Where might new clubs come from?

[nigel-harps1954]

Ok I may sound like Im just being awkward here, but if you consider Rovers, Cork Derry as examples of where grounds are already up to standard and have in the main been funded by the taxpayer (whether owned or not), to jump to providing admin staff or other things with funding is a win win for those clubs and arguably and inadvertant financial advantage to clubs with existing infrastructure already, allocated by a governing body. Maybe available money should allocated on need, to get all to a certain minimum before advancing to admin, academies and the like, together. If the 'admin' money was being used to fund Bohs like community based initiatives, i'd see that as different even if this has an indirect financial benefit to clubs via increased goodwill and hence attendances.

Have any of those clubs sufficient training facilities though? Derry and Dundalk obviously have their astro to train on, as well as Athlone. Dundalk obviously spent a lot of money getting the YDC up to standard too, but which of those clubs OWN a training complex? Rovers have Roadstone, but what facilities are there beyond a pitch and some basic dressing rooms?

Building proper, professional, training facilities would be a huge step forward to keeping players in Ireland. Some clubs jumping from town to town to train, facility to facility, not being fed, not being kept properly. Giving a solid base in which to work from has to be priority number one after stadiums are eventually all up to scratch.

If a club already has this, then yes, give them admin money. Do with as they please. It'll be the kick up the hole other clubs need to get themselves up to scratch.

[oriel]

Have any of those clubs sufficient training facilities though? Derry and Dundalk obviously have their astro to train on, as well as Athlone. Dundalk obviously spent a lot of money getting the YDC up to standard too, but which of those clubs OWN a training complex? Rovers have Roadstone, but what facilities are there beyond a pitch and some basic dressing rooms?

Building proper, professional, training facilities would be a huge step forward to keeping players in Ireland. Some clubs jumping from town to town to train, facility to facility, not being fed, not being kept properly. Giving a solid base in which to work from has to be priority number one after stadiums are eventually all up to scratch.

If a club already has this, then yes, give them admin money. Do with as they please. It'll be the kick up the hole other clubs need to get themselves up to scratch.

For home games only Nigel, Dundalk have that grass pitch behind the away end goal to train for away games apart from Derry. That actually was once owned by the club but sold to local grammar school 20 years ago or so, they have an arrangement to use it freely for training.

Oriel is a dump for fans, home and away, no argument, but the facilities inside the YDC are top class, I remember reading John Caulfield asked if he could go in for a look around one game, they had no problems, he was well impressed.

I bore myself even talking about it at times, but if the owners are not going to spend any bog money for spectator improvements, it really wouldn't cost that much to patch things up, L shape roof both sides of the stand, build a modest terrace and cover it behind town goal, option for seats at later point, this would take the bad look out of these 3 areas immediately.

There is the argument whats the point just patching it up as will not get long term use and may have to be demolished if proper structures went it, but is that really likely ?

[RathfarnhamHoop]

There are a couple ways the league could force an increase in standard of infrastructure but they'd all require pretty radical changes to the league in order to push clubs to do it

[El-Pietro]

Didnt realise that Cork City had extended their boundary. How far out has it extended to now?

https://www.corkcity.ie/en/council-services/public-info/boundary-extension/maps-of-the-new-city/

I can't find a good article with the original proposal and an readable image. The wiki page gives a description and links to news articles from the 2017. Little Island and Carrigtwohill were the main exclusions I beleieve from the final change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Cork_boundary_change

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Cork_boundary_change)

[EalingGreen]

I've been reading the above posts - too many, too long to addresss individually - and I keep coming back to something which I've long felt about football in Ireland (both parts).

If the plan is to invest in LOI football to expand the professional game, you need a number of factors i.e. solid, sustained financial investment; organisation and administration; infrastructure; state support; marketing and promotion; TV and commercial, sponsorship; a proper pyramid below the top flight to maintain competition and keep everyone on their toes; and (ideally) a wide geographical spread.

If all those could be developed over a period, then it should be possible for domestic football to start attracting many more of the people who are generally interested in football in ROI, but not in the LOI.

But as the thread title implies, this all has to be done through a professional club network which is bigger and more widespread than the present 12 or 14 who may properly be called "senior" or "professional". Where to get additional clubs from?

If you accept that there are few (very few?) immediately ready to step up from the FD etc, then you have to look to developing clubs to get there, but everyone knows how difficult that is: I mean, look at the state of the clubs in the FD, never mind the "pyramid" below - uninspiring to say the least. Why should this be so?

I am a great believer in history, tradition and the merits of being in a "proper football town". To explain, look eg to Burnley FC, a not very prosperous working class town of just 80k-odd in a part of England coming down with big clubs, where Rugby League is also strong. Yet as we know, they're regularly able to duke it out with the Big Boys, because they're a "PFT".

Compare them eg with Milton Keynes. MK is a fairly prosperous, middle class town of 250k people, centrally placed. They were gifted a professional football club, with a bit of investment behind them and a shiny big, new stadium. Yet with all these supposed advantages, they're struggling two divisions (soon to be three?) below Burnley. Why? Because MK is not and never has been, a PFT. (Before the Dons moved in, MK City were bumping along in the 7th or 8th tier, I think. They've since gone bust).

Now translate this to ROI. From what I can see, places like Dundalk, Sligo and Ballybofey can rightly call themselves PFT's, supporting stable, long established clubs with history and tradition, town centre stadia and a dependable fanbase which will stick with them even through the bad times. Not only that, but the town and surrounding regions "get" what their clubs are about, and so support them in other ways (corporate, sponsorship, local politicians etc).

There are others, of course, but ROI's problem is that there aren't enough of these, even in a country with a growing population which is affluent and has money for discretionary leisure spending. I may not be choosing good examples, but people look at eg Galway or Limerick and imagine that they should be able to be right up there with the big clubs in the LOI. Yet whether it is because they're a GAA town (Galway) or a rugby one (Limerick), or for other reasons, their seemingly perennial struggles to keep going somehow suggests to me that deep down, they're not really PFT's, i.e. closer to Milton Keynes than Burnley, notwithstanding that they've had clubs for much longer than MK. (No offence to loyal fans in those cities, by the way)

All of which suggests that if professional football clubs are ever going to exploit properly their (supposed) potential in places like that, it's likely to take 10? 20? 30? years of consistent application of the necessary qualities I listed earlier - and club football in Ireland (ROI and NI) simply doesn't work to those time scales.

All of which means that when you discount the alternative of creating "pop-up" clubs like eg Sporting Fingal, Kildare Co, or Monaghan U (have never worked and never will, imo), then that leaves combining with established NI clubs as your only realistic hope of expanding professional football significantly on the island any time soon.

"Here endeth the sermon for tonight..." :)

[Martinho II]

https://www.corkcity.ie/en/council-services/public-info/boundary-extension/maps-of-the-new-city/

I can't find a good article with the original proposal and an readable image. The wiki page gives a description and links to news articles from the 2017. Little Island and Carrigtwohill were the main exclusions I beleieve from the final change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Cork_boundary_change

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Cork_boundary_change)

Ah dont worry about it El Pietro I am always interested in stuff like this as I was intrigued by the extension of Cork City as bit of a nerd!

[oriel]

There are a couple ways the league could force an increase in standard of infrastructure but they'd all require pretty radical changes to the league in order to push clubs to do it

I think min standards of say 4k covered seats for PD wouldn't be outside unreasonable demands, then for any club being promoted who don't have this, a period of 2 years to have it installed.

Dundalk currently have 3.2k seats, with probably around 2k covered. This rule change would then force the club to increase seating by 800 (town end goal) and cover for 2k more than current (both sides of stand and behind town goal).

[RathfarnhamHoop]

I think min standards of say 4k covered seats for PD wouldn't be outside unreasonable demands, then for any club being promoted who don't have this, a period of 2 years to have it installed.

Dundalk currently have 3.2k seats, with probably around 2k covered. This rule change would then force the club to increase seating by 800 (town end goal) and cover for 2k more than current (both sides of stand and behind town goal).

That would work for some clubs but others would just basically go okay but what ya gonna do if we don't get to those standards? Relegate us for someone else that also doesn't meet the standards? Yeah right! The likes of Longford, Cobh, UCD, Cabinteely, Finn Harps do they really need 4k covered seats? Probably not and they know that so will they just decide to take the two years then go back down, they just might.

Could do a scaling requirements like after the first season you need 2k covered, after 3rd you need 3k, after 6th you need 5k. So that clubs don't have to go all in straight away, they can build to it.

The league has to properly incentivise clubs to want to meet the standards and to be honest that might involve cracking a few eggs.

Also the simple standards should be enforced like dugouts either side of halfway, I understand in some grounds there's reasons they might be slightly off but at places like Dalymount it's just ridiculous, both teams having access to tunnel, keep pitch clear and photographers far enough back, a TV studio, enough gantrys, enough permanent toilets. Basics like that especially in the Premier Division should just actually start to get enforced but I suspect the FAI have been afraid to crack those eggs so an incentive is needed.

[Bucket]

Some very good points made by several people on this thread. Unfortunately, because of the FAIs financial position, I think major investment by them in LOI is a few years away at a minimum.
In the meantime, the affiliation fees should be reduced to €1k each and abolish some of the ridiculous fines. This probably wouldn't make much of a difference to most of the Premier teams but it would stabilise the clubs that are struggling in the FD.
The FAI Cup needs to be expanded. All Intermediate teams plus each Junior league winner should take part. If a non-league club got a few home matches against a Premier team, generating big interest locally, they might be encouraged to apply to the LOI. This, along with the reduced affiliation fees and a guarantee that if it didn't work out that club could return to their Junior Premier Division rather than have to start over in the very bottom Junior division.
Longer term though, do we need three grades of adult football? Could all adult clubs not just be called senior. Align the seasons so that they run concurrently and introduce promotion from and relegation to provincial leagues.
First things first, the Competitions Director at the FAI's services are no longer required.

[oriel]

That would work for some clubs but others would just basically go okay but what ya gonna do if we don't get to those standards? Relegate us for someone else that also doesn't meet the standards? Yeah right! The likes of Longford, Cobh, UCD, Cabinteely, Finn Harps do they really need 4k covered seats? Probably not and they know that so will they just decide to take the two years then go back down, they just might.

Could do a scaling requirements like after the first season you need 2k covered, after 3rd you need 3k, after 6th you need 5k. So that clubs don't have to go all in straight away, they can build to it.

The league has to properly incentivise clubs to want to meet the standards and to be honest that might involve cracking a few eggs.

Also the simple standards should be enforced like dugouts either side of halfway, I understand in some grounds there's reasons they might be slightly off but at places like Dalymount it's just ridiculous, both teams having access to tunnel, keep pitch clear and photographers far enough back, a TV studio, enough gantrys, enough permanent toilets. Basics like that especially in the Premier Division should just actually start to get enforced but I suspect the FAI have been afraid to crack those eggs so an incentive is needed.

Thats not a bad idea, then the league just has to work out a directive to force Dundalk to improve Oriel Park spectator wise, how about for clubs particpating in europe, 4k covered seats, I know there are limits already from UEFA, for eg DFC can only hold up to 2 rounds in CL/EL.

[EalingGreen]

Could do a scaling requirements like after the first season you need 2k covered, after 3rd you need 3k, after 6th you need 5k. So that clubs don't have to go all in straight away, they can build to it.

See what you mean, but I'm not sure construction works like that?

That is: have the builders in, do a bit, have them leave, then have come back again and build some more. Far neater (and more cost-effective) to do as much as you can in one go.

Or if you had a winter season, it might be easy enough if you did it in stages over successive summers, when the weather's better.

But with your way, you'd either have them in while you're trying to stage games; or, you'd try to get stuff done in winter while the weather's bad - neither of which is ideal.

Might be better just to set a date by which the upgrades have to be complete (5 years? 10 years), on pain of relegation if not finished. That way, each club could tackle the job as best suits their own situation.

[EalingGreen]

Thats not a bad idea, then the league just has to work out a directive to force Dundalk to improve Oriel Park spectator wise, how about for clubs particpating in europe, 4k covered seats, I know there are limits already from UEFA, for eg DFC can only hold up to 2 rounds in CL/EL.Sounds ok until some little club goes on a great cup run some year, wins it and qualifies for Europe.

They might never be able to afford eg 4k covered seats, or their ground may be physically unable to accommodate same. Nor would ever need such a stadium again after they were out of Europe (after 1st round?).

In such circumstances you would have to permit them to use the nearest UEFA-compliant ground. And if that's good enough for them, it's only fair you do the same for bigger clubs like Dundalk.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

See what you mean, but I'm not sure construction works like that?

That is: have the builders in, do a bit, have them leave, then have come back again and build some more. Far neater (and more cost-effective) to do as much as you can in one go.

Or if you had a winter season, it might be easy enough if you did it in stages over successive summers, when the weather's better.

But with your way, you'd either have them in while you're trying to stage games; or, you'd try to get stuff done in winter while the weather's bad - neither of which is ideal.

Might be better just to set a date by which the upgrades have to be complete (5 years? 10 years), on pain of relegation if not finished. That way, each club could tackle the job as best suits their own situation.

Yeah I was just pulling number out of the air to illustrate the point, maybe I should have phrased it better but the general idea would be that you'd have it on a scale so you don't have situations where clubs either go for broke straight away to meet standards they don't need or put it all off until the last minute then end up being behind because bad weather or whatever delays the build.

The covered seats bit was just a placeholder for scalable standards of basically
A good FD ground - > a top FD ground - > a good PD ground
With the timescale scaling to be that first bit should mostly be remedial work that the club can do while not knowing if they'll go straight back down, second bit being the club put some investment in but not too much incase they go back down but by that stage they're looking to solidifying as a PD club and some planning permission may be involved, third bit being they're a solid PD club so should be doing proper work with detailed planning permission involved.

Obviously clubs could speed up their own timelines but they wouldn't be forced into a position that might put the club at risk

[EalingGreen]

And a really minor point : I'd disagree with your analysis of the chances of a few clubs in the north there, but especially Harland and Wolff Welders. I'd say there's no chance of them ever being genuine challengers in the IL. They're the work's team of a company that nearly went bust a few month's back. And their 'stadium' is poor (even if they do hope to redevelop it). Where would they get support from - given that anyone in East Belfast with a connection to the shipyards is probably already a Glens fan, and the shipyard could feasibly close at some future point?
Meant to come back on this one.

The Welders are no longer a "works" team, nor do they depend upon the shipyard (I'm not sure they ever did in fact, except originally for their playing pool).

Anyhow, they're now 55 years old and playing in the 2nd tier of the pyramid. Nor only that, but they have very impressive plans for a new stadium and training complex at Blanchflower Park, not far from their present ground at Tillysburn.

Indeed, they were hoping for it to be ready for the 2021/22 season, though Covid-19 has caused construction to pause.

Anyhow, here are the plans and a recent pic:

https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/d4823e7a-6902-4019-b7e6-d90e7ac93e88/0_Screen-Shot-2020-02-14-at-155316.png/:/rs=w:1280

https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/d4823e7a-6902-4019-b7e6-d90e7ac93e88/3.jpg/:/rs=w:1280
(Above incs. steel structure in place for pavilion and changing room block)

And as they pointed out last month:

Stage One of the Blanchflower revamp will see the development of Harland and Wolff Welders' new stadium.

Stage Two will see the remainder of the estate upgraded, with Stage Three focusing on nature trails and other community orientated projects.

"We want this to be a community hub, like other football clubs are doing," David said.

"We have received support from local churches, schools, community groups and also from other clubs who don't have adequate training and playing facilities."

Work will progress on a new 550-seater pavilion stand, with another 200-seater structure also being installed.

The Welders are also transporting a 200-seater stand from their current Tillysburn ground.

"The seating capacity will be just over 900, and then there will safe standing. So the overall capacity should be a few thousand," David said.

"This will be a stadium fit for Premiership football, and that's where we want this club to go.

"We have also had positive feedback on the potential for the new stadium to host youth internationals and women's internationals.

"Harland and Wolff Welders have come in for a lot of stick over the years, with people questioning our ambition.

"But I think these plans answer a lot of that criticism."

"This is going to be an asset for East Belfast, not just a new stadium for Harland and Wolff Welders."
More here: https://weldersfc.co.uk/news/f/new-stadium-update

Does that address your prediction in bold? :cool:

[EatYerGreens]

Meant to come back on this one.

The Welders are no longer a "works" team, nor do they depend upon the shipyard (I'm not sure they ever did in fact, except originally for their playing pool).

Anyhow, they're now 55 years old and playing in the 2nd tier of the pyramid. Nor only that, but they have very impressive plans for a new stadium and training complex at Blanchflower Park, not far from their present ground at Tillysburn.

Indeed, they were hoping for it to be ready for the 2021/22 season, though Covid-19 has caused construction to pause.

Anyhow, here are the plans and a recent pic:

https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/d4823e7a-6902-4019-b7e6-d90e7ac93e88/0_Screen-Shot-2020-02-14-at-155316.png/:/rs=w:1280

https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/d4823e7a-6902-4019-b7e6-d90e7ac93e88/3.jpg/:/rs=w:1280
(Above incs. steel structure in place for pavilion and changing room block)

And as they pointed out last month:

Stage One of the Blanchflower revamp will see the development of Harland and Wolff Welders' new stadium.

Stage Two will see the remainder of the estate upgraded, with Stage Three focusing on nature trails and other community orientated projects.

"We want this to be a community hub, like other football clubs are doing," David said.

"We have received support from local churches, schools, community groups and also from other clubs who don't have adequate training and playing facilities."

Work will progress on a new 550-seater pavilion stand, with another 200-seater structure also being installed.

The Welders are also transporting a 200-seater stand from their current Tillysburn ground.

"The seating capacity will be just over 900, and then there will safe standing. So the overall capacity should be a few thousand," David said.

"This will be a stadium fit for Premiership football, and that's where we want this club to go.

"We have also had positive feedback on the potential for the new stadium to host youth internationals and women's internationals.

"Harland and Wolff Welders have come in for a lot of stick over the years, with people questioning our ambition.

"But I think these plans answer a lot of that criticism."

"This is going to be an asset for East Belfast, not just a new stadium for Harland and Wolff Welders."
More here: https://weldersfc.co.uk/news/f/new-stadium-update

Does that address your prediction in bold? :cool:

I've been to watch Welders play. They had almost no fans at the game, and were significantly outnumbered by away support.

Where are they going to get supporters from? Anyone in the east who likes local football already has Glentoran to identify with. If someone's never had any connection to the shipyards, why would they support them? And even if they did, most would probably already support Glens anyway. It's just unfeasible that Welders are going to achieve much in the game, because that requires support (and the money it brings). A new ground isn't going to address that. It may help them raise a bit more money. But that would only contribute towards success because the IL is so poorly supported.

[EalingGreen]

I've been to watch Welders play. They had almost no fans at the game, and were significantly outnumbered by away support.

Where are they going to get supporters from? Anyone in the east who likes local football already has Glentoran to identify with. If someone's never had any connection to the shipyards, why would they support them? And even if they did, most would probably already support Glens anyway. It's just unfeasible that Welders are going to achieve much in the game, because that requires support (and the money it brings). A new ground isn't going to address that. It may help them raise a bit more money. But that would only contribute towards success because the IL is so poorly supported.
You miss my point.

The thread is entitled: "Where might new clubs come from?"

If you look at ROI, outside the 8 or 10 established PD clubs, there is nothing doing much left in the FD. And beyond that, there is no pyramid from which to grow senior clubs either.

Meanwhile creating new clubs (eg Fingal, Kildare etc) or asking existing lower clubs to step up (eg Monaghan, Cabinteely) has been seen not to work as well. Basically the well is dry.

Whereas the situation in NI offers some small hope, if not in the near future. If you refer back to my post #125, I listed 8 x senior, stable, established clubs.

Below that there are another 7 x clubs which, if carefully nurtured, might between them produce another couple of clubs which could step up. (Portadown? Larne?)

And even below that, there is the same number again from which the most successful one or two might eventually hope eg to do a Larne or a Dungannon. Note the "one or two" and the "eventually" - you're never going to see all of them make it, in fact some of them probably won't even try.

Which is where H&WW come in. They're just one example of a stable club which has been competing successfully at its own level for over half a century now. During that time they've gradually "upped their game", such that they're now hoping to attain senior, competitive status. And the new facilities, along with the community work they're doing on the ground etc, should give them a chance of doing so in the IL in the next 10 years, say.

Which is not to say they've realistic prospects of achieving regular AIL status any time soon - that could take another half century, if ever. But my point is, that assuming eg the Glens could exploit an AIL place to get back to their former status as one of the island's top teams, then clubs like the Welders or Dundela might step up locally to take their place at the next level down in NI.

And it is the same elsewhere in NI, where eg Carrick Rangers or Ballyclare Comrades might one day put in a challenge to Ballymena or Larne; or eg Portadown finally get sorted to make mid-Ulster football competitive again aganst Glenavon and Dungannon; or one of Newry or Warrenpoint put in a challenge from South Down.

For if an AIL is to have any hope of achieving stable, long-term success, it won't do so solely on the back of a pool of 12 or 14 existing LOI and IL clubs - it will also need the firm foundations of a strong pyramid below, to keep it competitive and make P & R work etc. And frankly, if you're looking for additional clubs to make up such a pyramid, NI arguably offers rather better prospects than ROI right now.

[EalingGreen]

Forgot to add to the above post, but some interesting background on the Welders here, though more recent events have since overtaken it:

http://liberoguide.com/full-steam-ahead/

(But I stress again, if the odds must still be heavily against any individual club like the Welders making the transition to genuine senior status, nonetheless they're only one of a number of clubs who hope to, meaning that one or two could still manage it.)

[Nesta99]

There are always questions on what smaller clubs can bring to a league, UCD fans are worn out explaining their role, and giving younger players a chance at playing senior football is probably the most common angle. But if people are involved in a club then they will surely have some ambition to improve the club's standing, from just keeping the show on the road to trying to be competative at the highest level they can. It's laudable on one hand, but blind ambition on the other will end in tears eventually.

From just the piece above it looks like a reasonably balanced plan as part of an overall community development, without the 'community' aspect it wouldnt make a whole lot of sense. There are 100s of similarly typed facilities, often only km's apart in GAA circles - stupid levels of duplication. If there is an unrealistic level of ambition at HWW especially on their ground development ye'd like to hope that public funding wouldnt be thrown at it, and that they'd be told to scale back. Duplication of amenities is an island wide issue, with every sport and respective clubs wanting their own patch only (not inexplicably in N.I. but still politically driven in RoI too). Which I can often understand tbh - ShelBohs will interesting to look back on in due course to see if concern was warrented, but groundshares and multi-use facilities should be looked at more often. If it is in some way to make sure that the numbers of clubs are kept up by the association its wishful thinking over the long run imo.

As a hypthetical example that could come to pass, if Drogheda Town decided to join a regional setup in senior football, they could co exist reasonably well with Drogheda United. But it would have to be in different 'roles', level of ambition, and if possible not to try and just outdo another. It would be ridiculous for public money to go to a DTFC ground development of significant substance eg a 500+ seater stand. Clubrooms, floodlighting, pitch capacity etc. is fair enough. Play their occasional cup draw and/or senior games at a DUFC/community facility.

People comment on Dublin having a disproportionate number of clubs in Loi, but it is to do with regional representation as population wise its probably par for the course. Belfast and district is looking a bit congested comparitively with senior IL clubs?

[DCWA]

There are no shortage of clubs in Ireland that meet the criteria that Welders do, stable and successful over a prolonged period of time at their own level, good facilities, rooted in community etc

If you are going to use them as an example of another team that could step into IL on that basis then you cannot simultaneously claim “basically the well is dry” as regards LOI.

You are of course entirely right when it comes to the lack of a proper pyramid system / structure but if you are willing to stretch it to a local junior club the size of Welders the clubs would be there in every county.

[Nesta99]

You miss my point.

The thread is entitled: "Where might new clubs come from?"

If you look at ROI, outside the 8 or 10 established PD clubs, there is nothing doing much left in the FD. And beyond that, there is no pyramid from which to grow senior clubs either.

Meanwhile creating new clubs (eg Fingal, Kildare etc) or asking existing lower clubs to step up (eg Monaghan, Cabinteely) has been seen not to work as well. Basically the well is dry.

While examples are embaressingly numerous, I'm not so sure that there is a direct comparison, or a precedence that failure is inevitable going forward. The FAI efforts were always a short term sticking plaster for a league that they didnt want anything to do with. Completely lost their way on why they existed, the development of the game nationally. The IFA were quicker to realise that improving the domestic top flight was the only sustainable way to improve the national side.
There is little stopping the FAI following a similar blueprint if they have the will. That a structure was developed by the IFA in itself is showing that it possible in a small country/population.

It is very early for any major leap of faith on the FAI, but its a lot more plausable now that things could get a proper shake up. Clubs were coming and going from a disgracefully neglected LoI, maybe even being bled to subsidise someones expenses. I dont think that this precludes the development of a structure that will allow clubs make a more sustainable step up in the future. I say this tentatively considering the financing issues in Abbotstwon currently....

[nigel-harps1954]

There are no shortage of clubs in Ireland that meet the criteria that Welders do, stable and successful over a prolonged period of time at their own level, good facilities, rooted in community etc

If you are going to use them as an example of another team that could step into IL on that basis then you cannot simultaneously claim “basically the well is dry” as regards LOI.

You are of course entirely right when it comes to the lack of a proper pyramid system / structure but if you are willing to stretch it to a local junior club the size of Welders the clubs would be there in every county.

Same point I was going to make really.

I know of, at least, Fanad United that were all set to join what was initially touted as a First Division North a couple of years back when the FAI disbanded the A Championship. There was chat at the time of regionalised second tier, and Fanad had ambitions to go into that. They have a grand little ground, albeit lacking seating, well embedded in the community, far enough away from Harps or Derry to cause much bother there, and would probably have got 200-300 people attending games easy enough.

The same story could be told of many junior and intermediate clubs across Ireland.

There's certainly potential for many clubs across Ireland. But each one of them would be mad to want to join the LOI as it stands without any pyramid.

[EatYerGreens]

Basically the well is dry.

The well is far from dry.

It's the pump to bring the water to the surface that's the problem.

[EalingGreen]

From just the piece above it looks like a reasonably balanced plan as part of an overall community development, without the 'community' aspect it wouldnt make a whole lot of sense... ... If there is an unrealistic level of ambition at HWW especially on their ground development ye'd like to hope that public funding wouldnt be thrown at it, and that they'd be told to scale back.
BCC aren't throwing money at a stadium for the Welders, just so they can fulfil their ambition to become a senior professional club.

The Council is developing Blanchflower Park, which they own, to provide a wide range of enhanced community facilities for the whole of the area.

H&WW are joining in to help develop the community aspect and bring in their own resources, also those of the IFA, who are also supportive. (And they will, I assume, be paying rent?)

As such, Welders are more like the sporting equivalent of a "flagship store" in a Retail Park, than a Council vanity project, or vote-building ruse.

[EalingGreen]

There are no shortage of clubs in Ireland that meet the criteria that Welders do, stable and successful over a prolonged period of time at their own level, good facilities, rooted in community etc

If you are going to use them as an example of another team that could step into IL on that basis then you cannot simultaneously claim “basically the well is dry” as regards LOI.
I am not in any position to contest your point that there is "no shortage" of clubs like Welders in ROI.

But if so, I can't help wondering why they're not already embracing senior status via the FD?

For it is now 5 years since the FAI lowered the bar to admit Cabinteely (no offence to them, btw).

And since then things have only got worse, to the extent that in order to fill the FD this season, they frigged the system by retaining basket-cases like Galway and Athlone, whilst being fortunate to have an outlier in UCD (i.e. University-supported).

And even after all that, they still had to allow Shamrock Rovers Reserves in to get it up to 10* clubs.


* - It's 12 in the NI equivalent btw, ditto the top tier = 24 senior IL teams vs 20 in LOI.



You are of course entirely right when it comes to the lack of a proper pyramid system / structure but if you are willing to stretch it to a local junior club the size of Welders the clubs would be there in every county.
Welders are not a "Junior" club, they're not even an Intermediate one.

And if anything, the lack of a pyramid in the ROI only serves to help new clubs with ambitions of senior status.

For in NI, Intermediate clubs have to meet minimum standards re. facilities and administration etc before they will be considered for Senior status. And these standards, which are being continually upgraded*, are assessed on an objective basis, rather than on the whim of the CEO and his cronies at HQ.

Whereas the Shams Reserves example illustrates the desperation of the FAI to accept any half-decent looking application from a new club, without having to bother with any of that Intermediate/pyramid business.


* - See: https://www.irishfa.com/irish-football-association/intermediate-football-restructure-project

[EalingGreen]

People comment on Dublin having a disproportionate number of clubs in Loi, but it is to do with regional representation as population wise its probably par for the course. Belfast and district is looking a bit congested comparitively with senior IL clubs?
Imo it is a common mistake to look at mere population figures and derive from them some sort of guide to where and how many clubs you should have.

For on that basis, countries like China or Indonesia would have loads of world-beating clubs. Whereas a club like Burnley - i.e. in a small town, surrounded by big city clubs - could never hope to survive, never mind thrive (extreme examples, I know).

For me, the eistence of a healthy football culture and tradition is much more important. For example, I think I read somewhere that at the time of the IFA/FAI split, there were more registered football clubs in Co.Antrim alone, than the whole of Munster and Connaught combined. Is it any wonder that both those Provinces both appear so under-represented on the football map nearly a century later

And getting back eg to the Welders*, if North Belfast can maintain two senior clubs in Crues and C'ville, there's no good reason why given time and careful nurturing, a footballing hotbed like East Belfast shouldn't be able to support a second team.


* - If I appear to be obsessing over East Belfast/Welders, it's only because another poster picked them out of a list of possible candidates - there are others.

[Nesta99]

BCC aren't throwing money at a stadium for the Welders, just so they can fulfil their ambition to become a senior professional club.

The Council is developing Blanchflower Park, which they own, to provide a wide range of enhanced community facilities for the whole of the area.

H&WW are joining in to help develop the community aspect and bring in their own resources, also those of the IFA, who are also supportive. (And they will, I assume, be paying rent?)

As such, Welders are more like the sporting equivalent of a "flagship store" in a Retail Park, than a Council vanity project, or vote-building ruse.

I certainly didnt intend to sound as if I was saying that it is a pointless development or a Fingal like vanity project, but that if such circumstances did happen that there would be some balance and check. But if club is using their own resources they could build a 990k stadium. It sounds like a win win that a Dundalk FC would grab!!

It's probably more accurate to say that there are clubs that could be of a similar scale to HWW in due course if they were to move to senior football and build on that. The reasons for not doing so is due to financial risk it was and still is. There is hope though that circumstance will change sooner than later (ie in the next 10 years in the current climate). There are junior and intermediate clubs that would be well embedded in a community and established long term albeit not currently in LoI. But it is all hypothetical or potential, which doesnt mean a whole lot at this time.

[Nesta99]

Imo it is a common mistake to look at mere population figures and derive from them some sort of guide to where and how many clubs you should have.

For on that basis, countries like China or Indonesia would have loads of world-beating clubs. Whereas a club like Burnley - i.e. in a small town, surrounded by big city clubs - could never hope to survive, never mind thrive (extreme examples, I know).

For me, the eistence of a healthy football culture and tradition is much more important. For example, I think I read somewhere that at the time of the IFA/FAI split, there were more registered football clubs in Co.Antrim alone, than the whole of Munster and Connaught combined. Is it any wonder that both those Provinces both appear so under-represented on the football map nearly a century later

And getting back eg to the Welders*, if North Belfast can maintain two senior clubs in Crues and C'ville, there's no good reason why given time and careful nurturing, a footballing hotbed like East Belfast shouldn't be able to support a second team.


* - If I appear to be obsessing over East Belfast/Welders, it's only because another poster picked them out of a list of possible candidates - there are others.

It has some relevance but again it's a potential. I'm sure that it is a consideration also though when making a pitch to investors, govt in terms of the impact on a community especially as part of regeneration. A chicken or egg situation. There ideally would be lot of partnership work, but there is obviously less risk for a club with an existing tradition, even a phoenix club. All clubs were new boys on the block at some point if not founding members of an association. A the time of the IFA/FAI split there had been 30 odd years of erosion of 'garrison games' under the belt. It's and interesting part of Irish sporting and social history that has only really been properly researched over the last decade. The history of GAA is part and parcel too.

[EatYerGreens]

I am not in any position to contest your point that there is "no shortage" of clubs like Welders in ROI.

But if so, I can't help wondering why they're not already embracing senior status via the FD?

Because that FAI has ensured that joining the LOI is financial suicide.

It would cost a club more than they would receive in prize money. It would significantly increase their player, matchday and travel costs. It would distract them from the activities they currently do at intermediate, junior and schoolboy/women's level. And it could even put whatever assets they have in jeopardy. And all to join a set up that a lot of people think is no better than a glorified pub league. So why would any club want to do that ? The only well that's gone dry is the one containing clubs stupid enough to not realise this, or daft enough to not care.

All-in-all it's a no brainer that no-one wants to join. Contrast with the situation 20years ago when the LOI had no problem getting new teams to join as and when it needed them, and even had two clubs in the same town - Mullingar - in a ridiculous ego-fuelled arms race to see who could make it into the league first (in the end, Kildare County was selected ahead of them). Because it wasn't financial suicide then, but after almost 2 decades of John Delaney now it is.

[EatYerGreens]

I think I read somewhere that at the time of the IFA/FAI split, there were more registered football clubs in Co.Antrim alone, than the whole of Munster and Connaught combined. Is it any wonder that both those Provinces both appear so under-represented on the football map nearly a century later

Whilst I agree with the 'footballing tradition' argument, I think this is a bit laboured. You can't compare the situation 100years ago with today. Football back then was still largely a novelty anywhere in the south outside of Dublin. It was only played in small pockets in Munster (Cork city and north Tipperary primarily), and VConnacht was essentially just a few clubs in Sligo town..

There was also a time in history when there would have been more football clubs registered in County Antrim than in the whole of Brazil or Argentina, for example - for what that's worth. At a guess, there are probably more clubs in Dublin these days than in Belfast. 'Soccer' is the Number 1 participation team sport in the Republic nowadays.

[EalingGreen]

Because that FAI has ensured that joining the LOI is financial suicide.

It would cost a club more than they would receive in prize money. It would significantly increase their player, matchday and travel costs. It would distract them from the activities they currently do at intermediate, junior and schoolboy/women's level. And it could even put whatever assets they have in jeopardy. And all to join a set up that a lot of people think is no better than a glorified pub league. So why would any club want to do that ? The only well that's gone dry is the one containing clubs stupid enough to not realise this, or daft enough to not care.

All-in-all it's a no brainer that no-one wants to join.How do other, comparable leagues manage?

I mean, how much prize money does the Cymru Premier League generate? It has two regional feeder Divisions below, with a further pyramid beneath.

Or Scotland, which has barely a bigger population than ROI, yet maintains a 42 team league set-up, even despite the Two Ugly Sisters sucking the life out of the game throughout trhe country.

In England, the National League manages to sustain 24 teams, many of them f-t, even beneath the 92 PL and EFL clubs.

And (ahem) in NI, we can somehow sustain 24 senior teams with a viable pyramid beneath and hardly huge prize-money.

How many of those clubs are dependent on league prize money to survive, esp the ones at the bottom of the leagues who, by definition, don't receive much of the prize pot anyway?

Meanwhile, prize money can only be a small part of revenue, alongside eg gate receipts, sponsorship, advertising, facilities hire, lotteries and social clubs etc. All of which is before we get to European money.

And considering ROI is wealthier per capita than E, S, W and NI, I'd have thought there should be enough money around generally to sustain more f-t or p-t clubs?



Contrast with the situation 20years ago when the LOI had no problem getting new teams to join as and when it needed them, and even had two clubs in the same town - Mullingar - in a ridiculous ego-fuelled arms race to see who could make it into the league first (in the end, Kildare County was selected ahead of them). Because it wasn't financial suicide then, but after almost 2 decades of John Delaney now it is.
What happened all those clubs, then?

And if they were only genuinely solvent on the back of prize money, how much was it back then? And how much was European prize money, or UEFA subvention generally, in those days?

It seems to me that there must be structural problems in domestic football in ROI which go far beyond league prize money. These may be down to:
(a ) Individual clubs eg don't own their own stadium, content to rely on a benefactor, won't live within their means etc; and
(b ) ****-poor organistation and administration eg lack of pyramid, negligent licensing, inadequate financial monitoring etc.

And I am only concerned by this because until clubs in ROI address these off-field problems head-on, then it must pose an existential risk to any AIL just as hazardous as that of NI clubs not being competitive on-the-field. :(

[EatYerGreens]

How do other, comparable leagues manage?

I guess they manage by not having a football association that seeks to make a profit out of running its league, whilst leaving clubs in that league essentially skint.

I'm not aware of any other football association which charges clubs more to be in the league than it gives back to them in prize money, for example.

The point isn't about relying on prize money to survive. It's that the mere act of joining the LOI is going to end up costing any new club money just in payments to the FAI. Especially if they end up at the bottom end of the First Division table (as you would realistically expect new clubs to do). So why would they bother?

PS. For someone who passes comment a lot on football in the south, you don't seem to understand how it works that much.

[DCWA]

Welders are not a "Junior" club, they're not even an Intermediate one.

]

No, in the south they would be considered very much a “junior” club.

This is simply a matter of different terminology being used between IL//LOI I am aware of what constitutes the difference / stepping up point between junior/intermediate/senior football in the north, there are plenty of Derry teams who are part of that structure.

[EalingGreen]

I'm not aware of any other football association which charges clubs more to be in the league than it gives back to them in prize money, for example.

Except that that's not the case.
For as Mr. Parker pointed out in the AIL thread (post # 266), although the net receipts are poor, nonetheless clubs still get more out than they pay in:
https://foot.ie/attachment.php?attachmentid=2843&d=1589481275



The point isn't about relying on prize money to survive. It's that the mere act of joining the LOI is going to end up costing any new club money just in payments to the FAI. Especially if they end up at the bottom end of the First Division table (as you would realistically expect new clubs to do). So why would they bother?
You cannot simply ignore all the other potential benefits of stepping up and just fixate on the costs of league registration and fines etc versus prize money. For even if you were correct and that it costs the clubs more than they take out (and you're not, see above), this ignores a raft of other factors.

By moving up to the LOI, clubs can hope to increase revenues by charging more at the gate and attracting more fans (both home and visiting), as well as making more from commercial activities, sponsorship, advertising and media etc. By generating more revenue, they can hope to improve their facilities and amenities over time, charge more accordingly and so on. In time, they might even aspire to European football eg Dungannon Swifts have twice finished 4th in the IL, while Ballinamallard, a village club from Fermanagh established in 1975, got to the final of the Irish Cup last season.

Of course all this takes a great deal of hard work and commitment over a long period, during which there will be hard times as well as good. Which is why it is much more likely to come from well-established clubs with firm foundations and history etc, rather than "pop-up clubs" that may be here today, gone tomorrow.

But that's what every club in every league needs to progress: it's called Ambition.



PS. For someone who passes comment a lot on football in the south, you don't seem to understand how it works that much. One of the reasons I come on here is to learn from other, better-informed contributors, who generally stick to the point and avoid getting personal.

Of course, that is not the case with every poster...

Oh well.

[EatYerGreens]

Except that that's not the case.
For as Mr. Parker pointed out in the AIL thread (post # 266), although the net receipts are poor, nonetheless clubs still get more out than they pay in:
https://foot.ie/attachment.php?attachmentid=2843&d=1589481275

That's not the full picture though, as fines etc have to be factored in as well (it's impossible to avoid at least some in an average season). Those basic numbers don't reflect the big split in prize money between the PD and FD either. The prize money for finishing in the bottom half of the FD is pretty derisory.


You cannot simply ignore all the other potential benefits of stepping up and just fixate on the costs of league registration and fines etc versus prize money. For even if you were correct and that it costs the clubs more than they take out (and you're not, see above), this ignores a raft of other factors.

You'll have to make that appeal directly to the non-league clubs themselves. A lot of whom deride the LOI and think it's not much better than a pub league. There is also the added fact that many non-league teams are happy to just be big fish in small ponds, and sticking to what they know. An accusation which is often levelled at IL clubs as well by the way.


By moving up to the LOI, clubs can hope to increase revenues by charging more at the gate and attracting more fans (both home and visiting), as well as making more from commercial activities, sponsorship, advertising and media etc. By generating more revenue, they can hope to improve their facilities and amenities over time, charge more accordingly and so on.

It seems that to carry such hopes is fine and reasonable when it comes to a non-league club joining senior football, but not to northern clubs joining an all-island league. Maybe the non-league clubs are refusing to join until a fully costed proposal is presented to them, and European places guaranteed :p


In time, they might even aspire to European football eg Dungannon Swifts have twice finished 4th in the IL, while Ballinamallard, a village club from Fermanagh established in 1975, got to the final of the Irish Cup last season.

In short you're talking about 'chasing the dream' here. You can't take on the risk of a big step up in the cost of running a football club in the hope of landing black swan once-a-generation events like that. 90mins of losing cup glory a season ago didn't stop Ballinamallard from getting relegated, for example. Memories of a big day out at Windsor Park are great for fans, but of limited comfort when you're now facing a diet of playing the likes of the PSNI or Knockbreda.

The real killer is that there is a growing split in the LOI between the top clubs and the rest, so talk of someone like a Cabinteely ending up in Europe within any sort of sensible timescale is increasingly fantastical.


Of course all this takes a great deal of hard work and commitment over a long period, during which there will be hard times as well as good. Which is why it is much more likely to come from well-established clubs with firm foundations and history etc, rather than "pop-up clubs" that may be here today, gone tomorrow.

Which is just an argument against clubs joining the LOI too. By the way, it's pretty condescending to talk about LOI new entrants as pop up clubs. The overwhelming majority over the years were long-established outfits e.g. St James's Gate, St Francis, Cabinteely, Kildare County (which was basically Newbridge Town under a broader name), Bray, Monaghan, Longford etc etc. You can sneer at where some of these have ended up since, but apart from Sporting Fingal and Dublin City all the clubs who have joined the LOI over the years have been established sides.


But that's what every club in every league needs to progress: it's called Ambition.

The same argument could be made for why clubs should join an all-island league.


One of the reasons I come on here is to learn from other, better-informed contributors, who generally stick to the point and avoid getting personal.

Of course, that is not the case with every poster...

Oh well.

With respect it genuinely feels more like you're here to pontificate, condescend and sneer than to learn. On a mission to preach to them southerners about all they're doing wrong in football and how the north is just so much better at it all. Football in the Republic has its problems, we know that. You continually try to portray it as an irredeemable basketcase, and an inferior entity to the game in the north. And there is more than an element of sneering in some of your posts. Unusual that some may find that objectionable. If you genuinely are here to learn, maybe reflect a little on how your posts are likely to be perceived.

[pineapple stu]

Of course all this takes a great deal of hard work and commitment over a long period, during which there will be hard times as well as good. Which is why it is much more likely to come from well-established clubs with firm foundations and history etc, rather than "pop-up clubs" that may be here today, gone tomorrow.

But that's what every club in every league needs to progress: it's called Ambition.
I think you're both simultaneously getting the point and not getting it.

Yes, inventing a new club for the league is more likely to lead to failure. We've seen that lots of times here. But I think few enough people are arguing that point.

And yes, you're right that it takes ambition for a club to step up.

But the pros of doing so have to be weighed against the cons. Look at Tralee Dynamoes, who were an existing club with ambition. They left the Kerry District League to join the A Championship, with views of stepping up to the First Division in due course. To do so meant changing their season from Sept-May to Mar-Oct. But after three years, the FAI scrapped the A Championship and refused Tralee's application to join the First Division. So Tralee had to rejoin the Kerry District League - but at the bottom, three divisions below where they had been, and change their season back to Sept-May, which meant (I think) that for eight months they had no games at all. It took them years to get back to where they had been.

Compare that with, say, Larne who in 2007/08 realised they were in above their level, but were able to just opt for relegation one level for the following season.

There's a huge difference between those two. The point of a proper pyramid is to encourage ambition. The LoI structure actively ****s over clubs who look to step up by removing their safety net back down if required, even to the extent of leaving them almost a whole year without a match, and setting the club back years. Why would a club risk that? And this is the point - you have to weigh the pros and the cons.

This has created the unfortunate position that local leagues are now a de facto height of ambition - being LSL champions means far more than it should do for example, and clubs are often happy to have just local ambitions. The LoI is a blind spot for them because of the risks going up there entails. So the structure here is so bad that it is now self-perpetuating.

But get rid of that fundamental barrier to ambition that exists in the LoI, and you will find plenty of clubs like H&W here. A lack of clubs is not the issue here; it's the lack of a structure to encourage ambition.

[EalingGreen]

That's not the full picture though, as fines etc have to be factored in as well (it's impossible to avoid at least some in an average season). Those basic numbers don't reflect the big split in prize money between the PD and FD either. The prize money for finishing in the bottom half of the FD is pretty derisory.
The final net figures may be low, but that's different from what you were claiming i.e. that the FAI were taking more out than they were putting back in. (And even if the fines levied may have been over-the-top, care can still be taken to avoid some of them).



You'll have to make that appeal directly to the non-league clubs themselves. A lot of whom deride the LOI and think it's not much better than a pub league. There is also the added fact that many non-league teams are happy to just be big fish in small ponds, and sticking to what they know. An accusation which is often levelled at IL clubs as well by the way.
If it is a "pub league", don't just complain, fix it.
Other comparable leagues have taken steps to get their house in order, what's so special about the LOI?

And yes, there are (major) problems with the IL, but at least the parties concerned - clubs, NIFL and IFA - are making some effort to improve things, with at least moderate success.



It seems that to carry such hopes is fine and reasonable when it comes to a non-league club joining senior football, but not to northern clubs joining an all-island league. Maybe the non-league clubs are refusing to join until a fully costed proposal is presented to them, and European places guaranteed.
Yes, of course those are arguments for Intermediate clubs stepping up to Senior status.

But maybe I didn't explain my point clearly. Which is that you can't just take the top 12 (14?) (16?) clubs from the IL and LOI and form them into an AIL, sit back and think "Job done".

You need a stable structure beneath the AIL to provide firm foundations, to provide proper Promotion and Relegation and keep the AIL fresh and competitive. Which means having care for the next-level clubs who will take the place in the "feeder" leagues of the clubs moving up to the AIL.

Otherwise you will just end up with the same situation as in the present LOI, which exists for the benefit of 8 or 10 clubs at best and "to hell with the rest". Which leads in turn to the shambles that is the FD, with the same stasis beneath that.

Meanwhile, the large majority of IL Premiership clubs are giving Lucid's proposals a fair hearing. This is because they are open to the idea of joining an AIL. But that doesn't preclude them (and the IFA) from having legitimate concerns as to Lucid's ability to deliver what he's promising.



In short you're talking about 'chasing the dream' here. You can't take on the risk of a big step up in the cost of running a football club in the hope of landing black swan once-a-generation events like that. 90mins of losing cup glory a season ago didn't stop Ballinamallard from getting relegated, for example. Memories of a big day out at Windsor Park are great for fans, but of limited comfort when you're now facing a diet of playing the likes of the PSNI or Knockbreda.
Absolutely not!

"Chasing the dream" means spending money you don't have on unrealistic targets over an unrealistic timeframe. I deliberately cited Mallards and Swifts because they have come from modest beginnings, to elevated (for them) status, and all done by living within their means. So that when they fall back from occasional peak years, it doesn't bust them, they just regroup and go again.

Which is what most IL clubs do and many LOI clubs don't. (And that isn't "sneering", it's a simple fact)



The real killer is that there is a growing split in the LOI between the top clubs and the rest, so talk of someone like a Cabinteely ending up in Europe within any sort of sensible timescale is increasingly fantastical.

No doubt.

But just replacing a set-up whereby a handful of LOI clubs are detached from the rest of football in ROI, with an AIL set-up whereby those same handful of clubs are joined by a few IL clubs, both of which are even further detached from the rest of football in both ROI and NI, is not progress. Rather it's just the same old problem with a few extra noughts on the end.

As for Cabinteely in Europe, of course it's fantastical, which is why I never suggested it. But it actually proves my point in another way, which is that clubs like Cabinteely shouldn't be allowed into the senior set-up in the first place, unless/until they prove they're ready for it.



Which is just an argument against clubs joining the LOI too. By the way, it's pretty condescending to talk about LOI new entrants as pop up clubs. The overwhelming majority over the years were long-established outfits e.g. St James's Gate, St Francis, Cabinteely, Kildare County (which was basically Newbridge Town under a broader name), Bray, Monaghan, Longford etc etc. You can sneer at where some of these have ended up since, but apart from Sporting Fingal and Dublin City all the clubs who have joined the LOI over the years have been established sides.
The point about a "pop-up venue" is that it, er, "pops-up", then either becomes permanently established, or goes away again.

Of those 9 clubs you cite, none is in the PD, 3 are in the FD and 6 are either non-league or disappeared. And of the 3 in the FD, none is exactly setting the heather alight.

Again, you might object to my tone or terminology, but you cannot fault my reasoning.



The same argument [i.e. "ambition"] could be made for why clubs should join an all-island league.

I had hoped it would be taken as read that Ambition should be realistic.

And right now, there are barely a 12 or 14 clubs, north and south, who could hope realistically to compete in an AIL.

And the example of the LOI PD demonstrates that that is not enough to sustain a stable, healthy competition over the long term, unless you also have a stable, healthy foundation below.

And my whole point is that for all the many, acknowledged deficiencies of the IL, it is more likely to provide the foundation clubs for the next level down from the AIL than the LOI.

Therefore it would be folly for any new structure to be set up in such a way as to "fillet" the set-up in NI after the top half dozen have left for an AIL.




With respect it genuinely feels more like you're here to pontificate, condescend and sneer than to learn. On a mission to preach to them southerners about all they're doing wrong in football and how the north is just so much better at it all. Football in the Republic has its problems, we know that. You continually try to portray it as an irredeemable basketcase, and an inferior entity to the game in the north. And there is more than an element of sneering in some of your posts. Unusual that some may find that objectionable. If you genuinely are here to learn, maybe reflect a little on how your posts are likely to be perceived.
My concern is as follows.

I am generally in favour of an AIL in principle, provided it can work in practice. I would want my own team to be part of it. But what I don't want is to see a new AIL as just being "LOI PD 2.0 - Now with Added Nordies!"

For even after Lucid's modified proposals have addressed some of the most obvious drawbacks (independence of IFA, European places for NI clubs, summer/winter season etc), and even assuming he can produce the money he's promising, there still remain a number of other obstacles. In no particular order:

1. If we followed Lucid's (imo) rushed timetable, most of the IL clubs would be uncompetitive on the pitch. Which in turn could see spectator interest seep away north and south;
2. Too many of the LOI clubs have failed to demonstrate that they are financially sound. In a bigger league, the pressure to keep up would be even greater, meaning the losses would just be greater if/when some more of them went bust. And make no mistake, with greater potential rewards on offer, IL clubs would be tempted to abandon their more recent financial prudence too, meaning that we'd be back in "the arms race" as well;
3. As this thread asks, where are the clubs going to come from who can step up from their present 2nd tier level, to the new 2nd tier needed to underpin an AIL? Lucid hasn't even considered this aspect, never mind addressed it;
4. Finally, if the AIL should crash and burn after a few years (like eg the Setanta, or ITV Digital etc), what would the IL clubs have to fall back on, if the whole feeder set-up in NI had been filleted in the setting-up of the AIL? We must not fall into a situation like we see in the LOI, whereby the top half dozen clubs are increasingly detached from even the other PD clubs, never mind the FD clubs, since that serves no-one.

And if you consider that to be pontificating, condescending and sneering etc, then so be it - that's just how I see it, unless or until I can be persuaded otherwise.

[EalingGreen]

I think you're both simultaneously getting the point and not getting it.

Yes, inventing a new club for the league is more likely to lead to failure. We've seen that lots of times here. But I think few enough people are arguing that point.

And yes, you're right that it takes ambition for a club to step up.

But the pros of doing so have to be weighed against the cons. Look at Tralee Dynamoes, who were an existing club with ambition. They left the Kerry District League to join the A Championship, with views of stepping up to the First Division in due course. To do so meant changing their season from Sept-May to Mar-Oct. But after three years, the FAI scrapped the A Championship and refused Tralee's application to join the First Division. So Tralee had to rejoin the Kerry District League - but at the bottom, three divisions below where they had been, and change their season back to Sept-May, which meant (I think) that for eight months they had no games at all. It took them years to get back to where they had been.

Compare that with, say, Larne who in 2007/08 realised they were in above their level, but were able to just opt for relegation one level for the following season.

There's a huge difference between those two. The point of a proper pyramid is to encourage ambition. The LoI structure actively ****s over clubs who look to step up by removing their safety net back down if required, even to the extent of leaving them almost a whole year without a match, and setting the club back years. Why would a club risk that? And this is the point - you have to weigh the pros and the cons.

This has created the unfortunate position that local leagues are now a de facto height of ambition - being LSL champions means far more than it should do for example, and clubs are often happy to have just local ambitions. The LoI is a blind spot for them because of the risks going up there entails. So the structure here is so bad that it is now self-perpetuating.

But get rid of that fundamental barrier to ambition that exists in the LoI, and you will find plenty of clubs like H&W here. A lack of clubs is not the issue here; it's the lack of a structure to encourage ambition.
Fair enough, maybe I am underestimating both the problems posed by the structure in ROI and the number of clubs who could/would step up were that structure to be reformed.

But the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that it would be foolish to proceed with an AIL until the IL clubs up their game on-the-field and the LOI sorts its problems away from it.

Otherwise you're just building a house without even surveying the foundations to see if they'll support it. Which is worse still when your architect has never actually designed a house before and you've not even got an "in principle" mortgage offer from the bank, never mind cash in your account.

Meanwhile, you're rushing to get it built before the site has even been cleared, or the local authorities have granted planning permission.

Still, the architect's drawings look fine, so what could possibly go wrong?

[pineapple stu]

But the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that it would be foolish to proceed with an AIL until the IL clubs up their game on-the-field and the LOI sorts its problems away from it.
I think that's probably reasonable. I think there's almost too much focus on the top level of the LoI - partly because the FAI can claim easy kudos for "creating the environment" for the occasional European run - while the rest of the game is a disconnected shambles, and that's the big problem here.

How's promotion/relegation going to work from the LoI side for example? How do new clubs look to get onboard? If you look at the impact the pyramid had in England and Scotland when introduced, it immediately started strengthening the lower leagues (teams regularly picked up successive promotions in England for example). We could do with some of that here.

My main concern on an AIL - and now we're crossing threads - is that I just don't see (a) how an AIL will deliver a product worth €2m+ to investors annually and (b) how the AIL part of this seems to be specifically what's driving that value (as Lucid doesn't seem to want in on the LoI or the IL). It just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

And yes it's also why I like the KOTI idea, because that keeps the two separate leagues while trialling the idea in the middle. If it flops, then it's disbanded and never spoken of again (until next time). If it's a success, then you look to expand it in the knowledge that you now have a proven product.

[Martinho II]

I think that's probably reasonable. I think there's almost too much focus on the top level of the LoI - partly because the FAI can claim easy kudos for "creating the environment" for the occasional European run - while the rest of the game is a disconnected shambles, and that's the big problem here.

How's promotion/relegation going to work from the LoI side for example? How do new clubs look to get onboard? If you look at the impact the pyramid had in England and Scotland when introduced, it immediately started strengthening the lower leagues (teams regularly picked up successive promotions in England for example). We could do with some of that here.

My main concern on an AIL - and now we're crossing threads - is that I just don't see (a) how an AIL will deliver a product worth €2m+ to investors annually and (b) how the AIL part of this seems to be specifically what's driving that value (as Lucid doesn't seem to want in on the LoI or the IL). It just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

And yes it's also why I like the KOTI idea, because that keeps the two separate leagues while trialling the idea in the middle. If it flops, then it's disbanded and never spoken of again (until next time). If it's a success, then you look to expand it in the knowledge that you now have a proven product.

KOTI whats that?

[pineapple stu]

King of the Island. The holding name for the new Kieran Lucid suggestion.

[Charlie Darwin]

I am not in any position to contest your point that there is "no shortage" of clubs like Welders in ROI.

But if so, I can't help wondering why they're not already embracing senior status via the FD?
I'd imagine it's a lot easier to aim for senior football when your longest away trip is potentially 80 miles. There are clubs in the League of Ireland for whom that'd be among their shortest trips. It has a huge bearing on the viability of a football club.

[Charlie Darwin]

But maybe I didn't explain my point clearly. Which is that you can't just take the top 12 (14?) (16?) clubs from the IL and LOI and form them into an AIL, sit back and think "Job done".

You need a stable structure beneath the AIL to provide firm foundations, to provide proper Promotion and Relegation and keep the AIL fresh and competitive. Which means having care for the next-level clubs who will take the place in the "feeder" leagues of the clubs moving up to the AIL.

Otherwise you will just end up with the same situation as in the present LOI, which exists for the benefit of 8 or 10 clubs at best and "to hell with the rest". Which leads in turn to the shambles that is the FD, with the same stasis beneath that.
This is exactly right. The structure below the League of Ireland is a huge problem and, though geography is kinder in Northern Ireland, the lack of even a limited attempt at a pyramid in the Republic is embarrassing.

Any move towards an AIL would have to include some rationalisation of the various fiefdoms in amateur football. The Leinster Senior League is pretty much fully-formed and I think would be amenable to feeding into a pyramid in a limited way but any AIL would have to sort out nonsense like the biggest team in Letterkenny playing in a tiny Donegal league rather than facing comparable teams from across the border.

[GUFCghost]

Would this be the right place to ask what exactly happened to the A championship? Why didn't big intermediate clubs in the munster & leinster leagues get involved? Are any of the old clubs still interested in senior football? What kind of impact did the way Tralee Dynamos were treated have on the way LOI football is perceived in Kerry?

[pineapple stu]

Didn't the bigger clubs decide they didn't want the expense of it?

I imagine lack of ambition and a fear of what happened to Tralee happening to them stopped others jumping up. Just a guess though.

[DCSIL]

Lifted from Wikipedia:

In 2009 at the League of Ireland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Ireland) clubs' annual convention, Dundalk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dundalk_F.C.) called for the A Championship to be scrapped, arguing that it was putting an unwelcome financial burden on participating clubs. At the same convention Waterford United (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterford_United_F.C.) proposed that it should be optional rather than compulsory for senior sides to field a reserve team in the league. Drogheda United (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drogheda_United_F.C.) raised concerns about the "unacceptable level" of refereeing. According to a report in the Irish Independent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Independent) one club, short of two players for an away match, paid two locals to make up their team while a number of fixtures were postponed because clubs di not have enough players.[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Championship#cite_note-independent-18)

[Martinho II]

Didn't the bigger clubs decide they didn't want the expense of it?

I imagine lack of ambition and a fear of what happened to Tralee happening to them stopped others jumping up. Just a guess though.

Yeah think this was accelerated with the recession or something like that. Pity it had to go.

[EalingGreen]

As an illustration of the importance of having a proper pyramid beneath any top tier, see this article on Annagh United, who play in Portadown:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52879417

They were top of the Premier Intermediate League (3rd tier) and looking good for promotion to the Championship when the season was closed down:
https://www.nifootballleague.com/premier-intermediate/2019-2020/standings/

If/when they should go up, they could very possibly be replacing their near neighbours Portadown FC, who were top of the Championship themselves and favourites to go up to the Premiership in turn:
https://www.nifootballleague.com/championship/2019-2020/standings/

Where they'd be well positioned to take the place of a Premiership side who were elevated to an AIL (if not get there themselves some day).

Now I don't really know anything about Annagh myself, but they've certainly got a very tidy little set-up, including a plastic pitch which brings in good revenue:

https://www.footballgroundmap.com/data/photos/tandragee-park7134l.jpg

[DCSIL]

Knocked Glentoran out the league cup a couple of years back, When Alan Kernaghan was manager. He resigned a couple of days later if i remember rightly?

[EatYerGreens]

As an illustration of the importance of having a proper pyramid beneath any top tier, see this article on Annagh United, who play in Portadown:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52879417

They were top of the Premier Intermediate League (3rd tier) and looking good for promotion to the Championship when the season was closed down:
https://www.nifootballleague.com/premier-intermediate/2019-2020/standings/

If/when they should go up, they could very possibly be replacing their near neighbours Portadown FC, who were top of the Championship themselves and favourites to go up to the Premiership in turn:
https://www.nifootballleague.com/championship/2019-2020/standings/

Where they'd be well positioned to take the place of a Premiership side who were elevated to an AIL (if not get there themselves some day).

Now I don't really know anything about Annagh myself, but they've certainly got a very tidy little set-up, including a plastic pitch which brings in good revenue:

https://www.footballgroundmap.com/data/photos/tandragee-park7134l.jpg

Did you say a tidy or tiny little set up? ;)

[EalingGreen]

Did you say a tidy or tiny little set up? ;)I'll accept both.

Anyhow, the point is that despite being in the shadow of a bigger neighbour, they're not content to just get on with their reserves, academy and youth set-up etc, but are clearly ambitious to "up their game" across the board.

Which has got to be good for football generally, not just in the town, but across mid-Ulster generally.