that this is not the case - there is hyper-criticism of Bazunu with no mention of his ability. Those who react to this hyper-criticism are well aware of the current weaknesses that he has - the kid has years of development ahead of him. He is one of the 2/3 youngest keepers in the top two divisions in England.



I wonder is it because we have Kelleher and Bazunu vying for one spot. 2 choices makes it easier for things to go a bit polarized?
There shouldn't be any polarisation here - we have two good keepers (and Travers isn't half bad either) in the squad - you play the one who is in the best form (and IMO at the moment that is Kelleher).

[Jd2793]

[QUOTE=SkStu;2183611]That is a really unfair last line... it is a team game and as JRG rightly points out the defense has to shoulder some of the blame.
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/9622/Stages/22080/TeamStatistics/England-Championship-2023-2024



the defence is doing their job though? their xg against is ranked 3rd best, shots against is 2nd best. what more can the defence/team do? the team unit as a whole is playing like a top 3 defensive side. Bazunus save percentage is 23rd - 62.8% and his goals Prevented is also 23rd at -(minus)10.8
as i said if gav played closer to par like mesiler who has save percentage ranked 4th - 71.8% but a goals prevented 12th at -0.7 then Southampton would be in the race for a league title

this isnt bashing bazunu but its clear that he has a problem with the most important attribute a keeper needs - shot stopping. there isnt really any question marks with his ball playing or sweeping.

[Jolly Red Giant]

the defence is doing their job though? their xg against is ranked 3rd best, shots against is 2nd best. what more can the defence/team do? the team unit as a whole is playing like a top 3 defensive side. Bazunus save percentage is 23rd - 62.8% and his goals Prevented is also 23rd at -(minus)10.8
Seriously - how can you claim that a defence is doing its job when they leave a winger in 30 yards of space - allow him to pass it into a striker surrounded by FOUR defenders - the striker has an eternity to miskick the ball - fall over - get back onto his feet and strike the ball into the corner without any of the FOUR defenders making a single effort between them to get a challenge in ? - and that stuff happened three times in that game and Ipswich scored each time.

Now - in my opinion - Bazunu is still to blame for the defeat. I think he should have saved the second goal which would have left Southampton on the front foot and still 2-1 up, dominating the game with 20 minutes to go. But there have been numerous occasions when Southampton have defended in this fashion and Bazunu has not been responsible for losing the game.


as i said if gav played closer to par like mesiler who has save percentage ranked 4th - 71.8% but a goals prevented 12th at -0.7 then Southampton would be in the race for a league title
Daniel Farke is a very good coach - way better than Russell Martin. He has Leeds far better organised defensively than Martin has with Southampton. Have a look at any Leeds game this season and you will rarely - if ever - see an opposition striker getting a free strike or header on the ball. Invariably the strike is blocked or the striker is under severe pressure when taking the shot / header. You are not going to stop every effort on goal - but the harder the defence makes it for the striker to get the ball away, the more saves your goalkeeper will make and the fewer goals that your team will concede. And Meslier is a good young keeper who will be a mainstay in the French team for the next 10/15 years.

Leeds lost to Coventry last Saturday and it was a perfect example of what I am talking about - there wasn't a single shot or header in the entire game where a Leeds defender (or a Coventry defender) didn't get in a challenge. Coventry's first goal was the result of a massive scramble in the Leeds area after a corner when it was bundled over the line -their second goal was a fast break after a period of sustained Leeds pressure when the winger came in unchallenged from the opposite wing of the attack to knock home a cross. The Leeds goal was scored after several blocks and challenges by defenders in the Coventry area. But throughout the game the strikers were under pressure - and defenders were making challenges and clearing the ball off the line. I don't think there has been a single incident where a Southampton defender has cleared a ball off the line this season.


this isnt bashing bazunu but its clear that he has a problem with the most important attribute a keeper needs - shot stopping. there isnt really any question marks with his ball playing or sweeping.
Again - this has to be looked at in the context of the wider team. Southampton are not set up to defend and Martin does not have them properly organised or disciplined. When they do defend properly, they rarely concede - in the first 21 games of the 22 unbeaten they had 9 clean sheets and only conceded more than one goal in one game (a 2-2 away to Preston). When they don't defend they ship a lot of goals - of the 51 they have conceded 22 have come in just 6 games - and their defence was a brutal shambles in those six games. That is 22 in 6 games - and 29 in the remaining 33 games. As is always the case - the goalkeeper gets the blame - when defensive weakness contribute significantly to the problem. Being a goalkeeper is by far the most difficult position in football.

Bazunu is not the complete article - he is 22 years old and has years to go before he has reached his prime. Alisson didn't make his debut for Internacional until he was 21yrs and 5 months - at the same age Bazunu had played almost 80 league games - had just joined Southampton and had about 10 caps for Ireland. Alisson didn't become the starter for his Brazilian team for another year. He was 24 before he joined Roma and only played 37 games for them over 2 seasons before he joined Liverpool. At the age of 26 he had played less games than Bazunu has played up to the present day. Ederson was released by Sao Paulo at 18 years of age. He ended up signing as a youth team player with a second division club in Brazil. He spent the next four seasons playing 66 games in the Brazilian second division and for Rio Ave in the Primeria Liga. He then spent two season with the Benefica B team before making his debut in Portugal. Over the following two seasons he played 37 times for Benfica.

Now I have picked the two top keepers in the PL to demonstrate the progression and development of their careers. Bazunu has played far more and at a higher level at 22 years of age than Alisson had at 26 and Ederson had at 25. Bazunu is playing for a manager who doesn't coach his teams to defend and behind players who don't tackle/challenge/ throw their bodies in front of the ball. There is no way he could have confidence in his defence after last season and a lot of this season - that will impact on any keepers performance, making them more hesitant and slower to adjust because he doesn't know what to expect from his defence. Now - that does not mean he doesn't have flaws - every goalkeeper does - but his weaknesses are magnified because of the 10 outfield players he has in front of him. Martin knows the problems with his defence - they went out against Blackburn and stopped strikers getting clean shots on goal - the problem is they do not do this on a consistent basis every week and that exposes Bazunu.

As I said previously - I thought the move to Southampton was a good move for Bazunu - it has turned into its exact opposite - and he is stuck there for the next 2/3 years. However, from an Ireland perspective - Bazunu is a young developing goalkeeper who could develop into a top class keeper and the best we have had since Shay Given - he is not there yet. Remember Kelleher is 25 - and has been in a much better position than Bazunu since last year. Kelleher is playing well - and deserves to start for Ireland - and Bazunu is an excellent back-up to have - and he could well end up as a better keeper than Kelleher.

Give the kid a break and if you want to do a deep dive and be hyper-critical then there are another 21 players who probably deserve it more at the moment (with the possible exception of Ferguson - who is still a kid - and Ogbene who has really exceeded my expectations for one).

[Jd2793]

Bazunu is playing for a manager who doesn't coach his teams to defend and behind players who don't tackle/challenge/ throw their bodies in front of the ball.


you have been presented with every shred of available evidence that this isnt the case this season, there really is no helping you. im out.

[Jolly Red Giant]

you have been presented with every shred of available evidence that this isnt the case this season, there really is no helping you. im out.
Martin is known for not bothering about defending - Southampton don't defend, neither did Swansea or the franchise Dons. He brought in Colin Calderwood to help with coaching the defence - but there is only so much you can do when the manager wants to focus only on attack. When things are going well they will get away with it - when they are not Southampton ship a stack of goals.

And if you want evidence - look at the Ipswich - the problems are there for all to see.

[elatedscum]

JD and Stu. It’s worth saying that xG against is a really really imperfect stat. And it’s used like it’s gospel. A good example is that Bazunu wasn’t hurt for that one that he let in against Plymouth which had a .97 xG or whatever. But equally it works the other way, it doesn’t factor in players behind the ball, time to shoot etc. so in an area where most teams might have defensive protection, if the defenders aren’t there, the xG doesn’t change. So it’s definitely true that two teams with an identical xG against could have a totally different level of difficulty for a goalkeeper.

It’s also true that a lot of Bazunu’s qualities, his ability to come out and clean up, his speed and strength and command of his area - they’re never reflected in xG against, cause shots are the only metric which count towards it, so if as a keeper, you deny a goal by stopping an attack before it the shot happens - you get no credit for it…

[pineapple stu]

I don't agree it's used like gospel. For starters, you're absolutely right in the anomalies you point out - but I've flagged the Plymouth example before (and that I don't think it adjusts for deflections). I've also flagged that I don't believe it to the 0.1 - but when your stat is such an outlier (we're talking 5 worse than the worst of the pack, and then there's three outliers) then it's really hard to ignore.

xG does at least claim to factor in defensive position btw - I don't think it's correct to say "If the defenders aren't there, the xG doesn't change". See here (https://fbref.com/en/expected-goals-model-explained/) for example - "Some of these characteristics/variables include [...] Did the defence have time to get in position?"

Agree on sweeping too - not convinced on command of his area though. Practically no other keeper claims as few crosses - so maybe there's headers coming in that other keepers would have stopped at source

[pineapple stu]

. Not sure why Bazunu gets more attention than, say, Nathan Collins, who has also had a fairly ropey few seasons.
I think it's because no-one is claiming Collins' mistakes are, say, the midfield's fault. There's nothing much to debate about Collins because there's far more agreement on his he's doing.


On the defensive stats side of things, I have it that Southampton conceded the 4th/5th highest shots per game in the division,
I was looking at shots on target only FWIW, on the basis that other shots aren't of concern to the keeper.

[Jolly Red Giant]

but when your stat is such an outlier (we're talking 5 worse than the worst of the pack, and then there's three outliers) then it's really hard to ignore.
Question for you stu - what do statisticians tend to do with outliers ?


does at least claim to factor in defensive position btw - I don't think it's correct to say "If the defenders aren't there, the xG doesn't change". See here (https://fbref.com/en/expected-goals-model-explained/) for example - "Some of these characteristics/variables include [...] Did the defence have time to get in position?"
A much more important factor is - if defenders are in position do they attempt to get a block in or challenge the striker?


Agree on sweeping too - not convinced on command of his area though. Practically no other keeper claims as few crosses - so maybe there's headers coming in that other keepers would have stopped at source
The sweeper aspect of Bazunu's game was coached up at Man City - and I would agree that he does not, yet, command his area. However, the goalkeepers command of his area is an aspect of the game that has change over the past couple of decades. Go back to the 70s and 80s and a goalkeeper would take out anything in front of them to get to the ball - that does not happen now. This is partly the result of keepers expecting to get a free out every time they are touched and worried about committing a foul if they actually do drive to the ball. However, from all the footage I have looked at, Southampton's problems is not being able to deal with crosses - it is stopping shots in the 15-25 yard range. They don't close down attackers, they don't put in challenges and they don't block shots. Opposition strikers know they have an eternity to set-up, pick their spot and strike the ball cleanly - and when you can do that you will score more often than not.

Now - again - shot stopping is a weakness in Bazunu's game - but I would argue that this is currently because of his lack of confidence in his defence, making him having to shift position, causing him to be hesitant for a split second, which causes him to be a fraction late diving for the ball. From what I can see his reaction saves, when he doesn't have time to see the striker setting up, are much better. He does need to work on this shot stopping - and on collecting crosses (Travers has a big problem with this - and Kelleher isn't great either) - he also needs to be much more vocal in calling out the actions of his defence. But I don't think at this stage that Southampton is the best place for him to learn and develop - unfortunately he is stuck there.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I think it's because no-one is claiming Collins' mistakes are, say, the midfield's fault. There's nothing much to debate about Collins because there's far more agreement on his he's doing.
Defending is not the job of the 3/4/5 defenders - it starts at the very front and is the job of all 11 players. Collins does have faults but he is also a very talented footballer - again - he is only a kid (who has played over 100 games - 70 of them in the PL over the past 3 years) Collins is the same age as Bazunu, and O'Brien, and a year older than Omobamidele and Feisty. In terms of the Irish team, the weakness in midfield does cause a lot of problems for the defence and the keeper - no matter who they are.



I was looking at shots on target only FWIW, on the basis that other shots aren't of concern to the keeper.
This is just not true - every strike of a ball and every header is of concern to the goalkeeper, whether it is on target or not - it impacts on the keeper's confidence in his defence and it impact on the keeper's judgement in terms of movement and positioning. A keeper who ignores any strike off target without looking at what led up to it - is not doing their job. I posted the stat that Onana has faced 62 shots on goal in two games against Liverpool - imaging his thought process every time Liverpool launch an attack - 'oh sh*t, here they come again'.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Second goal for Watford - commentary - ‘Kone - he’s got loads of space - far too much space’ as he sets-up, picks his spot and slides it into the bottom right hand corner past Bazunu.

[Jd2793]

fans not happy with him again... he really needs a bit of form before the play offs.

[Asterix]

fans not happy with him again... he really needs a bit of form before the play offs.

boring...

do you just live to criticise him. Can't get on here quick enough to put him down. Your post never come across that even watch the games.

Deflected goal for the first so you will be delighted with the negative psxg stats he'll get for that.

[Jd2793]

boring...

do you just live to criticise him. Can't get on here quick enough to put him down. Your post never come across that even watch the games.

Deflected goal for the first so you will be delighted with the negative psxg stats he'll get for that.

LOL. i was responding to JRG who seems to think everything is southamptons fault. genuinely is it too much to expect your keeper can save that second goal? he needs a confidence boost before the pressure cooker of the play offs . lets hope his form improves in their run in

[pineapple stu]

Wasn't great for Coventry's goal midweek either - a high cross into the box from out on the byline which was sidefooted home from inside the six-yard box. The player was unmarked so you could blame the defence again, but the keeper surely can't let a high cross travel right the way across the six-yard box without coming for it.

All good experience, touch wood.

[Asterix]

No keeper is coming for that ball ffs.

[pineapple stu]

Can't agree. If it's the keeper and an attacker in the six-yard box, the keeper has to come out tops. If you can't come for that, what can you come for? And remember Bazunu comes for fewer crosses than pretty any other Championship keeper.

[Stuttgart88]

Wasn't great for Coventry's goal midweek either - a high cross into the box from out on the byline which was sidefooted home from inside the six-yard box. The player was unmarked so you could blame the defence again, but the keeper surely can't let a high cross travel right the way across the six-yard box without coming for it.

All good experience, touch wood.

Nonsense.

FWIW, I think Watford’s second today looked soft (and worryingly familiar) and I really think he should be getting a hand to it, but the cross that led to Coventry’s goal really wasn’t the keeper’s ball to take. His right back disappeared without trace and he was beaten from close range from an unmarked attacker. That really was down to terrible defending.

[Stuttgart88]

Can't agree. If it's the keeper and an attacker in the six-yard box, the keeper has to come out tops. If you can't come for that, what can you come for? And remember Bazunu comes for fewer crosses than pretty any other Championship keeper.

middle of the 6 yard box maybe, but in % terms I think very few keepers would have gone for that. You just have to trust that your defenders don’t let men go. If you’re watching that in real time you think it’s a relatively routine cross that gets cleared at the back post. In hindsight it’d have been worth for given the rubbish defending, but very few keepers would be coming for that.

The fact(?) that he comes for fewer crosses has little to do with it. More sophistry there.

[Stuttgart88]

*going for

[Jd2793]

Nonsense.

FWIW, I think Watford’s second today looked soft (and worryingly familiar) and I really think he should be getting a hand to it, but the cross that led to Coventry’s goal really wasn’t the keeper’s ball to take. His right back disappeared without trace and he was beaten from close range from an unmarked attacker. That really was down to terrible defending.

yeah agree 2nd one today is poor on his part. similar ish to the winner against ipswich that seemed to go in in slow motion.

[Jolly Red Giant]

By the way - if you want to see a goalkeeping performance - look at the two keepers in the Burnley/Brighton game today

[Jolly Red Giant]

LOL. i was responding to JRG who seems to think everything is southamptons fault. genuinely is it too much to expect your keeper can save that second goal? he needs a confidence boost before the pressure cooker of the play offs . lets hope his form improves in their run in
I wasn't making any comment on Bazunu and the goal - I was merely pointing out the comments of the commentator - who said exactly the same thing I have said on here before. It is plain to see the problem in Southampton's defence - three players around striker and he had all day to pick his spot and strike the ball.

That said - I do think that Bazunu should have saved it. It is the case that he does seem a split second slow getting down to the ball - but I will repeat - I think this is being caused by the wider problems in the Southampton defence and Bazunu not knowing what the striker is going to do. If someone gets in a challenge in that position then Bazunu makes up the split second - if not then Bazunu has to wait and see where the ball is going, causing a delay in response.

This is why I think Bazunu is in a bad situation for his development (which is what we are concerned about - not Southampton's results) - the more he reacts that fraction of a second late, the more it becomes ingrained in his play and the harder it will be to correct it. He really does need to be in a team that puts defending first - so that his shot-stopping skills are developed. Unfortunately that is not going to happen at Southampton.

Maybe the best thing for Bazunu at this stage is for Southampton to get promoted - buy a new keeper and Bazunu gets to go out on loan to a Championship team - but it would have to be a team that tries to defend properly - e.g. WBA - or to a lesser extent Coventry, Millwall, QPR (if Begovic was to retire) or Hull. Bristol City would be another option - but they have O'Leary - or Sunderland - but they have Patterson.

Just looking at the PL table - if Everton were to get relegated - and Dyche to survive as manager - Pickford would be gone and it would be a good spot for Bazunu.

But I am just surmising here - Bazunu is contracted to Southampton until 2027.

[Snapshot]

. . . Maybe the best thing for Bazunu at this stage is for Southampton to get promoted - buy a new keeper and Bazunu gets to go out on loan to a Championship team - but it would have to be a team that tries to defend properly - e.g. WBA - or to a lesser extent Coventry, Millwall, QPR (if Begovic was to retire) or Hull. Bristol City would be another option - but they have O'Leary - or Sunderland - but they have Patterson.

Just looking at the PL table - if Everton were to get relegated - and Dyche to survive as manager - Pickford would be gone and it would be a good spot for Bazunu.

But I am just surmising here - Bazunu is contracted to Southampton until 2027.
If Southampton are promoted they'll replace Bazunu. Championship loan clubs could not afford his wages (£50k?), even if subsidised. I doubt any would be interested. Relegated Everton would opt for experience - as Southampton should have done in the first instance.
PS: As a matter of interest, how much do you reckon Bazunu is worth on the transfer market?

Edit: Bazunu earns between £20k-£25K according to Football League World and Salary Sport. My guess was poor.

[Stuttgart88]

I think there’s merit in elatedscum’s question about the coaching he’s getting. His game has flatlined (at best) when he should be making progress. He’s clearly an exceptional talent, as evidenced by his Portsmouth stint.

I think the season can be summarised as leaking goals but not really to blame, then solid and now leaking goals again and definite questions over his culpability.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I think there’s merit in elatedscum’s question about the coaching he’s getting. His game has flatlined (at best) when he should be making progress. He’s clearly an exceptional talent, as evidenced by his Portsmouth stint.
I have raised this before - his goalkeeping coach at Southampton, Dean Thornton, never played at professional level - he gave up football at 19 because of injuries and went into coaching. Now - he might be very good - but unlike other positions on the pitch - I think that you really need the experience of having played as a goalkeeper at the professional level to be a capable goalkeeping coach.