Gavin Bazunu G Standard Liege (loan from Southampton) b.2002

[Eirambler]

It's hard to defend his performances at the moment to be honest.

[ontheotherhand]

Not sure you have to defend them? He's a 20 year old playing in the EPL for the first time. A bit of a struggle was inevitable. Sure he had the same at Rochdale and then bounced back.

[JR89]

Not sure you have to defend them? He's a 20 year old playing in the EPL for the first time. A bit of a struggle was inevitable. Sure he had the same at Rochdale and then bounced back.

And you're playing for a side that was tipped as a possible relegation candidate.

[third policeman]

And you're playing for a side that was tipped as a possible relegation candidate.

There’s no doubt he has the potential and raw ability to be a top international keeper. But it’s a position where confidence can make or break a career. Maybe it was expecting too much for him to suddenly blossom as a PL keeper. I can see why he wanted to grab the opportunity, but it looks like he still has some learning to do and he’s maybe not in the ideal place to develop and fulfil his obvious potential. Would he have been better staying at City, establishing himself as number 2. learning from Eddison and getting games behind a decent defence in a winning team?

[pineapple stu]

There's no guarantee at all that he'd have been City's number 2 though

[Eirambler]

At worst he'd have got a Championship loan though, where he wouldn't be in the spotlight as much. Unfortunately, while it seemed a really good move for him at the time to go to Southampton, it hasn't worked out that way so far.

[pineapple stu]

He probably would.

I think what he has now is ok though. It's a learning curve. He's always had these blunders in him though - we've seen too many for Ireland, but they've happened at previous clubs too. He really needs to get them out of his system sooner rather than later.

If JR is trying to defend him by saying he's playing for a poor side though, I don't agree with that. He's part of that side, and as Stutts has said, he's played some games where a good keeper keeps you in it, and he hasn't done that.

I think it's ok to say he's been poor this season. Time is on his side

[ifk101]

I think it's ok to saying he is doing fine, recent wobbles aside - (although I haven't seen every minute he has played this season). He was a L1 keeper this time last season, and now he is a £12 million PL regular. At 20 years old, time is on his side - what difficulties he is facing now is part of the learning curve.

[ontheotherhand]

He's also had great games this season. He won't peak for a decade or more. Long way to go yet.

I go back on forth on whether Southampton was a good move though. I don't think it helps a young keeper if his defence isn't reliable. I'm not and never was a keeper at any proper level but if your defence is giving chances from irregular angles it can't help your decision making. Do you come out because your defender is liable to make an error? The partnership and trust is important I'd think. And he doesn't seem to have much of either. Of course that's two way but he started the season better and has regressed. He's not making saves he usually would. A good, experienced centre half ahead of him might have helped him adjust to the step up but Southampton seem to be going for a younger set up.

Interesting situation for Kenny now but he could play Kelleher and not upset Bazunu too much I think. He knows himself he isn't anywhere close to the finished article. Would like to see Kelleher in against France so he can face more shots and we can see more of him. Maybe put gave in against Latvia for a confidence boost if things haven't turned around for him by then. Although we could face as many against them to be fair.....

[pineapple stu]

He's also had great games this season.
Has he? (Genuine question)

Edit - whoscored give him an average rating of 6.51 for the season, better only than Sanchez at Brighton (6.50) and Travers (6.28). He's only got three games above 7.00, and the best is 7.52.

Henderson - of Forest, one of two sides to have conceded more than Southampton - has an average rating of 6.53, but has 6 games above 7.00, of three were above 8.00. That sounds more like a keeper about whom you could say he has had some great games this season.


I don't think it helps a young keeper if his defence isn't reliable. I'm not and never was a keeper at any proper level but if your defence is giving chances from irregular angles it can't help your decision making. Do you come out because your defender is liable to make an error? The partnership and trust is important I'd think.p
I'm curious why you think this doesn't apply the other way around?

Look at the penalty incident against Fulham. I don't know exactly what happened, but you could view it as a defender pointing at the keeper to stay back (maybe so he can head the ball back), but the keeper comes anyway. Now the defender is trying to track the ball and also work out where the keeper is so he can head it back to him (and not, say, into the net). Result - slight distraction, he lets the ball bounce, and the attacker is in.

I'm not saying that's what happened, but it's certainly a possibility which I don't think you're considering in automatically backing the keeper rather than the defenders.

[ontheotherhand]

Has he? (Genuine question)

Got a lot of praise for the win against Chelsea iirc. I haven't watched a lot to be fair though stu. LoI comes first. Going by Southampton fans reactions, highlight vids and reports mainly. Their fans seem to have turned on him a bit lately but were impressed early on. I think we might see ropey periods like this for a few seasons.

[ontheotherhand]

Has he? (Genuine question)

Edit - whoscored give him an average rating of 6.51 for the season, better only than Sanchez at Brighton (6.50) and Travers (6.28). He's only got three games above 7.00, and the best is 7.52.

Henderson - of Forest, one of two sides to have conceded more than Southampton - has an average rating of 6.53, but has 6 games above 7.00, of three were above 8.00. That sounds more like a keeper about whom you could say he has had some great games this season.


I'm curious why you think this doesn't apply the other way around?

Look at the penalty incident against Fulham. I don't know exactly what happened, but you could view it as a defender pointing at the keeper to stay back (maybe so he can head the ball back), but the keeper comes anyway. Now the defender is trying to track the ball and also work out where the keeper is so he can head it back to him (and not, say, into the net). Result - slight distraction, he lets the ball bounce, and the attacker is in.

I'm not saying that's what happened, but it's certainly a possibility which I don't think you're considering in automatically backing the keeper rather than the defenders.

No I take your point there Stu. Im just saying it probably isn't the best situation for a keeper learning his trade. If they are all inexperienced you're going to have confusion like the Fulham scenario. That's not exonerating Bazunu, it's just saying he might have been better off stepping up a level with a a settled defence ahead of him. Hes going to make mistakes as he learns. Like I said, he's nowhere close to the finished article. I'd still probably prefer him to be learning at EPL level but I said a few pages back that maybe a more gradual rise up the leagues would have been better. I suppose we will know in a few years.

[paul_oshea]

We should rename foot.ie to Irish football thesaurus. Where words, terms and phrases are replaced and mean something else. For example " error prone" becomes "learning curve". There are many more down through the years

There's some real good marketeers on this forum

[ontheotherhand]

We should rename foot.ie to Irish football thesaurus. Where words, terms and phrases are replaced and mean something else. For example " error prone" becomes "learning curve". There are many more down through the years

There's some real good marketeers on this forum

Or "realism" with "pessimism"?

If he was a striker or midfielder we'd all be expecting a few dips in form or, if you'd rather say he's been poor all year, that it would take a while to get up to the level required. He's been thrown right in unlike other positions who might be gradually introduced.

Worst case scenario he can go back and be player of the year at league 1 level and we still have Kelleher and Travers who are both on their own learning curves of course.

Let's see how the next season or three go.

[Jd2793]

his goalkeeping numbers have nose dived in recent weeks, hopefully he can improve.

[ifk101]

Look at the penalty incident against Fulham. I don't know exactly what happened, but you could view it as a defender pointing at the keeper to stay back (maybe so he can head the ball back), but the keeper comes anyway. Now the defender is trying to track the ball and also work out where the keeper is so he can head it back to him (and not, say, into the net). Result - slight distraction, he lets the ball bounce, and the attacker is in.

I'm not saying that's what happened, but it's certainly a possibility which I don't think you're considering in automatically backing the keeper rather than the defenders.

Looking at the penalty incident, you could also view it as Bazunu seeing the pointing and maintaining his position to catch the header back. Missing where in the highlights "the keeper comes anyway". What do you mean here - maybe you have a different camera angle than the highlights or were at the game? But from the highlights camera angle, the defender sees Bazunu's positioning, starts pointing to indicate he is heading the ball back (is there any other interpretation?), and Bazunu keeps his position to receive the header back.

The defender allows the ball to bounce to make the header back easier for himself, but panic sets in when he glances to his right and sees an attacker on rushing. The defender signals again at this point he is heading the ball back to Bazunu (is there any other interpretation?). But the important point here is that this shows without doubt he knows where Bazunu is positioned, a positioning that has not changed from the initial pointing, but the defender makes a complete hash of it all.

I'm saying that's what happened.

[pineapple stu]

I'm saying that's what happened.
Nice to know the poster who thinks Buffon would ship as many goals in the LSL as a regular LSL keeper knows it all about goalkeeping now.

It may well be what happened, for sure. But my point in using that example was to indicate a way the keeper could cause uncertainty in the defence, which otoh seemed to be suggesting was a one-way street going the other way

[ifk101]

Nice to know the poster who thinks Buffon would ship as many goals in the LSL as a regular LSL keeper knows it all about goalkeeping now.

Did you save many on the beach this summer?

[Stuttgart88]

Ah lads, the penalty incident was a complete hash by the centre back. I think it might even have come off his shoulder.

I posted in the Kelleher thread about how confidence and trust affects a keeper and yes it goes both ways but it looks to me like Southampton are lacking a leader in the back 4 which would be a big help.

[ontheotherhand]

Just watched it back there. Yeah that one's not on Bazunu at all for me. Not only does the centre half point to where he's going to put it (or if it isn't a point he is telling Bazunu to stay because he has the ball covered), he then loses sight of the ball completely in his panic as the attacker closes in. He could still have headed it back (or cleared it wide) as the attacker goes past him trying to read the pass back but it ends up hitting him while he is looking elsewhere and bouncing into no mans land between all three of them. He then charges into Bazunu's attempt to clear it while also fouling the attacker. It could have the Benny Hill theme behind it.

[pineapple stu]

Well the point of my post was to give an example where a goalkeeper could be causing panic in the defence, to counter otoh's post which suggested that it was only defenders who unnerved keepers. (Which point was taken and all!)

[ontheotherhand]

Listen stu, your point using an example that doesn't quite work is still well taken against the point I wasn't making to begin with.....

I think we agree that keepers can cause even good defenders all sorts of issues. I wasn't suggesting otherwise. I lived through Tomer Chenchinski!

[pineapple stu]

Listen stu, your point using an example that doesn't quite work is still well taken against the point I wasn't making to begin with.....
Well we only know this because you clarified your original post in response to mine though!

I think the willingness to brush off weaknesses or faults because a player is Irish - and this isn't just in this thread - is something that still happens a bit here.

[ontheotherhand]

Well we only know this because you clarified your original post in response to mine though!

I think the willingness to brush off weaknesses or faults because a player is Irish - and this isn't just in this thread - is something that still happens a bit here.

I think I was quite clear to begin with thank you very much.....

Yeah of course we do. We live in hope Stu....some of us anyway. Now maybe not enough hope to think Rocco Vata should be called up already!

I think Bazunu has the ingredients to be great but the road to greatness will be rocky. It's been a very quick rise up the leagues and he started from a really low level. He may even go down a level to come back up. Who knows, maybe he's just being exposed now but at 20 I think it's a bit too early to be saying that.

[ifk101]

I think the willingness to brush off weaknesses or faults because a player is Irish - and this isn't just in this thread - is something that still happens a bit here.

50% of the posts in the thread are from you. If you remove your posts (which is recommended as a year ago you were suggesting he'd be Portsmouth's third choice keeper), you'll see there're plenty of posts acknowledging mistakes and need for improvement.

In the meantime, Bazunu has advanced from a Man City academy player with the thread's start in August 2020 to his current standing as a £12million PL regular. And he is still 20 years old.

Do you have a personal issue with Bazunu? (genuine question)

[pineapple stu]

Do I have a personal issue with him? Nope. No more than I have a personal issue with the forwards I don't think are going to be 45-goal international strikers.

I do have an issue with the bias that all our players are great and mistakes are everyone else's fault (hyperbole there for emphasis). I think you can acknowledge his progress while noting errors (as I've tried to do - I've more than once said his move to Southampton was a brave one and the correct one)

And obviously I've an issue with people thinking Buffon is an LSL level keeper...

[ifk101]

Do I have a personal issue with him? Nope. No more than I have a personal issue with the forwards I don't think are going to be 45-goal international strikers.

I do have an issue with the bias that all our players are great and mistakes are everyone else's fault (hyperbole there for emphasis). I think you can acknowledge his progress while noting errors (as I've tried to do - I've more than once said his move to Southampton was a brave one and the correct one)

And obviously I've an issue with people thinking Buffon is an LSL level keeper...

Forums have broad spectrums of opinions from the overly pessimistic to the overly optimistic. And it perfectly fine to call out these extremes when this occurs. But you are cluttering the thread playing police – 50% of the posts are from you. Chill out lad. If you acknowledge that keepers peak at a later age in their careers than outfield players (Buffon is still playing at 44 (and not on the beach)), perhaps this self-perceived overly optimistic forum bias in relation to the potential career trajectory of a 20-year old Bazunu has some merit?

[pineapple stu]

But why not call out downsides when they occur, rather than gloss over them with "He's playing behind a bad defence"? Even otoh (who I replied to) acknowledged that point in the spirit it was intended.

And nobody's playing police (well, maybe you are with your posts...); I'm not telling anyone they have to agree with me. Well, except about Buffon being better than LSL standard, but you'd be daft to think that in fairness.

[irishfan86]

Bazunu has the raw ingredients. We've seen it for ourselves with Ireland. The problem with Southampton is that it's a team full of players with raw ingredients/potential, without as many established pros to settle things down when things get messy.

I also think the Southampton backline has been exposed by poor quality at the defensive midfield position.

I believe Lavia's return for today's match will protect the backline and by extension Bazunu. A stabilizing win against Forest would do a world of good for Southampton/Bazunu and I'm hopeful that happens today.

[Eirambler]

Another defensive shambles in front of Bazunu and Southampton are 1-0 down once again.

[ontheotherhand]

Watching the game here. Southampton's defence...is...just awful. They set Forest through on goal from a position near the halfway line with 0 danger.

Bazunu not totally at fault for the goal that resulted from it but he should have just gotten across the line to at least have a chance at the shot instead of trying to get to the cross I think.

[JR89]

Southampton were a shambles in the second half of last season so it's no surprise to see them continue where they left off this season.

Now they've got the wish dot com version of Sean Dyche in as manager hoping to turn things around. At least they might have someone that could get them promoted from the championship next season.

[tommy_c12000]

Yes this is something I forgot to ask about. How is Nathan Jones managing in the premier league? He has done nothing to warrant this. Shambolic decision by Southampton

[irishfan86]

Bazunu has the raw ingredients. We've seen it for ourselves with Ireland. The problem with Southampton is that it's a team full of players with raw ingredients/potential, without as many established pros to settle things down when things get messy.

I also think the Southampton backline has been exposed by poor quality at the defensive midfield position.

I believe Lavia's return for today's match will protect the backline and by extension Bazunu. A stabilizing win against Forest would do a world of good for Southampton/Bazunu and I'm hopeful that happens today.

Well, I guess I called that wrong -- I underestimated Southampton's ability to self-sabotage by using their last men back to botch it.

Honestly, Bazunu is in a very tough position for any 'keeper, let alone one as young as he is. He is not the problem.

[ifk101]

But why not call out downsides when they occur, rather than gloss over them with "He's playing behind a bad defence"? Even otoh (who I replied to) acknowledged that point in the spirit it was intended.

The bit highlighted in bold. He is playing behind a bad defence. And no, the defence is not bad because Bazunu is Irish and/ or Bazunu is emitting a negative panic aura on the team.

As emphasis, and if watching Southampton play isn’t evidence enough, in an article titled “Armel Bella-Kotchap's honest Southampton admission ahead of 'big game' vs Nottingham Forest”, the defender says



It’s difficult because we conceded two goals from set-pieces,” Bella-Kotchap told the Southampton club website. “We talked about them and we want to improve that, but we conceded two easy goals and that cannot happen in the situation we are in. We have to defend properly.
…..
After conceding the [winning] goal it was like a disaster and it’s difficult for us in that situation and we have to defend properly as we said, and hopefully we can do better against Nottingham Forest.
https://www.hampshirelive.news/sport/football/football-news/bella-kotchap-southampton-nottingham-forest-7986465?int_source=nba


Oh dear. Your pointing friend didn’t get the team memo.


And nobody's playing police (well, maybe you are with your posts...); I'm not telling anyone they have to agree with me. Well, except about Buffon being better than LSL standard, but you'd be daft to think that in fairness.
Keep trying. :-)

[ontheotherhand]

To be fair Stu is just pointing out actual errors. There does seem to bit a bit more scrutiny on Bazunu than, let's say Collins though. Both are having similar seasons with very ropey performances and their club fans on their backs a bit after high expectations.
Collins plays outfield though so we seem to accept that he will make mistakes as he learns the new level. Nobody is calling him error prone...yet.

The reality is these lads are a work in progress. They have the potential to be very good but it's not happening overnight.

[paul_oshea]

I watched the full game yesterday, something I definitely wont be doing again this year, watching southampton in full that is. Bazunu had 2 things to do all game and one ended up a goal. The whole defence is so shaky, theres panic and fear everytime the opposition attacks. I dont think its fair to blame Bazunu solely theres many players contributing to it but he definitely could be doing better and a good, experienced keeper would be marshalling and cajoling his defence together better than he is doing - thats probably my biggest negative about him.

[paul_oshea]

To be fair Stu is just pointing out actual errors. There does seem to bit a bit more scrutiny on Bazunu than, let's say Collins though. Both are having similar seasons with very ropey performances and their club fans on their backs a bit after high expectations.
Collins plays outfield though so we seem to accept that he will make mistakes as he learns the new level. Nobody is calling him error prone...yet.

The reality is these lads are a work in progress. They have the potential to be very good but it's not happening overnight.

THe only (young/youth)person I ever saw to cut out those type of "Error Prone" mistakes was Richard Dunne and I'd put that down to application and lifestyle more than anything else. Once that was sorted his concentration and performances improved. Gary breen started his career and finished it the same way i.e. capable of a dopey lapse in concentration or just stupid mistake.

Collins and Bazunu don't strike me as the guys who have the same application problems as Dunne.

That said Bazunu is very young to be playing in front of such a shaky defence in a pressure cooker environment. Hopefully his future isn't mapped out in scars.

[Stuttgart88]

There does seem to bit a bit more scrutiny on Bazunu than, let's say Collins though. Including from yourself above imho! I think he was totally blameless for the goal. He covered the near post which is his main job. The square ball just took him out of the picture totally.

As an Irish footy chat site of course we'll be highly subjective in our assessment of our players and I think there's more scrutiny on Bazunu because he is genuinely competing with one other strong candidate for only one available spot. Collins is one of a few CB options for three spots and I'd say there's near unanimity here that one of those should be Collins'.

Last season whenever I was looking at a Championship game I watched the goalkeepers a lot. I was trying to imagine the comments that any of the goalkeeping performances I saw would have attracted on foot.ie if the keeper in question was Kelleher or Bazunu and I was thinking we'd all mainly be waxing lyrical. Why? Simply because the standard of goalkeeping in the Championship is generally of a very high standard and most of these guys are seasoned professionals. Try this next time you're watching the Championship: imagine the keepers at either end are one of our main two and ask yourself what your impression would be. The difference (hopefully) being the ceiling that our two have is potentially higher and ours are also more in the modern goalkeeping mould than many in the Championship.

Last season I also watched Illan Meslier at Leeds and imagined the same situation i.e., if he was ours what would we be saying? He's indisputably a very talented keeper but at his worst he's let in soft goals and made unforced errors that would alarm us if he was ours and would be dissected to the nth degree here, and which would probably cost a senior goalkeeper his place in a PL team. But Leeds believe in him and I expect they'll be rewarded for doing so. In fact based on the France number 2’s uninspiring performance against Tunisia I’d say Meslier might soon be the French number one if Lloris retires.

[ontheotherhand]

THe only (young/youth)person I ever saw to cut out those type of "Error Prone" mistakes was Richard Dunne and I'd put that down to application and lifestyle more than anything else. Once that was sorted his concentration and performances improved. Gary breen started his career and finished it the same way i.e. capable of a dopey lapse in concentration or just stupid mistake.

Collins and Bazunu don't strike me as the guys who have the same application problems as Dunne.

That said Bazunu is very young to be playing in front of such a shaky defence in a pressure cooker environment. Hopefully his future isn't mapped out in scars.

Fingers crossed the two lads can give us as much as 63 cap, World Cup qualifying, Transfer Rumour of the Year Award recipient, error prone Gary Breen.

[ontheotherhand]

Including from yourself above imho! I think he was totally blameless for the goal. He covered the near post which is his main job. The square ball just took him out of the picture totally.

As an Irish footy chat site of course we'll be highly subjective in our assessment of our players and I think there's more scrutiny on Bazunu because he is genuinely competing with one other strong candidate for only one available spot. Collins is one of a few CB options for three spots and I'd say there's near unanimity here that one of those should be Collins'.

Last season whenever I was looking at a Championship game I watched the goalkeepers a lot. I was trying to imagine the comments that any of the goalkeeping performances I saw would have attracted on foot.ie if the keeper in question was Kelleher or Bazunu and I was thinking we'd all be waxing lyrical. Why? Simply because generally the standard of goalkeeping in the Championship is of a very high standard and most of these guys are seasoned professionals. Try this next time you're watching the Championship: imagine the keepers at either end are one of these two and ask yourself what your impression would be. The difference (hopefully) being the ceiling that our two have is potentially higher and ours are also more in the modern goalkeeping mould than many in the Championship.

Last season I also watched Illan Meslier at Leeds and imagined the same situation i.e., if he was ours what would we be saying? He's indisputably a very talented keeper but at his worst he's let in soft goals and made unforced errors that would alarm us if he was ours and would be dissected to the nth degree here, and which would probably cost a senior goalkeeper his place in a PL team. But Leeds believe in him and I expect they'll be rewarded for doing so. In fact based on the France number 2’s uninspiring performance against Tunisia I’d say Meslier might soon be the French number one if Lloris retires.

Well said. Maybe I'm being overly critical. I just think he had no chance at reaching the cut back so would have been better off getting across to cover the shot. But I'd have to see it again to see if the ball was kicked before he dove or if he was gambling on it being reachable.....to do that would mean watching some of that game again though and I don't think I can take it....it was wretched. Paul and I agree there.

[Stuttgart88]

Wretched at both ends too. Imagine what we'd be saying if Ché Adams was ours!

[elatedscum]

THe only (young/youth)person I ever saw to cut out those type of "Error Prone" mistakes was Richard Dunne and I'd put that down to application and lifestyle more than anything else. Once that was sorted his concentration and performances improved. Gary breen started his career and finished it the same way i.e. capable of a dopey lapse in concentration or just stupid mistake.

Jamie Carragher, John Terry? Both made plenty of mistakes as young defenders.

Keepers and centre halves are a whole other story but in terms of errors Manuel Neuer made plenty of mistakes in his Schalke days, especially early on, around 20-22. By 26, he was probably the best goalkeeper in the world

[paul_oshea]

Jamie Carragher, John Terry? Both made plenty of mistakes as young defenders.

Keepers and centre halves are a whole other story but in terms of errors Manuel Neuer made plenty of mistakes in his Schalke days, especially early on, around 20-22. By 26, he was probably the best goalkeeper in the world

I should have qualified but I thought it was obvious; Irish players.

[ifk101]

Last season I also watched Illan Meslier at Leeds and imagined the same situation i.e., if he was ours what would we be saying? He's indisputably a very talented keeper but at his worst he's let in soft goals and made unforced errors that would alarm us if he was ours and would be dissected to the nth degree here, and which would probably cost a senior goalkeeper his place in a PL team. But Leeds believe in him and I expect they'll be rewarded for doing so. In fact based on the France number 2’s uninspiring performance against Tunisia I’d say Meslier might soon be the French number one if Lloris retires.

Lloris has a mistake in him, now that you mention him. And he is one of the more decorated keepers in the game. I'd be happy if Lloris doesn't retire before we play them.

[Stuttgart88]

I'd be happier if the guy who played against Tunisia played! He looked awful. Lloris had a good World Cup overall imho, but agree he has a mistake in him.

[ontheotherhand]

I should have qualified but I thought it was obvious; Irish players.

Does Irishness mean you can't learn from mistakes? That would explain a lot about my life.

[CraftyToePoke]

Jamie Carragher, John Terry? Both made plenty of mistakes as young defenders.

Keepers and centre halves are a whole other story but in terms of errors Manuel Neuer made plenty of mistakes in his Schalke days, especially early on, around 20-22. By 26, he was probably the best goalkeeper in the world

John Stones, walking brain fart at Everton & well beyond. Managing to forge a career of some sort though ....
Really not sure whether they are Irish or not would come into it or why it would.

[Eirambler]

Fingers crossed the two lads can give us as much as 63 cap, World Cup qualifying, Transfer Rumour of the Year Award recipient, error prone Gary Breen.

My honest, but probably controversial opinion on Gary Breen. If he broke through now he'd be a Championship player and he'd be lucky to get 10 caps for Ireland. He benefitted from being around at a time when we had a good team but were weak at centre back, and his legacy is enhanced by his World Cup goal and the famous chant/song about him.

[CraftyToePoke]

My honest, but probably controversial opinion on Gary Breen. If he broke through now he'd be a Championship player and he'd be lucky to get 10 caps for Ireland. He benefitted from being around at a time when we had a good team but were weak at centre back, and his legacy is enhanced by his World Cup goal and the famous chant/song about him.

Possibly, even probably, but so what ? Those squads were littered with similar examples. Would Niall Quinn's skillset make him an Arsenal / Man City player today ? Not a hope, or even a PL one. But they did what they did in green & had the careers they had.