Group D - opponent watch!

[tetsujin1979]

We get worried about our back four. Christ, those poor Scots don't have much to choose from in that department. Only two of the eight defenders are in the PL.
FWIW I think we've a better midfield and defence, they've better goalkeepers and the strikers are about even, apart from Robbie Keane
Incidentally, McGregor was on loan at Notts County last season and had a similar record to Grealish while he was there

[Stuttgart88]

I think credit where it's due, Scotland have got some very good results in the last year and as AB rightly says, they are further in their evolution as a team under Strachan than we are under MON. But if they can get results like they have with a squad like that - albeit missing Brown, Snodgrass and maybe some others - there really is no reason to think that we can't string a run of results together. Yer man Robertson looked particularly vulnerable for Hull yesterday.

[Stuttgart88]

They have potentially 3 better keepers though.
Yeah, but they can only play one of them :)

[Stuttgart88]

Ok, who'd get in a combined Ireland / Scotland team?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Their keeper(s)...

[tetsujin1979]

Ok, who'd get in a combined Ireland / Scotland team?
hmmm, good question


Scotland Ireland Combined Omitted
Rob Elliott(Newcastle FC)
Goalkeepers Name Stephen Kelly(Reading FC)
Craig Gordon (Celtic) David Forde(Millwall FC) Craig Gordon (Celtic) Shane Duffy(Everton FC)
David Marshall (Cardiff City) Keiren Westwood(Sheffield Wednesday)David Marshall (Cardiff City) Alex Pearce(Reading FC)
Alan McGregor (Hull City) Darren Randolph(Birmingham City FC) David Forde(Millwall FC) Darron Gibson(Everton FC)
James McClean(Wigan FC)
Defenders
Christophe Berra (Ipswich Town) Richard Keogh(Derby County FC) Seamus Coleman(Everton FC)
Craig Forsyth (Derby County) Marc Wilson(Stoke City FC) John O’Shea(Sunderland AFC)
Gordon Greer (Brighton and Hove Albion) Seamus Coleman(Everton FC) Marc Wilson(Stoke City FC)
Grant Hanley (Blackburn Rovers) John O’Shea(Sunderland AFC) Joey O’Brien(West Ham FC)
Alan Hutton (Aston Villa) Stephen Ward(Burnley FC) Christophe Berra (Ipswich Town)
Russell Martin (Norwich City) Paul McShane(Hull City) Paul McShane(Hull City)
Andrew Robertson (Hull City) Damien Delaney(Crystal Palace FC) Richard Keogh(Derby County FC)
Steven Whittaker (Norwich City) Joey O’Brien(West Ham FC) Damien Delaney(Crystal Palace FC)

Midfielders
Ikechi Anya (Watford) James McCarthy(Everton FC) James McCarthy(Everton FC)
Barry Bannan (Crystal Palace) Jeff Hendrick(Derby County FC) Jeff Hendrick(Derby County FC)
Craig Bryson (Derby County) Ciaran Clark(Aston Villa FC) Glenn Whelan(Stoke City FC)
Chris Burke (Nottingham Forest) Glenn Whelan(Stoke City FC) Aiden McGeady(Everton FC)
Graham Dorrans (West Bromwich Albion) Andy Reid(Nottingham Forest FC) David Meyler(Hull City FC)
Darren Fletcher (Manchester United) Aiden McGeady(Everton FC) Wes Hoolahan(Norwich City FC)
Shaun Maloney (Wigan Athletic) Anthony Pilkington(Cardiff City) Darren Fletcher (Manchester United)
James McArthur (Wigan Athletic) Robbie Brady(Hull City FC) Graham Dorrans (West Bromwich Albion)
Kevin McDonald (Wolverhampton Wanderers) Stephen Quinn(Hull City FC) Charlie Mulgrew (Celtic)
Callum McGregor (Celtic) David Meyler(Hull City FC) Shaun Maloney (Wigan Athletic)
James Morrison (West Bromwich Albion) Wes Hoolahan(Norwich City FC) James McArthur (Wigan Athletic)
Charlie Mulgrew (Celtic) Andy Reid(Nottingham Forest FC)

Forwards
Steven Fletcher (Sunderland) Robbie Keane(LA Galaxy FC) Robbie Keane(LA Galaxy FC)
Chris Martin (Derby County) Shane Long(Southampton FC) Shane Long(Southampton FC)
Steven Naismith (Everton) Daryl Murphy(Ipswich Town FC) Steven Fletcher (Sunderland)
Jon Walters(Stoke City FC) Steven Naismith (Everton)
Kevin Doyle(Wolves) Anthony Stokes(Celtic FC)
Anthony Stokes(Celtic FC)
Simon Cox(Reading FC)

[Olé Olé]

They have potentially 3 better keepers though.

That's true. Marshall was impressive last season and has been over-looked by Scotland quite frequently during his career. I remember him and Rab Douglas on those great Champions League nights under Martin O'Neill.

Still though, Forde doesn't make too many c*ck-ups and pulls off a decent share of good saves. Difficult to quantify how much better off we'd be if we had Marshall between the sticks instead of Forde.

Is it fair to say that Coleman is the best player out of the two squads? James McCarthy is next, in my opinion. I'd be hard-pressed to pick the third. Robbie Keane has had a career that everyone on the two squads could be enviable of (no jokes about money and childhood dreams now, please and thanks).

[Stuttgart88]

Sorry Tets, I'm not sure I can read that extract properly. Is there a selection in there or just a long list of names?!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Marshall was one of the best keepers in the EPL last season, amazed he's still at Cardiff. Plus Gordon/McGregor are probably both better than Forde et al.

Elsewhere it looks a lot more equal.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Scotland's 26 man squad announced for their opener against Germany: http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_fa_news.cfm?page=2986&newsID=13643&newsCategoryID=1
Strangely enough, no McCormack/Rhodes who're comparable to what we have...
:(

[Charlie Darwin]

Strangely enough, no McCormack/Rhodes who're comparable to what we have...
:(
Eh? We have lots of Championship strikers. We have also have a few strikers who are a lot better.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Really? McCormack just went for 11 million, nearly as daft a price as Long and Rhodes is one of the hottest properties outside the EPL...

No-one says that about Cox, Doyle or Murphy.

[Charlie Darwin]

Yes, McCormack just moved for £11 million to a club dead last in the Championship, who have scored two goals all season, neither of which came from him. Rhodes isn't one of the hottest properties at all, he has one team that are interested in him and are only looking at him because they stupidly sold their best striker and are now panicking and likely to pay well over the odds. The player he's replacing, mind you... We have lots of players who will score goals in the Championship, it's not something we need to be jealous of Scotland for having.

[Olé Olé]

McCormack for 11 million was an exponentially dafter price than Long, IMO.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

More Scottish players scored in the last round of matches than Irish players did combined since the start of the season. Craig Bryson scored more than any Irish striker last season. Jordan Rhodes, Ross McCormack and Chris Martin all score goals for fun at that level. Only Murphy comes close for us.

Last season may turn out to be an anomaly for McCormack but he has been playing out of position under Magath.

[Stuttgart88]

I think McCormack is a good player and I like Maloney. Both have a bit of class, like Reid and Hoolahan. We also have Brady and McGeady. I like James MacArthur too. Apart from their keepers I don't really see anyone who's a cut above what we have but I think a few of ours have something over and above what they have. For example, I reckon Stokes would a certainty for their squad. His position in ours is precarious.

I think McCormack was bought by a club that genuinely thought they'd be in the mix for a quick promotion and was bought as a proven upper end championship performer. Was 11m that daft in that context? Fulham have some nice EPL parachute instalments due.

[Charlie Darwin]

Bryson is 27 and last season was the first time he's scored more than 6 goals in his career. McCormack is 28 and has had three exceptional, non-consecutive seasons but again apart from those years he hasn't broken 5 goals in a season. Martin, again, one exceptional season and never broke 7 outside that. Rhodes has a very good record and is the only one who can say he's consistently done it at that level. They're good players but the amount of respect they get from some people you'd expect them to be world-beaters.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

I don't think anybody is calling them world beaters.

Scottish fans probably look at some of our players and think we overhype them. Most Derby fans would probably have Craig Bryson in the team ahead of Jeff Hendrick. Kris Commons, a midfielder, is a more proficient scorer than Anthony Stokes at SPL level. Wes Hoolahan and Andy Reid are 32 and not judged good enough to play at PL level. Steven Fletcher and Steven Naismith score more frequently than Shane Long in the PL. We don't have any LB's coming through. They have several. The young talent in the SPL (Gauld) are more exciting prospects than what's coming through in the Irish league (Forrester, Towell); even Brian Lenihan is 20 years old already and on the verge of a move to the Championship. Ironically, if Scotland had McCarthy and McGeady, that would probably be enough to make them stronger than us.

Seamus Coleman is probably our highest rated player but he had problems fitness and form wise before he exploded last season, and even then he was patchy towards the end of the season.

IMO we are neck and neck with Scotland. The one part of their team that is noticeably weaker than ours is their defence but we are a couple of injuries away from having Ward, Keogh and McShane in the team. The injury to Snodgrass is a very positive development but this is balanced by the return to action of Darren Fletcher. We cannot rest on our laurels in that regard anyway as we have several injury prone players/playing with injections.

I believe our inability/Scotland's ability to beat big teams could cost us. Fair enough Scotland drop points against the smaller nations, but I think that they will be more clinical under Strachan, as the memories of the Levein era slowly dissipate in the murky highland fog.

Our performances against smaller nations have been steadily decreasing in quality, in any event.

[Charlie Darwin]

I said the way they're talked about you'd expect them to be brilliant when the reality is they have a few players who all happened to have very good seasons at the same time.

Most Derby fans would have Bryson in instead of Hendrick? Maybe that's why they're not the coach. Commons ahead of Stokes, so what? How many caps does Stokes have? From what I've heard from Celtic fans nobody would be too upset if Commons was sold (but that might be why they're not the coach). Hoolahan had firm offers from several Premier League teams six months ago, he's easily judged good enough for the Premier League. Gauld and Robertson are absolutely huge talents, but if we had full time football here we'd be the match of them. Lenihan will need 6 months to a year to reach the physical level required of a professional player, something Scottish players don't have to worry about.

I think we're roughly at the same level as Scotland too, but my problem is with the idea they have better options than us anywhere outside of between the sticks.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

I said the way they're talked about you'd expect them to be brilliant when the reality is they have a few players who all happened to have very good seasons at the same time.

Most Derby fans would have Bryson in instead of Hendrick? Maybe that's why they're not the coach. Commons ahead of Stokes, so what? How many caps does Stokes have? From what I've heard from Celtic fans nobody would be too upset if Commons was sold (but that might be why they're not the coach). Hoolahan had firm offers from several Premier League teams six months ago, he's easily judged good enough for the Premier League. Gauld and Robertson are absolutely huge talents, but if we had full time football here we'd be the match of them. Lenihan will need 6 months to a year to reach the physical level required of a professional player, something Scottish players don't have to worry about.

I think we're roughly at the same level as Scotland too, but my problem is with the idea they have better options than us anywhere outside of between the sticks.

Derby fans opinions about Craig Bryson carry as much weight as our/Villa fans opinions about Jack Grealish and you have used their opinions to defend Richard Keogh in the past. Personally I would rate Hendrick above the likes of players like Bryson and McArthur - and he is younger - but there has been concrete interest in Bryson and McArthur from the PL while interest in Hendrick has never went beyond paper talk. Important, too, to note that Hendrick's form and fitness suffered before he won his place in the team back at the tail end of last season.

Commons hasn't made a splash for Scotland since declaring but you could say the same about Stokes.... Meyler... Hendrick really. Even Hoolahan's International career has only got going.

[Stuttgart88]

Hasn't Commons retired from international selection?

I think our forwards are better than their defenders and our first choice defenders are better than their forwards, though Naismith worries me.

What they have that I quite envy is momentum. What I suspect they have that we don't is balance, mainly down to the simple fact that we don't have a natural overlapping left back who can defend decently.

[DeLorean]

Most Derby fans would probably have Craig Bryson in the team ahead of Jeff Hendrick.


Derby fans opinions about Craig Bryson carry as much weight as our/Villa fans opinions about Jack Grealish

It's not necessarily their opinions though, it's just a wild conclusion you have jumped to.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Also how players play for their countries is often quite different to how they play for their clubs.

Look at the North;typically they have an awful team 'on paper', but sometimes get results. We have a better side in theory, but we have been (largely) underperforming for a while, especially at home, as we get too many draws in general.

We either don't score enough goals or can't close games out...just a thought, which will be surprised if that changes soon?

Let's hope MO'N et al, find a miracle cure...

[Charlie Darwin]

James McArthur on his way to Leicester.

[DeLorean]

Hasn't Commons retired from international selection?

Yes.


What they have that I quite envy is momentum.

Yeah this is my biggest fear. They are in a good place and we aren't really. Hopefully an unmerciful humiliation in Dortmund will dampen their spirits.

[Charlie Darwin]

Any team that can omit a powerhouse like Ross McCormack shouldn't have much trouble winning in Germany.

[Stuttgart88]

Yeah this is my biggest fear. They are in a good place and we aren't really. Hopefully an unmerciful humiliation in Dortmund will dampen their spirits.
3 wins, and good wins, from Oman, Georgia and Gib would give us that momentum. Do we have it in us?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Will take 3 wins of any sort in those next 3 games and anything <3 goals defeat in Germany...

But even then be surprised if that clear cut.

[zero]

3 wins, and good wins, from Oman, Georgia and Gib would give us that momentum. Do we have it in us?

i'd take any kind of win in georgia, but we should be taking care of the other two teams handily enough. gibraltar seem to have been punching above their weight since joining uefa officially but only 2 or 3 of their players are playing outside gibraltar.

georgia on the other hand have players playing in ukraine, russia, holland, belgium... they were competitive in their home games in the last campaign despite only picking up 4 points, beating belarus and drawing with france along with a couple of 0-1 reverses against finland and spain.

ketsbaia has been in charge 5 years now so he knows the ropes. i think it will be a very tough fixture.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Agreed...the Gib.theme park won't take many hammerings but 6 points is a must. Georgia no mugs and the rest we pretty much know about.

As per Trap can see 'better' results away from home, as in the usual draws perhaps, but it's so long since we regularly beat teams of a similar level in tight games at the new Lansdowne, am wondering if those days will ever return...

[Stuttgart88]

Yes, I wasn't saying that I expected a good win in Georgia. I'm not really fully expecting a win, more hoping for one, although I think it may be similar to Yerevan.

My point was that a good win in Georgia would give us the momentum that Scotland have picked up. If we won it well it'd show that we probably have finally got our act together.

[back of the net]

I agree with the Momentum factor big time

But i dont think no matter how many we put past Oman is signifigantly going to contribute towards us gaining Momentum due to them been so dire.

Ideally a win in Georgia and a scottish loss to Germany the same day , followed by a win at home to Gib - but i would be worried going into the Glasgow game on the back of another German hammering given to us a month beforehand

[ArdeeBhoy]

Think we're capable of individual good results, ie. 'plucky' goalless draws (esp. away from home), but sadly momentum seems to have left the building for good?
Hope I'm wrong, but don't see it changing soon enough even for the vital games next year, hopefully we'll have at least 6 points by the end of the year?

[Charlie Darwin]

Think we're capable of individual good results, ie. 'plucky' goalless draws (esp. away from home), but sadly momentum seems to have left the building for good?
Hope I'm wrong, but don't see it changing soon enough even for the vital games next year, hopefully we'll have at least 6 points by the end of the year?
We have the players to do well. We're not Celtic, pal.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Who've never played together. At least Celtic's have...

[Charlie Darwin]

Who's never played together?

[ArdeeBhoy]

MON's strongest team...
Doh!

[back of the net]

Who've never played together. At least Celtic's have...

But yet are so bad ....they manage to look like they never have

[ArdeeBhoy]

True, but due to continued player, er, 'apathy', so do Ireland. Or they would, had they ever played together...

[Stuttgart88]

Is it that big a deal if all eleven of O'Neill's hypothetical best team haven't played together? 7or 8 probably have and all of the players will have played with most of the others.

I'm not really that sold on your apathy argument either. I think we've moved on from the communications fiasco of the Trap era. I thought the Wilson brother wedding thing was soft, but some would argue that part of the problem is that players like Whelan always do turn up! I don't think the team resonates with the public like it used to, but I can think of a lot of factors other than apathy that can account for that.

[DannyInvincible]

Argentina beat Germany 4-2 tonight.

[jbyrne]

Argentina beat Germany 4-2 tonight.

think only 4 of the wc final team started though.
would be slightly concerned scotland might catch germany with a wc hangover and nick a point sunday. hopefully not

[Stuttgart88]

Maybe this game was good, in that Germany will have been shaken out of any complacency. They won't get caught cold twice in a week. I hope.

[DeLorean]

And Scotland don't have Di María. Snodgrass was the closest thing they had :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dD4prKcTAbo

[Stuttgart88]

I loved Argentina's second goal.

[DeLorean]

Some finish alright, could look very silly trying that.

[DeLorean]

Anybody know why Scotland (Wales & Northern Ireland) haven't had any friendly this week?

[paul_oshea]

The 4th goal was the best, great finish, lovely build up play, incisive final pass. It had it all.

[Stuttgart88]

Anybody know why Scotland (Wales & Northern Ireland) haven't had any friendly this week?
I presume they chose not to.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/sep/06/gordon-strachan-scotland-germany-euro-2016-qualifiers

Scotland optimistic.