Where might new clubs come from?

[Martinho II]

I'll accept both.

Anyhow, the point is that despite being in the shadow of a bigger neighbour, they're not content to just get on with their reserves, academy and youth set-up etc, but are clearly ambitious to "up their game" across the board.

Which has got to be good for football generally, not just in the town, but across mid-Ulster generally.

I imagine Annagh is a village team like Ballinamallard then or are they a rival to Portadown ie local derby?

[EalingGreen]

I imagine Annagh is a village team like Ballinamallard then or are they a rival to Portadown ie local derby?No, it'll never be a "derby" on equal terms etc - Portadown (population 22k) simply isn't big enough to support two big teams and besides, Ports' rivals will always be Glenavon.

Meanwhile Annagh are a good bit short of Ballinamallard, whose status belies the population of the village they play in.

The way I see it is that Annagh are a small team, but with a decent set-up and reasonable ambition. Should they realise that ambition, then they could make the step-up to being a "middling" team and as such, replace Portadown FC locally if/when the Ports ever get back to being a top tier team.

All of which would be healthy for football in that part of the Province.

That's all, really.

[Martinho II]

Im a bit confused EG regards Annagh do they have their own ground and how far from Portadown are they? Sorry about confusion but when I read the link about Annagh it mentioned Portadown?

[EalingGreen]

Im a bit confused EG regards Annagh do they have their own ground and how far from Portadown are they? Sorry about confusion but when I read the link about Annagh it mentioned Portadown?
Annagh United play in Portadown (town), with their ground being about a mile from Shamrock Park.

And Portadown FC sometimes use Annagh's plastic pitch for training.

Think of it like Liverpool (Ports) and Everton (Annagh), though somewhat scaled down! ;)

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/800/cpsprodpb/FCA8/production/_112608646_shamrockparkandannaghunited.jpg

P.S. There's a pic of Annagh's ground in my post #197

[Martinho II]

Annagh United play in Portadown (town), with their ground being about a mile from Shamrock Park.

And Portadown FC sometimes use Annagh's plastic pitch for training.

Think of it like Liverpool (Ports) and Everton (Annagh), though somewhat scaled down! ;)

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/800/cpsprodpb/FCA8/production/_112608646_shamrockparkandannaghunited.jpg

P.S. There's a pic of Annagh's ground in my post #197

Well explained Annagh yeah saw pict of ground previously on that post.

[Bucket]

Wexford!

[EatYerGreens]

Wexford!

Madness.

[joey B]

Wexford!

The way the tweet I seen about this was worded it appears if the new Wexford team gets a licence the old one won't be in the league!

[sidewayspasser]

Where is the sense in that?

[Mr A]

Do the FAI own Ferrycarrig or would a new entity play elsewhere?

[ForzaForth]

At the moment, Ferrycarrig Park is jointly owned by the FAI and the Wexford Football League, with the League reportedly interested in purchasing the share of the ground owned by the FAI. As a number of posters have rightly stated, it's all about getting hold of the one licence for Wexford and I can't see the grouping who gets the licence using any other ground than Ferrycarrig Park.

[Bucket]

Won't the new club need to find somewhere in town to play? Otherwise the crowds will continue to be fairly small. I know nothing of the football politics in Wexford.

[Longfordian]

Have the new group had any involvement with Wexford Youths/Wexford FC before?

[ForzaForth]

No names mentioned in the local Wexford press report this morning, perhaps understandably, so it's very hard to gauge the seriousness of the alternative project at this stage.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Unless it's based in the town I can't see it being any more successful than the current setup. And in the town off top of my head I can't think of any sites that would be able to accommodate being much more successful without a good bit of work being needed.

[EatYerGreens]

Unless it's based in the town I can't see it being any more successful than the current setup. And in the town off top of my head I can't think of any sites that would be able to accommodate being much more successful without a good bit of work being needed.

If only there was a politician for the area with a real passion for football who could help sort a stadium for an LOI club there.

[EatYerGreens]

No names mentioned in the local Wexford press report this morning, perhaps understandably, so it's very hard to gauge the seriousness of the alternative project at this stage.

Apparently it's the Judean People's Front?

[Bucket]

No, no, no, it's The People's Front of Judea

[Lim till i die]

There was a fella from Wexford firing money at Limerick for about eighteen months with a view to Paud going away before Paud folded up the tent.

If it's the same fella it's good news for Wexford

[nigel-harps1954]

Ferrycarraig Park could work for Wexford with a good bit of community effort. Buses out of the town would be a start for this new investor.

It's been said over and over again though, better access into Ferrycarraig from the main road would make life a whole lot easier.

[EalingGreen]

The way the tweet I seen about this was worded it appears if the new Wexford team gets a licence the old one won't be in the league!
How on earth could a brand new club in Wexford be considered for a league licence when the existing club is barely scraping by?

Surely new investors should be required to prove their credentials by buying (or at least buying into) the existing club and making something of it?

Unless their thinking is that if they set up a rival club, that will finish off the existing club, leaving the whole show to themselves.

Which may make sense from a purely selfish pov, but surely the LOI/FAI shouldn't be complicit in that sort of carry on i.e. messing about with the game in the town/county?

I know I've said similar before, and I'm really not looking to have a dig at anyone, but IL clubs looking towards an AIL should be very concerned by the maladministration of league football in ROI before staking their own future on it.

Or at least wait to see whether the new regime at Abbotstown can sort things out before committing.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

How on earth could a brand new club in Wexford be considered for a league licence when the existing club is barely scraping by?

Surely new investors should be required to prove their credentials by buying (or at least buying into) the existing club and making something of it?

Unless their thinking is that if they set up a rival club, that will finish off the existing club, leaving the whole show to themselves.

Which may make sense from a purely selfish pov, but surely the LOI/FAI shouldn't be complicit in that sort of carry on i.e. messing about with the game in the town/county?

I know I've said similar before, and I'm really not looking to have a dig at anyone, but IL clubs looking towards an AIL should be very concerned by the maladministration of league football in ROI before staking their own future on it.

Or at least wait to see whether the new regime at Abbotstown can sort things out before committing.

It's essentially the exact same thing that has happened throughout the history of football. It's the entire basis of many derbies Inter vs AC being the most notable.
People don't like how their local team is being run so set up an opposition club to compete with them that's what happens, it's nothing unique to LOI nor a stick to bash anyone with.

[EalingGreen]

It's essentially the exact same thing that has happened throughout the history of football. It's the entire basis of many derbies Inter vs AC being the most notable.
People don't like how their local team is being run so set up an opposition club to compete with them that's what happens, it's nothing unique to LOI nor a stick to bash anyone with.
Except that when you don't like an existing club, and so set up a new one in competition, you don't act like a cuckoo, oust the other chicks and take their place in the nest.

Rather you should be expected to start at the bottom of the pyramid and work your way up to your proper level.

You know, like eg AFC Wimbledon or FC United of Manchester are having to do.

Alternatively, you could buy a local club and have a go from whatever level they were already at. You know, like eg those Man U guys did with Salford FC.

Either way, it requires new guys to prove they know what they're doing before they are let loose on senior football.

And if they're not prepared to do that, then let them buy, or buy into, the existing club, as happens the world over.

Of course, we all know there's no pyramid in the LOI, but the answer is to sort that out, rather than just throwing existing licences into the air and hoping they land right way up.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Except that when you don't like an existing club, and so set up a new one in competition, you don't act like a cuckoo, oust the other chicks and take their place in the nest.

Rather you should be expected to start at the bottom of the pyramid and work your way up to your proper level.

You know, like eg AFC Wimbledon or FC United of Manchester are having to do.

Alternatively, you could buy a local club and have a go from whatever level they were already at. You know, like eg those Man U guys did with Salford FC.

Either way, it requires new guys to prove they know what they're doing before they are let loose on senior football.

And if they're not prepared to do that, then let them buy, or buy into, the existing club, as happens the world over.

Of course, we all know there's no pyramid in the LOI, but the answer is to sort that out, rather than just throwing existing licences into the air and hoping they land right way up.

Let's get a couple of things straight.
This new club aren't looking to out Wexford FC, people are assuming there won't be more than one club given a licence in Wexford which is probably true but the new club aren't looking to oust them.

They are starting at the equivalent level of FC United and Wimbledon. The lowest level of senior football, just happens in Ireland we only have 2 divisions and not the 9-11 they have in England. Do you actually know how the levels work in football?

To buy local is one option but its not an option when your issue with the original club is its governance.

The prove they're capable is the whole point of licensing, if they're deemed to be going about it all in the proper way they'll get a licence, if not they won't, its really that simple.

[Ezeikial]

. It's the entire basis of many derbies Inter vs AC being the most notable.



people are assuming there won't be more than one club given a licence in Wexford which is probably true

.


Damn it, my hopes are dashed.

I was really looking forward to the Associazione Calcio Wexford V Internazionale Wexford derby

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Death, Taxes, Ez being selectively obtuse

[Bucket]

There are already some ridiculous names in Ireland. Real Tubber and Dynamo Blues are two that come to mind

[Martinho II]

Ferrycarraig Park could work for Wexford with a good bit of community effort. Buses out of the town would be a start for this new investor.

It's been said over and over again though, better access into Ferrycarraig from the main road would make life a whole lot easier.

I know that we tried this temporarily over 20 years ago and there wasnt much uptake on it. I did take it up when I used to socialise before matches that season but it didnt last for long at all. Mind you club didnt try hard enough to advertise it. Have to agree with you on Ferrycarraig the amount of times I got lost on junction and missing the turn after it before ground from E.corthy making wrong turn!

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Ferrycarraig Park could work for Wexford with a good bit of community effort. Buses out of the town would be a start for this new investor.

It's been said over and over again though, better access into Ferrycarraig from the main road would make life a whole lot easier.

I can't see buses helping much, better than not doing them at all of course but I think having the ground in the town is more about being in peoples minds. Out of sight out of mind is very much a thing for smaller clubs (which is every club in the LOI).

It's cliche but the old thing of kids walking/driving by and asking their parents what that is and then asking can they go when their parents say it's a football ground is an underrated tool for getting people through the gates.
Then your teenagers aren't gonna want to get on a bus to a game cause it wouldn't be cool and that's the age you either get a fan for life or lose them.
Plus the obvious need for pints, want to be able to come and go at convenience, etc, think a ground in the town for LOI clubs is essential where possible.

[Ezeikial]

Death, Taxes, Ez being selectively obtuse

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ac/f6/66/acf6665b74bbf26216cc9a0828c92db8.jpg

[EalingGreen]

Let's get a couple of things straight.
This new club aren't looking to out Wexford FC, people are assuming there won't be more than one club given a licence in Wexford which is probably true but the new club aren't looking to oust them.

From the local press (which admittedly doesn't seem to know more than anyone else):
"It also remains to be seen if the League of Ireland would be willing to grant a licence to a 2nd Co.Wexford based team. This is unlikely. Therefore if this new group were to put forward a proposal for a new club, it is likely a battle would ensue to secure a licence between the existing club and the new group."
https://wexfordtoday.com/2020/06/22/wexford-soccer-at-a-crossroads/

Anyhow, there will either be two licences awarded to Wexford or there won't.

If it's the former, then good luck with the town supporting two senior clubs:
("[Wexford FC have] an average league attendance of approximately 100 people per game") apparently.

And if it's the latter, then this new crowd would have to get it if they're to join the LOI.

Personally I can't figure out which is the sillier.



They are starting at the equivalent level of FC United and Wimbledon. The lowest level of senior football, just happens in Ireland we only have 2 divisions and not the 9-11 they have in England. Do you actually know how the levels work in football?

No they're not and yes I do.

The equivalent would be if AFC Wimbledon or FC United of Manchester were parachuted into League Two of the EFL i.e. the lowest tier of senior football. They weren't.

AFCW had to work their way up through the feeder leagues with five promotions before they even got to the lowest level of senior football.

And after four promotions of their own, FCUM were still another two short of senior football (the EFL), before they fell back a level.



To buy local is one option but its not an option when your issue with the original club is its governance.

So just because someone cannot enter the system by any of the conventional routes, then you invent another one just for them?



The prove they're capable is the whole point of licensing, if they're deemed to be going about it all in the proper way they'll get a licence, if not they won't, its really that simple.
How does saying:"We've got a bit of money and we want to invent a new club in a town which is struggling to support the existing one, so can we have their licence please?" "prove" anything?

Other than the inadequacy of the licencing system.

Or has no-one learned from previous disasters, of which there have been more than one or two?

[RathfarnhamHoop]

No they're not and yes I do.

The equivalent would be if AFC Wimbledon or FC United of Manchester were parachuted into League Two of the EFL i.e. the lowest tier of senior football. They weren't.

AFCW had to work their way up through the feeder leagues with five promotions before they even got to the lowest level of senior football.

And after four promotions of their own, FCUM were still another two short of senior football (the EFL), before they fell back a level.

In the English system their equivalent of senior football carries all the way down the leagues to step 7.
What you're getting confused by is the fact its called Football league and non league which is purely a historical reason because until the 80s there wasn't an official connection between the two and they still had elections to decide who went down/came up.
They are now all joined up and the historical names have stuck in general use but every step is considered "Senior" football.



So just because someone cannot enter the system by any of the conventional routes, then you invent another one just for them?

It's the lowest rug of the ladder connected to the main national league, exact same process as in England.



How does saying:"We've got a bit of money and we want to invent a new club in a town which is struggling to support the existing one, so can we have their licence please?" "prove" anything?

Other than the inadequacy of the licencing system.

Or has no-one learned from previous disasters, of which there have been more than one or two?

It's not a case of we have money, licencing involves submission of a business plan effectively, just because the licencing hasn't been done properly in the past doesn't mean that what needs to be submitted isn't there.

[EalingGreen]

In the English system their equivalent of senior football carries all the way down the leagues to step 7.
What you're getting confused by is the fact its called Football league and non league which is purely a historical reason because until the 80s there wasn't an official connection between the two and they still had elections to decide who went down/came up.
They are now all joined up and the historical names have stuck in general use but every step is considered "Senior" football.
AFCW had to enter at the 9th tier and FCUM at the 10th.



It's the lowest rug of the ladder connected to the main national league, exact same process as in England.
There are 11 officially defined levels of football with Promotion and Relegation up and down in the pyramid in England, with (literally) dozens more leagues/levels below them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_football_league_system

AFCW and FCUM entered at the highest level which would accept them i.e. they were barred from entering even the higher levels of non-league, never mind the EFL.



It's not a case of we have money, licencing involves submission of a business plan effectively, just because the licencing hasn't been done properly in the past doesn't mean that what needs to be submitted isn't there.As Eric Morecambe used to say: "You can't argue with that..."

[RathfarnhamHoop]

AFCW had to enter at the 9th tier and FCUM at the 10th.

There are 11 officially defined levels of football with Promotion and Relegation up and down in the pyramid in England, with (literally) dozens more leagues/levels below them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_football_league_system

AFCW and FCUM entered at the highest level which would accept them i.e. they were barred from entering even the higher levels of non-league, never mind the EFL.

As Eric Morecambe used to say: "You can't argue with that..."

The leagues below that do not have automatic promotion/ relegation to the first step which is why they're not included in the steps. They're the equivalent of the LSL, MSL, etc.

Both AFC Wimbledon and FC United joined the ladder at the lovest rug for their area. (AFC Wimbledon joined the same year the league expanded but were placed into the existing division in the restructuring so really if anything they disprove your theory because they essentially skipped a league over existing clubs who had demonstrated their ability to run themselves previously.

[EatYerGreens]

AFCW had to enter at the 9th tier and FCUM at the 10th.

Whilst I don't think references to clubs in England has any real relevance to this discussion, to be clear on what happened these clubs.

They didn't HAVE to join at those levels. Rather those were the levels that agreed to have them. Had they persuaded any league further up the non-league pyramid to accept them, then they would have gone in at a different level. Wimbledon in particular were annoyed not to get accepted into the Isthmian League and so had to start at the Combined Counties level instead. I suspect had the Isthmian taken the new club more seriously, and its ability to draw fans, then they would have accepted them in from the start.

[EatYerGreens]

The leagues below that do not have automatic promotion/ relegation to the first step which is why they're not included in the steps. They're the equivalent of the LSL, MSL, etc.

Both AFC Wimbledon and FC United joined the ladder at the lovest rug for their area. (AFC Wimbledon joined the same year the league expanded but were placed into the existing division in the restructuring so really if anything they disprove your theory because they essentially skipped a league over existing clubs who had demonstrated their ability to run themselves previously.

Sorry, but this isn't accurate either. WFC and FCUM didn't join at the lowest rung for their area. The football pyramid in London/Surrey in particular has significantly more rungs below where AFC joined. Rather they went in at the highest level which was persuaded to have them. It's that simple. Hence they both started at different tiers, not at the same standard. Start a club yourself in southwest London and see how much luck you have trying to enter the pyramid at Level 9 :)

Though again, those 2 clubs are NOT in any way relevant to the situation in Ireland.

[EatYerGreens]

Can I just advose a wee bit of caution on this whole Wexford thing.

It's not unusual to hear someone claiming that they're going to have club X or Y enter the LOI. Admittedly it is unusual to have it in a small town where there is already an existing LOI club, but I think the general point still stands that it's best to treat such claims with a pinch of salt until something more substantial comes of it. Otherwise we'd probably have a league twice as big as it is now with all the talk there's been over the years.

[Bucket]

Does anyone know what the intermediate leagues opinions are on a pyramid structure or has the FAI ever tried to implement one?

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Sorry, but this isn't accurate either. WFC and FCUM didn't join at the lowest rung for their area. The football pyramid in London/Surrey in particular has significantly more rungs below where AFC joined. Rather they went in at the highest level which was persuaded to have them. It's that simple. Hence they both started at different tiers, not at the same standard. Start a club yourself in southwest London and see how much luck you have trying to enter the pyramid at Level 9 :)

Though again, those 2 clubs are NOT in any way relevant to the situation in Ireland.

They went in at the lowest level in so far as that the leagues below aren't actually connected to it they're feeder leagues and clubs are elected up a league if they with rather than promoted.
Obviously normally leagues have licencing criteria that can block a promotion the "application" for promotion is still automatically processed while for election to a league things are a bit different. That's what I mean by lowest rug on the ladder.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Does anyone know what the intermediate leagues opinions are on a pyramid structure or has the FAI ever tried to implement one?

All the clubs big enough to make a jump like being a big fish in a small pond and will do anything to protect that while other clubs aren't big enough to be bothered

[nigel-harps1954]

Does anyone know what the intermediate leagues opinions are on a pyramid structure or has the FAI ever tried to implement one?

In simple terms, the intermediate teams don't want it.

[Bucket]

Fair enough. One more if you don't mind, is it possible to be promoted from junior to intermediate on the pitch or is it just a case of applying for a place in an intermediate league?

[Martinho II]

In simple terms, the intermediate teams don't want it.

Yeah there seems to be more power with non loi teams in FAI board level than with loi teams hence JDs famous saying "problem child" He was getting sweetners from ie LSL,MSL.
As regards wexford scenario is it entirely possible that there could be an amalgamation of Wexford FC and Wexford League into the one loi team with each sector having their own individual share?
The only reason I am suggesting this is that I was looking at an old Longford Town Drogheda Utd programme from 2004 and and it said in Droghedas list of honours:

1975
In 1975 Drogheda F.C. amalgamated with Drogheda United to form Drogheda United F.C. and the 1975–76 season saw an improvement in fortunes on the field as they finished sixth in the league and they also reached the FAI Cup Final for the second time, this time losing 1–0 to Bohemians.

Source:
Drogheda United F.C. - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org › wiki › Drogheda_United_F.C.

[Martinho II]

but interestingly I came across this gem:

History
1919–1975: Early years
Founded in 1919 the original Drogheda United were a non-league club for all of their early years of existence but on Saturday 22 June 1963 another Drogheda Club – Drogheda F.C. (founded in 1962) were elected to the League of Ireland when the league was expanded to include twelve teams rather than ten. In their first season there they finished tenth and also in each of the next three seasons finished in the bottom three. In the 1967–68 season they achieved a respectable fifth-place finish and the following season finished in sixth place. When the league expanded to include fourteen teams the club dropped down the table again finishing in the bottom five in each of the next six seasons and also recording their heaviest league defeat 8–1 to Cork Hibernians in the 1970–71 season. They did, however, get to FAI Cup final that season where they were beaten 3–0 by Limerick in a replay after the first match ended 00..

Obviously with Drogheda Utd scenario its a completely different scenario to now! It will be interesting to see what happens. Or is it possible that MW wants to wind up this wexford fc cos of tax issues and wants an new entity like a few seasons back!

The mind boggles thats for sure!

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Fair enough. One more if you don't mind, is it possible to be promoted from junior to intermediate on the pitch or is it just a case of applying for a place in an intermediate league?

The normal way of going from junior to intermediate would be by being promoted. For LSL that's going from Major Sunday to Senior 1B (I think) Sunday.

To be honest the whole football system in Ireland needs a complete restructuring. Too many leagues all using the same names to define different things.

[EatYerGreens]

They went in at the lowest level in so far as that the leagues below aren't actually connected to it they're feeder leagues and clubs are elected up a league if they with rather than promoted.
Obviously normally leagues have licencing criteria that can block a promotion the "application" for promotion is still automatically processed while for election to a league things are a bit different. That's what I mean by lowest rug on the ladder.

That's just not true either I'm afraid. The football pyramid in England goes down to a crazily low level with interconnected tiers.

For example AFC Wimbledon started off in the Combined Counties Premier Division. The level below that is the Combined Counties First Division. Funnily enough there is promotion and relegation between those 2 leagues, as they're administered by the same body. The Combined Counties First is then fed into from the Tier 11 leagues within its area e.g. the Surrey League, Middlesex League, Thames Valley etc. They're al inter-linked.

Not trying to be mean here, but the confidence with which you're making these assertions is genuinely impressive considering they're just not based on fact.

[EatYerGreens]

All the clubs big enough to make a jump like being a big fish in a small pond and will do anything to protect that while other clubs aren't big enough to be bothered

There's is an unfathomable parochialism within Irish society and psyche in my view. The GAA understood this perfectly and hence set itself up on a model based more on parishes rather than actual places. In turn that GAA system helps reinforce that parochialism within Irish life.

The whole idea that it doesn't matter how well your club is doing, so long as you're better off than and beating the club next door. When in reality you'd all be much better if you joined together to take on others. So long as you walk into a room and feel like a giant amongst pygmies, then all's well in the world.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

That's just not true either I'm afraid. The football pyramid in England goes down to a crazily low level with interconnected tiers.

For example AFC Wimbledon started off in the Combined Counties Premier Division. The level below that is the Combined Counties First Division. Funnily enough there is promotion and relegation between those 2 leagues, as they're administered by the same body. The Combined Counties First is then fed into from the Tier 11 leagues within its area e.g. the Surrey League, Middlesex League, Thames Valley etc. They're al inter-linked.

Not trying to be mean here, but the confidence with which you're making these assertions is genuinely impressive considering they're just not based on fact.

Read back what I said. They joined the year that the combined counties league expanded to two divisions. The season before they joined there was only one but they added the second division on.
The 02-03 season they had 24 teams, one team dropped out and they decided to expand when 19 teams applied to join in their place. They chose one of those 19 to replace the one that dropped out due to the lack of a division directly connected below. That team was AFC Wimbledon as their application was the strongest.

They're inter linked in the way that the LSL is interlinked to the LOI, in theory the strongest team is encouraged to apply but any team actually can apply. They're called feeder leagues in the same sense you have feeder clubs so that the parent league/club can approach or offer for members of the feeder league/club to join but there's no obligation on either side to do so. Whereas with relegation and promotion there is an obligation to set out how many will go up or down before the season begins.

Essentially how that division one works is a committee sits down around the end of the season and looks at all the applications to be in the league the next season, they'll have teams in the league currently, new entities, clubs from the feeder leagues and clubs looking to transfer from other leagues where borders maybe cross over. One year they might relegate nobody but accept 6 new teams another they might relegate promote one. There's no consistency because its all done by application not by set promotions and relegations

[nigel-harps1954]

Fair enough. One more if you don't mind, is it possible to be promoted from junior to intermediate on the pitch or is it just a case of applying for a place in an intermediate league?


The normal way of going from junior to intermediate would be by being promoted. For LSL that's going from Major Sunday to Senior 1B (I think) Sunday.

To be honest the whole football system in Ireland needs a complete restructuring. Too many leagues all using the same names to define different things.

All depends entirely on the league. There is no promotion into Ulster Senior League, it's entirely elective, and from what I'm aware, there's none into the Munster either.

[cobhlad]

All depends entirely on the league. There is no promotion into Ulster Senior League, it's entirely elective, and from what I'm aware, there's none into the Munster either.

Munster Senior League has three intermediate divisions, Premier, First and Second. Entry into the Second is only allowable on application, either from Cork’s AUL League (quite a popular move in recent years, three clubs already doing it this summer), or from the Munster Senior League Junior Divisions, if the club is not already active at intermediate (rarely happens, if anything clubs use this in the opposite way to drop down when struggling).

Most of the MSL Junior clubs are all second teams so hence no direct link of promotion/relegation between the Junior Premier and Senior Second.