Where might new clubs come from?

[EatYerGreens]

If I may make some observations from afar, might I suggest that the basic problem about attracting new teams and bolstering the 1st Division, even introducing a pyramid etc, is as follows.

For any such system to work, it is necessary to have 16? 18? 20? teams (minimum) which are all broadly competitive?

By which I mean not that each has an equal chance of winning the title etc, but that the worst team shouldn't be that far off the best team (i.e. usually losing, but not by 5 or 6 goal hidings every time).

And since the Premier Division went full-time, that opened up a gap between Premier and First which is incredibly hard to bridge, unless FD clubs gamble and start spending money they don't have. And if/when they do, that makes it harder again for emerging clubs from further down to make the step-up to the FD.

Worse still, with the advent of big European prize money, there is even a danger of the PD dividing into "haves" and "have nots" (outliers like Bohs notwithstanding).

So that as things stand, ROI isn't capable of sustaining the number of stable, f-t clubs necessary to operate a pyramid incorporsting Promotion and Relegation, and to encourage emerging new entrants to come through etc.

I only say this because the Irish League, for all its other faults, esp lower standard of play, is able to sustain a successful and stable pyramid, with two Senior divisions and Internediate divisions feeding through to them and Junior league clubs having the opportunity to rise to Intermediate level. As a result, we have had far fewer clubs folding, while smaller (or newish) teams like Ballinamallard, Warrenpoint and Institute have been (broadly) able to hold their own.
But that has been achieved on the basis that all are/were effectively part-time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_football_league_system

Of course, that is now under threat as several teams (Linfield, Crues, Glens, Larne, even Cliftonville?) are now f-t, or actively planning to get there. And with European money also beginning to skew the finances, we may end up with a situation closer to that in the LOI - but that's for the future, and I am reasonably confident that the existing structure and administration, which is relatively (emphasise) efficient, may mitigate the worst effects.

Of course if you were to take, say, the top 10 LOI clubs and add the top 8 IL clubs, you might have the basis of a working top tier, with a sufficient number of teams below able (just about) to sustain P&R etc.

Now why didn't somebody think of that before? :)

I would agree with you broadly on the above, but would suggest that the main reason the Irish League has been stable and not had any boom or busts in clubs is because it hasn't had any money either. No big financial gaps between clubs were suddenly created, so no pressure put on anyone else to up their spending to keep up. And the IL is essentially a closed-shop (it's extremely hard, even with the pyramid, for new clubs to establish themselves properly at the top level). So without any money, you don't get a Sporting Fingal there.

That could all be about to change with investments in Larne, Glentoran etc.

If I can be honest there sometimes appears to be a smugness/superiority complex amongst some sections of northern fans (not yourself) that the LOI is a basket case whilst the north is wonderful and all steady-as-she-goes, without understanding or analysing why that is. I suspect a few shocks may be in store as there is more and more money in the game north of the border and it starts to be impacted by some of the madness that afflicts football everywhere else (and not just in the LOI).

[EalingGreen]

I would agree with you broadly on the above, but would suggest that the main reason the Irish League has been stable and not had any boom or busts in clubs is because it hasn't had any money either. No big financial gaps between clubs were suddenly created, so no pressure put on anyone else to up their spending to keep up.
Whether clubs have £5 in the bank, or £5m, it's all the same, you have to live within your means.

This lesson had to be learned by the IL a decade or more ago, when the likes of Glentoran and Coleraine spent money they didn't have to try to keep up with the one club who did have plenty of it relatively-speaking, Linfield (from their IFA contract for Windsor).

When those two clubs nearly went bust, it served as a cold shower for them and the rest which, added to better administration of the league and the retention of p-t football, meant clubs/leagues are mostly stable. It also helps that most senior clubs own their own grounds, so aren't at risk from rogue owners or property developers etc. (Two who don't, Linfield and Ballymena, both have reliable landlords and Ards, well they struggle by.)


And the IL is essentially a closed-shop (it's extremely hard, even with the pyramid, for new clubs to establish themselves properly at the top level). So without any money, you don't get a Sporting Fingal there.

That could all be about to change with investments in Larne, Glentoran etc.
Not so. There are 8 "established" Premier teams - Linfield, Glentoran, Cliftonville, Crusaders, Dungannon, Coleraine, Glenavon and Ballymena.

Over the last decade alone they have been joined at various times by Institute, Carrick R, Warrenpoint, Larne, Newry C, Ards, Ballinamallard, L. Distillery, Donegal C amd Portadown (10). Now that Newry are sorted, all of those are stable, bar Donegal Celtic(?), with Portadown easily having the potential to become the 9th establishment club, if they ever sort themselves out. (Though tbf, they looked certs for promotion this season until Covid-19 intervened.)

Meanwhile, Armagh C, Ballyclare, Dundela, the Welders, Limavady, Loughgall and Bangor (7) are all long-established, some have been in the top tier, and each might hope to be the next "breakthrough" club, given time and investment, like eg Ballinamallard and Warrenpoint have done.

So even if the IL operates at an obviously more modest level than the LOI, it nonetheless has a depth which your league doesn't appear to have. (To me, at any rate - I'm open to correction)




If I can be honest there sometimes appears to be a smugness/superiority complex amongst some sections of northern fans (not yourself) that the LOI is a basket case whilst the north is wonderful and all steady-as-she-goes, without understanding or analysing why that is. I suspect a few shocks may be in store as there is more and more money in the game north of the border and it starts to be impacted by some of the madness that afflicts football everywhere else (and not just in the LOI).
Tbh, I'm not that close to the IL either these days, but I'm prepared to accept that observation.

And yes, there is a very real danger that as and when more money comes into the IL, with the prospect of even more from Europe, we could be about to see a resumption of "the arms race."

But having been there before and come through it without too many casualties, we should (stress) be better placed to cope. And without wishing to appear smug, for all its many faults, the IFA isn't screwing the league set-up so badly as the FAI appears to have been doing, which must offer us some hope.

[EalingGreen]

So the reason I see a 16-team Premier as being the best way forward (not a panacea - just the best option at present) is that it actively encourages the stronger non-league sides to want to step up. Give it decent prize money, give them the buzz of promotion (I think the way Cabo came into the league hamstrung them from the very start), give them big games (on TV if possible), give them something to try help generate local interest and grow the club. If they end up relegated, well they just go back to where they came from and can try again. Let LoI B teams compete up to the second tier - another problem solved (it's effectively the LSL, and B teams compete there anyway).

Yes, you're right that this would probably lead to an uneven division - although most LoI clubs have shown they can be competitive given a bit of financial support - but I think it would help grow some new clubs. You've got to pick which one you want, and I think the latter is the preferable option.There's a lot of sense in the stuff which preceeded the above extract, but I still don't see how a 16 team PD would work.

I mean, with an existing 10 team set-up where the bottom 2 or 3 struggle to keep up, what hope would the next six have?

And even if they did compete, wouldn't that effectively "fillet" the FD, thereby killing any hope of constructing a pyramid further down?

[pineapple stu]

Don't really agree. As I mentioned, most of the current FD have the potential to be vaguely competitive with some support behind them. That's why the suggestion wasn't just a 16-team Premier, but had other aspects to it, including E2m prize money (the FAI were supposed to be debt-free by 2020, thereby freeing up E3m a year of interest). The top half of the FD all have the potential to be competitive in the PD if invested in rather than funding the FAI. And anyway, as also mentioned, getting new clubs to step up is more important at the moment than ensuring all PD games are tight affairs.

It would completely get rid of the FD - that's the entire point. The second tier would be better structured as LSL/MSL/USL/CSL (maybe merge the last two). So you're keeping close to current structures but putting a clear pathway between the two levels.

Get rid of daft stuff like county district leagues for each county, two Limerick leagues, clubs switching from LSL to AUL to UCL. It's an utter absurdity of a system designed at generating big fish in small ponds who've no interest in improving. And that can only hinder the game here

[Nesta99]

Yeah, I get what you're saying.

And yeah, you've completely lost it.

Brutal honesty is good and a 50% hit ratio! ;p Tired post of drivle after a sh!t show of a long nightshift is my excuse. At least there is plenty to catch up on in this thread. Good to get proper football related debate that isnt about covid!! Even if some of the issues cropping up have often been discussed before - we need Legendz back for this!

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Problem with the current league structure in my opinion is that it's half pyramid half ring-fenced setup with the worst aspects of both. We don't have to money in football in this country for a ring-fence model and until now the FAI haven't had the balls to enforce a pyramid structure so well have to see if that changes or if we keep this sort of ******* hybrid. We need to fully commit to one or the other not try compromise.

And for what it's worth 2 or 10 winners in a decade I don't think makes a difference purely depends how teams do in Europe. If you have a case where either system sees equal results in Europe then the 10 winners would probably win out because in theory you'd have teams pushing eachother more.

[Charlie Darwin]

There is merit in redistribution I know. I should have said bad idea for the clubs that are in Europe currently. As ye know I will happily get on board with the idea if Peak6 up sticks and we need money and stability. The prospect of a widening gap financially would be a concern also but it is hard feign sincerity on this when your team happens to be in the mix. I would like to be able to say in the future, among other things, ' for the benefit of the league Dundalk needs more competition, lets share prizemoney'.
I remember John O'Sullivan saying that Rovers proposed redistributing Euro money before but it was voted down.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

It wouldn't be spat if their self-interest was met I think. And that's always been the way with the league.

Rovers* and Dundalk were the two main clubs against the PCA document, particularly the suggested expansion of the Premier (possibly because of the suggestion of the partial redistribution of European money too). And I can understand why purely looking it from their point of view. From the bigger picture though, the First Division is a huge and unhelpful barrier to entry, and the league as a whole can't really improve with it in its current format. The league should be doing everything it can to get more clubs taking the step up to senior level. Every other country in Europe operates that way.


* - Rovers suggested that each club should be forced to buy 250 adult tickets in advance for each away game. If they sold them all, then there was no issue. If they sold, say, 50, then that would make up for Rovers subsidising the likes of Bray. That's the level of petty self-interest clubs operate on. Let's not kid ourselves about that.

Don't know about Dundalk but Rovers were against the proposal because of the proposed redistribution of transfer fees received which considering the plans Rovers had in motion at the time impacted them far more than any other club.
And the problem with the expansion was that it was to be done instantly which doesn't make sense for any party.


I also don't recall rovers suggesting the buying 250 away tickets in advance

[pineapple stu]

Don't know about Dundalk but Rovers were against the proposal because of the proposed redistribution of transfer fees received which considering the plans Rovers had in motion at the time impacted them far more than any other club.
Which is fair, albeit that it comes under the self-interest category again.


And the problem with the expansion was that it was to be done instantly which doesn't make sense for any party.
No it wasn't? It in fact can't be done instantly because the leagues need to be joined up first.


I also don't recall rovers suggesting the buying 250 away tickets in advance
It was said as part a general feedback request.

[oriel]

Not so. There are 8 "established" Premier teams - Linfield, Glentoran, Cliftonville, Crusaders, Dungannon, Coleraine, Glenavon and Ballymena.

Over the last decade alone they have been joined at various times by Institute, Carrick R, Warrenpoint, Larne, Newry C, Ards, Ballinamallard, L. Distillery, Donegal C amd Portadown (10). Now that Newry are sorted, all of those are stable, bar Donegal Celtic(?), with Portadown easily having the potential to become the 9th establishment club, if they ever sort themselves out. (Though tbf, they looked certs for promotion this season until Covid-19 intervened.)



Are you sure Dungannon would be included in this group of 'established' clubs, last time I looked them up their avg was well below 500, as for the second grouping you listed, you can remove Newry from that, I have friends living up there, tiny support and the club is largely ignored throughout the town. I would say by far Portadown would be next best placed, possibly Larne too.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Which is fair, albeit that it comes under the self-interest category again.


No it wasn't? It in fact can't be done instantly because the leagues need to be joined up first.


It was said as part a general feedback request.

Wouldn't call it self interest, especially in LOI, because if you have that clause in the LOI then you take away a lot of the advantages of offering long term contracts which is ultimately what we want.

I meant instantly as in the league would have jumped from 12 to 16 in one go, not as in it would be done straight away.

[pineapple stu]

Wouldn't call it self interest, especially in LOI, because if you have that clause in the LOI then you take away a lot of the advantages of offering long term contracts which is ultimately what we want.
You do, but the flip side is that the benefit gained by having the FAI buy-in and increased investment should, in theory, outweigh that. An FAI who are actively invested in seeing Rovers get to the group stages of Europe or make more money from transfers would be very beneficial for Rovers. It's obviously ridiculous that they wouldn't be doing that anyway as, you know, part of their job, but that's the position we're in.


I meant instantly as in the league would have jumped from 12 to 16 in one go, not as in it would be done straight away.
OK. I still don't agree tbh - the point is to get rid of the First Division and that's not something you can do in dribs and drabs (you can't reduce down to a 12/6 PD/FD split, and then a 14/4 split for example). You'd need to have the leagues aligned and licensing matters sorted before going ahead with it of course, but I don't see how you do it other than in one go.

But lookit - moot point really!

[RathfarnhamHoop]

You do, but the flip side is that the benefit gained by having the FAI buy-in and increased investment should, in theory, outweigh that. An FAI who are actively invested in seeing Rovers get to the group stages of Europe or make more money from transfers would be very beneficial for Rovers. It's obviously ridiculous that they wouldn't be doing that anyway as, you know, part of their job, but that's the position we're in.


OK. I still don't agree tbh - the point is to get rid of the First Division and that's not something you can do in dribs and drabs (you can't reduce down to a 12/6 PD/FD split, and then a 14/4 split for example). You'd need to have the leagues aligned and licensing matters sorted before going ahead with it of course, but I don't see how you do it other than in one go.

But lookit - moot point really!

Yeah of course my point was just that being against the 16 team league proposal couldn't just be marked down to self interests because ultimately what appears to be self interest on the surface actually isn't when you consider the wider implications.

Yeah you can't do it in dribs and drabs but doing it in one go would just result in essentially two divisions in one, the proposal lacked and clarity on how it would be managed to avoid that so while going to 16 team league might actually be a good idea it would have to be done in the right way which I know was what some clubs problem with it was, not the end result but the how in order to get the best end result

[pineapple stu]

doing it in one go would just result in essentially two divisions in one, the proposal lacked and clarity on how it would be managed to avoid
Still don't agree with that actually. The point of the significant investment was to increase the standard across all club; €100-€150k extra for teams 9-16 would make a big difference (more than the same amount given to the top teams obviously), particularly when you look at the player drain the LoI seems to suffer, which has it as one of the youngest leagues in the world.

And I think even focusing on that over the flip side of the argument of needing to develop new clubs is also an inherently self-centred stance. Which, again, it's quite understandable. But I think to bring this back on topic a bit, this all stemmed from Nesta's comment that "Would Dundalk and Rovers really give out about [an expanded league] when it came to the crunch?" and then listing some of the exact arguments which you're raising now. So I think it's clear that Rovers/Dundalk would give out about it, which was where I was going with my original point.

(It also wasn't a proposal btw; it was a discussion document. The idea was to get some debate going on what the league could/should look like, rather than go into specifics on details, timelines, what margin of wins wouldn't be satisfactory initially, etc)

[EalingGreen]

Don't really agree. As I mentioned, most of the current FD have the potential to be vaguely competitive with some support behind them."most of... ... potential... ... vaguely... ... some support".
Not the deepest of foundations to be building a house on, I'd say.


That's why the suggestion wasn't just a 16-team Premier, but had other aspects to it, including E2m prize money (the FAI were supposed to be debt-free by 2020, thereby freeing up E3m a year of interest).Far from being "debt free", the FAI's debts were €62m at the start of the year, they've already used this years UEFA money as an advance and are relying (I think) on an €18m govt. bail-out just to keep the lights on.
The new lot might stop taking their annual €300k from the LOI, but that's a helluva way short of finding extra sums like €2m p.a. in prize money. And if the NT doesn't qualify for the next couple of tournaments (a possiblility), that's further huge revenues they'll miss out on.


The top half of the FD all have the potential to be competitive in the PD if invested in rather than funding the FAI. And anyway, as also mentioned, getting new clubs to step up is more important at the moment than ensuring all PD games are tight affairs.
"... all have the potential" - there's that word again.
And even if it's correct, whilst each individual club may have that potential, they're not all going to realise it en bloc in a season or two. At a very minimum, each would need major investment - both on and off the field - and that's nowhere in sight just now.
Further, this thread is asking where new clubs could come from. Cabinteely, Drogs, Longford, UCD, Bray and Cobh are all existing clubs, not new ones.
So that even if they could "step up", that just kicks the can (problem) further down the road, as outlined below.



It would completely get rid of the FD - that's the entire point. The second tier would be better structured as LSL/MSL/USL/CSL (maybe merge the last two). So you're keeping close to current structures but putting a clear pathway between the two levels.

Get rid of daft stuff like county district leagues for each county, two Limerick leagues, clubs switching from LSL to AUL to UCL. It's an utter absurdity of a system designed at generating big fish in small ponds who've no interest in improving. And that can only hinder the game hereOK, let us assume those 6 teams could step up to the PD.
That could only be sustained over a period with major, long-tern investment.
Even if there were people/organisations/businesses out there who might be inclined to consider it (huge "if" imo), are they going to invest in a club which could get relegated after a season or two to eg the MSL or USL/CSL?
Think of it in English terms. Championship clubs generally incur huge debts in order to reach the PL, with more while they try to become established. So that just in case they go back down quickly, they need huge parachute payments to withstand the shock. Even then, it isn't always enough, meaning that even big clubs like Sunderland and Ipswich can go down again.
Your suggested set-up could never hope to have anything like that sort of "safety net", meaning the "step-up" clubs you suggest and/or potential backers simply will not take that chance.
None of which should be a surprise, since it's basically why clubs currently below the two tiers of the LOI won't take a chance on applying for the FD, even when there's plenty of places.

Which is why I think the only hope of attracting stable, competitive new clubs which will not fold after a few years is by either:
(a ) devising, implementing, funding and operating professionally an all-encompassing plan for league football in the ROI over, say, the 20 year period necessary to allow new clubs to grow and develop organically and sustainably;
or
(b ) join up with the IL in an AIL of some sort.

[Martinho II]

We saw years ago when Kildare Co were formed it didnt work out. I dont know why Newbridge Town didnt enter a team back then as they have a high enough profile in the town considering I think ex Town player Paul Perth was/is mgr of them. Pity it didnt work out that.
As for the north they have the more stable structure. I have being following the NI league for at least 20 years and the only team I can remember going bust were Omagh Town. Now I could be wrong.
I for one think the timing is right for an all island league as theres a hell of a lot of grounds in the North I have never being too. I have only attended matches in the Oval and Windsor Park and drove past Newrys ground and would love to see that happen before I die imo.

[EalingGreen]

Are you sure Dungannon would be included in this group of 'established' clubs, last time I looked them up their avg was well below 500, as for the second grouping you listed, you can remove Newry from that, I have friends living up there, tiny support and the club is largely ignored throughout the town. I would say by far Portadown would be next best placed, possibly Larne too.Swifts are a small club, no doubt, but having been founded in 1949, they've managed to build and develop Stangmore into a very tidy wee stadium, perfectly adequate for their own needs in the top tier. I suspect they're near enough debt-free, or at least with serviceable debts, since I can't recall them ever being in huge financial trouble, never mind going bust. And they've now survived in the top tier for nearly two decades unbroken (they did once have to survive a relegation play-off; as against that, they've also twice finished fourth).

To do that on very small gates over such a period is a tribute to their management, and is what I meant by "established".

And again, not wishing to appear smug or score points etc, how many comparably-sized LOI clubs could say the same (esp provincial ones)?

[EalingGreen]

We saw years ago when Kildare Co were formed it didnt work out. I dont know why Newbridge Town didnt enter a team back then as they have a high enough profile in the town considering I think ex Town player Paul Perth was/is mgr of them. Pity it didnt work out that.
As for the north they have the more stable structure. I have being following the NI league for at least 20 years and the only team I can remember going bust were Omagh Town. Now I could be wrong.
Tbh, Omagh has never really been a proper "football" town imo, it's strong GAA territory. And such football as there is is divided between a number of clubs in/around the town, who are more interested in outdoing each other than combining to pool their resources. Meanwhile, even when Omagh Town were giving it a go, there were, shall we say, question marks over the finances of the club. (Think "Father Ted" and "money resting in accounts").
Meanwhile, Newry Town went bust, but soon came back as "Newry City" and whilst again a v.small affair, they do still have The Showgrounds and do seem to be getting by in the second tier.
Beyond that, 2 or 3 bigger clubs came very close to going bust a decade or more ago, most notably Glentoran and Coleraine, but they all seem finally to have got their house in order since. (Bangor FC saw a crisis coming and decided the Premier Division wasn't for them, preferring instead to cut their cloth in the Championship. They're now in the third tier, but at least they never went bust owing people money afaik).
The key was that they all stopped paying big wages they couldn't afford for "name" players, in order to keep up with Linfield, instead staying p-t and living broadly within their means.
The senior clubs taking over the running of their leagues also helped, along with an IFA which whilst never the most progressive or professional of organisations (understatement!), at least avoided the worst of the mistreatment meted out on the LOI by the FAI.



I for one think the timing is right for an all island league as theres a hell of a lot of grounds in the North I have never being too. I have only attended matches in the Oval and Windsor Park and drove past Newrys ground and would love to see that happen before I die imo.I'm not in a position to comment on LOI grounds, nor have I been to every current IL ground. But I get the strong impression that IL grounds are overall better suited to clubs' needs and better maintained/updated than those in the LOI. Plus clubs nearly all own their grounds, with Linfield (IFA) and Ballymena (Council) having secure tenure.
Plus there is somethinh like £30m funding(?) set aside at Stormont for regional football grounds development, which was delayed when the Assembly was suspended. It should still be there, but with this Covid crisis, it wouldn't surprise me greatly if doesn't materialise.

[oriel]

I didnt realised Dungannon were in the IL top div for almost 20 years.

On the question re established IL clubs v LOI, not sure fair comparsion, as IL is almost all part time, so far less pressures, I'd imagine even the running of clubs are vastly different between daily and biggest full time clubs like of Dundalk and Rovers to top 2 or 3 in IL.

Possibly mid table LOI say from 4th to 7th would be even operating at a higher level than top 3 in IL?

Then again being part time has its benefits too, less financial pressures, but less potential income streams.

[EalingGreen]

I didnt realised Dungannon were in the IL top div for almost 20 years.

On the question re established IL clubs v LOI, not sure fair comparsion, as IL is almost all part time, so far less pressures, I'd imagine even the running of clubs are vastly different between daily and biggest full time clubs like of Dundalk and Rovers to top 2 or 3 in IL.

Possibly mid table LOI say from 4th to 7th would be even operating at a higher level than top 3 in IL?

Then again being part time has its benefits too, less financial pressures, but less potential income streams.All fair points.

As against that, though, I think I'm right in saying a few LOI clubs depend, or have depended upon rich benefactors funding them - eg Derry and Waterford.

The only two IL clubs to which that applies are Larne and Glentoran, both very recent.

With Larne, their guy is a genuine fan from boyhood, who looks to be good for the money (hope Covid doesn't prove that wrong) and who is spending money on stadium and training infrastructure as well as players. That could see them established over the long term so that eventually they could hold their own in the top tier without the need for subsidy.

As for the Glens, it should always raise an eyebrow when "Wealthy Anglo-Iranian Businessman invests in Belfast football club", but so far, at least, the fans think him bona fide. And their (once huge) debts have finally all been cleared. And I know I'm biased, but I have no doubt that properly run, the Glens have the potential to be as big as any club in Ireland. After all they've been there or thereabouts before during their long history, with the support and infrastructure to match, so there's no good reason to believe they can't be again.

Meanwhile, it seems a hefty chunk of Stormont's Regional Stadium Development money has been earmarked for The Oval (maybe as much as £10M?).

P.S. One other factor. IL clubs have had to manage this whilst also copping for 20% VAT on all gate receipts, unlike the LOI (Derry excepted). Well all declared gate receipts at any rate!

[Nesta99]

There are no magic beans for Irish club football.

Well...Dundalk and Rovers while long established brands in LoI have had their few magic beans ie investors that actually do have genuine deep pockets and its not someone playing lets pretend or a land grab; So far so good they havent shipped out yet either, and Rovers got a stadium built for them too!! Its as close as ye get to magic beans in LoI....

[EatYerGreens]

Not so. There are 8 "established" Premier teams - Linfield, Glentoran, Cliftonville, Crusaders, Dungannon, Coleraine, Glenavon and Ballymena.

Over the last decade alone they have been joined at various times by Institute, Carrick R, Warrenpoint, Larne, Newry C, Ards, Ballinamallard, L. Distillery, Donegal C amd Portadown (10). Now that Newry are sorted, all of those are stable, bar Donegal Celtic(?), with Portadown easily having the potential to become the 9th establishment club, if they ever sort themselves out. (Though tbf, they looked certs for promotion this season until Covid-19 intervened.)

Meanwhile, Armagh C, Ballyclare, Dundela, the Welders, Limavady, Loughgall and Bangor (7) are all long-established, some have been in the top tier, and each might hope to be the next "breakthrough" club, given time and investment, like eg Ballinamallard and Warrenpoint have done.

So even if the IL operates at an obviously more modest level than the LOI, it nonetheless has a depth which your league doesn't appear to have. (To me, at any rate - I'm open to correction)


My point was that outside of those 8 teams you've listed, the other clubs who have gone up to the top tier have all gone back down again fairly soon after. The last club to get promoted and remain there was Dungannon ? Which was after they won the First Division in 2003. That's with a current 12 team top division (it was 16 until about a decade ago ?). Larne will no doubt repeat that feat and stay up for a good while now - but essentially through buying their way into the top level.

The LOI just feels less of an establishment lock-out than the Irish League. Clubs like Bray, Finn Harps, UCD and Waterford can get promoted and then stay in the top tier for a good few seasons in a 10 or 12 team top league. The only real churn within the IL establishment was Portadown getting relegated for messing up their paperwork, from which they've struggled to return. The last time anyone won the Irish Cup outside of the 8 teams you mentioned was Portadown 15 years ago - when they were also part of the establishment. Prior to that you have to go back to Bangor in 1993.

Likewise for the league. 41% of all Irish League titles have been won by a single club = Linfield (not including this season). Add in Glentoran and it's 59%. The third most successful club in league title wins hasn't kicked a ball in over 70years (Belfast Celtic). I think the last time a club outside of the IL establishment/aristocracy won the league was Derry City in 1965 ?

In contrast, the LOI has had all sorts of people winning its league and cup over the last 20 years. A number of them (but by no means all) burned their bank account whilst doing so. Which is essentially my point.

The Irish League has avoided financial bedlam by clubs not trying to kick start an arms race. But counter-intuitively that lack of money has made it LESS competitive, not more. There has been no Irish League equivalent of Longford Town winning the FAI Cup twice in a row (along with the League Cup) for example, because black swan events just don't happen in the Irish league. Hence why I described it as a lock-out.

[pineapple stu]

"most of... ... potential... ... vaguely... ... some support".
Not the deepest of foundations to be building a house on, I'd say.
Yes - but the likes of Drogheda, Galway, Longford, Bray, UCD have all been competitive in the Premier in recent years. UCD aside, you're not talking about adding a Ballinamallard/Warrenpoint/etc with any of those clubs. The FD changes a club to a remarkable extent. Look at Shels in the first few games back this year to see the impact being promoted can have. Add in extra prize money to bolster club budgets and stem the drain of players from the league, and there's no reason to believe any of those would be particularly bad.


Far from being "debt free", the FAI's debts were €62m at the start of the year, they've already used this years UEFA money as an advance and are relying (I think) on an €18m govt. bail-out just to keep the lights on.
Well obviously. This was a 2016 document though. The FAI being bankrupt at a time of impending global recession/depression is probably the biggest issue facing the LoI now.


Further, this thread is asking where new clubs could come from. Cabinteely, Drogs, Longford, UCD, Bray and Cobh are all existing clubs, not new ones.
I think you're just stating the obvious for kicks now! Yes, those are all existing clubs, in response to a worry that the bottom half of the division would be grossly uncompetitive. I don't think it would be. Where would the new clubs come from? I don't know - and I don't think the idea of saying "Kerry could support a team" is the right way of looking at it. There's much more to the question than just catchment area. But give non-league clubs a reason to want to step up, and you'll find the best candidates will naturally emerge.


That could only be sustained over a period with major, long-tern investment.
Agreed. And agreed candidates are short on supply for that - so it has to be the FAI. €2m per year isn't a huge amount out of their budget if (a) they can recoup some of their investment in terms of a small tax on Euro/transfer money and (b) they were run competently, not criminally.


Think of it in English terms. Championship clubs generally incur huge debts in order to reach the PL, with more while they try to become established. So that just in case they go back down quickly, they need huge parachute payments to withstand the shock. Even then, it isn't always enough, meaning that even big clubs like Sunderland and Ipswich can go down again.
Your suggested set-up could never hope to have anything like that sort of "safety net", meaning the "step-up" clubs you suggest and/or potential backers simply will not take that chance.
The figures here aren't comparable to England. €100k, while a boost to clubs which would act as an incentive to step up, isn't as life-changing a sum of money as the Premier League offers. Also, you'd have to set up the second tier to reduce costs naturally - regionalised to reduce travel costs, maybe reduced youth team costs, reduced coaching requirements, a shorter season, etc. It would still be a step up from LSL/MSL to LoI - but that's pretty much what promotion is about of course.



Which is why I think the only hope of attracting stable, competitive new clubs which will not fold after a few years is by either:
(a ) devising, implementing, funding and operating professionally an all-encompassing plan for league football in the ROI over, say, the 20 year period necessary to allow new clubs to grow and develop organically and sustainably
That's pretty much what I was talking about though.

This isn't an exact science obviously. But it's a setup which would have a clear pathway for new clubs to come through, encouragement for them to do so, and a way back out for them if it comes to it. Right now there's none of that.


(b ) join up with the IL in an AIL of some sort.
What's an "AIL of some sort" going to change though?

[oriel]

All fair points.

As against that, though, I think I'm right in saying a few LOI clubs depend, or have depended upon rich benefactors funding them - eg Derry and Waterford.



You make some good points EG and appear to be very well on the money with IL stuff, almost reporter-esq stuff such is your knowledge !

Correct on benefactors for a lot of clubs in LOI, Dundalk are owned by P6 led US consortium, Rovers have investors and soon possibly more from Dermot Desmond, Bohs is a members club, Pats main investors is a developer and so on. Worth noting though before p6 arrived to Dundalk, the club had over 3m in cash, hard earned on the pitch (prob just below 2m now I think, due to 500k spent on the training facilities and issues with the lease + wages shortfalls) - but that's was attracted p6 in the first place, the cash ! How long they stay - who knows, but they seem to be well settled for now, but with C-19 still lurking around?

Interesting point you made on Glentoran investors !

[EalingGreen]

To save things getting bogged down debating all the points raised by 'Oriel', 'P.Stu' and 'Eat YG' etc; also to clear up confusion over the definition of "competitive", "established" "stable" etc, it may be better (and quicker!) if I went back to first principles.

The general view is that with its history, population and economy etc, ROI should be able to sustain a professional league structure nearer in scale to eg Scotland or Denmark than the present somewhat limited set-up - seems reasonable to me.

But the big problem is that even with the necessary investment and administration etc, where do you get the extra clubs to realise this potential? (See thread title again!). As I see it, the PD currently has 10 clubs which should be up to it comfortably enough, notwithstanding that some rely heavily on wealthy backers and half(?) have gone bust in recent times - some of them more than once.

But when you look below that to the FD, it seems very patchy to me. Drogs, Bray, Cobh, Wexford and Longford might each be able to step up in theory, but realistically, they're not all going to do so. Cabinteely still have miles to go, UCD have coped in the PD up til now, but in a bigger, more professional environment? Athlone and Galway are basket cases (no offence intended) and then there's Limerick, poor, poor Limerick. (Sorry Gspain).

And recent experience suggests (confirms?) that looking to new towns or counties with big populations but no LOI clubs or history is even less likely to work - you know the numerous failed attempts better than me.

Which means that you're stuck with 12 or 14 clubs, 16 at most, to exploit this as yet unrealised potential to expand. And when you consider how few of all of those clubs have avoided examinership and bust over the last couple of decades i.e. potential casualties, that doesn't seem to me to be a big enough pool, frankly.

Meanwhile, there is a view that the domestic set-up in NI also has potential to expand, just not so far as in ROI (obviously). On which point, I honestly believe that finding a sufficient number of clubs from the existing pyramid will actually pose less of a problem. Referring back to post #112, these can be listed as:

[A] Already "established" Premier teams - Linfield, Glentoran, Cliftonville, Crusaders, Dungannon, Coleraine, Glenavon and Ballymena (8).

[B] The "next level", incl clubs which are currently in the top tier - Larne, Institute, Warrenpoint; clubs which are close - Portadown, Ballinamallard; clubs which have been there fairly recently Carrick R, Newry C (7)

[C] The "outsiders" who with investment shouldn't be absolutely ruled out - Armagh C, Ballyclare, Dundela, Welders, Limavady, Loughgall, Bangor, Distillery and Donegal C (9). These would obviously have a huge way to go, but bear in mind that nearly all are very long-established and own their own stadia, few have gone bust at any stage and most are reasonably secure. They also represent a wide geographical spread.

Now I'm not saying any of the 19 clubs outside the top five (Linfield, Crues, C'ville, Coleraine and Glens) could hope to win the title any time soon, but there should be enough to be able to expand the present top tier to 12 or 14 clubs at a higher level, without having to fillet the second tier, or compromise the pyramid further down.

[As it happens, I believe the big threat to expansion is not having sufficient clubs, but the top half dozen clubs going f-t and closing off all the European money, such that the rest cannot prevent from a huge gap opening up, thereby cementing their "2nd class" status permanently. But that's still a way off.]

Anyhow, the above all suggests to me that combining the top LOI clubs with the top IL clubs in some sort of all-island set up, should provide a far quicker, realistic and achievable way to realise the untapped potential for football in ROI (and NI, obv), rather than the LOI trying to go it alone.

[EatYerGreens]

I agree with your sentiment here EG. That an all-island league is the most realistic way to create the sort of scale and depth that the 2 leagues lack individually.

Two minor things though. I don't think it's at all fair for anyone to expect ROI to be like Scotland or Denmark. Both those countries have football as their national sport, and by a country mile. Not so ROI - where domestic football is only the fourth-favourite spectator sport. There also the added problem that football is an urban sport and the Republic is extremely skewed to just one urban centre, whereas Scotland (but not Denmark) has a less polarised urban structure. Cork is the Republic's second city, whereas if it was in Scotland it would be only the fourth biggest there. Dundee is halfway between the size of Derry and Cork, yet has sustained two well-supported professional clubs for decades. So I really don't think such a comparison is fair, just because ROI, Denmark and Scotland are all of roughly similar populations.

And a really minor point : I'd disagree with your analysis of the chances of a few clubs in the north there, but especially Harland and Wolff Welders. I'd say there's no chance of them ever being genuine challengers in the IL. They're the work's team of a company that nearly went bust a few month's back. And their 'stadium' is poor (even if they do hope to redevelop it). Where would they get support from - given that anyone in East Belfast with a connection to the shipyards is probably already a Glens fan, and the shipyard could feasibly close at some future point?

[Nesta99]

Get rid of daft stuff like county district leagues for each county, two Limerick leagues, clubs switching from LSL to AUL to UCL. It's an utter absurdity of a system designed at generating big fish in small ponds who've no interest in improving. And that can only hinder the game here

Some serious ambition but liking the positive thinking Stu! Hardwicke FC v Arsenal has a few puns for the back pages but a club called Dublin Celtic FC would certainly get the floating fan ala Dublin City FC especially if they and their Glasgow namesakes make the group stages....

Im overdue a ridiculously long post sooo.....

Great thread to read through! Good to get an outside perspective EG so thanks for that and some interesting points all round - this virus must have another symptom of dulling tribal nature of LoI fans on foot.ie ;). On EG's point of adding 'weaker' clubs to an expanded premier, it in itself would improve competativeness in the lower half of the Premier and could lessen the times that teams get cut loose by 10+ points. For a number of seasons at least, as at some stage clubs that are 1st Division/lower Premier will grow beyond being regular relegation fodder, not ignoring that top clubs can go in to freefall too. But early doors it would be a kind of league within a league of clubs at a similar level, and with that, local interest and media coverage maybe = improved attendances, sponsorship, income - a real opportunity if it is not spurned, could even be a selling point to the belligerent. I see it as all about growth of the game generally, not paring back to smaller and smaller numbers competing at the highest level and doing a local version of UEFA's exclusive, almost invite only policy. An All Island League does seem to be the most obvious and in some ways simplest solution to issues in both leagues. I dont like proposals that have in the past or continue to mooted as solutions to structure - 8 teams? Daft, and if it weren't for the fact that the top 2 clubs werent against it I'd have assumed it was a typical FAI quick fix to the numbers in the first Division.

I'm not sure that higher running costs of LoI has held back ground improvements as I feel it's more a culture of the league historically, certainly from the 70's and early 80's - if IL and LoI were directly comparable (PT, similar attendances, SCGs etc), I still think the IL would have pulled ahead on infrastructure anyway with LoI clubs generally (I havent forgotten Sligo) tending to prioritise the football side of things. In saying that there is the advantage to having medium to large amounts of government money available in decent tranches like in the Northrather than the piecemeal amounts that are often granted here. What is the largest amount provided to a LoI ground development bar Tallaght as the obvious one? The only only one done properly ie 3 new stands started and finished without bits year on year; Well not exactly like that with the initial build but that is conversely a great example of of the issues created by not fully funding projects from the start with the DoTTS auditing construction and the books at points of progression - protecting the grant, club, and construction company.

I get a bit irritated when people suggest the merger of clubs citing the rugby example, and there issues with the tried, tested and often failed efforts to establish new clubs in a population centre. With new regionalised 1st Divisions though, it may be possible to form new clubs or incentivise clubs combining at senior level. I know the latter has the high profile attempt in Galway but that was always going to be messy with the one-upmanship nature of that project, but done properly without existing emnity as the driving force behind it and it has to be a possiblity. Wexford Youths could be successful example of a club formed in an unrepresented area!? Look to clubs that have been in senior football and see if there is a way back. Just because something was tried in the past and didnt work doent mean it should never be considered again. To me this sounds too much like the agenda driven rhetoric of people terrified of losing their ego driven, big cheese opinion of themselves, and their need to have something to show off to their cronies - they'd have no other reason to get out the shiny nylon suit they got for their Euro '88 junkets!:rolleyes: *I should have included fear of not driving the anti-Irish football agenda of the FAI chief dictator also!

Some possibilities off the top of the head - if someone knows there is 'no chance' ('all of them' is not allowed!), established junior clubs that could step up or other options i'd be interested in opinions!

Monaghan, Cavan, East Leitrim (if Leitrim really does exist), Monaghan United could step up again. At underage MUFC and Cavan Schoolboys already combine afaik!?

Mayo could host a side, Castlebar being the obvious spot but could be a County side.

Clare-Ennis?

Tipperary - Thurles Town+Peake Villa could have another go or a club in Nenagh. One side of the family is from Nenagh and I'd love to see both towns have clubs as the rivalry already would have serious crowds out for the derby and both would have the hurls out with them if heading to Clonmel( too close to WFC?).

Kerry - Tralee or Killarney, where's Legendz when ye need him?

Kilkenny/Carlow - Kilkenny City back playing senior ball, Carlow's another spot I'm not sure really exists?!

Laois - Portlaoise. Westmeath - Mullingar Town FC were willing before albeit shafted when A-Champions ship was ditched but could go again. Athlone Town FC are obviously about in the midlands but they are almost like a mythical entity too these days.

Kildare - Kildare County was tried but this time they'd at least sell out every home game v Dundalk as every (real) Lilywhite would be on a pilgrimage to see the place of the Miracle of Station Road!!!

and finally Meath - Navan or maybe Trim.

Yup I know there is a whole lot of 'ideal world' type thinking. There is probably some infringing on existing clubs catchment; I've likely misjudjed the distance between places and are realistically too close to existing clubs to thrive at all, but then again if the smallest county can keep 2 senior clubs alive, if occasionally on life support, its not a definite no!? There are hotbeds of other sports but I dont think that should ever really be a reason just totally rule out a spot. In the commuter belt people could already have their club but some of the natives might be convinced. It's a regular criticism that LoI isnt really a national league but if there was ever a chance to address the inbalance it is via a new regionalised 2nd tier. Considering the size of N.I. and the amount of clubs that have access to the highest level of the game there, we have no excuse in that regard. And apologies if the above sounds like some half assed, hungover homeschooling geography effort...

All the old nuggets remain of course and need to be sorted - we all know what they are without listing them, so if we are ever able to offer entry to clubs where there is financial gain rather than punitive cost, even if bottom of the heap, then we will have seen real reform of the game in Ireland! We shouldnt have to worry that the greatest resistance to any change will be from within the game as some people cling to being a a big fish in their tiny pond, it's nearly as difficult an obstacle than the FAI's finances! Sadly there might be a place or two available in either division for any takers come next season if there is no consensus is reached on how to restart this season.

The End.

[Pablo Escobar]

Cork is the Republic's second city, whereas if it was in Scotland it would be only the fourth biggest there.

I think that an administration line problem. On paper Cork City admin area is roughly the same size as the Aberdeen equivalent, but if you look at the metro numbers Cork a good bit bigger so would comfortably be number 3 from a catchment perspective. Cork re-drew it’s city boundary last year but due to pushback from the County Council, the City Council didn’t make it as big as they initially wanted.

[pineapple stu]

But when you look below that to the FD, it seems very patchy to me. Drogs, Bray, Cobh, Wexford and Longford might each be able to step up in theory, but realistically, they're not all going to do so. Cabinteely still have miles to go, UCD have coped in the PD up til now, but in a bigger, more professional environment? Athlone and Galway are basket cases (no offence intended) and then there's Limerick, poor, poor Limerick. (Sorry Gspain).
Just on this - I don't think Galway are remotely in the same category as Athlone. They're well capable of pulling in crowds of 3-4k for big games. They had solid crowds in their last Premier stint as well. Drogheda are former league champions with a bit of history behind them (albeit funded on air) - and even Limerick drew in ok crowds when in the Premier in 2017, albeit again funded on nothing. But invest in them and the potential is there. UCD were more often than not mid-table in the bigger, more professional environment of the 2000s btw. Bray and Longford are somewhere in the middle - probably never going to be major clubs, but there's enough Dublin cast-offs for them to get by.

Cobh, Wexford and Cabinteely certainly have a ways to go - yet part of Cabo's problem is that they were dropped into the league six weeks before the start of a new season with no squad, no ground, and no momentum. They needed a good start to build on what seemed to be potential, but were never going to get it.

And that's the inherent problem with the current system. The question of "Where will the new clubs come from?" is largely redundant while the current system is designed to hinder new clubs at every turn. The A League was even worse - catapult a club into a reserve league below the First Division? It's amazing they got any takers really.

If you set up a system designed to encourage new clubs to step up, then you are far more likely to find clubs. Again, which clubs those are can't be answered by looking at catchment area - one investor in a regional town could make a difference, or one ambitious and well-organised committee. Edenderry in Offaly got 1,250 through the gate when they played Derry in the FAI Cup a few years back for example. Could they step up? In theory, why not? But the answer won't just be down to the fact there's 7,500 people in the town.


[B] The "next level", incl clubs which are currently in the top tier - Larne, Institute, Warrenpoint; clubs which are close - Portadown, Ballinamallard; clubs which have been there fairly recently Carrick R, Newry C (7)

[C] The "outsiders" who with investment shouldn't be absolutely ruled out - Armagh C, Ballyclare, Dundela, Welders, Limavady, Loughgall, Bangor, Distillery and Donegal C (9).
To be honest, most of these clubs are smaller than the Athlone/Galway/Limerick/UCD you've been dismissive of. I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it here. If those four LoI clubs aren't suitable, then neither are the vast majority of the IL clubs you've listed. If the above IL list is the calibre of club you think is necessary for a league to improve and expand, then the LoI has potentially lots of them in the MSL/LSL and just needs to encourage them to take the step up.

I've been to Home Park in Armagh for example. A fairly bog-standard small ground with a bar and a bit of a community feel to it. An awful team, from what I recall, and this was in the top flight. But in what way is that really different to, say, Tullamore Town? They also have a bog-standard small ground with a bar and a bit of a community feel to it. Not a great side either when UCD played them in the League Cup maybe ten years ago. But they were in the A League a few years back so had some vague interest in stepping up. But right now, they'd be mad to. And that's the problem.

So I don't think you just can list of the third tier of the IL and conclude that there's nothing comparable in the MSL/LSL.


Anyhow, the above all suggests to me that combining the top LOI clubs with the top IL clubs in some sort of all-island set up, should provide a far quicker, realistic and achievable way to realise the untapped potential for football in ROI (and NI, obv), rather than the LOI trying to go it alone.
I don't think you've really said anything to back this up tbh. I'm in favour of an AIL in general - but Larne v St Pat's isn't going to be a gamechanger for either club. (In fact, given an AIL would likely remove half the European spaces, it would be a nett drain on the league financially. Unless this HyperCube or whoever it was project works out. And that's a long way off)

[nigel-harps1954]

No idea if plans will change with the impending recession, but Mayo (playing out of Milebush Park), Monaghan United, Kerry League and Kilkenny/Carlow, all have signalled plans to step into the league in the next handful of years. All within the underage setup currently.

With a returning Limerick team, you'd hope we'd see a return to two 12 team leagues.

Keep those sustainable before looking at any other 'new' teams.

Nesta gives a fine list of towns above, but I don't think the appetite is really there in big GAA areas. I have my doubts over a Kilkenny/Carlow team ever actually doing anything too. I'd actually go as far as suggesting a Carlow Town team would be much better off than Kilkenny. Much the same size as Kilkenny, football is much bigger there. For a county of it's size, there's about 20 teams in the local league, and it's of a half decent standard too. Problem is, stadium. Carlow IT has superb facilities, but unless they used the GAA pitch with the main stand, there's no decent football ground capable of hosting LOI football.

[EatYerGreens]

I think that an administration line problem. On paper Cork City admin area is roughly the same size as the Aberdeen equivalent, but if you look at the metro numbers Cork a good bit bigger so would comfortably be number 3 from a catchment perspective. Cork re-drew it’s city boundary last year but due to pushback from the County Council, the City Council didn’t make it as big as they initially wanted.

Whether it'd be 4th or 3rd ranking in Scotland - it wouldn't be second. So the point still stands I think. And once you get below Cork, cities in the ROI are really just small towns. The Republic's third largest 'city' - Limerick - is half the size of Scotland's 4th largest city (Dundee).

There is a broadly uniform rule regarding the relative size of cities within countries around the world, which Scotland follows pretty closely. The Republic doesn't - and is effectively missing at least one city size-wise between Dublin and Cork (I don't think it would be accurate to say that hole is effectively Belfast-shaped either). The Republic has basically urbanised relatively late in its history, and also made no significant attempt at regional balance. It's why the Dublin property market has been such a rollercoaster basket case over the last 20years. The Republic has put all its eggs in that one city/basket.

With football essentially an urban sport - we'd most probably have one or two more clubs in the LOI if there was another city half-way between Dublin and Cork size-wise.

[EatYerGreens]

Some serious ambition but liking the positive thinking Stu! Hardwicke FC v Arsenal has a few puns for the back pages but a club called Dublin Celtic FC would certainly get the floating fan ala Dublin City FC especially if they and their Glasgow namesakes make the group stages....

Im overdue a ridiculously long post sooo.....

Great thread to read through! Good to get an outside perspective EG so thanks for that and some interesting points all round - this virus must have another symptom of dulling tribal nature of LoI fans on foot.ie ;). On EG's point of adding 'weaker' clubs to an expanded premier, it in itself would improve competativeness in the lower half of the Premier and could lessen the times that teams get cut loose by 10+ points. For a number of seasons at least, as at some stage clubs that are 1st Division/lower Premier will grow beyond being regular relegation fodder, not ignoring that top clubs can go in to freefall too. But early doors it would be a kind of league within a league of clubs at a similar level, and with that, local interest and media coverage maybe = improved attendances, sponsorship, income - a real opportunity if it is not spurned, could even be a selling point to the belligerent. I see it as all about growth of the game generally, not paring back to smaller and smaller numbers competing at the highest level and doing a local version of UEFA's exclusive, almost invite only policy. An All Island League does seem to be the most obvious and in some ways simplest solution to issues in both leagues. I dont like proposals that have in the past or continue to mooted as solutions to structure - 8 teams? Daft, and if it weren't for the fact that the top 2 clubs werent against it I'd have assumed it was a typical FAI quick fix to the numbers in the first Division.

I'm not sure that higher running costs of LoI has held back ground improvements as I feel it's more a culture of the league historically, certainly from the 70's and early 80's - if IL and LoI were directly comparable (PT, similar attendances, SCGs etc), I still think the IL would have pulled ahead on infrastructure anyway with LoI clubs generally (I havent forgotten Sligo) tending to prioritise the football side of things. In saying that there is the advantage to having medium to large amounts of government money available in decent tranches like in the Northrather than the piecemeal amounts that are often granted here. What is the largest amount provided to a LoI ground development bar Tallaght as the obvious one? The only only one done properly ie 3 new stands started and finished without bits year on year; Well not exactly like that with the initial build but that is conversely a great example of of the issues created by not fully funding projects from the start with the DoTTS auditing construction and the books at points of progression - protecting the grant, club, and construction company.

I get a bit irritated when people suggest the merger of clubs citing the rugby example, and there issues with the tried, tested and often failed efforts to establish new clubs in a population centre. With new regionalised 1st Divisions though, it may be possible to form new clubs or incentivise clubs combining at senior level. I know the latter has the high profile attempt in Galway but that was always going to be messy with the one-upmanship nature of that project, but done properly without existing emnity as the driving force behind it and it has to be a possiblity. Wexford Youths could be successful example of a club formed in an unrepresented area!? Look to clubs that have been in senior football and see if there is a way back. Just because something was tried in the past and didnt work doent mean it should never be considered again. To me this sounds too much like the agenda driven rhetoric of people terrified of losing their ego driven, big cheese opinion of themselves, and their need to have something to show off to their cronies - they'd have no other reason to get out the shiny nylon suit they got for their Euro '88 junkets!:rolleyes: *I should have included fear of not driving the anti-Irish football agenda of the FAI chief dictator also!

Some possibilities off the top of the head - if someone knows there is 'no chance' ('all of them' is not allowed!), established junior clubs that could step up or other options i'd be interested in opinions!

Monaghan, Cavan, East Leitrim (if Leitrim really does exist), Monaghan United could step up again. At underage MUFC and Cavan Schoolboys already combine afaik!?

Mayo could host a side, Castlebar being the obvious spot but could be a County side.

Clare-Ennis?

Tipperary - Thurles Town+Peake Villa could have another go or a club in Nenagh. One side of the family is from Nenagh and I'd love to see both towns have clubs as the rivalry already would have serious crowds out for the derby and both would have the hurls out with them if heading to Clonmel( too close to WFC?).

Kerry - Tralee or Killarney, where's Legendz when ye need him?

Kilkenny/Carlow - Kilkenny City back playing senior ball, Carlow's another spot I'm not sure really exists?!

Laois - Portlaoise. Westmeath - Mullingar Town FC were willing before albeit shafted when A-Champions ship was ditched but could go again. Athlone Town FC are obviously about in the midlands but they are almost like a mythical entity too these days.

Kildare - Kildare County was tried but this time they'd at least sell out every home game v Dundalk as every (real) Lilywhite would be on a pilgrimage to see the place of the Miracle of Station Road!!!

and finally Meath - Navan or maybe Trim.

Yup I know there is a whole lot of 'ideal world' type thinking. There is probably some infringing on existing clubs catchment; I've likely misjudjed the distance between places and are realistically too close to existing clubs to thrive at all, but then again if the smallest county can keep 2 senior clubs alive, if occasionally on life support, its not a definite no!? There are hotbeds of other sports but I dont think that should ever really be a reason just totally rule out a spot. In the commuter belt people could already have their club but some of the natives might be convinced. It's a regular criticism that LoI isnt really a national league but if there was ever a chance to address the inbalance it is via a new regionalised 2nd tier. Considering the size of N.I. and the amount of clubs that have access to the highest level of the game there, we have no excuse in that regard. And apologies if the above some like a half assed, hungover homeschooling geography effort...

All the old nuggets remain of couse and need to be sorted - we all know what they are without listing them, so if we are ever able to offer entry to clubs where there is financial gain rather than punitive cost, even if bottom of the heap, then we will have seen real reform of the game in Ireland! We shouldnt have to worry that the greatest resistance to any change will be from within the game as some people cling to being a a big fish in their tiny pond, it's nearly as difficult an obstacle than the FAI's finances! Sadly there might be a place or two available in either division for any takers come next season if there is no consensus is reached on how to restart this season.

The End.


In brief response - ANYWHERE could host a new LOI side. But nowhere wants to. That's why we're 2-3 clubs down at the moment.

35 years ago the LOI expanded by taking in 6 new clubs. 18 years ago we had 2 clubs in just Mullingar alone fighting to join the LOI, and both lost out to Kildare, 9 years ago we had the early stage of a pyramid system, with clubs able to enter the LOI form the level below. Fast forward to now, and we can't get a single team anywhere genuinely interested in joining. Not one. Hence we've been running 2 teams short for the last few years, and 3 short effectively this season.

You can play fantasy club-creation all day long if you want. But it is utterly pointless, as no club anywhere wants to join our league currently. That's the start and end of it I'm afraid. Until the underlying issues which make taking the step up to LOI unattractive are tackled, this is all just moot and a bit silly IMO.

P.S. You know you've really lost the plot when you're proposing an LOI team for 'East Leitrim'. Firstly - There isn't really any East Leitrim though. It's more of a north and south kind of county. And secondly - I think there's almost as many people living in my street as there are in East Leitrim :D
P.P.S. If you think foot.ie/the LOI is tribal, wait until you meet the nordy supporters !

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Still don't agree with that actually. The point of the significant investment was to increase the standard across all club; €100-€150k extra for teams 9-16 would make a big difference (more than the same amount given to the top teams obviously), particularly when you look at the player drain the LoI seems to suffer, which has it as one of the youngest leagues in the world.

And I think even focusing on that over the flip side of the argument of needing to develop new clubs is also an inherently self-centred stance. Which, again, it's quite understandable. But I think to bring this back on topic a bit, this all stemmed from Nesta's comment that "Would Dundalk and Rovers really give out about [an expanded league] when it came to the crunch?" and then listing some of the exact arguments which you're raising now. So I think it's clear that Rovers/Dundalk would give out about it, which was where I was going with my original point.

(It also wasn't a proposal btw; it was a discussion document. The idea was to get some debate going on what the league could/should look like, rather than go into specifics on details, timelines, what margin of wins wouldn't be satisfactory initially, etc)

I don't think if you suddenly gave every club in the LOI 100k-150k extra the gap would close. It would just cause current players wages to rise which isn't a bad thing but it doesn't increase the player pool instantly which is what you'd need to happen in that scenario.

And you can talk about extra money but unless there's money in the division below its useless because you'll just end up with the same 4/5 teams yo-yoing up and down.

Eh I haven't made any arguments against an increased league? I've just pointed out that the how is just as important and the what in this conversation. I don't know how Rovers would feel about an increased league and its probably not as simple as saying an organisation is for or against something so complex with so many potential pros and cons.

You can't just go are you for or against an expanded league because there's far too many variables to give a yes or no answer.

I know it was a document, proposal was a throw away term just because it sounds better and is more intuitive than document I think.

[EatYerGreens]

As an aside to this debate - can anyone explain the difference between the various leagues in Diublin ? Leinster Senior, Leinster Junior, Alliance League, Athletic Union League, League of Gentlemen. How do they all sit relative to each other? It all seems really weird to me.

[pineapple stu]

I don't think if you suddenly gave every club in the LOI 100k-150k extra the gap would close. It would just cause current players wages to rise which isn't a bad thing but it doesn't increase the player pool instantly which is what you'd need to happen in that scenario.
I don't necessarily agree with that. I think player drain is an issue for the LoI - it's why we've one of the youngest leagues in the world (even if UCD skew that somewhat) - so being able to retain players would naturally strengthen it.

[EatYerGreens]

I don't necessarily agree with that. I think player drain is an issue for the LoI - it's why we've one of the youngest leagues in the world (even if UCD skew that somewhat) - so being able to retain players would naturally strengthen it.

I'd agree with this. There are Irish players playing in some really random leagues and levels around Europe who could do a job for an LOI club at home. But they've clearly moved to a lower standard for the money (and who could fault them for that).

[D24Saint]

As an aside to this debate - can anyone explain the difference between the various leagues in Diublin ? Leinster Senior, Leinster Junior, Alliance League, Athletic Union League, League of Gentlemen. How do they all sit relative to each other? It all seems really weird to me.

Little kingdoms for the blazers. The Leinster senior is the most recognised and best standard. The top tier of the LSL is a similar standard to the first division of LOI from the games I’ve witnessed.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

I don't necessarily agree with that. I think player drain is an issue for the LoI - it's why we've one of the youngest leagues in the world (even if UCD skew that somewhat) - so being able to retain players would naturally strengthen it.

As you've rightly said 100k extra to the top clubs wouldn't make as much of a difference to them (it would just go towards cancelling out the European money and transfer money they lost out on under the document) as to the lower down clubs but they're where the drain is from. Sure just look at Rovers last season they lose Clarke so go get Farrugia from UCD that's how LOI works and and extra 100k isn't going to allow these lower down clubs to suddenly go full time so that would continue to happen because as I've said the top clubs wages wouldn't increase enough to keep players anyway, it wouldn't allow the lower clubs to go full time, so all it would do wage wise is slightly increase the wages of those players at clubs that are 8/9th in the Premier division down which wouldn't lead to better retention.

[pineapple stu]

Think that's a bit simplistic though.

The number of players the league can afford to adequately pay has reduced a lot. That's an issue in terms of its strength - to be losing players for whom it's just not worthwhile.

Take the UCD team in Europe five years ago (for no other reason than that I know the numbers; not pretending to speak for the players' circumstances here). 18 played in those games. 4 are still playing LoI now - Watts, Benson, O'Neill and Jack Watson with Bray. Every other player has left the league afaik. Some weren't good enough of course - that'll always happen - but I think that's a huge drain in just five years from a half-decent squad. But that's still a lot of players for the league to lose. Would none of them strengthen a squad now? Would none of them be interested if pay were increased? Unlikely I think. I don't think that's an anomaly either.

(BTW, top clubs wouldn't have been getting €100k extra - probably twice that. You're right that it wouldn't make as much of a difference to them as €100k would to the smaller clubs, but that's kind of the point in terms of making the lower section more competitive. However, if an overall improved setup pushes the top clubs to go through a round more in Europe, then that's their payback. All in theory, of course)

[Martinho II]

I normally am very good at giving out but this is one of the best threads I have read in a long while and well done to all concerned.

For Co Leitrim I used to work in Carrick on Shannon and they had a team called Carrick Town who play in Sligo/Leitrim League.
For Co Roscommon you have the likes of Boyle Celtic and Roscommon Town.
For Cavan you have Cavan Town FC.


Had forgotten all about Bangor FC being in third tier as that was Roddy Collins debut as mgr wasnt it?

Didnt realise that Cork City had extended their boundary. How far out has it extended to now?

[Nesta99]

In brief response - ANYWHERE could host a new LOI side. But nowhere wants to. That's why we're 2-3 clubs down at the moment.

35 years ago the LOI expanded by taking in 6 new clubs. 18 years ago we had 2 clubs in just Mullingar alone fighting to join the LOI, and both lost out to Kildare, 9 years ago we had the early stage of a pyramid system, with clubs able to enter the LOI form the level below. Fast forward to now, and we can't get a single team anywhere genuinely interested in joining. Not one. Hence we've been running 2 teams short for the last few years, and 3 short effectively this season.

You can play fantasy club-creation all day long if you want. But it is utterly pointless, as no club anywhere wants to join our league currently. That's the start and end of it I'm afraid. Until the underlying issues which make taking the step up to LOI unattractive are tackled, this is all just moot and a bit silly IMO.

P.S. You know you've really lost the plot when you're proposing an LOI team for 'East Leitrim'. Firstly - There isn't really any East Leitrim though. It's more of a north and south kind of county. And secondly - I think there's almost as many people living in my street as there are in East Leitrim :D
P.P.S. If you think foot.ie/the LOI is tribal, wait until you meet the nordy supporters !

I think I pretty much covered what you say though. It's a 'throw it out there' list of possibilities, not exhaustive. I referred to the well worn list of issues that need sorting before any clubs, new or old, can be approached and specifically mentioned financial gain rather than pushing costs/debt. Fantasy club creation, ideal world, whatever but if you cant speculate, discuss thoughts or ideas, and importantly dream as a football fan there there is a part of being a football fan thats missing. Isnt football about trying to live the dream and not everyone gets that chance but when it does happen or something close then the years of anguish and disappointment disappear for a short while but makes it all worth it. I questioned Leitrim's very exitance ;p But I was thinking *east *west i meant of Cavan or having closer ties to Cavan than there is between north and south parts of the county. There are *cough* a good few North Leitrim that would be Sligo Rovers fans if in to LoI, all 7 of them.

You are spot on on the expansion of the league when the 1st Division was introduced, that Derry were joining created an exceptional buzz that time as you probably know well and Derry fans often outnumbering home fans on their travels. There was a definite decline but I'd be reasonably sure that the trajectory of decline follows the increasingly questionable behaviour and LoI maligning policies of the then CEO. Again we know what the issues were then and now and its about turning that around, building trust across all of Irsh football, making the lackys see that post JD league football is a differeent place to be so change or ship out, hopefully people being properly held accountable for the state of the organisation (there I am dreaming again but call me out on this one and I might agree). But ultimately making sure the step up to senior level is a benefit to a club and not a burden. I dont think any of this is impossible, for now we can hope. Signs are encouraging and improving all the time already under new direction. LoI has been shown to be sitting in the positive psyche of the public and the FAI are in the dirt. There is a very obvious mutual need for these 2 pillars of the game to work together and this symbiotic need has been acknowledged within the FAI now but its still early and the new participation agreement will say a lot more than jusgt what is written in it!

As for being tribal on here, well it was tongue in cheek as there was a lot of good discussion and interesting points and counter points made. I am from Dundalk which is juuussstt close enough to have some insight in to the different tribes in the North and I.L. If there was a AIL tomorrow it wouldnt be my first visit to I.L. grounds, from college in Coleraine to curious visits to Shamrock Park via games in Belfast and on one occasion a tour in to the inner sanctum (excuse the religious terminology considering) of Windsor Park and Linfield FC thanks to the joint schoolboys football initiative between the two clubs back then. Long before Setanta Cups or UtU Cup, Dundalk played friendlies a number of times against Linfield preseason among others. To add to that, during some pretty rough years in the North, Dundalk fans travelled up to se the Dundalk Hawk in action - as he was playing for Linfield there wasnt any fuss made either way.

I lost the plot at least 6 or 7 weeks ago and maybe years before that ;)

[passinginterest]

This. A million times this.

A properly functioning FAI would grab football by the balls in this country and run Leinster, Ulster, Connacht and Munster senior leagues as regional first divisions. Or at least First Division North/West, First Division South, and First Division East.

But there's too many people in the FAI with a vested interest and prefer their own clubs to be big fish in small ponds.

That's exactly it. If the new FAI is to be effective the executive should have to power to make these sweeping changes, they hold all the power in terms of the finances and they can refuse to affiliate leagues that don't comply. If the structure still gives the blazers from the individual local leagues the power to veto change and development, it will never really matter who the figure head is.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Think that's a bit simplistic though.

The number of players the league can afford to adequately pay has reduced a lot. That's an issue in terms of its strength - to be losing players for whom it's just not worthwhile.

Take the UCD team in Europe five years ago (for no other reason than that I know the numbers; not pretending to speak for the players' circumstances here). 18 played in those games. 4 are still playing LoI now - Watts, Benson, O'Neill and Jack Watson with Bray. Every other player has left the league afaik. Some weren't good enough of course - that'll always happen - but I think that's a huge drain in just five years from a half-decent squad. But that's still a lot of players for the league to lose. Would none of them strengthen a squad now? Would none of them be interested if pay were increased? Unlikely I think. I don't think that's an anomaly either.

(BTW, top clubs wouldn't have been getting €100k extra - probably twice that. You're right that it wouldn't make as much of a difference to them as €100k would to the smaller clubs, but that's kind of the point in terms of making the lower section more competitive. However, if an overall improved setup pushes the top clubs to go through a round more in Europe, then that's their payback. All in theory, of course)

It has yeah but it'd take a lot more money to change that.

Players that leave for work tend to leave because of time constraints so any pay rise would have to either be enough for them to drop the other job or downgrade it significantly or make them put up with the hassle and I cant see roughly 4k per player doing any of those things (100k / 25 players).

Corbet and Doyle too so 6/18 with Swan and Kounagun having just left , money wasn't the issue with Swan I dont think, maybe Kounagun but its debatable for him. 6/18 for what was a midtable first division team isn't bad going at all. In all fairness to first division players too we're not targeting them for retention, they'll make the player pool bigger but not better, it's players leaving premier division teams we want to target and for most of them the wages wouldn't rise to significantly under this document so they probably would move on anyway.

The document mentioned 200k prize money for league winners I believe which is less than a 100k increase.

Simply giving the lower clubs more money doesn't equal an improvement in standard, to do that you have to retain more of the quality players at the top clubs so that the lower clubs can retain their quality players while also giving them the ability to do so.

What happens in the LOI though when you throw money at clubs though is they get players in on inflated wages on 1 year deals which achieves nothing with regards to improving the leagues standard. So the document would of had to address how to combat that which it didn't really and instantly promoting 4 teams and straight into a system with relegation back down to amateur leagues is a recipe for disaster with regards to that imo

[pineapple stu]

Corbet is gone; playing GAA now. Doyle I think left Longford last year? Not 100% sure; could be wrong. Certainly hasn't played LoI since June last year anyway.

UCD weren't a mid-table First Division team that year either; probably would have won it had we not been in Europe. Injures and fatigue killed the team on the run-in, when we had been on a 17-match unbeaten run.

Overall, I don't think there's any reasons for considering that 4/5 out of 18 is remotely encouraging a retention rate. We know there's a problem with player retention in the LoI because the average age is so young. And would players like Langtry, Leahy, Swan, etc, strengthen UCD now? Of course they would.

And of course there's other reasons why players would drop out of the league - but are you telling me that pay isn't one? Or that it isn't a major one? And that's before you look at bringing in players back from England, or even foreign imports (who in fairness are generally ****e I think)

Of course you want to retain the top players too - but giving Rovers extra money is hardly likely to hinder that. (The document mentioned other cost savings such as getting rid of affiliation fees and FAI share of cup gate receipts btw - so not just prize money)

I'm not saying this is all a panacea btw. But it would help improve things. That's all you can really do.

[nigel-harps1954]

If extra money were pumped into each club, there would have to be guarantees as to where that money is spent.


At Harps, for instance, if our stadium limbo continues even further with this inevitable recession, €100k-€200k could do an awful lot to Finn Park. A decent terrace concreted into the closed river end, a second half-decent toilet block, finally finish the town end terrace which was supposed to have a roof and seats initially, or maybe a chance to do some repair work to the (already ready to fall) shed.

If each club were given money to improve infrastructure, that'd go a long way to solving some of the issues around the league.

Players wages aren't the be all and end all of improving the league.

In saying that, I agree with Pineapple Stu on his point in regards player retention. Many lads leave our league for Conference in England, random continental leagues, America, Australia, New Zealand, and many other countless opportunities. If they were getting a decent full time wage here, and a 52 week contract for the year, I have no doubt many of these would stay home. You'll still get lads who want to step up to Championship or Scottish Premier or whatever they want, we'll not compete with that, but in the long term, a move to League One or League Two should be seen as a poor career choice rather than a big step up.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Corbet is gone; playing GAA now. Doyle I think left Longford last year? Not 100% sure; could be wrong. Certainly hasn't played LoI since June last year anyway.

UCD weren't a mid-table First Division team that year either; probably would have won it had we not been in Europe. Injures and fatigue killed the team on the run-in, when we had been on a 17-match unbeaten run.

Overall, I don't think there's any reasons for considering that 4/5 out of 18 is remotely encouraging a retention rate. We know there's a problem with player retention in the LoI because the average age is so young. And would players like Langtry, Leahy, Swan, etc, strengthen UCD now? Of course they would.

And of course there's other reasons why players would drop out of the league - but are you telling me that pay isn't one? Or that it isn't a major one? And that's before you look at bringing in players back from England, or even foreign imports (who in fairness are generally ****e I think)

Of course you want to retain the top players too - but giving Rovers extra money is hardly likely to hinder that. (The document mentioned other cost savings such as getting rid of affiliation fees and FAI share of cup gate receipts btw - so not just prize money)

I'm not saying this is all a panacea btw. But it would help improve things. That's all you can really do.

Didn't realise Corbet had left. But there's a lot of good quality keepers around the league right now that would explain that more so than wages.

3rd in an 8 team division is mid table imo. Think collie o'neill said as much on a podcast recently.

4/5 out of 18 isn't bad because it's a university team so there are to one's of other factors at play.

Im not saying pay isn't one but the bump in pay that we'd see wouldn't be sufficient I don't think.

You're giving Rovers extra money which won't hurt no, but you're also taking money from the big clubs so the net gain they'd see from the documents proposals would be minimal if at all.

It would help in some ways but if you just suddenly told the 4 (as it was then) clubs to make the jump and threw 100k at them I can't see their standard rising enough to avoid serious hidings from the bigger clubs very quickly if at all and the damage that would do to the leagues rep wouldn't be ideal at all.

Making the league bigger isn't a bad idea is my point but it would need to be managed properly, which is the issue I don't think the document addressed.

[Nesta99]

If extra money were pumped into each club, there would have to be guarantees as to where that money is spent.


At Harps, for instance, if our stadium limbo continues even further with this inevitable recession, €100k-€200k could do an awful lot to Finn Park. A decent terrace concreted into the closed river end, a second half-decent toilet block, finally finish the town end terrace which was supposed to have a roof and seats initially, or maybe a chance to do some repair work to the (already ready to fall) shed.

If each club were given money to improve infrastructure, that'd go a long way to solving some of the issues around the league.

Players wages aren't the be all and end all of improving the league.

In saying that, I agree with Pineapple Stu on his point in regards player retention. Many lads leave our league for Conference in England, random continental leagues, America, Australia, New Zealand, and many other countless opportunities. If they were getting a decent full time wage here, and a 52 week contract for the year, I have no doubt many of these would stay home. You'll still get lads who want to step up to Championship or Scottish Premier or whatever they want, we'll not compete with that, but in the long term, a move to League One or League Two should be seen as a poor career choice rather than a big step up.

I agree with this in what it could be trying to achieve with infrastructure. But I'm not sure you could give 'prizemoney' and then have a club be told what they can spend it on. Licencing is the way to achieve ground improvements, as it would compel a club to invest in a ground, meet some minimum requirement and could enforce a player wage % of income type limit also if need be (ye dont want to drive away investors either though - in the spirit of not being mé féiners). I dont think a situation where 'additional' prizemoney is awarded but with strings attached on what it can be spent on. I'm not saying this as a Dundalk fan knowing what the priority of the owners is as I want to see investment in Oriel as much as any club's fan that has to tolerate the likes of the away section. Calling any additional funds that could go to clubs (spectator facility) grants would also be better. It's semantics I know but I think how these things are presented is important especially when trying to get around the tendency to focus investment on a playing squad.

If some sort of redistribution of European earnings were to occur for example, and there was some requirement for that additional money to only be spent on ground improveent, there'd be some irony if Dundalk had contributed to the redistribution pot as things are with Oriel!

[nigel-harps1954]

Well yeah, I should probably have been a bit more clear in that regard. Rather than simply adding 100k in prize money, a club infrastructure fund should be distributed.

Now obviously not all clubs own their stadia, so such funds could be used to develop their training grounds or academy structures.

Maybe a club could then progress to administrative funding instead of infrastructural, where after a year or two have already done ground improvements and built a training base. This 100k can be used to fund two or three administrative staff for a year or two to further improve the qualities within the club structures.

[Nesta99]

Ok I may sound like Im just being awkward here, but if you consider Rovers, Cork Derry as examples of where grounds are already up to standard and have in the main been funded by the taxpayer (whether owned or not), to jump to providing admin staff or other things with funding is a win win for those clubs and arguably and inadvertant financial advantage to clubs with existing infrastructure already, allocated by a governing body. Maybe available money should allocated on need, to get all to a certain minimum before advancing to admin, academies and the like, together. If the 'admin' money was being used to fund Bohs like community based initiatives, i'd see that as different even if this has an indirect financial benefit to clubs via increased goodwill and hence attendances.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Ok I may sound like Im just being awkward here, but if you consider Rovers, Cork Derry as examples of where grounds are already up to standard and have in the main been funded by the taxpayer (whether owned or not), to jump to providing admin staff or other things with funding is a win win for those clubs and arguably and inadvertant financial advantage to clubs with existing infrastructure already, allocated by a governing body. Maybe available money should allocated on need, to get all to a certain minimum before advancing to admin, academies and the like, together. If the 'admin' money was being used to fund Bohs like community based initiatives, i'd see that as different even if this has an indirect financial benefit to clubs via increased goodwill and hence attendances.

I can see where you're coming from but if you do that you're essentially punishing clubs for putting themselves in a good position. These clubs do also have facilities costs still and some will have academy/training facilities too.

You've to remember too if you say only people that own their ground can get the money then not only do you get into technicalities you've cases where the likes of bohs still have costs for the ground. And if you say you can't have it if you're at a certain standard then clubs like Sligo are seriously hard done by.

I get what you're saying but it's really hard to implement that fairly