Gavin Bazunu G Standard Liege (loan from Southampton) b.2002

[ifk101]

What, you mean the two penalties? Are penalties soft goals for a keeper to concede now? Weird.


The soft goals are more a team issue rather than specific to one player, no?

Two avoidable penalties that led to goals. Soft goals. Team issue. Not difficult to understand really.

[pineapple stu]

The penalties weren't soft goals for the keeper.

The goals against Leeds, Brighton, Lincoln, Armenia, Palace (I think it was), etc, were all soft goals from the keeper's point of view. Others are to blame for most of them too of course, but the keeper takes blame there, and that's what shows up in the keeper-specific xG stats.

Not difficult to understand really.

[ifk101]

Others are to blame for most of them too of course

Weird.

Southampton are conceding soft goals with or without Bazunu in the team. See the goal conceded against Blackpool if you need a non-penalty example to help.

[SkStu]

Ah, ok - two awards in the one year. Teensy bit cheating (do you add in the Dublin Pompey Supporters' Club award, if God forbid there actually is one :)), but can see where you're coming from.

But my argument is that -


I don't think that's weak?

Maybe I'm guilty of reading an argument that wasn't there. On the face of it, of course neither situation is ideal. I agreed with that basic premise. I don't recall too many saying that the alternatives are minimal (Travers is also viable) or that its just about playing time (playing time, however, indicates expected performance level and even 6/10 gives you a better baseline than 0/10).

However, even if you didnt say it in the most recent post, you have been fairly vocal in making a case over the last while that the Irish jersey should be Kelleher's. I can't find a way to agree with that based on everything we know and have seen about the two individuals who are most in competition.

[pineapple stu]

I do think Kelleher should start. I think Bazunu has been poor all season, including internationally; he was at fault for both goals against Armenia. Maybe it's a case Bazunu is definitely in poor form and Kelleher we don't really know about, so there's that hope. I think there's a lot of rewriting of just how poor Bazunu has been this season tbh. (And yes, he's 21 and still developing and yadda yadda yadda - but that's a medium term argument and not really a consideration for two weeks' time)

tommyc (post 633) said "we will take a lucky Bazunu over anything else we have currently (which is minimal)" and ifk101 said "The most convincing argument for a player's inclusion in the team is playing time." Both of those points are nonsense for me. Yes, Bazunu got lucky against Leicester, but he hasn't been lucky over the season as his stats show. And the other comment is plainly daft.

I'll also add I don't know why this topic gets people so het up that you see the sort of personal abuse posts we've seen on this page from Kingdom (very out of character in fairness) and ifk101.

[SkStu]

(I'm definitely not het up on this)

Why do you think Kelleher should start? What is the argument for him? To be fair, its easy to make the argument against the guy who is in the fishbowl but at the same time you have to be able to make an argument for the alternative and thats the bit i have yet to see in a convincing way. "He deserves it because hes being coached by a top class team" or "He deserves it because he is back up to the best in the world" is also the type of vacuous stuff that should cut no mustard here either. I do kind of get the attraction though - there is a saying here that the most popular player for the sask roughriders is the back-up quarterback. Its human nature in a way but it doesnt usually work out as simple as that.

If there has truly been a tendency to rewrite Bazunu's performance this year (not sure I fully agree with that - a few of his supporters have been very open about some of his performances), that goes both ways. There is another group who are silent after his good performances but are first to the trough when he makes an error or two in a game. And swticheroo when it comes to the small sample size we have for Kelleher (silent on the errors, talking up the good, enhancing the ordinary).

(FWIW, I dont think Kingdom was truly calling you a f-tard, more the source)

[paul_oshea]

Tbf I dont think Kingdom was having a go at you, more the people you quoted from PS. He talks a lot of nonsense but he doesnt ever stoop to that level.

I think both players are fighting it out to start on the bench. There are microcosmic examples of Bazunus issues because he's in a team with a shaky defense and fighting for survival - kelleher isnt even playing. All that said, they've proven in their appearances for Ireland facets of their game that are clearly not World class and I'm not sure gaining more first team appearances in the Premiership will rectify that. The jurys still out on that one.

[nigel-harps1954]

Kelleher has played 4 games in the PL. In total. The most convincing argument for a player's inclusion in the team is playing time. If Kenny has serious concerns about Bazunu's form, he'd have to give Max O'Leary fair consideration before turning to Kelleher.

Surprised a few more haven't picked up on this. Easily the best comment of the lot. A goalkeeper absolutely has to be playing regularly. Kelleher, for me, has definitely dropped down the pecking order further with O'Leary now playing regularly in the Championship.

Chat of Festy Ebosele in another thread went down the route of "you can't pick a player who has played 58 minutes of action in Serie A this season", to "Kelleher should be playing" despite not having a single minute of Premier League football this season. Two EFL Cup games and one FA Cup game is the sum total of his action in 2022/23 season.

There's even an argument for him not to make the squad altogether, given Bazunu, Travers and O'Leary have all seen something resembling regular game time this season between Premier League and Championship.

[pineapple stu]

There's even an argument for him not to make the squad altogether, given Bazunu, Travers and O'Leary have all seen something resembling regular game time this season between Premier League and Championship.
Ah there's not. Would you stop.


Chat of Festy Ebosele in another thread went down the route of "you can't pick a player who has played 58 minutes of action in Serie A this season", to "Kelleher should be playing" despite not having a single minute of Premier League football this season.
Yep - because there's other options to Festy at the moment. A guy playing week-in-week-out for a promotion-chasing Championship team (who's still not in the senior squad) was one example. That's in addition to Coleman, Brady, McClean, Doherty, etc. Festy is a youth prospect at a mid-table Serie A side. I don't think that's quite the same thing as a comparing sub keeper at one of the biggest clubs in the world against someone really struggling for form at the other end of the table. We're much more stuck for options in nets.


(I'm definitely not het up on this)
You're not, for sure. That's acknowledged alright. I noted the two who I thought were (in the past page anyway).


Why do you think Kelleher should start? What is the argument for him? To be fair, its easy to make the argument against the guy who is in the fishbowl but at the same time you have to be able to make an argument for the alternative
The argument is that Bazunu is having a really poor season and is badly off form, while Kelleher's generally looked more solid for us at international level (even if you want to pin the Ukraine goal on him). A third tier PotY award doesn't really matter here. It's not a great argument, I know - I've noted many times that this isn't ideal for anyone. Call it the default lesser of two evils.


(FWIW, I dont think Kingdom was truly calling you a f-tard, more the source)
I'm happy to buy into the xG idea - with the caveat that I'm sure it's not a 100% exact science, but it probably is a good indicator of performance. So on that basis, it's hard to argue that Kingdom's comment that "Any fan that quotes XG stats in analysis of a players performance is an absolute ****tard in my eyes" was anything other than personal.

[Stuttgart88]

Max O'Leary was beaten at his near post from outside the box on Saturday! Didn't look good but there might have been a deflection.

[third policeman]

Did I say he wasn't? My point was that we do have options, contrary to what was being suggested.

[third policeman]

There's even an argument for him not to make the squad altogether, given Bazunu, Travers and O'Leary have all seen something resembling regular game time this season between Premier League and Championship.

If I thought that was a serious point I'd be worried. Seriously, if playing time on its own - over either form or ability - determined selection, we'd be looking at a severely weakened and completely unbalanced squad.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I've made this point before. We as fans are very short termised. If that's a word. We see errors for a keeper or any player, we see them dropped etc and start to worry but this happens to all players. Even our greats. Using a keeper example. Given was benched on a few different occasions during his club career and had spells of bad form with poor errors but he never let us down when he played (except maybe at the end). Overall his career was outstanding. Looking back on Bazunu in 10-15 years and no one will remember this spell. Let's calm down and let these youngsters develop and fight for an Irish spot.

[WexCar.]

Bazunu is the incumbent so the starting spot is his to lose and imo anyone displacing him has to clearly outperform him. Have any of the other goalkeepers outperformed him this year? I don't think so, he is not having a great season but at the same time international football is a lower standard than the PL.

On the other side of the fence,
If you are of the view that it is between CK and GB then you need to ask yourself how important playing time is in this specific situation. CK has never been more than a backup goalkeeper but that may actually be an argument in his favour as he is used to sitting for extended periods and only playing a game here and there.

[pineapple stu]

I've made this point before. We as fans are very short termised.
I think while that's true, it's hard not to be short-termist when considering who would start in two weeks' time.

How good Bazunu (or Kelleher or Travers or whoever) become in 10 years' time isn't really relevant in this instance.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I think while that's true, it's hard not to be short-termist when considering who would start in two weeks' time.

How good Bazunu (or Kelleher or Travers or whoever) become in 10 years' time isn't really relevant in this instance.

You pick who hasn't let you down. Bazunu is in the jersey and he hasn't let us down so he gets picked. For someone to usurp him, they would have to be showing great form and noticeable appearances. That isn't happening so it's an easy decision. Same when we had Randolph or Forde, not outstanding but solid and no one passed them out.

[pineapple stu]

He was poor for both goals against Armenia. Meant we went from being ok (if lethargic) to bricking it in the space of two minutes.

Is that not letting us down?

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

He was poor for both goals against Armenia. Meant we went from being ok (if lethargic) to bricking it in the space of two minutes.

Is that not letting us down?

Mistakes happen. Robbie Keane missed sitters, you still wouldn't drop him. Bazunu has done far more good than bad in an Irish shirt. So at 20, he will keep the shirt until someone out performs him at club level. That ain't happening yet although I have no reason to have doubts about Kelleher either.

[pineapple stu]

But there's a lot of mistakes, especially lately though. It's a real worry form-wise and confidence-wise. It's a worry too that Kelleher/Travers aren't getting game, but that doesn't mean you can turn a blind eye to form.

[John83]

Mod warning: lads, anyone using any terms ending in "tard" can take March off from the site. Be civil, or be gone.

[elatedscum]

Point taken, Colonel Mustard

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

But there's a lot of mistakes, especially lately though. It's a real worry form-wise and confidence-wise. It's a worry too that Kelleher/Travers aren't getting game, but that doesn't mean you can turn a blind eye to form.

Not for Ireland! He could concede howlers every game for Southampton if he wants, as long as he performs for us. Obviously, if his Ireland performances turn bad then we look to replace him but for now this is a no brainer. I think he feels more comfortable with Egan, Collins and I Shea in front of him than the Southampton defence.

[pineapple stu]

No mistakes for Ireland?

Hospital pass to Hendrick for the penalty in Portugal
Fumbling a simple shot onto the post in the same match
Dropping a corner against Azerbaijan when we'd finally gotten back on level terms
Flapping a shot back across goal in Baku
Nearly getting sent off against Qatar (the penalty that was, rightly, overturned as it was outside the box)
Being bailed out by Coleman against Luxembourg, again after another rush to the edge of the box

That's all in the last WC campaign. And add in Armenia as well then and it's far from a no-brainer

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

No mistakes for Ireland?

Hospital pass to Hendrick for the penalty in Portugal
Fumbling a simple shot onto the post in the same match
Dropping a corner against Azerbaijan when we'd finally gotten back on level terms
Flapping a shot back across goal in Baku
Nearly getting sent off against Qatar (the penalty that was, rightly, overturned as it was outside the box)
Being bailed out by Coleman against Luxembourg, again after another rush to the edge of the box

That's all in the last WC campaign. And add in Armenia as well then and it's far from a no-brainer

You said there's a lot of mistakes, especially lately. That's for Southampton. For Ireland he's been very good. The odd error but overall he's been valuable to us considering how bad we've been. So yes, it's a no-brainer.

[tetsujin1979]

No mistakes for Ireland?

Hospital pass to Hendrick for the penalty in Portugal
Fumbling a simple shot onto the post in the same match
Dropping a corner against Azerbaijan when we'd finally gotten back on level terms
Flapping a shot back across goal in Baku
Nearly getting sent off against Qatar (the penalty that was, rightly, overturned as it was outside the box)
Being bailed out by Coleman against Luxembourg, again after another rush to the edge of the box

That's all in the last WC campaign. And add in Armenia as well then and it's far from a no-brainer
Bailed out by McClean after making the same mistake and rushing out far too early

[ifk101]

Max O'Leary was beaten at his near post from outside the box on Saturday! Didn't look good but there might have been a deflection.

I’d pick Bazunu ahead of O’Leary, xG stats aside, but as a Championship regular he deserves fair consideration. He signed a new contract with Bristol City recently and thought these comments are quite apt to the Bazunu debate


"I'm really pleased that he's decided to stay with us," manager Nigel Pearson told BBC Radio Bristol.
"It gives him a chance now to push his own career on. I think that's important.
"I think his presence has been really good since he's been in the side. Mistakes happen and sometimes it's how you observe how goalkeepers in particular are able to deal with coming back from mistakes.
"I think Max continues to be exceptionally positive and visible and I love that about what he is."
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/64789839

Quite novel this acceptance of mistakes from a person whose job is potentially on the line. Maybe Pearson needs to read message boards.

[Jd2793]

christ this thread has gone mad. kelleher not making the squad over a lad at bristol city ffs. would ye cop onto yerselves lads.

[ifk101]

Three goalies in the squad. Would expect Travers at more risk than Kelleher. Nothing unreasonable in giving O’Leary fair consideration.

[seanfhear]

christ this thread has gone mad. kelleher not making the squad over a lad at bristol city ffs. would ye cop onto yerselves lads.
What has Kelleher done lately to deserve to be in the squad ?

Not playing ! ! !

[Jd2793]

What has Kelleher done lately to deserve to be in the squad ?

Not playing ! ! !

complete nonsense talk. dropping your 2nd choice gk (he'll probably start v latvia) for a lad who'll be 3rd choice is madness in anyones book

[Jd2793]

randolph was 1st choice in 20/21 when he was a sub gk for west ham. he was a sub in 15/16 and irelands no1 in that time aswell.

[seanfhear]

randolph was 1st choice in 20/21 when he was a sub gk for west ham. he was a sub in 15/16 and irelands no1 in that time aswell.
Did we have any other serious option at the time ?

[seanfhear]

complete nonsense talk. dropping your 2nd choice gk (he'll probably start v latvia) for a lad who'll be 3rd choice is madness in anyones bookIt's time ( well, next season now, I suppose ) to go and compete at a club where he has a realistic chance of being the number 1 goal-keeper.

It will be interesting to see if there is much interest, and where it is from, when the next transfer / loan season opens ?

[Jd2793]

Did we have any other serious option at the time ?

people want kelleher OUT of the squad, when in the past we've played GK's as our no1s who arent getting club game time. why is o'leary all of a sudden better than Kelleher? OKelleher is bound to have interest in the summer. he should go and i'd expect him to want to go. a loan is pointless, time to get a permanent move.

westwood was playing regularly in 2015/16 , randolph wasnt. yet randolph was no1.

[seanfhear]

people want kelleher OUT of the squad, when in the past we've played GK's as our no1s who arent getting club game time. why is o'leary all of a sudden better than Kelleher? OKelleher is bound to have interest in the summer. he should go and i'd expect him to want to go. a loan is pointless, time to get a permanent move.

westwood was playing regularly in 2015/16 , randolph wasnt. yet randolph was no1.
I'd say the Westwood thing was probably more of an O'Neill / Westwood thing. I don't think they were big fans of one another.

[Jd2793]

I'd say the Westwood thing was probably more of an O'Neill / Westwood thing. I don't think they were big fans of one another.

elliot had 22 starts in the championship that same season so i dont know what to say to the above statement but im sure you'll come back with some inane response

[seanfhear]

elliot had 22 starts in the championship that same season so i dont know what to say to the above statement but im sure you'll come back with some inane response I assume Randolf was kept in Goal because he had not let us down which is pretty much as Bazunu has done.

[Jd2793]

I assume Randolf was kept in Goal because he had not let us down which is pretty much as Bazunu has done.

and when has kelleher left us down to be dropped out of the squad for the 4th choice GK?

[pineapple stu]

You said there's a lot of mistakes, especially lately. That's for Southampton. For Ireland he's been very good. The odd error but overall he's been valuable to us considering how bad we've been. So yes, it's a no-brainer.
Even though for Ireland I've listed a long line of errors?

[seanfhear]

and when has kelleher left us down to be dropped out of the squad for the 4th choice GK?
Kelleher has never been the Irish Number 1 for any long period of time.

I think it's time that Kelleher spent a pro-longed period of time in goal some-where, to see if he can be a number 1 goal-keeper ( at a decent level )

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Even though for Ireland I've listed a long line of errors?

You said especially lately, for a 20 year old that must mean the recent past. So that would mean the Southampton mistakes. Like I said, he's made a few errors for us but in a poor performing team he's been very good. I'm sure if you dissected every players performance you'd find the odd error, especially someone so young.

[SkStu]

It is gone a bit crazy if we are really suggesting that Kelleher should be dropped for O'Leary. Kelleher is clearly our #2 keeper. There is no way he drops to #4.

[third policeman]

The "Kelleher out" thing is only the lunatic fringe of the Bazunu lobby. The easiest way to build an irrefutable case for Bazunu is for Kelleher not to exist, or at least not be in the squad. I have absolutely nothing against Bazunu and think he's a keeper with prodigious natural ability and promise, but this debate seems to inspire increasingly polarised polemics, mainly directed at Kelleher. I'd be massively surprised if Kelleher is not a first choice keeper at a mid-table PL side next season, and equally surprised if he doesn't have a decent international career, competing with Bazunu maybe in a similar situation to Clemence and Shilton for England back in the day.

[elatedscum]

Bazunu is the incumbent


Kelleher has never been the Irish Number 1 for any long period of time.

I think it's time that Kelleher spent a pro-longed period of time in goal some-where, to see if he can be a number 1 goal-keeper ( at a decent level )

He did play 7 of 10 games in 2022, missing 2 games with a hamstring injury and being on the bench for the friendly against Norway.

We conceded 5 in Kelleher’s 7 games and 6 in Bazunu’s 3 games. It’s clearly not an issue for Kelleher to step in, even if he’s not playing regularly

[Stuttgart88]

In fairness I could have kept a clean sheet against Qatar that day! Lithuania(?) too. Point taken but not fully like for like I think. Each was really frustrating because I wanted a good look at him and he barely touched the ball.

But of course he's capable.

[ifk101]

The "Kelleher out" thing is only the lunatic fringe of the Bazunu lobby. The easiest way to build an irrefutable case for Bazunu is for Kelleher not to exist, or at least not be in the squad. I have absolutely nothing against Bazunu and think he's a keeper with prodigious natural ability and promise, but this debate seems to inspire increasingly polarised polemics, mainly directed at Kelleher. I'd be massively surprised if Kelleher is not a first choice keeper at a mid-table PL side next season, and equally surprised if he doesn't have a decent international career, competing with Bazunu maybe in a similar situation to Clemence and Shilton for England back in the day.

He's 24, has played four league games to date in his career so far and is unlikely to play for his club again this season. And you'd be massively surprised if he is not a first choice keeper at a mid-table PL team this time next season? I think at this stage it is clear he wants to be at Liverpool, maybe pushing to be Liverpool's nominated first choice for (all) cup games is a more reasonable/ achievable aim for next season. Lunatic fringe :-)

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Relax lads. We have these 2 goalkeepers for the next 15 years. Both have the potential to be top class. Bazunu is there for now but it will be a battle with Kelleher for more than a decade. And a new keeper will probably come on the scene as well.

[Razors left peg]

Kelleher is turning into the Jesse Lingard of goalkeepers, he'll be 32 and people will still be talking about his potential!

Im joking, but he is getting to the point where he has to go prove himself. I took the original comment that he could be left out of squad as tongue in cheek, but if we are still in the same situation this time next year he will risk being left out legitimately. There was people saying it was ridiculous when Randolph started getting left out of squads after he decided to take the bench option at West Ham, if Kelleher doesnt show soon that he can be a real goalkeeper playing every week then he is going to have to accept players playing will be ahead of him. If he was back up to a good goalkeeper at Everton for example would he be getting the same love as he does with amount of Liverpool fans there are in Ireland.

[pineapple stu]

You said especially lately, for a 20 year old that must mean the recent past. So that would mean the Southampton mistakes. Like I said, he's made a few errors for us but in a poor performing team he's been very good. I'm sure if you dissected every players performance you'd find the odd error, especially someone so young.
He only played three internationals in the last 15 months (and conceded two very soft goals in that time). So while I am largely pointing out the Southampton mistakes, there's been enough for Ireland too that I don't see that the problem is the defence he's playing behind.

This isn't an "odd error", as you suggest. It's a fairly big error every other game or so.

And yes, he's young. But the game is in two weeks.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

He only played three internationals in the last 15 months (and conceded two very soft goals in that time). So while I am largely pointing out the Southampton mistakes, there's been enough for Ireland too that I don't see that the problem is the defence he's playing behind.

This isn't an "odd error", as you suggest. It's a fairly big error every other game or so.

And yes, he's young. But the game is in two weeks.

Yes, the recent mistakes thing was clearly about Southampton. For Ireland, it has been an odd error, same as Kelleher really but you probably could pick any player and pick out a few mistakes. Really nothing to be too concerned about for a 20 year old. The game is in two weeks and Bazunu will start and rightfully so. Again, it's a no brainer. Circumstances will have to change amongst the goalkeeper candidates to change that.