Where might new clubs come from?

[outspoken]

Couldn’t have been 100 in Cabinteely the other night. Awful place to watch a game. No atmosphere, Awful pitch, no ball boys so Long stoppages in play. Despite all their social media hype you’d have to ask if they’ve really added anything to the league

[sbgawa]

That's a bit harsh ...is say closer to 200 if you added in everyone in the bar and around the place.
I agree with you on the ballboys they have 1000 kids playing in 50 odd teams you'd think they could organise a Rota. Adding to the league is a good question they are very ambitious about getting a small stadium built and have great underage structures so I'd give them time......stradbrook is a kip, you will find this hard to believe but the pitch is much improved

[EatYerGreens]

Couldn’t have been 100 in Cabinteely the other night. Awful place to watch a game. No atmosphere, Awful pitch, no ball boys so Long stoppages in play. Despite all their social media hype you’d have to ask if they’ve really added anything to the league

If we're honest, Cabinteely are only in the league as the FAI was desperate to make up the numbers.

The LOI needs more provincial clubs, not more Dublin ones. It's hard enough for provincial clubs to build up support over time even with a clear geographical identity to tap into, for clubs in an already busy Dublin it's been nigh-on impossible - as the likes of Sporting Fingal, St Francis and St James's Gate proved.

[Charlie Darwin]

The last thing the league needs is more provincial clubs. The only one that's contributed anything to the league in decades is Wexford. The fact is that the only places outside of Dublin that can sustain a team already have one.

[D24Saint]

Reckon there is a few untapped locations around that could provide solid amateur clubs in the first division, I’d imagine places like Castlebar, Tullamore etc could have clubs.

[Longfordian]

We can split Cork City in two and that’ll give us another club.

[Straightstory]

The last thing the league needs is more provincial clubs. The only one that's contributed anything to the league in decades is Wexford. The fact is that the only places outside of Dublin that can sustain a team already have one.

Nightmare scenario would be promotion for UCD and Cabinteely and relegation for Limerick and Sligo.

UCD is such a miserable place to go. Photocopied programme; broken down scoreboard (why do they even have a scoreboard?); graveyard atmosphere. Under the delightful evening sun on Friday I noticed something for the first time - the thin layer of dust on all the seats in the stand.

And Cabineely is even worse.

[D24Saint]

As much as I dislike Belfield after listening to the league Podcast last week there was an interview with Evan Osam about getting his education sorted with UCD then continuing his career so in that context they have merit, I don't rate Cabinteely they are just in the league to make up the numbers.

[Mr A]

I quite like the bowl, we always have good craic there. It's grand for UCD's needs to be honest.

Cabinteely probably need to get the hell out of Stradbrook and move into something of in Cabinteely and build from there.

[sbgawa]

The last thing the league needs is more provincial clubs. The only one that's contributed anything to the league in decades is Wexford. The fact is that the only places outside of Dublin that can sustain a team already have one.

To be fair Wexford have contributed but I think you are being a bit hard overlooking Dundalk. :)

[nigel-harps1954]

Don't see much of a problem with Cabinteely to be honest. They're stuck in limbo in regards building their fan base though until they get their own stadium sorted. Stradbrook is just not suited to football at all. Grand bar, but that's where it ends. A 2,000-3,000 capacity stadium in around their own grounds would serve Cabinteely much better going forward.

[sbgawa]

They are trying to get the Council to build a 2000 seater stadium with a running track in Kilbogget Park where the kids teams play which could be used by them, Seapoint rugby club, the GAA club and the Athletics club all of who are based in the Park (its a big park :) )
If that happened which to be honest I doubt,.......... they could then get decent crowds as people could walk to it.
If it does actually happen they could become a proper addition.

There is a running track in the Park (a pretty **** one) if they built a couple of small stands around it or terracing it could work for what wouldn't / shouldn't be massive money

[EatYerGreens]

The last thing the league needs is more provincial clubs. The only one that's contributed anything to the league in decades is Wexford. The fact is that the only places outside of Dublin that can sustain a team already have one.

I'm not sure the facts agree with you here though.

If you look at the clubs that were introduced to the league since it expanded dramatically in 1984 and 1985 (i.e. in "decades") - Cork and Derry have added a huge amount ; Cobh, Bray and Longford are still around, and as are Wexford after 11 seasons.

In that time the following Dublin clubs have come and gone : St Francis, St James's Gate, Sporting Fingal, Dublin City, Home Farm Everton.

There have bene provincial clubs that have hit the wall across that period too (e.g. Kilkenny, Monaghan, Kildare), but not one new Dublin club has survived (the jury's still out on Cabinteely after only 3 seasons).

There does not appear to be any room in Dublin for clubs to join the league, establish a fan base and survive - let alone compete.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'm not sure the facts agree with you here though.

If you look at the clubs that were introduced to the league since it expanded dramatically in 1984 and 1985 (i.e. in "decades") - Cork and Derry have added a huge amount ; Cobh, Bray and Longford are still around, and as are Wexford after 11 seasons.

In that time the following Dublin clubs have come and gone : St Francis, St James's Gate, Sporting Fingal, Dublin City, Home Farm Everton.

There have bene provincial clubs that have hit the wall across that period too (e.g. Kilkenny, Monaghan, Kildare), but not one new Dublin club has survived (the jury's still out on Cabinteely after only 3 seasons).

There does not appear to be any room in Dublin for clubs to join the league, establish a fan base and survive - let alone compete.
Well I mean it wouldn't really make sense to include the clubs from the big expansion as that obviously worked. I'm not arguing for more Dublin clubs - I'm saying the league doesn't need more provincial clubs.

[Eminence Grise]

It would be great to see more clubs in the league, but as I see it, there are four obvious issues with expansion:
1: a club needs a population base to sustain even an amateur club and infrastructure;
2: a club can’t neighbour an existing club;
3: a club can’t be in the heartland of other sports as the cost of competition would too much at start-up;
4: it would require FAI and other investment.

The 2016 census (and including Derry), shows 30 towns with over 15,000 population - I accept it’s an arbitrary figure since Cobh, Longford and Finn Harps have smaller towns. Dublin, Cork, (Derry), Limerick, Galway, Waterford, Drogheda, Dundalk, Bray, Athlone, Wexford and Sligo are top 30 LoI towns, leaving:



North Dublin: Swords, Balbriggan, Malahide. Arguably there is room for a team but, as Sporting Fingal and (though not quite the same area) Dublin City showed, an ambitious existing club may fare better than a franchise. GAA and rugby are rivals, and does Dublin need another club?
Kildare: Newbridge, Naas, Celbridge, Leixlip. Has the population at county level, but the Kildare County experiment ended badly. No LoI competitor in the county, but it is GAA country.
Meath: Navan – GAA country and within Drogheda’s catchment area.
Wicklow: Greystones - Bray’s catchment area.
Midlands: Portlaoise, Mullingar (Tullamore is outside the top 30). Some potential in Portlaoise, but there is a strong GAA and rugby presence. Mullingar perhaps, but do many Athlone or Longford fans travel from here?
South/South-east/South midlands: Carrigaline, Kilkenny, Carlow, Clonmel. Carrigaline is between Cork and Cobh, so it’s a non-runner. Both could go it alone, but Kilkenny and Carlow have promise as a Kilkenny-based club with scholarship link to Carlow IT, but it’s Hurling Central, and home to a defunct team. Is there appetite and goodwill for a reboot? Clonmel is a sporting town – football, GAA, cricket, rugby, rowing – which suggests either a potential fanbase or a fragmented one. Has a Limerick IT campus which could help with a scholarship link. No obvious LoI competitor.
South-west: Ennis, Tralee. Tralee has A Championship experience (for good and ill) and an IT for scholarship links. Ennis, likewise, has a Limerick IT campus, albeit limited. Both are GAA counties. Could create an interesting Atlantic corridor from Kerry to Sligo.
North: Letterkenny. Too close to Finn Harps who presumably draw fans from it.


So with an admittedly crude analysis, the only geographically viable areas I can see are:
North Dublin
Kildare
Portlaoise
Kilkenny-Carlow
Clonmel
Ennis
Tralee

There may be an appetite in Monaghan or for county-level teams (e.g. Mayo League) and smaller towns with a football tradition – e.g Tullamore and Castlebar– could step up, but the caveats regarding GAA dominance and proximity to existing clubs apply.

Funding is the biggie: getting a non-league ground up to standard is a luxury when so many league grounds need renovation. You could throw a million at every club and see little for it. The real funding would have to be reduced entry and running costs for clubs, increased league regional marketing and PR spend by a multiple, and new, more valuable sponsorships for clubs and competitions. There would have to be a socio-economic argument to show the benefits to each town and region of participating – level of increased economic activity, sport and education links, social amenity (especially in disadvantaged areas) – and how non-sporting state and private investment could be allocated. That's a lot of hard work and I can't see too many takers.

[A.D.K.]

i think one thing the league of ireland is lacking is a regional spread, there is healthy support for LOI around the cities, being a dub would have always been aware of LOI but coaching in a country town in the past few years i have noticed that LOI is not on peoples radars they dont know it exists @all, personally i think theres a potential market out there where local gaa and rugby is **** poor, one obvious place is in carlow and probably a few of the places the poster above has mentioned.

personally i think alot of these places could sustain a loi if it was run well and sustainably and the grounds were located in the town not miles out(like buckley park as an example).

Also ive been called daft for suggesting this before, but i think the fai should look at hosting FAI cup semis is nuetral grounds(some demountable seating and some hype) in non loi big towns one north one south- would be a day out for the clubs and fans and could be done like gaa double header with an underage final held also. this might open open peoples eyes to loi in non loi areas.. just a thought...

[EatYerGreens]

It would be great to see more clubs in the league, but as I see it, there are four obvious issues with expansion:
1: a club needs a population base to sustain even an amateur club and infrastructure;
2: a club can’t neighbour an existing club;
3: a club can’t be in the heartland of other sports as the cost of competition would too much at start-up;
4: it would require FAI and other investment.

The 2016 census (and including Derry), shows 30 towns with over 15,000 population - I accept it’s an arbitrary figure since Cobh, Longford and Finn Harps have smaller towns. Dublin, Cork, (Derry), Limerick, Galway, Waterford, Drogheda, Dundalk, Bray, Athlone, Wexford and Sligo are top 30 LoI towns, leaving:



North Dublin: Swords, Balbriggan, Malahide. Arguably there is room for a team but, as Sporting Fingal and (though not quite the same area) Dublin City showed, an ambitious existing club may fare better than a franchise. GAA and rugby are rivals, and does Dublin need another club?
Kildare: Newbridge, Naas, Celbridge, Leixlip. Has the population at county level, but the Kildare County experiment ended badly. No LoI competitor in the county, but it is GAA country.
Meath: Navan – GAA country and within Drogheda’s catchment area.
Wicklow: Greystones - Bray’s catchment area.
Midlands: Portlaoise, Mullingar (Tullamore is outside the top 30). Some potential in Portlaoise, but there is a strong GAA and rugby presence. Mullingar perhaps, but do many Athlone or Longford fans travel from here?
South/South-east/South midlands: Carrigaline, Kilkenny, Carlow, Clonmel. Carrigaline is between Cork and Cobh, so it’s a non-runner. Both could go it alone, but Kilkenny and Carlow have promise as a Kilkenny-based club with scholarship link to Carlow IT, but it’s Hurling Central, and home to a defunct team. Is there appetite and goodwill for a reboot? Clonmel is a sporting town – football, GAA, cricket, rugby, rowing – which suggests either a potential fanbase or a fragmented one. Has a Limerick IT campus which could help with a scholarship link. No obvious LoI competitor.
South-west: Ennis, Tralee. Tralee has A Championship experience (for good and ill) and an IT for scholarship links. Ennis, likewise, has a Limerick IT campus, albeit limited. Both are GAA counties. Could create an interesting Atlantic corridor from Kerry to Sligo.
North: Letterkenny. Too close to Finn Harps who presumably draw fans from it.


So with an admittedly crude analysis, the only geographically viable areas I can see are:
North Dublin
Kildare
Portlaoise
Kilkenny-Carlow
Clonmel
Ennis
Tralee

There may be an appetite in Monaghan or for county-level teams (e.g. Mayo League) and smaller towns with a football tradition – e.g Tullamore and Castlebar– could step up, but the caveats regarding GAA dominance and proximity to existing clubs apply.

Funding is the biggie: getting a non-league ground up to standard is a luxury when so many league grounds need renovation. You could throw a million at every club and see little for it. The real funding would have to be reduced entry and running costs for clubs, increased league regional marketing and PR spend by a multiple, and new, more valuable sponsorships for clubs and competitions. There would have to be a socio-economic argument to show the benefits to each town and region of participating – level of increased economic activity, sport and education links, social amenity (especially in disadvantaged areas) – and how non-sporting state and private investment could be allocated. That's a lot of hard work and I can't see too many takers.

A good summary overall - though I'd disagree with a few of the points re particular geographies.

Up until about 15 years ago there were usually a few ambitious clubs sniffing around looking to join the LOI if possible. Just think of Mullingar Town (or was it Athletic ?) who made it known in the media that they were just waiting for a gap to appear.

Now, however, things have got so that there are essentially no existing clubs interested in taking the step up - as it would be financial suicide and an unwelcome distraction from their existing/core activity. Until the FAI increases prize and participation money substantially, and ideally also reduces participation costs, then that current situation will continue. There is very little upside and a huge downside to any existing clubs joining the LOI.

As for a club starting from scratch, they'd fear even worse unless they had serious money behind them and a defined population centre with a specific identity (i..e not somewhere artificial like 'Fingal') that they could have a clear run at. But I just can't see that happening.

In short - the FAI need to step up and make our league more attractive by upping the prize money. Even a relatively small increase to them would make a big increase to the clubs involved in the game.

[Eminence Grise]

A good summary overall - though I'd disagree with a few of the points re particular geographies.

Like I said, I took a fairly arbitrary approach and what I came up with (hopefully) is open to debate. Are there other geographic areas you think are likely, or do you think I've missed something?

IIRC, Mullingar Town were being backed by investors who were going to import a lot of lower League players from England, including Ashley Sestanovich (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Sestanovich#Later_career). They didn't make it into the league which might have been for the better, the way these things have a habit of turning out here...

As for the rest, I think we're in complete agreement!

(Mods: we've gone a bit off topic. Should this be spun out into a new thread or merged with any old one covering similar ground?)

[Mr A]

Split this out from attendances thread. A league that has reduced in number from 22->20 (and for a bit effectively 19) is not healthy. We need some form of tie to intermediate / junior football so there are candidates to step up. And the league needs to find a way to make the first division a league that is easier to get by in.

[Partizan]

I'm not sure the facts agree with you here though.

If you look at the clubs that were introduced to the league since it expanded dramatically in 1984 and 1985 (i.e. in "decades") - Cork and Derry have added a huge amount ; Cobh, Bray and Longford are still around, and as are Wexford after 11 seasons.

In that time the following Dublin clubs have come and gone : St Francis, St James's Gate, Sporting Fingal, Dublin City, Home Farm Everton.

There have bene provincial clubs that have hit the wall across that period too (e.g. Kilkenny, Monaghan, Kildare), but not one new Dublin club has survived (the jury's still out on Cabinteely after only 3 seasons).

There does not appear to be any room in Dublin for clubs to join the league, establish a fan base and survive - let alone compete.

Monaghan are still going as they are concentrating on underage and women's football.

An honourable mention to Newcastlewest who are still with us, now playing in the Limerick Desmond League.

[GUFCghost]

I presume running a team in the youth leagues can be viewed as a statement of intent? Currently we have Kerry League, Mayo League and the Monaghan/Cavan League.

I'd say we should focus on the 20 we have first.I'd estimate that about 10 out of the 20 grounds are UEFA Category 2, which is the standard we should be aiming for, and most clubs don't have proper training grounds. If there's going to be some sort of centralised investment in the league it should go there first.

[Kiki Balboa]

There is not much point in league fans or the FAI picking an area and saying here should be a new club for the league (BUT here I am going to talk about just that). The only way that a team can go into the league is if there is enough dedicated members of the club who have a little financial clout. Without the core of a club (or area) pushing for this, it aint going to happen.

There are somethings the FAI can do tho, such as easing the financial burden on new and existing clubs. Currently we have amateur teams who struggle with the costs. More prize money and bigger grants is of course needed (I think everybody knows that). I remember reading a John O'Sullivan ariticle on the 42 that talked about how UEFA give 2.1mill to each FA to run the leagues, this needs to go into teams pockets, especially first division so a solid base can be built with infrastructure and time to allow a club to grow organically. Also, it would be super helpful for plenty of training to be provided to those who run the clubs.

I do believe small teams can exist in the league and do add something (random note... look at all the league talent that UCD produce, gven players something important to fall back on too). Although, I can never see any of the teams mentioned getting higher than 1000 average crowd over a year. Plus there will be a huge problem with any entering with Facilities and stadia.

Having entry into the leagues youth leagues is also a pretty big carrot for potential teams tho. I think the best option at the moment would be St. Kevins Boys, who already have a huge reputation , near fingal, which is huge population area and probably want entry to the u13/15/17 leagues. Plus maybe Evergreen again?? seems there is a lot of football activity in that area of the country and they seem to be doing pretty great at intermediate level.

Anyways, its a hell of a lot more important that we dont lose any clubs than find new ones. Losing the history of Athlone would be such a huge huge shame

[pineapple stu]

We need some form of tie to intermediate / junior football so there are candidates to step up. And the league needs to find a way to make the first division a league that is easier to get by in.
That's absolutely key. Speculating on big towns is pointless until these two points are addressed

[EatYerGreens]

There is not much point in league fans or the FAI picking an area and saying here should be a new club for the league (BUT here I am going to talk about just that). The only way that a team can go into the league is if there is enough dedicated members of the club who have a little financial clout. Without the core of a club (or area) pushing for this, it aint going to happen.

There are somethings the FAI can do tho, such as easing the financial burden on new and existing clubs. Currently we have amateur teams who struggle with the costs. More prize money and bigger grants is of course needed (I think everybody knows that). I remember reading a John O'Sullivan ariticle on the 42 that talked about how UEFA give 2.1mill to each FA to run the leagues, this needs to go into teams pockets, especially first division so a solid base can be built with infrastructure and time to allow a club to grow organically. Also, it would be super helpful for plenty of training to be provided to those who run the clubs.

I do believe small teams can exist in the league and do add something (random note... look at all the league talent that UCD produce, gven players something important to fall back on too). Although, I can never see any of the teams mentioned getting higher than 1000 average crowd over a year. Plus there will be a huge problem with any entering with Facilities and stadia.

Having entry into the leagues youth leagues is also a pretty big carrot for potential teams tho. I think the best option at the moment would be St. Kevins Boys, who already have a huge reputation , near fingal, which is huge population area and probably want entry to the u13/15/17 leagues. Plus maybe Evergreen again?? seems there is a lot of football activity in that area of the country and they seem to be doing pretty great at intermediate level.

Anyways, its a hell of a lot more important that we dont lose any clubs than find new ones. Losing the history of Athlone would be such a huge huge shame

Aren't St Kevin's Boys in Dublin ? In which case - that would be the last thing the league would need IMO. Having loads of underage players is all very well, but rarely seems to filter through to support for the senior team in these sort of new clubs. Don't Cabinteely have a ridiculously high number of members and underage teams, for example ?

As for Evergreen - do you mean Evergreen United, who were based in Cork city ? Which makes the point on this one for me ;)

As for Athlone - increased prize money would help, but the club appears to have been appallingly run for years now. It's a genuine soccer town with a good population by Irish standards, and a club with a good history in the game and inter-generational support. There is no way a club with all that going for it should be in the state they find themselves in, so they need to look at themselves for the reasons IMO.

[Charlie Darwin]

I do believe small teams can exist in the league and do add something (random note... look at all the league talent that UCD produce, gven players something important to fall back on too).
That's the thing though, isn't it? UCD have made an amazing contribution to football in this country but they're probably the one small club for whom FAI support is irrelevant. They'll keep doing what they're doing because it's part of their academic program and they benefit from the facilities built for all the college's teams. It's the likes of Longford, Cobh, etc who could take steps forward if FAI support was what it should be.

[CraftyToePoke]

There have bene provincial clubs that have hit the wall across that period too (e.g. Kilkenny, Monaghan, Kildare), but not one new Dublin club has survived (the jury's still out on Cabinteely after only 3 seasons).

Add Newcastle West to that provincial list.

[Lim till i die]

Why are people always looking for new clubs?!

We can't look after the club's we have!

[Buller]

Why are people always looking for new clubs?!

We can't look after the club's we have!

Because we need to replace the ones that regularly go bust and can't pay their players... :p It's the Cycle of LoI Life.

I jest.

While I am pretty satisfied with the current compliment of clubs, it is interesting to see possible population centres that could support a club.

[Pablo Escobar]

As for Evergreen - do you mean Evergreen United, who were based in Cork city ? Which makes the point on this one for me ;)

I'd imagine it's Evergreen in Kilkenny. They just lost Mikey Drennan to Sligo. They do have a good underage setup, however.

I live in Kilkenny and I feel that rather than using the 'hurling stronghold' excuse, LOI in Kilkenny actually suffered from the same common denominator as other failed or under-performing (at least attendance-wise) LOI clubs, the location of the ground. While Buckley Park is a nice setup, it's not at all accessible. Compare this to a smaller town, like Sligo, where the ground is a few minutes walk from the centre and even though they're towards the bottom of the league, attendances are respectable. I don't think that's a co-incidence.

[nigel-harps1954]

Evergreen in Kilkenny are a nice junior club, but they'd add to the LOI no better than Salthill Devon did. They play on an artificial pitch inside a cage.

I'd love to see a Kilkenny side back in the league, it is a good football area, but like the post above suggests, the ground is just too far from the town.

For me, a Carlow IT based side is the only one that could work in that part of the country. Carlow football is in a good state at a junior level, and it's fairly well supported.

[pineapple stu]

Because we need to replace the ones that regularly go bust and can't pay their players... :p It's the Cycle of LoI Life.

I jest.
Seems a perfectly reasonable answer to me in fairness

[David BOHie]

Just to echo what other people have said, it would be great if the teams with U15s intended to create a 17s, then 19s and then Senior team in the LOI with a proper underage/Schoolboy structure. So that would mean:
1. Cavan-Monaghan playing out of Gortakeegan.

2. Mayo FC - Ideally playing in the most populous area or playing in a good catchment area.

3 & 4. Carlow-Kilkenny could probably be split in to Carlow (linked to the IT) and a Kilkenny team - Be it Evergreen or the return of Kilkenny City but actually playing in or close to the city.

5. Kerry FC also have a team with a big playing population (It will always be in the shadow of GAA but that's fine. We should be competing with those who wear Liverpool or UTD jerseys, not the GAA. The two sports can co-exist). Tralee or Killarney would be the obvious choice of town here.

Looking beyond that then, some areas to target would definitely be Fingal and Kildare.

6. I know both had clubs and failed but Fingal were only in existence for a few years and were located in the wrong spot. An actual Fingal team playing out in Swords would have a huge catchment area. Start with a 15s team, then 17s then 19s then senior. Give it a chance because it is a huge and expanding area.

7. Finally, Kildare then. I know they also had a team and I know GAA, Horse Racing and Golf is big out there but it's one of the biggest counties population-wise so given time I'd hope they could develop.


You look at big (relatively big) junior clubs who've been linked in the past.
Tullamore, Mullingar and Fanad for instance. Harps are struggling enough in the NW with Derry and Sligo competing for players and, perhaps a lesser extent, fans. So Fanad would be a non-runner imo.

Are people from the wider Westmeath area going to jump on a Mullingar team? Are people from Edenderry going to feel affiliated with a team called Tullamore? Maybe one has a strong enough presence to justify a team. Maybe they wouldn't be winning leagues but if there was a strong presence to develop youth players in the area with proper coaches then maybe they'd be sustainable.

Obviously this is way down the road (and possibly not possible at all) but I feel it's definitely something the LOI/FAI should look to do. You'd have a real feel of a National League, not just an east coast league with a few teams scattered around the country. Most sustainable counties would have a LOI team and there would be a great geographical spread.

[disgruntled]

I don't think anything will change in this country until we get a proper pyramid system in operation.
It should be possible to go from the lower leagues right to the top like in other countries.
Put the system in operation & invest in it.
Use what clubs we have all over the country & build on that without the need to invent new ones.

[EatYerGreens]

I'd imagine it's Evergreen in Kilkenny.

In which case he was getting the two completely separate Evergreens mixed up.

[David BOHie]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2002/0221/162260-kildare/

Says here in an article from 2007, 12 clubs were contacted to see if they wanted to join. Anyone know the 12? haha

[CraftyToePoke]

An honourable mention to Newcastlewest who are still with us, now playing in the Limerick Desmond League.

As they are mentioned, in 1984, a year before Newcastle West joined LOI in '85 Newcastle Rovers were formed and the two clubs have been big Desmond League rivals since NC West dropped out of LOI and back into DL in 1990. They amalgamated underage last year, a new club called Newcastle West Town FC came into being. They already have an U15 FAI Cup South West win in their first year, the first DL club to win a regional competition. This coming DL season, the clubs will fully amalgamate and the town will put one junior side out. It's very possible this club will have a lot of their own way at DL level.

The town now has a population of around 6,600. The urban area has passed well beyond the old town boundaries which are due for redefinition.

The old LOI ground is a lot more developed than it was in the LOI days, a much better facility although obviously probably still short of national league current standards.

Also current LOI players Liam McCartan (Wexford Youths) Killian Brouder (Limerick FC) Gary Shanahan (Galway) are all ex NCW AFC players. In addition to this, Paudie O'Connor (Leeds Utd via Limerick FC) Anthony Forde (Rotherham United) & John McGrath (ex Villa / Doncaster / Burton and Ireland U21s) are all ex DL players from very nearby.

So,here you have a club founded in 1948 originally with good tradition and real presence in the area, an area which produces players of a capable standard clearly, and who also have previous in the LOI. You also have a good underage set up and a forward thinking amalgamation for the good of the game in the town as they combine their facilities, infrastructure and efforts.


Is the potential here for a LOI Div 1 club ? Absolutely, yes in my opinion.

What do you not have ? A staged pathway to that goal, or the remotest motivation for those at the club to put the club under that financial pressure just to have the status of 'LOI'

What do you also not have ? A governing body who will address the two above issues.

[pineapple stu]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2002/0221/162260-kildare/

Says here in an article from 2007, 12 clubs were contacted to see if they wanted to join. Anyone know the 12? haha
Interesting to see that even then - the peak of the bubble really - only 5 of the 12 clubs appeared to have had any interest of joining. And Mullingar Town, whose chairman was a bit mad I think, were the second strongest of those 5. And the best candidate, Kildare, lasted 8 seasons.

I think the LoI is going nowhere until the First Division is gotten rid of, and instead the regional leagues (LSL, MSL, etc) become de facto regionalised First Divisions.

[OMTY]

As they are mentioned, in 1984, a year before Newcastle West joined LOI in '85 Newcastle Rovers were formed and the two clubs have been big Desmond League rivals since NC West dropped out of LOI and back into DL in 1990. They amalgamated underage last year, a new club called Newcastle West Town FC came into being. They already have an U15 FAI Cup South West win in their first year, the first DL club to win a regional competition. This coming DL season, the clubs will fully amalgamate and the town will put one junior side out. It's very possible this club will have a lot of their own way at DL level.

The town now has a population of around 6,600. The urban area has passed well beyond the old town boundaries which are due for redefinition.

The old LOI ground is a lot more developed than it was in the LOI days, a much better facility although obviously probably still short of national league current standards.

Also current LOI players Liam McCartan (Wexford Youths) Killian Brouder (Limerick FC) Gary Shanahan (Galway) are all ex NCW AFC players. In addition to this, Paudie O'Connor (Leeds Utd via Limerick FC) Anthony Forde (Rotherham United) & John McGrath (ex Villa / Doncaster / Burton and Ireland U21s) are all ex DL players from very nearby.

So,here you have a club founded in 1948 originally with good tradition and real presence in the area, an area which produces players of a capable standard clearly, and who also have previous in the LOI. You also have a good underage set up and a forward thinking amalgamation for the good of the game in the town as they combine their facilities, infrastructure and efforts.


Is the potential here for a LOI Div 1 club ? Absolutely, yes in my opinion.

What do you not have ? A staged pathway to that goal, or the remotest motivation for those at the club to put the club under that financial pressure just to have the status of 'LOI'

What do you also not have ? A governing body who will address the two above issues.

Did Denis Behan come through NCW? I know he's from Abbeyfeale but I had always associated him with NCW for some reason. Either way he's another indicator of decent talent in the NCW hinterland.

[CraftyToePoke]

Did Denis Behan come through NCW? I know he's from Abbeyfeale but I had always associated him with NCW for some reason. Either way he's another indicator of decent talent in the NCW hinterland.

Not as far as I know with Behan, OMTY, could be wrong though. Yeah, from eight miles away only too though you're right.

[CorribsideSteve]

Limerick is a big enough county population wise with 90,000 or so NOT living in the City environs so there is enough room for supporting two LOI clubs in one county in theory. Behan was a very decent striker, that goal in the Brandywell for Cork from 30-40 yards out. He just sort of disappeared though it seems. I lived in Abbeyfeale as a kid and got to see him play some local matches when we were teenagers. He was bigger stronger and faster than every other kid so people knew he would do well one day. The South West could and should have an LOI team whether it's Tralee or Newcastlewest. North Kerry is all about hurling, and Kerry aren't world beaters in that regard, while West Limerick is all about Gaelic Football, and Limerick are in Division 4 i think.. A good opportunity in the future for a soccer club to become successful perhaps.

[El-Pietro]

Behan was a very decent striker, that goal in the Brandywell for Cork from 30-40 yards out. He just sort of disappeared though it seems.
We sold him to Hartlepool, he came back and played for Limerick for two seasons, or parts of two seasons perhaps. Joined us in 2013 for about half a season I think and then left the professional game. Think hes coaching/playing for Carrigaline these days. He has let himself go since leaving pro football. That or the yellow jersey is just unflattering.

[EatYerGreens]

As they are mentioned, in 1984, a year before Newcastle West joined LOI in '85 Newcastle Rovers were formed and the two clubs have been big Desmond League rivals since NC West dropped out of LOI and back into DL in 1990. They amalgamated underage last year, a new club called Newcastle West Town FC came into being. They already have an U15 FAI Cup South West win in their first year, the first DL club to win a regional competition. This coming DL season, the clubs will fully amalgamate and the town will put one junior side out. It's very possible this club will have a lot of their own way at DL level.

The town now has a population of around 6,600. The urban area has passed well beyond the old town boundaries which are due for redefinition.

The old LOI ground is a lot more developed than it was in the LOI days, a much better facility although obviously probably still short of national league current standards.

Also current LOI players Liam McCartan (Wexford Youths) Killian Brouder (Limerick FC) Gary Shanahan (Galway) are all ex NCW AFC players. In addition to this, Paudie O'Connor (Leeds Utd via Limerick FC) Anthony Forde (Rotherham United) & John McGrath (ex Villa / Doncaster / Burton and Ireland U21s) are all ex DL players from very nearby.

So,here you have a club founded in 1948 originally with good tradition and real presence in the area, an area which produces players of a capable standard clearly, and who also have previous in the LOI. You also have a good underage set up and a forward thinking amalgamation for the good of the game in the town as they combine their facilities, infrastructure and efforts.


Is the potential here for a LOI Div 1 club ? Absolutely, yes in my opinion.

What do you not have ? A staged pathway to that goal, or the remotest motivation for those at the club to put the club under that financial pressure just to have the status of 'LOI'

What do you also not have ? A governing body who will address the two above issues.

Newcastle United/West attracted pitiful crowds, won nothing and lasted only 5 seasons in the First Division. In those 5 years, their highest placed finish was 6th in a 10 team league. They were the first of the expanded league's clubs to drop out.

What makes you think things would be so different if they joined up again ? Especially given that it costs significantly more to run an LOI team now than it did back then ?

Also - nowhere with a population even vaguely in the ball park of 6,600 people should be deemed suitable for a new LOI club IMO. Football is a primarily urban sport, and increasingly expensive one every season that goes by thanks to UEFA participation funding. You may as well ask Newcastle West to make a high pile of Euros, light it and dance around it as a distraction from running their current set up, as ask them to consider rejoining the LOI. It didn't work for them before, and I'm pretty damn sure it would have even less chance of working for them now.

[CraftyToePoke]

Newcastle United/West attracted pitiful crowds, won nothing and lasted only 5 seasons in the First Division. In those 5 years, their highest placed finish was 6th in a 10 team league. They were the first of the expanded league's clubs to drop out.

What makes you think things would be so different if they joined up again ? Especially given that it costs significantly more to run an LOI team now than it did back then ?

Also - nowhere with a population even vaguely in the ball park of 6,600 people should be deemed suitable for a new LOI club IMO. Football is a primarily urban sport, and increasingly expensive one every season that goes by thanks to UEFA participation funding. You may as well ask Newcastle West to make a high pile of Euros, light it and dance around it as a distraction from running their current set up, as ask them to consider rejoining the LOI. It didn't work for them before, and I'm pretty damn sure it would have even less chance of working for them now.

I think you have missed my point, in that I broadly agree it almost certainly won't happen and would struggle in the present way of doing things financially, that was the final and underlying part of my original post.

Where have i said it would be different ? I simply haven't said that.
I merely added it to the conversation, referencing some of the possible criteria from earlier posts in the thread, particularly suggestions of clubs in new areas just because population numbers or geographically, they tick a box.

I know they attracted pitiful crowds, I was there most weeks. I also spoke recently with those involved at the time, and there is full awareness of how steep this hill would be and no intention of trying the climb at all.

What I did offer, to the conversation, was an area clearly producing the talent, with decent roots in the game, and if the FAI truly did want the league to develop talent for the national side they would act helpfully if the club expressed an interest. They won't & they wont.

As for what has changed, well the token local in the LOI eleven was an issue, the 'A' side and Rovers sides were all local in the DL and that told. So you would these days have players being produced of an LOI standard locally, (because they are coming through and moving on) that would help re attendances and finances through the gate ( nowhere near enough probably but that's hardly news anywhere across the league )

But to say I have come on here somehow advocating this is wide of the mark, maybe its more protein you need rather than greens as that promotes brain function and understanding of information taken in :)

[Longfordian]

We sold him to Hartlepool, he came back and played for Limerick for two seasons, or parts of two seasons perhaps. Joined us in 2013 for about half a season I think and then left the professional game. Think hes coaching/playing for Carrigaline these days. He has let himself go since leaving pro football. That or the yellow jersey is just unflattering.

He was never the most svelte even when he was a pro to be fair.

[pateen]

Is there any reason why Kilkenny City were never re-established in the league.

Did they just not have the appetite for LOI down there?

[pineapple stu]

Kilkenny was always just Jim Rhatigan FC, wasn't it?

[EatYerGreens]

Kilkenny was always just Jim Rhatigan FC, wasn't it?

He was definitely the driving force behind it all.

[EatYerGreens]

I think you have missed my point, in that I broadly agree it almost certainly won't happen and would struggle in the present way of doing things financially, that was the final and underlying part of my original post.

Where have i said it would be different ? I simply haven't said that.
I merely added it to the conversation, referencing some of the possible criteria from earlier posts in the thread, particularly suggestions of clubs in new areas just because population numbers or geographically, they tick a box.

I know they attracted pitiful crowds, I was there most weeks. I also spoke recently with those involved at the time, and there is full awareness of how steep this hill would be and no intention of trying the climb at all.

What I did offer, to the conversation, was an area clearly producing the talent, with decent roots in the game, and if the FAI truly did want the league to develop talent for the national side they would act helpfully if the club expressed an interest. They won't & they wont.

As for what has changed, well the token local in the LOI eleven was an issue, the 'A' side and Rovers sides were all local in the DL and that told. So you would these days have players being produced of an LOI standard locally, (because they are coming through and moving on) that would help re attendances and finances through the gate ( nowhere near enough probably but that's hardly news anywhere across the league )

But to say I have come on here somehow advocating this is wide of the mark, maybe its more protein you need rather than greens as that promotes brain function and understanding of information taken in :)

Whichever side of the bed you got out of on Saturday, Crafty, try the other side in future ;)

As for that timeworn LOI excuse that a lack of local players "is an issue", there's hardly a provincial club for whom people haven't wheeled that out at some point to justify a lack of support. Even when the same clubs have had mostly or all-local teams it's made feck all difference to their crowds though tbh. It's just one of the many stock excuses that people reach for to justify turning their nose up at Irish football.

As for the protein - you'll hurt your wrist swinging your hand bag like that, girlfriend ! :D

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Is there any reason why Kilkenny City were never re-established in the league.

Did they just not have the appetite for LOI down there?

Believe they've a women's team at the moment but starting a team effectively from scratch probably wouldn't work too well, evergreen in a more central location, Buckley park and evergreen's current grounds are great but not exactly great locations to get locals to just pop down especially non drivers, might work but they'd be far from certain to survive nevermind thrive

[CraftyToePoke]

Newbridge Town appointing Mick Cooke, any mileage in that down the line for an LOI entrance ?

Here- https://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/soccer/319173/mick-cooke-takes-charge-at-newbridge-town-afc.html