Where might new clubs come from?

[pineapple stu]

Not only do we not have a history of a pyramid, we have our own way of doing things entirely.
The AIL is a pyramid. The national hurling and football leagues are a pyramid. This idea of "We have our own way of doing things" doesn't stack up when our own way is so patently crap. Look at the messing with Treaty/Shamrock Rovers II for a recent example.


UCD in the premier isn't hard to imagine, but it is embarrassing.
Ah would you stop. The Premier is no more marketable since Shels were replaced us in 2020. Lots of countries have small clubs from the capital in their leagues - lots of players to go around. If you want to be embarrassed at a club, I'd point you a lot closer to home, and ask how a city like Galway can't sustain a Premier side, despite flashing the cash/DVDs/whatever else is in vogue.

[legendz]

UCD in the premier isn't hard to imagine, but it is embarrassing. A team of university students playing at the highest level isn't a good luck, and the fact they've developed no support after years in the league is shocking. Potential sponsors don't want to be associated with a league featuring a university vs a tiny suburb in a rugby ground with no proper spectator facilities


Ah would you stop. The Premier is no more marketable since Shels were replaced us in 2020. Lots of countries have small clubs from the capital in their leagues - lots of players to go around. If you want to be embarrassed at a club, I'd point you a lot closer to home, and ask how a city like Galway can't sustain a Premier side, despite flashing the cash/DVDs/whatever else is in vogue.

UCD are well established as part of the League of Ireland.

Would it be viable to have a Third Level League of Ireland? It could be the level for U23 players at third level education not contracted to LoI clubs.

[pineapple stu]

Strategic thinking wouldn't be your strong point, would it?

There already is a colleges league. What'd be the point in creating a new competition of pretty much exactly the same thing?

[sullanefc]

The AIL is a pyramid. The national hurling and football leagues are a pyramid. This idea of "We have our own way of doing things" doesn't stack up when our own way is so patently crap. Look at the messing with Treaty/Shamrock Rovers II for a recent example.




The AIL?? LOL. Professional Rugby in this country is the provinces in the Pro 14. If it was a true pyramid system then Cork Con/Garryowen/Lansdowne could be promoted to the pro 14. They can't. Professional Rugby here is a Provincial Franchise model.

The national hurling and football leagues are not pyramids. Can Nemo Rangers or Na Fianna or Thomas Davis get promoted to the intercounty leagues No. The intercounty comps are franchises.

MLS and the A league are franchises. A lot of successful sports leagues including football leagues are franchise models.

In fact, English football has a unique culrure that is not replicated anywhere in the world. We cannot emulate their football culture as much as we would like to. Their lower league teams have very healthy attendances. Premier league teams wanted to enter B teams in the football league like they do in Spain and Germany and there was revolt from the fooball league clubs.

I wouldn't be in favour of a UK style pyramid structure as you would end up with the farce of Galway, Mervue and Salthill in the 1st division again. Certain areas can only support just one LOI club. Another Galway scenario would lead to fan bases and player pools getting diluted.

I'd be in favour of B teams and new teams (franchises from areas with no LOI representation) playing in a regionalised 3rd tier. I wouldn't even have a problem with them being in the second tier.

Now I know there isn't a queue of new clubs looking to join, but it needs to be made more attractive.

[EatYerGreens]

When I term it as the "FAI's Plan", it has to come from the Executive. And their job is to get things through.

Don't believe that the IFA hasn't been hindered by small-time provincialism (literally!) just as much as the FAI. But they're managing to get round this, for instance Stormont/Sports Council telling them eg that the Board had to be reduced in numbers, with term limits, while non-Executive Director outsiders were to be appointed to reflect diversity and equality etc:
https://www.irishfa.com/news/2021/march/irish-fa-board-welcomes-three-new-members-following-council-meeting
Otherwise the money would be cut off.

Of course it's by no means perfect (big understatement!), but they are managing to get things done improving/re-organising the pyramid, right down from Senior to Junior football, via Intermediate.

Important to note that FIFA neither noticed nor cared when Stormont basically dictated what size and shape the IFA's top structures should take. So much for no political 'interference'.

[pineapple stu]

The AIL?? LOL. Professional Rugby in this country is the provinces in the Pro 14. If it was a true pyramid system then Cork Con/Garryowen/Lansdowne could be promoted to the pro 14. They can't. Professional Rugby here is a Provincial Franchise model.

The national hurling and football leagues are not pyramids. Can Nemo Rangers or Na Fianna or Thomas Davis get promoted to the intercounty leagues No. The intercounty comps are franchises.
True, but the point remains that pyramids aren't unknown in either sport. Club/county aren't the same thing - you might as well argue that there's no pyramid in England because Liverpool can't be promoted to the World Cup - but within club/county, there are pyramids. The Pro 14 isn't an option for the LoI, so the real comparison is the AIL, which is a pyramid.


MLS and the A league are franchises. A lot of successful sports leagues including football leagues are franchise models.
And a lot of successful sports leagues including almost every football league in Europe operates a pyramid. The LoI is effectively a franchise model and it works terribly. Tralee and Cobh refused admittance for no reason? Limerick kicked out because John Delaney didn't like the owner? Cabinteely parachuted in six weeks before the new season with no history of a senior team and no ground? Shamrock Rovers II kicked out because sure it's Limerick's turn to have a team again now? Feck that.


In fact, English football has a unique culrure that is not replicated anywhere in the world. We cannot emulate their football culture as much as we would like to. Their lower league teams have very healthy attendances. Premier league teams wanted to enter B teams in the football league like they do in Spain and Germany and there was revolt from the fooball league clubs.
Not sure what the relevance of this is? No-one's expecting a third-tier LSL would draw 1,500 average crowds or something.


I wouldn't be in favour of a UK style pyramid structure as you would end up with the farce of Galway, Mervue and Salthill in the 1st division again. Certain areas can only support just one LOI club.
If Galway can only support one club, then a proper pyramid will reflect that. Mervue and Salthill spent most of their LoI existence fighting relegation that was barely an option for the most part. (In fact, effectively neither team won promotion - they just replaced Cobh and Kildare, who went bust - and then Salthill were bottom of the FD for each of their four years in it without ever being relegated, which is ridiculous)

[sullanefc]

True, but the point remains that pyramids aren't unknown in either sport. Club/county aren't the same thing, but within club/county, there are pyramids. The Pro 14 isn't an option for the LoI, so the real comparison is the AIL, which is a pyramid.

If the LOI ends up like AIL rugby and if that is the height of our ambition then we are really goosed. Same with the GAA comparison. We should strive for intercounty levels of support, not local club levels.



almost every football league in Europe operates a pyramid.

"Almost". Some don't. It doesn't mean we should.



The LoI is effectively a franchise model and it works terribly. Tralee and Cobh refused admittance for no reason? Limerick kicked out because John Delaney didn't like the owner? Cabinteely parachuted in six weeks before the new season with no history of a senior team and no ground? Shamrock Rovers II kicked out because sure it's Limerick's turn to have a team again now? Feck that.

All that says to me is that the FAI have made a complete balls of running the league here. The model can work IMO, if someone with a brain sat down and planned for growing the appeal for new clubs to join and helped and supported new clubs like Tralee etc. John Delaney is gone too, so the new guy might be better in this regard.



Not sure what the relevance of this is? No-one's expecting a third-tier LSL would draw 1,500 average crowds or something.

Of course not. My point is that 1st division clubs were against having B teams in the division. Fellow Cork City fans were horrified of the prospect of having to play Shamrock II. I wouldn't have a problem with it. When Cork City were in the premier, I thought we should have had a B team/u23 team in the league. The MSL won't let us join their league. The only downside is the cost. Registration and travel. If the registration could be waived and the league made regional then it might be a runner.

But some people here think like we are England and are dead against B teams in the lower leagues. Newsflash, and I've said it already, we are not England and never will be like them in terms of football culture.



If Galway can only support one club, then a proper pyramid will reflect that. Mervue and Salthill spent most of their LoI existence fighting relegation that was barely an option for the most part. (In fact, effectively neither team won promotion - they just replaced Cobh and Kildare, who went bust - and then Salthill were bottom of the FD for each of their four years in it without ever being relegated, which is ridiculous)
All fair enough. But iirc, the presense of those two clubs weakened Galway in terms of fans and players. What would a second Donegal club do to Finn Harps? Or a second Waterford or Cork club in those cities. I don't think it would be helpful for the league.

[legendz]

There already is a colleges league. What'd be the point in creating a new competition of pretty much exactly the same thing?
Do you have a link to the league table?

[wonder88]

Salthill and Mervue being in the LoI did not reduce the number of fans going to watch Galway Utd. People stayed away other factors maybe, but not to go and support the other 2 clubs.
It might reduce the level of sponsorship available ag match/match ball level for the leading club, but it wouldn't be a significant sum.
Connection and an identity with a club is what matters and not where they are located.

[pineapple stu]

If the LOI ends up like AIL rugby and if that is the height of our ambition then we are really goosed. Same with the GAA comparison. We should strive for intercounty levels of support, not local club levels.
But your GAA comparison is invalid because you're comparing the equivalent of international and club football. Pro 14 isn't an option in football, so the AIL structure comparison does challenge the original point that we don't know what a pyramid is in this country. That doesn't mean I expect top matches in front of crowds of 200 or whatever the AIL gets.


"Almost". Some don't. It doesn't mean we should.
Yeah, it does though. Pretty much the only exception is us. I've shown why it's bad (and there's another example coming up). You've not given any reasons for your view, or why it trumps the view of the FAI's High Performance Director.


The model can work IMO, if someone with a brain sat down and planned for growing the appeal for new clubs to join and helped and supported new clubs like Tralee etc.
But that was how Dublin City, Sporting Fingal, Kildare County, Kilkenny City, Monaghan United, etc came into the league. How did that work out? Kildare County in particular is a very good example of everything that's wrong with the current setup - the existing Newbridge Town were so worried about it all going wrong and having no way of backing out without losing their place in the LSL that they created a whole new entity to join the LoI. A new entity with no history, no momentum, no nothing. It did well for a couple of years and then died a death.


Of course not. My point is that 1st division clubs were against having B teams in the division.
OK, though none of that has anything to do with my point?


All fair enough. But iirc, the presense of those two clubs weakened Galway in terms of fans and players.
You might recall Galway went bankrupt and dropped out of the league all on their owney-oh. Appointing Nick Leeson as CEO really wasn't a smart move. Galway have no-one to blame but themselves for being appallingly run.

[pineapple stu]

Do you have a link to the league table?
Nope, but here's the list of who won what (https://www.fai.ie/domestic/news/rustlers-third-level-season-review) in 2019/20.

[sullanefc]

But your GAA comparison is invalid because you're comparing the equivalent of international and club football. Pro 14 isn't an option in football, so the AIL structure comparison does challenge the original point that we don't know what a pyramid is in this country. That doesn't mean I expect top matches in front of crowds of 200 or whatever the AIL gets.


Yeah, it does though. Pretty much the only exception is us. I've shown why it's bad (and there's another example coming up). You've not given any reasons for your view, or why it trumps the view of the FAI's High Performance Director.


But that was how Dublin City, Sporting Fingal, Kildare County, Kilkenny City, Monaghan United, etc came into the league. How did that work out? Kildare County in particular is a very good example of everything that's wrong with the current setup - the existing Newbridge Town were so worried about it all going wrong and having no way of backing out without losing their place in the LSL that they created a whole new entity to join the LoI. A new entity with no history, no momentum, no nothing. It did well for a couple of years and then died a death.


OK, though none of that has anything to do with my point?


You might recall Galway went bankrupt and dropped out of the league all on their owney-oh. Appointing Nick Leeson as CEO really wasn't a smart move. Galway have no-one to blame but themselves for being appallingly run.

I disagree.

[pineapple stu]

Good argument there anyway

[legendz]

Kildare County in particular is a very good example of everything that's wrong with the current setup - the existing Newbridge Town were so worried about it all going wrong and having no way of backing out without losing their place in the LSL that they created a whole new entity to join the LoI. A new entity with no history, no momentum, no nothing. It did well for a couple of years and then died a death.
Good example alright. Magic-ing up a club isn't the solution.
I see Kildare are at U17 level. At least that is a reasonable way to build.
Is the League Cup to resume? At the very least, Kerry, Cavan-Monaghan, Carlow-Kilkenny and Kildare should have a representative side in that, as Kerry League have done in the past.

[sullanefc]

Good argument there anyway
Not here for an argument. I doubt anything I could say could change your mind. Just giving my opinion in favour of the franchise model. God forbid we'd all agree with the pyramid system.

[pineapple stu]

A rational argument could certainly change my mind. You haven't given any. You've just said "Yerrah, it's always been the way" and mumbled something about Mervue and Salthill.

[sullanefc]

A rational argument could certainly change my mind. You haven't given any. You've just said "Yerrah, it's always been the way" and mumbled something about Mervue and Salthill.
I'm sensing needless hostility. I gave my opinion, replied to a post, you want more arguments, I couldn't be @rsed. Good evening.

[pineapple stu]

No hostility. I just think dismissing a detailed post engaging with your points with "I disagree" is poor form really.

But look, you won't be changed, and ultimately what happens here won't have any impact on real life, so...

[CorribsideSteve]

But your GAA comparison is invalid because you're comparing the equivalent of international and club football. Pro 14 isn't an option in football, so the AIL structure comparison does challenge the original point that we don't know what a pyramid is in this country. That doesn't mean I expect top matches in front of crowds of 200 or whatever the AIL gets.


Yeah, it does though. Pretty much the only exception is us. I've shown why it's bad (and there's another example coming up). You've not given any reasons for your view, or why it trumps the view of the FAI's High Performance Director.


But that was how Dublin City, Sporting Fingal, Kildare County, Kilkenny City, Monaghan United, etc came into the league. How did that work out? Kildare County in particular is a very good example of everything that's wrong with the current setup - the existing Newbridge Town were so worried about it all going wrong and having no way of backing out without losing their place in the LSL that they created a whole new entity to join the LoI. A new entity with no history, no momentum, no nothing. It did well for a couple of years and then died a death.


OK, though none of that has anything to do with my point?


You might recall Galway went bankrupt and dropped out of the league all on their owney-oh. Appointing Nick Leeson as CEO really wasn't a smart move. Galway have no-one to blame but themselves for being appallingly run.

That was Galway's version of ****ing everything away Celtic Tiger style. As Wonder88 pinted out, there are other factors for the lack of interest, with the chief one being Connacht. There's always a 4K + crowd at the Sportsground, or used to be in normal times. Rugby got really well developed into a multi-million pound slick package in the last 20 years, precisely while the entire LOI was flailing around helplessly, and got left behind, and Galway's a microcosm of that. Terryland is a walk-in freezer, all year round too, but I'm not sure what they could do to fix that issue. I've seen Terryland full, maybe 8 times, but Connacht almost always sell out. If Galway were winning the League they'd still only get crowds of 1,500

[GUFCghost]

If Kildare County had kept their old name it wouldn't have saved them supporters. No one was turned off supporting the club because they identified as Newbridge Athletic fans, because Newbridge Athletic had no fans. When Galway were elected to the league in the 70s they changed their name from Claddagh Rovers, it didn't turn anyone off and it's allowed the club to essentially operate as they county franchise ever since. Similarly if you go way back Dundalk changed their name from GNR shortly after joining and I'm sure you'd find other examples.

If anything Kildare County had the right idea, I'm sure Tralee Dynamos wish they did the same thing!

[sullanefc]

New(ish) club here...

https://twitter.com/LimerickFCie/status/1428694300800524292?s=19

[GUFCghost]

New(ish) club here...

https://twitter.com/LimerickFCie/status/1428694300800524292?s=19

Much like the Americans saw their history echo in the last helicopter out of Kabul being so much like the last helicopter out of Saigon, we now see the Galway crisis due to be replayed in Limerick

[GUFCghost]

https://www.extratime.com/articles/27931/ciaran-kilduff-im-sure-kildare-has-the-appetite-for-league-of-ireland-football/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
"Due to issues surrounding club licensing, Maynooth University Town were unable to apply for a First Division license for the 2021 season.

extratime.com understands that the club explored the option of joining the League of Ireland when the FAI invited expressions of interest to join the senior ranks. But their lack of stadium facilities put pay to that ambition, for now at least."

Seems like a stupid reason when you consider where Cabo are playing

[legendz]

Anyone it seems can explore an interest in joining the First Division. The journalist used it as a seed to grow a story!
Kildare are at U17 level. The youth leagues should be where potential new clubs build their foundation.

[pineapple stu]

Seems like a stupid reason when you consider where Cabo are playing
Agree alright. The ambiguity around how to join the league can't really help in terms of teams wanting to join it. Tralee and Cobh both applied in 2012 but were declined for (so far as I can see) no particular reason. Like, why would you bother when the FAI just make up the rules as they go along?

(I agree there should be facilities requirements in place obviously. But Cabo can't have more than Maynooth, and the rules should be consistent)

[Philosophizer]

Having played for Maynooth Uni I can tell you there is no fan facilities whatsoever. Great player facilities in terms of full size astro for training, full gym, indoor 5/7 a side halls and lots of nice changing rooms etc, but nothing for supporters. Not even a perimeter rope around the pitch... Nothing! When we played matches there would often be students standing right on the touchline watching. At the town grounds they've a few pitches with a perimeter fence and changing rooms and that's it I believe.

[GUFCghost]

I remember Kildare County had a tidy little ground, was it in the middle of nowhere?
Maybe they were denied a license based on the way it would compromise Klub Kildare? (A truly terrible name)
If a LOI club needs 5 youth teams and a stadium, I can't see anyway Kildare or any county could build a team without clubs collaborating

[Philosophizer]

Kildare played in a couple of spots I think. I know they had grounds in Newbridge and also the curragh camp

[Nesta99]

Station Rd was a nice wee ground especially with the temporary seating in. Any excuse to throw this vid up too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6JgJjHv4y8

[pineapple stu]

I remember Kildare County had a tidy little ground, was it in the middle of nowhere?
Twas a 5-minute walk from Kildare train station in fairness to them (hence Station Road)

You'd wonder why Maynooth even applied if they don't have any perimeter fencing. (Were they being silly, or just testing the waters, or had the FAI done stuff in previous years to indicate that a fudge might be an option?)

Isn't perimeter fencing a requirement for Intermediate football? I thought Junior football was the parks stuff?

[Philosophizer]

They do have a fence around the pitch at Maynooth town's ground. It's the Uni pitch that has no fence. Maynooth University Town is a merger of the university team and the Maynooth town senior team.
I guess they'd need to just erect some kind of a stand at either pitch in order to get into LOI.
In terms of their training facilities they'd put most LOI clubs to shame tho. They've even used Carton house pitches in the past for scholarship trials and training etc. That's where Real Madrid among others have based themselves before so Maynooth is very well stocked with plenty of top class training facilities and gyms etc. If they can just get a stand sorted...

[pineapple stu]

Do the merged team play at Maynooth Town's ground or the university's pitch?

[nigel-harps1954]

They played their cup game against Cobh in Baldonnell

[Philosophizer]

They play at Maynooth town's ground. That's where they beat Cobh on Saturday.

[Philosophizer]

They played their cup game against Cobh in Baldonnell
Maybe I stand corrected. Livescore told me it was at Rathcoffey road ground, which is Maynooth town's place.

[Mr A]

Extratime has Baldonnell. My dream draw is a spin back to Maynooth so I was annoyed to see it isn't a possibility https://www.extratime.com/matches/detail/44105/2/

[pineapple stu]

Wonder is LOITV a reason for that? Non-league Cup ties have been moved all over the shop this year (eg Liffey Wanderers playing Cobh in the UCD Bowl)

[EalingGreen]

Maybe I stand corrected. Livescore told me it was at Rathcoffey road ground, which is Maynooth town's place.
Though two years ago they played Waterford in the Cup at Rathcoffey Road:

https://www.maynoothtownfc.ie/img/screenshot-2019-10-16-at-21.56.09.png

They appear to have excellent playing facilities there, but little or nothing by way of a "stadium".

https://www.maynoothtownfc.ie/

[pineapple stu]

You did - Philosophiser had me confused with the separate Maynooth Town/Maynooth University pitches.

[oldfan]

I think they played this years 1st Round in the Uni pitch.

[Philosophizer]

This is pure speculation but if there's ever going to be a stand built in Maynooth, you'd imagine the uni ground would be a more likely location. Universities would have easier access to funding for facilities and the likes.

[GUFCghost]

How are the non-league teams that qualify for the FAI cup determined?

[Burnsie]

How are the non-league teams that qualify for the FAI cup determined?

Eight quarter-finalists of the FAI INtermediate Cup, plus four semi-finalists from the FAI Junior.

As it happens the vast majority who got through this year were from the Leinster Senior League

[DCWA]

Station Rd was a nice wee ground especially with the temporary seating in. Any excuse to throw this vid up too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6JgJjHv4y8

Hahaha the background music in that, almost gospel choir like… wtf

[EatYerGreens]

If they can just get a stand sorted...

And some supporters to fill it.

[EatYerGreens]

This is pure speculation but if there's ever going to be a stand built in Maynooth, you'd imagine the uni ground would be a more likely location. Universities would have easier access to funding for facilities and the likes.

Though less chance of developing a fanbase.

Is there anywhere else in Western Europe where students have less of an emotional connection to their university than Ireland (for both current and past students) ? The whole going home every weekend thing etc etc. UCD has a nice little ground on a big campus with a large captive audience on its doorstep, and has played some decent football and big games over the years, but has never been able to develop a crowd. I suspect Maynooth uni would be even worse in that regard, as it's much smaller.

[pineapple stu]

I suppose they'd be banking on tapping into the Maynooth Town aspect of the merger there as well.

[Philosophizer]

All fair points. They'd never realistically have much of a fanbase no matter where a stand is built, if they ever build one. If they joined the league I'd imagine their attendences would be similar to ucd or Cabo. The population of the town is small, only 15K. But their team has been decent since the merger and the uni started offering football scholarships, as has been proven by their results in recent years.

[Philosophizer]

And the Maynooth town ground isn't even in the town. It's a bit outside the town, a 25-30 min walk from the main street.

[EatYerGreens]

I suppose they'd be banking on tapping into the Maynooth Town aspect of the merger there as well.

But how likely is that when you've got university in your name and if you were playing at the campus ?