Where might new clubs come from?

[pineapple stu]

Newbridge Town effectively were Kildare County, so they hardly want to come back surely?

[disgruntled]

Newbridge Town effectively were Kildare County, so they hardly want to come back surely?

Haven't Newbridge Town been around for a long time ?
It says in the press release that this is their 50th anniversary year.
"Mick takes over the first team affairs with immediate affect and will lead our clubs first team into our 50th anniversary year in 2018/19 in the Leinster Senior League Senior Division."

[pineapple stu]

They have, yeah, but I think Kildare County emerged from them - they certainly played in Newbridge's ground, and there may have been some Newbridge officials involved.

I don't know why Newbridge didn't take the step up themselves - it may have been that Kildare County was a more inclusive name - but I would imagine the fact it was Kildare County who joined the league back in 2002 (?) means Newbridge have no aspirations to jump up themselves.

[eitoof]

Is Jim Rhatigan still alive?

[Martinho II]

what happened to Paul Perth newbridges previous mgr?

[Charlie Darwin]

what happened to Paul Perth newbridges previous mgr?
He quit, work reasons I assume.

[JC_GUFC]

I don't know why Newbridge didn't take the step up themselves - it may have been that Kildare County was a more inclusive name - but I would imagine the fact it was Kildare County who joined the league back in 2002 (?) means Newbridge have no aspirations to jump up themselves.

I think it was that they wanted to preserve their place in the Leinster Senior League if things didn't work out in League of Ireland.

Tralee Dynamos got screwed over by the Kerry League after they joined the A-Championship for a few years and had to rejoin about 4 divisions down. They made it back up to the Premier but have been relegated this season.

There definitely would be potential for a Kerry club but whether people would travel from Killarney to Tralee to support a Kerry team playing LoI out of Mounthawk Park is doubtful, though Tralee is a pretty big town easily accessible from all areas of North Kerry.

[pineapple stu]

That could well have been it actually.

All the more reason to get a proper pyramid system in place, if a fear of multiple relegations like that is going to hold some clubs back.

The current system is utterly unfit for purpose.

[4tothefloor]

As they are mentioned, in 1984, a year before Newcastle West joined LOI in '85 Newcastle Rovers were formed and the two clubs have been big Desmond League rivals since NC West dropped out of LOI and back into DL in 1990. They amalgamated underage last year, a new club called Newcastle West Town FC came into being. They already have an U15 FAI Cup South West win in their first year, the first DL club to win a regional competition. This coming DL season, the clubs will fully amalgamate and the town will put one junior side out. It's very possible this club will have a lot of their own way at DL level.

The town now has a population of around 6,600. The urban area has passed well beyond the old town boundaries which are due for redefinition.

The old LOI ground is a lot more developed than it was in the LOI days, a much better facility although obviously probably still short of national league current standards.

Also current LOI players Liam McCartan (Wexford Youths) Killian Brouder (Limerick FC) Gary Shanahan (Galway) are all ex NCW AFC players. In addition to this, Paudie O'Connor (Leeds Utd via Limerick FC) Anthony Forde (Rotherham United) & John McGrath (ex Villa / Doncaster / Burton and Ireland U21s) are all ex DL players from very nearby.

So,here you have a club founded in 1948 originally with good tradition and real presence in the area, an area which produces players of a capable standard clearly, and who also have previous in the LOI. You also have a good underage set up and a forward thinking amalgamation for the good of the game in the town as they combine their facilities, infrastructure and efforts.


Is the potential here for a LOI Div 1 club ? Absolutely, yes in my opinion.

What do you not have ? A staged pathway to that goal, or the remotest motivation for those at the club to put the club under that financial pressure just to have the status of 'LOI'

What do you also not have ? A governing body who will address the two above issues.

Newcastle West AFC has always been a very poorly supported club. The won all around them in the DL in the 90's and 00's but there wouldn't be 10 people at their games - I could tell you to a man who each person was too. Same at underage level - often played against them in Ballygowan Park and they wouldn't have one supporter there. A soulless club really driven by 3/4 dedicated club men. Newcastlewest Rovers was always the 'drinking club', where they had the craic as opposed to AFC who were all about winning. Rovers got their act together at underage level though and became the main schoolboy club. That then eventually fed in to their junior teams. Rovers have comfortably overtaken AFC now at all levels, plus their facilities are a level above too. AFC as a club has been dying a death for years, underage became a farce and the junior side got relegated last season. The amalgamation was inevitable really. But would Newcastle West Town now be capable of sustaining LOI? Not a hope. The club has never been well supported, not in my lifetime anyway, and I watched them in the LOI in Ballygowan Park too.


Did Denis Behan come through NCW? I know he's from Abbeyfeale but I had always associated him with NCW for some reason. Either way he's another indicator of decent talent in the NCW hinterland.
Behan came through Abbeyfeale Utd. Paudie O'Connor came through Kilcornan & Breska Rovers. Anthony Forde came through Ballingarry AFC & John McGrath came through Glantine FC.


Limerick is a big enough county population wise with 90,000 or so NOT living in the City environs so there is enough room for supporting two LOI clubs in one county in theory. Behan was a very decent striker, that goal in the Brandywell for Cork from 30-40 yards out. He just sort of disappeared though it seems. I lived in Abbeyfeale as a kid and got to see him play some local matches when we were teenagers. He was bigger stronger and faster than every other kid so people knew he would do well one day. The South West could and should have an LOI team whether it's Tralee or Newcastlewest. North Kerry is all about hurling, and Kerry aren't world beaters in that regard, while West Limerick is all about Gaelic Football, and Limerick are in Division 4 i think.. A good opportunity in the future for a soccer club to become successful perhaps.
No chance could Limerick sustain two teams IMO. I live and work between Newcastle West and Limerick. Most of the DL grassroots football lads from West Limerick are already regularly going to Limerick FC games. Based on DL rivalries, NCW would not as a club garner enough support from other DL clubs on a regular basis. There's just no way that lads from Abbeyfeale, Broadford, Rathkeale etc would go supporting NCW in the LOI and the town alone is not big enough to sustain it.

West Limerick is hurling country btw, aside from about 4 clubs. It may have some of the counties bigger and better gaelic football clubs, but the standard is $hite and the proof is in the pudding at county level where they just don't get the crowds. Whereas you'll see the whole of West Limerick out in force to support the hurlers, and of course every Tom, Dick and Paddy is a Munster rugby supporter even though 95% of them wouldn't know a rugby ball if it hit them square on the face.


Ennis - would be considered Limerick's catchment area, can never see that happening. Any club that joins would have to have a town centre ground. If lads can't go to the pub or for a bite to eat before or after the game, you can forget about it.

[Finlay Harp]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52375726

[D24Saint]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52375726

Amazing I don’t remember them being that short lived.

[oriel]

I was just about to post this, but didn't know where to - then saw it uploaded !

Agreed on the 3 seasons, if I had guessed I would have gone for 5, good article, almost everything about their existence and achievments was just bizzare.

They had some decent players though, played some good football, tiny fanbase however the 'another club in Dublin' thing didn't help them.

[wonder88]

The Fingal article was an interesting read. One of their games in Terryland I would consider as one of the best style of soccer I have seen from a league of Ireland team. Have to check for the programme sometime.
"Fingal is located 35 miles north of Dublin" highlights one of the fundamental problems LoI clubs face; the lack of a strong local connection/link. More time may have help but looking at the project from afar it seems to have been top down rather than grassroots up, like Bohemians are in recent times.
I suppose the county manager at the time wasn't the HSE guy by any chance?

[Bunny Kelly]

While we always teetering I always wondered would Kilkenny survived if FAI weren’t trying drive on the moneybags Fingal in that period

[Martinho II]

While we always teetering I always wondered would Kilkenny survived if FAI weren’t trying drive on the moneybags Fingal in that period

Very good point Bunny. Would love to see Kilkenny back in loi but doubt somehow. SF had too much going their own way when they started up which was unnatural. No wonder they went bust. They were the Irish version of Gretna!

[El-Pietro]

Yet another example of a failed Dublin club, why does Dublin struggle to keep clubs alive?

This gets thrown at Cork all the time but there have been far more failed Dublin clubs than Cork clubs. In total I count 26 different Dublin teams compared to 9 Cork Clubs (plus Cobh) It happens in Galway, Limerick and Waterford too. Waterford have two very clear changes in 1980 and 2017 then seem to get forgotten about for some reason. Its not about the cities, its the nature of the league. For decades there was no second division so whenever a club went bankrupt it could just change the name and sign up again. Even the clubs who have survived as a single entity have has multiple holding companies.

[D24Saint]

Yet another example of a failed Dublin club, why does Dublin struggle to keep clubs alive?

This gets thrown at Cork all the time but there have been far more failed Dublin clubs than Cork clubs. In total I count 26 different Dublin teams compared to 9 Cork Clubs (plus Cobh) It happens in Galway, Limerick and Waterford too. Waterford have two very clear changes in 1980 and 2017 then seem to get forgotten about for some reason. Its not about the cities, its the nature of the league. For decades there was no second division so whenever a club went bankrupt it could just change the name and sign up again. Even the clubs who have survived as a single entity have has multiple holding companies.

A good few of them are gone since the 1920's - 30's and Home Farm in their various guises make up three or four of that number.

[wonder88]

I used to be of the opinion that there was too many clubs in Dublin, now I am not so sure. A lot depends on what type of club there is. The "local" is still an important factor in Irish life, clubs need an identity and also need a close by rival to compete against. Cluster of clubs rather than a geographical spread is whats required. For a city of its size Cork needs a 2nd team, along with Cobh. A derby game would still mean something even if the clubs are not at the top of the table.
Kilkenny would fit in the middle between Waterford and Wexford. It would also give an extra outlet to players in that area.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Yet another example of a failed Dublin club, why does Dublin struggle to keep clubs alive?

This gets thrown at Cork all the time but there have been far more failed Dublin clubs than Cork clubs. In total I count 26 different Dublin teams compared to 9 Cork Clubs (plus Cobh) It happens in Galway, Limerick and Waterford too. Waterford have two very clear changes in 1980 and 2017 then seem to get forgotten about for some reason. Its not about the cities, its the nature of the league. For decades there was no second division so whenever a club went bankrupt it could just change the name and sign up again. Even the clubs who have survived as a single entity have has multiple holding companies.

As said before a lot of the Dublin clubs are from the leagues early days when it wouldn't have been too inaccurate to just call it the top division of the Leinster Senior League.

Since then that I can think of you have Drumcondra, Dublin City, Home Farm, St Francis, St James Gate, Sporting Fingal and Transport of who I think all but Sporting Fingal and Dublin City are still going just not at LOI level.

Dublin doesn't struggle any more than any other place in the country to keep clubs alive.

A pattern that I do sort of see is that completely new entities struggle a lot more than clubs progressing on from a lower level which seems an obvious thing to say but people creating clubs don't seem to have realised it for some reason.

[David BOHie]

A Fingal club actually based in Fingal and given time would have gotten huge support eventually. A move to Swords or Lusk or whatever was on the cards for them would have been massive in terms of creating a community fanbase. Swords, Malahide, Donabate, Lusk, Skerries etc must have a population of over 100k

[El-Pietro]

As said before a lot of the Dublin clubs are from the leagues early days when it wouldn't have been too inaccurate to just call it the top division of the Leinster Senior League.

Since then that I can think of you have Drumcondra, Dublin City, Home Farm, St Francis, St James Gate, Sporting Fingal and Transport of who I think all but Sporting Fingal and Dublin City are still going just not at LOI level.

Dublin doesn't struggle any more than any other place in the country to keep clubs alive.

A pattern that I do sort of see is that completely new entities struggle a lot more than clubs progressing on from a lower level which seems an obvious thing to say but people creating clubs don't seem to have realised it for some reason.

This is my point. No where is struggling more than other areas, its the nature of the league and the lack of a pyramid that leads to this happening. As always the outliers are the towns like Sligo that can manage to keep teams going no matter what rather than the places that have lost teams.

[nigel-harps1954]

Clubs starting from the bottom, building themselves up in the community first, before chasing silverware, is the blueprint to success.

Clubs like Sporting Fingal were only a vanity project, regardless of any newspaper articles claiming otherwise. Fast tracked success through wreckless spending without ever building up a support base, basing themselves a five minute drive from Tolka Park, it was always going to fail spectacularly.

Cabinteely are doing things the right way, to a degree, but would really benefit from getting their own grounds up to scratch rather than continuing out of a rugby ground where they'll never really get much support. A Wexford style ground would help them get up and running in that regard. They've shown the appetite is there though, couple hundred going to see them regularly, and have shown they can get crowds of 1,000+ at times. I'd like to see them succeed.

All of this is pie in the sky talk though regarding new clubs. Same discussions had every few months, same ideas and same places given as suggestions.

Until the FAI properly back the league, until the government get behind the league, until we get proper sponsorship and funding, we're going to continue down the same road. There's no appetite for anyone to step into a basket case of a league.

[EatYerGreens]

Yet another example of a failed Dublin club, why does Dublin struggle to keep clubs alive?

This gets thrown at Cork all the time but there have been far more failed Dublin clubs than Cork clubs. In total I count 26 different Dublin teams compared to 9 Cork Clubs (plus Cobh) It happens in Galway, Limerick and Waterford too. Waterford have two very clear changes in 1980 and 2017 then seem to get forgotten about for some reason. Its not about the cities, its the nature of the league. For decades there was no second division so whenever a club went bankrupt it could just change the name and sign up again. Even the clubs who have survived as a single entity have has multiple holding companies.

I think the key difference is that Dublin has managed to keep its main clubs going consistently - Bohs, Shels, Rovers and Pats. Even when struggling without a ground of their own (Shels and Rovers).

Cork found it difficult at various times to sustain even just one club in the city.

[EatYerGreens]

Clubs starting from the bottom, building themselves up in the community first, before chasing silverware, is the blueprint to success.

Clubs like Sporting Fingal were only a vanity project, regardless of any newspaper articles claiming otherwise. Fast tracked success through wreckless spending without ever building up a support base, basing themselves a five minute drive from Tolka Park, it was always going to fail spectacularly.

Cabinteely are doing things the right way, to a degree, but would really benefit from getting their own grounds up to scratch rather than continuing out of a rugby ground where they'll never really get much support. A Wexford style ground would help them get up and running in that regard. They've shown the appetite is there though, couple hundred going to see them regularly, and have shown they can get crowds of 1,000+ at times. I'd like to see them succeed.

All of this is pie in the sky talk though regarding new clubs. Same discussions had every few months, same ideas and same places given as suggestions.

Until the FAI properly back the league, until the government get behind the league, until we get proper sponsorship and funding, we're going to continue down the same road. There's no appetite for anyone to step into a basket case of a league.

This is the key point.

Joining the League of Ireland is financial suicide. And it's likely to put in jeopardy the existing/lower level activities of any club that joins. It's why no-one wants to. Don't forget that our league was supposed to have 22 teams but has ended up with 20 by default not design. 19 if you accept that Rovers B is just a place-holding exercise.

Until joining the LOI is no longer a financial risk, no established club will do it - as they've too much to lose. That leaves us prone instead to vanity projects like Dublin City and Sporting Fingal, or pointless additions like B Teams, to make up the numbers.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Dublin has roughly 28% of Ireland's population, and, not counting Shams B, 32% of LOI clubs, so it's not all that uneven (and yes, I know there are two more clubs only a short distance away, but they aren't Dublin clubs).

It would be nice if cities like Cork, Limerick and Galway could sustain more than one club, but I think Galway over the last decade shows we're a while away from such things.

[pineapple stu]

Joining the League of Ireland is financial suicide. And it's likely to put in jeopardy the existing/lower level activities of any club that joins. It's why no-one wants to.
Yup. Only Bray and Cabinteely of the clubs to have joined the league since the First Division was added haven't folded in the meantime (Derry City, Cobh, Newcastle, Monaghan, Kilkenny, St James' Gate, St Francis, Dublin City, Kildare County, Wexford Youths, Sporting Fingal, Salthill Devon and Mervue United all folded or left; Derry, Cobh and Wexford at least came back for more). That's hardly a ringing endorsement.

And now we're running out of people to join (Tralee had to leave the Kerry League to join the A Championship, and then had to re-enter the bottom division of the Kerry League when the A Championship folded, which is idiotic), so the league has shrunk from 22 to (effectively) 19 clubs in the past decade. Coronavirus will probably take another couple.

It's why I'd strongly favour a 16-team Premier and the provincial leagues acting as regionalised First Divisions. Give stable, interested, currently non-league clubs (if there are any!) every incentive to step up. I know Dundalk/Rovers would give out about it, and I know the regional leagues would complain too, but it's not about them ultimately.

[EatYerGreens]

Dublin has roughly 28% of Ireland's population, and, not counting Shams B, 32% of LOI clubs, so it's not all that uneven (and yes, I know there are two more clubs only a short distance away, but they aren't Dublin clubs).

It would be nice if cities like Cork, Limerick and Galway could sustain more than one club, but I think Galway over the last decade shows we're a while away from such things.

More importantly - Football is an urban sport. So it's no surprise that the Republic's biggest urban area contains so many of its teams. Until the State gets genuinely serious about decentralisation and regional growth, I can't see that changing much.

There is neither sense nor benefit in Galway or Limerick having more than one club IMO. They're both essentially just small towns in the grand scheme of things. Cork could maybe accommodate two as it continues to grow - but what would be the point in two teams with small fan bases rather than one with the numbers essentially combined ? If major cities like Leeds and Newcastle can get on with historically having just one main club, I think Ireland's regional cities will survive that way too.

[nigel-harps1954]

It's why I'd strongly favour a 16-team Premier and the provincial leagues acting as regionalised First Divisions. Give stable, interested, currently non-league clubs (if there are any!) every incentive to step up. I know Dundalk/Rovers would give out about it, and I know the regional leagues would complain too, but it's not about them ultimately.

This. A million times this.

A properly functioning FAI would grab football by the balls in this country and run Leinster, Ulster, Connacht and Munster senior leagues as regional first divisions. Or at least First Division North/West, First Division South, and First Division East.

But there's too many people in the FAI with a vested interest and prefer their own clubs to be big fish in small ponds.

[Charlie Darwin]

I was just about to post this, but didn't know where to - then saw it uploaded !

Agreed on the 3 seasons, if I had guessed I would have gone for 5, good article, almost everything about their existence and achievments was just bizzare.

They had some decent players though, played some good football, tiny fanbase however the 'another club in Dublin' thing didn't help them.
It's mad to think the direct beneficiaries of their demise were Pats. I know they done well under Mahon but they'd never have won the league and broke their cup hoodoo without Bucko coming back with Ger O'Brien.

[Charlie Darwin]

Yet another example of a failed Dublin club, why does Dublin struggle to keep clubs alive?

This gets thrown at Cork all the time but there have been far more failed Dublin clubs than Cork clubs. In total I count 26 different Dublin teams compared to 9 Cork Clubs (plus Cobh)
I get your point but I understand why people say that about Cork. The one team in Cork has failed a few times (I know you've had more than one club at times too), whereas a lot of those teams in Dublin were junior clubs that just stepped up to make the numbers up. You can't really compare Jacobs or Olympia to the one team that represents a city. But, yeah, I do think it suits people sometimes to talk about the failed clubs from Cork like it's some type of local disease.

[Charlie Darwin]

A Fingal club actually based in Fingal and given time would have gotten huge support eventually. A move to Swords or Lusk or whatever was on the cards for them would have been massive in terms of creating a community fanbase. Swords, Malahide, Donabate, Lusk, Skerries etc must have a population of over 100k
It's the same problem there is in the rest of Ireland where someone from Ballina won't support a team called Castlebar or based in Castlebar. There are a few massive clubs in Fingal like Malahide and Portmarnock (and Rush will be huge in the coming years) but good luck getting anyone from one of the towns to support a team based in the other. Maybe Lusk would be a good compromise, or Balbriggan.

[Charlie Darwin]

=Cabinteely are doing things the right way, to a degree, but would really benefit from getting their own grounds up to scratch rather than continuing out of a rugby ground where they'll never really get much support. A Wexford style ground would help them get up and running in that regard.
That's the thing. If Cabinteely had the capital to build a ground, do you really think they'd spend it on a ground and not doing a Fingal and chasing success? Maybe if the club's members had their way they would but it's a big ask. Wexford's stroke of fortune was probably that they had Wallace who wasn't interested in pumping money into chasing a dream and preferred doing what he was good at and building.

[Charlie Darwin]

Yup. Only Bray and Cabinteely of the clubs to have joined the league since the First Division was added haven't folded in the meantime (Derry City, Cobh, Newcastle, Monaghan, Kilkenny, St James' Gate, St Francis, Dublin City, Kildare County, Wexford Youths, Sporting Fingal, Salthill Devon and Mervue United all folded or left; Derry, Cobh and Wexford at least came back for more). That's hardly a ringing endorsement.

And now we're running out of people to join (Tralee had to leave the Kerry League to join the A Championship, and then had to re-enter the bottom division of the Kerry League when the A Championship folded, which is idiotic), so the league has shrunk from 22 to (effectively) 19 clubs in the past decade. Coronavirus will probably take another couple.

It's why I'd strongly favour a 16-team Premier and the provincial leagues acting as regionalised First Divisions. Give stable, interested, currently non-league clubs (if there are any!) every incentive to step up. I know Dundalk/Rovers would give out about it, and I know the regional leagues would complain too, but it's not about them ultimately.
To be fair, you could probably keep Wexford out of that list. Yes, they folded due to Wallace's personal finances, but only after they'd been built from scratch to a point where there was a sustainable club. They haven't really followed the same trajectory as the likes of Fingal or Dublin City.

[Nesta99]

Would Dundalk and Rovers really give out about it when it came to the crunch? The theory is of course that having a smaller core of 'stronger' clubs would improve the quality of games, maybe improving crowds. But tbh Id rather think that enough clubs could improve, less repeitition of fixtures (4 leagues games, good chance of a cup fixture, and maybe even reserve sides meeting in the lesser cups, throw in a replay and its ridiculous). Maybe the argument is that clubs ie those outside the current top 4 say need to strengthen first before expansion of the top division but which should/could happen first. I have no basis for why my gut feeling is that 16 teams is preferable in general and groaned when there was talk of reducing the Premier Division, wasnt even 8 clubs mooted? It isnt some hangover from starting to think we'd only ever get promoted again if the structures were changed (again) Ive always just preferred a larger division and none of this splitting leagues malarkey - that just kills off clubs that are in the bottom section but safe, which is different from midtable safety and both title and relegation teams visiting and keeping some bit of interest going. Irish sports fans are just too fickle!

[pineapple stu]

Would Dundalk and Rovers really give out about it when it came to the crunch?
They would (and did)

[Nesta99]

Well I know what their stance was, when it all comes up for review (is there a concrete new participation agreement finalised yet?) on a new company running a new league and the better and most supported structure if it came to the crunch I dont think the dummy would be spat!

[pineapple stu]

It wouldn't be spat if their self-interest was met I think. And that's always been the way with the league.

Rovers* and Dundalk were the two main clubs against the PCA document, particularly the suggested expansion of the Premier (possibly because of the suggestion of the partial redistribution of European money too). And I can understand why purely looking it from their point of view. From the bigger picture though, the First Division is a huge and unhelpful barrier to entry, and the league as a whole can't really improve with it in its current format. The league should be doing everything it can to get more clubs taking the step up to senior level. Every other country in Europe operates that way.


* - Rovers suggested that each club should be forced to buy 250 adult tickets in advance for each away game. If they sold them all, then there was no issue. If they sold, say, 50, then that would make up for Rovers subsidising the likes of Bray. That's the level of petty self-interest clubs operate on. Let's not kid ourselves about that.

[pineapple stu]

To be fair, you could probably keep Wexford out of that list. Yes, they folded due to Wallace's personal finances, but only after they'd been built from scratch to a point where there was a sustainable club. They haven't really followed the same trajectory as the likes of Fingal or Dublin City.
They're very different to the latter two alright, but I don't think any First Division club can be said to be sustainable, especially when you then say they folded because of Wallace's personal finances.

[Nesta99]

It wouldn't be spat if their self-interest was met I think. And that's always been the way with the league.

Rovers* and Dundalk were the two main clubs against the PCA document, particularly the suggested expansion of the Premier (possibly because of the suggestion of the partial redistribution of European money too). And I can understand why purely looking it from their point of view. From the bigger picture though, the First Division is a huge and unhelpful barrier to entry, and the league as a whole can't really improve with it in its current format. The league should be doing everything it can to get more clubs taking the step up to senior level. Every other country in Europe operates that way.


* - Rovers suggested that each club should be forced to buy 250 adult tickets in advance for each away game. If they sold them all, then there was no issue. If they sold, say, 50, then that would make up for Rovers subsidising the likes of Bray. That's the level of petty self-interest clubs operate on. Let's not kid ourselves about that.

I agree with this, it's pretty bad that with all things considered I am still not sure whether the league would have been better off being run by itsself or under the FAI. It's why I thought that a jointly owned company running the league was the best of both worst worlds! It's too soon to be fully confident in FAI Nua, but there are signs of change which were well scuppered by covid-19. I never really understood the justification of redistribution of prizemoney. Self interest or not I dont think any club that if currently regularly qualifying for Europe, would agree to this. It's very very FAI like and Im sure they would have liked a redistribution model all to themselves.

I agree that the 1st Divsion is a dead weight, not the clubs themselves though. I think everyone would generally agree with a structure that encourages more clubs to step up. Due to the desperate amound of failed efforts to step up, a lot more than a change in structure is needed. Regionalising would be a start though if the numbers were there.

Its a bit of an odd proposal from Rovers though Id imagine it was making a point, or just being awkward, as the suggestion of redistribution/subsidising other clubs was also a poor idea.

[pineapple stu]

Don't agree redistributing Euro finances is outright a bad idea. It works in other countries, such as Switzerland for example. The suggestion specifically was that some Euro money go to the FAI, with the idea of generating FAI buy-in into the league. The flip side, of course, was that they would be called on to put significant extra prize money in (2020 was when the FAI was debt free, don't forget...). So you're using the funds to -

> Build a stable division (clubs with a starting point of, say, €100k in prize money are inherently more stable than ones whose starting point is they're paying the FAI) - stability is a huge issue in the LoI
> Create a division that non-league clubs want to push themselves to join - I think we agree this would be good.
> Create a safety net against the tap of Euro funds being switched off - other clubs have struggled with this in recent years; Pat's and Cork to name two
> Create a stronger division overall, with the result that the top teams are pushed more domestically, which would hopefully help them in Europe
> Encourage the FAI to want to drive the league forward, because more Euro success would mean more money

Lots of benefits to be had from it.

Edit - I should add UEFA redistribute money as well in the form of the solidarity payments all leagues, including the LoI, get. It's not a new idea.

[Nesta99]

It's a bit early to know whether this observation sticks but so far so good .... maybe.

Hulsizer said he was pleased with the new FAI’s attitude towards the League of Ireland.
“At our meeting we agreed that the participation agreement was the foundation of progress and we have devised a path to get it done.
“I’ve rarely been in a meeting that was so unified and it was heartening. As much as I’d throw the FAI under the bus in two seconds flat if they deserve it, if they try to do something right they need to get the credit for it.

[Nesta99]

There is merit in redistribution I know. I should have said bad idea for the clubs that are in Europe currently. As ye know I will happily get on board with the idea if Peak6 up sticks and we need money and stability. The prospect of a widening gap financially would be a concern also but it is hard feign sincerity on this when your team happens to be in the mix. I would like to be able to say in the future, among other things, ' for the benefit of the league Dundalk needs more competition, lets share prizemoney'.

[pineapple stu]

There is merit in redistribution I know. I should have said bad idea for the clubs that are in Europe currently. As ye know I will happily get on board with the idea if Peak6 up sticks and we need money and stability. The prospect of a widening gap financially would be a concern also but it is hard feign sincerity on this when your team happens to be in the mix. I would like to be able to say in the future, among other things, ' for the benefit of the league Dundalk needs more competition, lets share prizemoney'.
Ah, well they're two different things aren't they!

Ultimately the problem in all of this is that Dundalk/Shamrock Rovers do have a say - and probably too much of a say as they're the league's golden boys at the moment - and the FAI haven't a clue what they're doing with the league.

I can't blame Dundalk or Rovers for having short-term, self-centred views of course. It's the FAI's role - or the role of whoever's running the league - to look at the bigger picture and come up with a proper strategic plan for the league.

It'd be interesting to see what'd happen Dundalk if/when they get dumped down to the Europa League, where prize money is much less. Or even the EL2. Will they start to fade the way Pat's/Cork/Sligo did? Certainly they don't have the self-sustaining academy setup Rovers do. I imagine Dundalk would suddenly be in favour of redistributed income then!

[Nesta99]

No disagreement on any of that either. I thought this was the pivitol year for Dundalk and bedding in long term with P6. Squad balance, preperation, not carrying long term injuries from previous/pre season, lessons learned from last year etc. The 3 shots at making a group stage on offer. But covid-19 had a bit of an impact. A shrewd observation is that Pats, Sligo Shels, Derry, Bohs, eg could level the playing field financially if the season doesnt restart - bigger wage bills at Rovers and Dundalk could test the patience of owners having not laid off staff. Certainly it could test P6's level of committment. Now that Ive realised im in the wrong thread for this and going off topic - it could be in the interest of other clubs to see progression in Europe in event that there is redistribution of Euro money. In some ways its a conflict of interest, or at least the stronger 1 or 2 sides get, improving coefficients and making group stages could be important financially speaking, especially for new clubs joining a regional set-up!? Having one or 2 champions over a decade will improve the leagues stock more than 10 teams over 10 years in super competative league.....this make any sense to anyone else or have I completely lost it???

[nigel-harps1954]

Now that Ive realised im in the wrong thread for this and going off topic - it could be in the interest of other clubs to see progression in Europe in event that there is redistribution of Euro money. In some ways its a conflict of interest, or at least the stronger 1 or 2 sides get, improving coefficients and making group stages could be important financially speaking, especially for new clubs joining a regional set-up!? Having one or 2 champions over a decade will improve the leagues stock more than 10 teams over 10 years in super competative league.....this make any sense to anyone else or have I completely lost it???

Yeah, I get what you're saying.

And yeah, you've completely lost it.

[EatYerGreens]

A Fingal club actually based in Fingal and given time would have gotten huge support eventually. A move to Swords or Lusk or whatever was on the cards for them would have been massive in terms of creating a community fanbase. Swords, Malahide, Donabate, Lusk, Skerries etc must have a population of over 100k

Why ? Why would this just magically have happened ?

Most people in Ireland don't give a feck about local football. Those that do already support a team anyway. And a lot of the population of Fingal 'county' would have come from elsewhere in Dublin or the country originally, and if interested in domestic football would have pre-existing allegiances already that they wouldn't just suddenly trade-in.

Dublin has about 1.5m people, and yet hasn't resulted in anyone getting huge support. And that's with the benefit of existing, long-term, inter-generational support bases in long-established communities to build on.

I just think it's really naïve to believe huge crowds would somehow transpire for completely new clubs just by having them based in well-populated areas. That realistically isn't going to happen for any club anywhere until we have a well-promoted league consisting of credible teams with inter-generational support built over time competing for good prize money and making further in-roads into European competition. There are no magic beans for Irish club football.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Parochialism is a problem as some have mentioned. Is there any appetite for teams that could claim to represent larger areas as opposed to smaller urban centres? Kerry County instead of Tralee, Tipp United instead of Thurles, The West FC instead of Mayo etc. Or is that as pie in the sky as bringing back the third tier?

[EalingGreen]

If I may make some observations from afar, might I suggest that the basic problem about attracting new teams and bolstering the 1st Division, even introducing a pyramid etc, is as follows.

For any such system to work, it is necessary to have 16? 18? 20? teams (minimum) which are all broadly competitive?

By which I mean not that each has an equal chance of winning the title etc, but that the worst team shouldn't be that far off the best team (i.e. usually losing, but not by 5 or 6 goal hidings every time).

And since the Premier Division went full-time, that opened up a gap between Premier and First which is incredibly hard to bridge, unless FD clubs gamble and start spending money they don't have. And if/when they do, that makes it harder again for emerging clubs from further down to make the step-up to the FD.

Worse still, with the advent of big European prize money, there is even a danger of the PD dividing into "haves" and "have nots" (outliers like Bohs notwithstanding).

So that as things stand, ROI isn't capable of sustaining the number of stable, f-t clubs necessary to operate a pyramid incorporsting Promotion and Relegation, and to encourage emerging new entrants to come through etc.

I only say this because the Irish League, for all its other faults, esp lower standard of play, is able to sustain a successful and stable pyramid, with two Senior divisions and Internediate divisions feeding through to them and Junior league clubs having the opportunity to rise to Intermediate level. As a result, we have had far fewer clubs folding, while smaller (or newish) teams like Ballinamallard, Warrenpoint and Institute have been (broadly) able to hold their own.
But that has been achieved on the basis that all are/were effectively part-time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_football_league_system

Of course, that is now under threat as several teams (Linfield, Crues, Glens, Larne, even Cliftonville?) are now f-t, or actively planning to get there. And with European money also beginning to skew the finances, we may end up with a situation closer to that in the LOI - but that's for the future, and I am reasonably confident that the existing structure and administration, which is relatively (emphasise) efficient, may mitigate the worst effects.

Of course if you were to take, say, the top 10 LOI clubs and add the top 8 IL clubs, you might have the basis of a working top tier, with a sufficient number of teams below able (just about) to sustain P&R etc.

Now why didn't somebody think of that before? :)

[EatYerGreens]

Parochialism is a problem as some have mentioned. Is there any appetite for teams that could claim to represent larger areas as opposed to smaller urban centres? Kerry County instead of Tralee, Tipp United instead of Thurles, The West FC instead of Mayo etc. Or is that as pie in the sky as bringing back the third tier?

There are essentially four things that you need to have a well-supported football club anywhere :

1) A large (relatively speaking) potential catchment area
2) An interest within that area in the game (i.e. not a low priority sport after every other game), and ideally not other clubs or too many other clubs competing for that interest too.
3) Time. (Support is built over years, and the inter-generational aspect is key).
4) At least some periods of success (as that's what creates a buzz and draws in new interest, some of which then sticks with you).

Beyond that, the club ideally needs to be part of a healthy broader eco-system for the game to maximise crowds full stop. If it isn't, then the above four factors will explain the RELATIVE differences in support between clubs.

Notions of effectively creating a County Kerry FC etc franchise and expecting it to be a big hit are for the birds I'm afraid.

[pineapple stu]

If I may make some observations from afar, might I suggest that the basic problem about attracting new teams and bolstering the 1st Division, even introducing a pyramid etc, is as follows.

For any such system to work, it is necessary to have 16? 18? 20? teams (minimum) which are all broadly competitive?

By which I mean not that each has an equal chance of winning the title etc, but that the worst team shouldn't be that far off the best team (i.e. usually losing, but not by 5 or 6 goal hidings every time).

And since the Premier Division went full-time, that opened up a gap between Premier and First which is incredibly hard to bridge, unless FD clubs gamble and start spending money they don't have. And if/when they do, that makes it harder again for emerging clubs from further down to make the step-up to the FD.

Worse still, with the advent of big European prize money, there is even a danger of the PD dividing into "haves" and "have nots" (outliers like Bohs notwithstanding).

So that as things stand, ROI isn't capable of sustaining the number of stable, f-t clubs necessary to operate a pyramid incorporsting Promotion and Relegation, and to encourage emerging new entrants to come through etc.

I only say this because the Irish League, for all its other faults, esp lower standard of play, is able to sustain a successful and stable pyramid, with two Senior divisions and Internediate divisions feeding through to them and Junior league clubs having the opportunity to rise to Intermediate level. As a result, we have had far fewer clubs folding, while smaller (or newish) teams like Ballinamallard, Warrenpoint and Institute have been (broadly) able to hold their own.
But that has been achieved on the basis that all are/were effectively part-time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_football_league_system

Of course, that is now under threat as several teams (Linfield, Crues, Glens, Larne, even Cliftonville?) are now f-t, or actively planning to get there. And with European money also beginning to skew the finances, we may end up with a situation closer to that in the LOI - but that's for the future, and I am reasonably confident that the existing structure and administration, which is relatively (emphasise) efficient, may mitigate the worst effects.

Of course if you were to take, say, the top 10 LOI clubs and add the top 8 IL clubs, you might have the basis of a working top tier, with a sufficient number of teams below able (just about) to sustain P&R etc.

Now why didn't somebody think of that before? :)
While there's certainly something in that, I think a big issue here is that the LoI can't solve all its problems and has to pick and choose which to address.

The fact of the matter at the moment is that we kind of do have the IL system here, except no-one's interested in moving up to the second tier. There's various reasons for this - the cost, the change of season, the disconnect between the leagues which means that you have to leave your regional league to join the LoI and if it doesn't work out, you have to restart at the bottom of your regional league.

All of this is utterly insane of course. But there you go.

I think the LoI would be best served by an IL-style pyramid (I say IL-style - but really it's roughly the same thing every country in Europe has except us), but I don't think you could put in place overnight. Even if you changed the seasons and put a direct line in place between the leagues, teams would still decline promotion to the First Division because of its legitimate reputation as a killer of clubs.

So the reason I see a 16-team Premier as being the best way forward (not a panacea - just the best option at present) is that it actively encourages the stronger non-league sides to want to step up. Give it decent prize money, give them the buzz of promotion (I think the way Cabo came into the league hamstrung them from the very start), give them big games (on TV if possible), give them something to try help generate local interest and grow the club. If they end up relegated, well they just go back to where they came from and can try again. Let LoI B teams compete up to the second tier - another problem solved (it's effectively the LSL, and B teams compete there anyway).

Yes, you're right that this would probably lead to an uneven division - although most LoI clubs have shown they can be competitive given a bit of financial support - but I think it would help grow some new clubs. You've got to pick which one you want, and I think the latter is the preferable option.