A 7-team league First Division Next Year [Archive] - Page 3

Mr A

19/11/2013, 12:59 PM

The FAI is doing all it can to get teams in.

Except come up with a strategic plan to make the league a more sustainable and attractive place to be. It might not help this year, but maybe then we wouldn't have this debate every year.

The Genesis report on the league may have been a half arsed joke, but at least they had the interest to commission it and follow some of the recommendations. At this stage it feels like the FAI see the health of the league as essentially too lost a cause to tackle currently.

Dodge

19/11/2013, 1:32 PM

Are they really though? What are they doing to get teams into the league? Simply releasing a 'expressions of interest' statement isn't exactly helping clubs make the step up.

I know they've spoken to several clubs. The interest simply isn't there.

nigel-harps1954

19/11/2013, 1:44 PM

I know they've spoken to several clubs. The interest simply isn't there.

But that wasn't my question.

What are they doing to help the clubs? Once a club gets into the League of Ireland, what exactly does the FAI plan to do to help the club settle into the League, adjust financially, and cope with the massive step up?

Macy

19/11/2013, 1:52 PM

I know they've spoken to several clubs. The interest simply isn't there.
That could be anything from some chump in abbotstown, phoning some pal in an Intermediate or Junior club. Or it could mean a detailed discussion with the management committee of a club, with the FAI committing to helping the club to step up, providing supports (financial and/or expertise) etc etc. Given the lack of effort to keep clubs already in the league from going (some stories I've heard are shocking if true), I'd be guessing it's more the former than the later.

galwayhoop

19/11/2013, 2:15 PM

But that wasn't my question.

What are they doing to help the clubs? Once a club gets into the League of Ireland, what exactly does the FAI plan to do to help the club settle into the League, adjust financially, and cope with the massive step up?

What can they do while maintaining sporting integrity? They can't just hand them money to survive.

They gave the recent additions (Salthill & Mervue) serious leeway on licensing thereby reducing the cost involved in stepping up. Neither were able to grow any substantial following and therefore would never grow past the level they reached.

Granted Mervue reached a playoff but in reality they would never come close to anything other than cannon fodder if they got up due to the financial limitations of being a club with no fans.

Both of those clubs earned their place in the league on merit and are excellently run local clubs. And that's the main point, local clubs can only ever attract a finite amount of support or commercial interest. Any junior or intermediate club would be crazy to enter the LOI at this stage. It is a loss making activity for all clubs, even (particularly??) established clubs, bar one or two extreme examples.

I'm beginning to think that the only way new teams will enter the league is if they are manufactured. Amalgamated from numerous entities in areas with a high population density. The first of which is currently being spawned in Galway.

Time will tell whether the various factions have the appetite to see it through to it being successful. But in the short term I certainly don't see any clubs making the massive commitment to enter what is well and truly a graveyard division with close on no exposure for sponsors or clubs. It's financial suicide.

SeanDrog

19/11/2013, 2:23 PM

The fai could cover ref fees, cover insurance for clubs, provide club loans and overdraft (at a reduced rate compared to banks ), provide centralised back office like finance IT and legal for clubs.

Centralised buying of kits /balls/ steward jackets etc etc.

Just a few ideas off the top if my head. Effectively act like a Co-op for the clubs.

Or some clubs could (IMO should) come together in a Co-op structure to at least reduce costs by sharing resources and increasing their buying power to decrease costs .

nigel-harps1954

19/11/2013, 2:26 PM

I'm not talking about financial assistance. There's many other factors to running a successful club besides finances.

SeanDrog

19/11/2013, 2:27 PM

I'm not talking about financial assistance. There's many other factors to running a successful club besides finances.

Fair enough

galwayhoop

19/11/2013, 2:30 PM

I'm not talking about financial assistance. There's many other factors to running a successful club besides finances.
Such as?

What do you think they could (realistically) do to attract a junior or intermediate side jump from local football to league of ireland next March?

fitzpatrick10

19/11/2013, 2:46 PM

7 teams, its already a joke having to play everyone 4 times !!

Fai dont give a fcuk about the first division..

nigel-harps1954

19/11/2013, 2:56 PM

Such as?

What do you think they could (realistically) do to attract a junior or intermediate side jump from local football to league of ireland next March?

Greater exposure. If a club is genuinely ambitious enough, surely they should be looking at League of Ireland level.

There's already many clubs right across the country that claim to be better than League of Ireland clubs. This is their chance to show it.

FAI need to provide assistance though, in ways such as appointing an advisor to them, to work alongside their board in the day to day running of a club. They only need to report once a week to make sure they're on the right track. As said before, relaxing licensing for a year or two to get the clubs up to speed should also be done.

FAI don't really need to be spending much to attract new clubs to the league, but they need to be doing more than simply asking "Do you want to join the league?, no? Okay then."

Dodge

19/11/2013, 3:58 PM

Greater exposure. If a club is genuinely ambitious enough, surely they should be looking at League of Ireland level.

There's already many clubs right across the country that claim to be better than League of Ireland clubs. This is their chance to show it.

Most of these clubs are quite happy not to have their sham claim exposed. Seriously, look at how little impact ANY new entrant into the LOI has had in recent years. They're happy to live in their own little bubble.

FAI need to provide assistance though, in ways such as appointing an advisor to them, to work alongside their board in the day to day running of a club. They only need to report once a week to make sure they're on the right track. As said before, relaxing licensing for a year or two to get the clubs up to speed should also be done.

And what happens if the clubs don't get up to standard? Kick them out for not being able to get the licence?

FAI don't really need to be spending much to attract new clubs to the league, but they need to be doing more than simply asking "Do you want to join the league?, no? Okay then."

It's a tough sell when clubs already in the league do nothing but **** and moan about it.

I'm coming accross pro FAI and anti-new clubs here. That's really not the case. I just think anyone who believes there's any kind of market for new LOI clubs is deluded. Most of the bigger junior/intermediate clubs actively despise the LOI. They'll have seen what happened Kildare/Newbridge, Salthill, Mervue etc too

eitoof

19/11/2013, 4:14 PM

Are Wexford 100% on board for next year?
A six team league would be utterly laughable so hope so.

nigel-harps1954

19/11/2013, 4:16 PM

Most of these clubs are quite happy not to have their sham claim exposed. Seriously, look at how little impact ANY new entrant into the LOI has had in recent years. They're happy to live in their own little bubble.

Therein shows a distinct lack of ambition. I'm talking about clubs who may actually have a realistic ambition. There certainly has to be at least two or three clubs in this whole country who fancy a crack at it.

And what happens if the clubs don't get up to standard? Kick them out for not being able to get the licence?

Precisely. If any club, new or current don't pass licensing, they simply should not be allowed to compete. It'll soon give clubs a kick up the hole to sort themselves out and we might see an altogether healthier league.

It's a tough sell when clubs already in the league do nothing but **** and moan about it.

I'm coming accross pro FAI and anti-new clubs here. That's really not the case. I just think anyone who believes there's any kind of market for new LOI clubs is deluded. Most of the bigger junior/intermediate clubs actively despise the LOI. They'll have seen what happened Kildare/Newbridge, Salthill, Mervue etc too

I understand exactly where you're coming from, don't get me wrong. I'm not completely deluded, and I do believe many clubs would be crazy under the current FAI regime to join the league. But realistic ambitions should see clubs want to make the step up eventually. The FAI should be looking to help clubs and help the league as a whole strengthen further.
You'd have to imagine, non league clubs in the likes of England and continental leagues all hazard ambitions to climb as high up their respective ladders as they can. The mentality in Ireland is simply to be the big name locally and be happy with it. It's ridiculous.

A face

19/11/2013, 4:21 PM

Are we going to have this every year? The FAI is doing all it can to get teams in. They can't FORCE teams to join the league.

I disagree with this but i agree with you're main point. I would like to see them looking at this in the long term, as opposed to firefighting, trying to make up the numbers. And i'd add to that by saying they should be looking at a regional A Championship as well as the first.

Dodge

19/11/2013, 4:30 PM

Therein shows a distinct lack of ambition. I'm talking about clubs who may actually have a realistic ambition. There certainly has to be at least two or three clubs in this whole country who fancy a crack at it.

Go on then, name them.

Precisely. If any club, new or current don't pass licensing, they simply should not be allowed to compete. It'll soon give clubs a kick up the hole to sort themselves out and we might see an altogether healthier league.
Or you're back to 6/7/8 clubs.

You'd have to imagine, non league clubs in the likes of England and continental leagues all hazard ambitions to climb as high up their respective ladders as they can. The mentality in Ireland is simply to be the big name locally and be happy with it. It's ridiculous.

Its ridiculous but it's absolutely the fact we have to deal with.

nigel-harps1954

19/11/2013, 4:35 PM

Go on then, name them.

Silly request Dodge. You know exactly what I meant.

Or you're back to 6/7/8 clubs.

Or you've a stricter league. Clubs are better run. League is better run. More enjoyment for everyone.

Its ridiculous but it's absolutely the fact we have to deal with.

This may be exactly what's wrong. Why should we deal with it? Why shouldn't we be trying to fix it?

Mr A

19/11/2013, 4:52 PM

Maybe there should be such clubs, but currently there's nothing to indicate that there is.

citybone

19/11/2013, 5:29 PM

Except come up with a strategic plan to make the league a more sustainable and attractive place to be. It might not help this year, but maybe then we wouldn't have this debate every year.

The Genesis report on the league may have been a half arsed joke, but at least they had the interest to commission it and follow some of the recommendations. At this stage it feels like the FAI see the health of the league as essentially too lost a cause to tackle currently.
The Genesis report suggested 10 + 10 league structure. Don't have that many clubs right now so 10 + 9 would be good although it would be 2015 before that could be implemented. Maybe one club might join if there are some better clubs coming in eg. Bray, Boh's. Would suck for Boh's and Bray but might help the league structure in general at least in the short run. When/if the amount of clubs expands to 24 we could go to a 12 + 12 league structure but need to help the First division now before we go to 18 teams or less.

galwayhoop

19/11/2013, 9:28 PM

Silly request Dodge. You know exactly what I meant.

Not being funny Nigel but can you name any?

And if you can find one who have ambitions of playing LOI then ask the following questions:
Do they have reasonable sized support?
Could their support grow enough to allow them to increase their budget over time?
Are their facilities up to scratch to host league of ireland games?
Are they located in an area where there isn't already an established LOI club?

Salthill and Mervue are two clubs who had the ambition but were unable to overcome the hurdles outlined above that would make them sustainable.

Your argument is a bit like saying if everyone in Ireland gave me a euro I'd be a multi millionaire. You will really have to come up with a name here because as someone who is very familiar with junior football I honestly don't think there is.

Added to that the best junior and intermediate teams have regular success, if they took the step up they would struggle to be competitive never mind enjoy success. The novelty would wear very thin very quick. As stated above most local clubs enjoy the thought that they are good enough but would never dare try to be.

Sam_Heggy

19/11/2013, 9:31 PM

The Genesis report suggested 10 + 10 league structure. Don't have that many clubs right now so 10 + 9 would be good although it would be 2015 before that could be implemented. Maybe one club might join if there are some better clubs coming in eg. Bray, Boh's. Would suck for Boh's and Bray but might help the league structure in general at least in the short run. When/if the amount of clubs expands to 24 we could go to a 12 + 12 league structure but need to help the First division now before we go to 18 teams or less.

19 team league this season, top 10 form 2015 Premier Division, bottom 9 form 2015 First Division. Simples.

Dodge

20/11/2013, 9:37 AM

Silly request Dodge. You know exactly what I meant.

It is no more silly then saying we should bring these mythical clubs into the LOI. You can deal in theses all you like. If you can't name any club that would have a strong enough base (facilities, finances, local support) to join the league of Ireland, then that says it all

This may be exactly what's wrong. Why should we deal with it? Why shouldn't we be trying to fix it?

We should be. But again, you can't force teams to step up and you're VERY unlikely to get one of them to do it for 2014 (which is the point of this thread)

A face

20/11/2013, 10:33 AM

It is no more silly then saying we should bring these mythical clubs into the LOI. You can deal in theses all you like. If you can't name any club that would have a strong enough base (facilities, finances, local support) to join the league of Ireland, then that says it all

But there have to be a good few that fit the bill, and i don't know all of the clubs who are in a position to make the step up. Off the top of my head .... Mullingar, population, finances afaik, and facilities i dont know. Look at any town in Ireland with 40,000+ population that doesn't have a team in LOI. I agree its gonna be hard to get teams to step up this year so i think that FAI need to identify clubs who aren't far off the mark and work with them to see if they can make the step up with a bit of work. A regionalised A Championship should be the aim to make it easier for clubs to make the step up and build.

90% of the problem is that clubs dont have a clear pathway as regards competition and development to eventually get to the point where they are ready to make the step up.

Dodge

20/11/2013, 10:58 AM

Mullingar aren't in the top 4 division of the Leinster Senior League and you want them in the LOI?

These are the teams that played in the A Championship as Non league teams (and haven't been in the LOI)

Castlebar Celtic - 2009/10
Fanad Utd - 2011
Carlow 2009-11
Tralee Dynamoes - 2009/10
Tullamore Town - 2008-10

So even of those teams, most pulled out before the final season.

A face

20/11/2013, 11:08 AM

Mullingar aren't in the top 4 division of the Leinster Senior League and you want them in the LOI?

Fair enough, i was just suggesting them given the population in the area.

These are the teams that played in the A Championship as Non league teams (and haven't been in the LOI)

Castlebar Celtic - 2009/10
Fanad Utd - 2011
Carlow 2009-11
Tralee Dynamoes - 2009/10
Tullamore Town - 2008-10

So even of those teams, most pulled out before the final season.

Carlow or Tralee seem to be the most feasible of them (i would have thought anyway). Yeah, its gonna be tough this season alright but jebus they need to start looking at this strategically and work with clubs to see where they are and where they can be.

nigel-harps1954

20/11/2013, 11:10 AM

I don't know junior and intermediate clubs well enough down the country to know who would be in any shape to make the step up. As A Face said though, there's towns like Mullingar, Castlebar, Cavan, Ennis, Portlaoise, Clonmel, Tralee and Killarney that are all plenty big enough to sustain a League of Ireland club.

I'm simply saying, hypothetically speaking, there should be a club in some of the bigger towns in Ireland that have realistic ambitions of becoming as big a club as they can be.

I'm not saying we should force anyone into the League, and I've not even hinted at that prospect, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing that up Dodge.

In an ideal world, the FAI would just swallow pride and go with a one tier league for one season and give prospective clubs a full year to prepare for League of Ireland football while assisting them along the way and bringing them up to scratch both with infrastructural and financial advice, rather than waiting until September/October for 'expressions of interest'.

Tralee Dynamos had a genuine interest last season and were shot down. How we could be doing with them now. Similarly we had interest from Carlow and Fanad, who would be handy to have around now, as much as I'd not be a huge fan of letting someone like Fanad into the League.

The aim simply has to be the resurgence of the A Championship. The best thing Irish football has probably ever produced, was scrapped for no apparent reason.

Also, galwayhoop, Mervue and Salthill simply aren't a good argument. A project of pet boys in the FAI that went wrong. Nobody ever expected them to be successful, or build a fanbase. They're part of a whole different conversation, as well you know. You simply can't compare them to a team coming in from somewhere fresh.

nigel-harps1954

20/11/2013, 11:12 AM

Mullingar aren't in the top 4 division of the Leinster Senior League and you want them in the LOI?

What should it matter if they are top of their league or not, if they have potential to grow as a club?

A face

20/11/2013, 11:22 AM

I don't know junior and intermediate clubs well enough down the country to know who would be in any shape to make the step up. As A Face said though, there's towns like Mullingar, Castlebar, Cavan, Ennis, Portlaoise, Clonmel, Tralee and Killarney that are all plenty big enough to sustain a League of Ireland club.

I'm simply saying, hypothetically speaking, there should be a club in some of the bigger towns in Ireland that have realistic ambitions of becoming as big a club as they can be.

That's it .... If they are viable then they have a chance of doing well, and THAT could be great for football in this country.

The aim simply has to be the resurgence of the A Championship. The best thing Irish football has probably ever produced, was scrapped for no apparent reason.

What actually was the reason? Did they get bored of it? Seriously? I cant think of a reason for it at all. If need be they should have expanded and regionalised it ..... It was something that they ran themselves and could control FFS. I just don't get it.

Also, galwayhoop, Mervue and Salthill simply aren't a good argument. A project of pet boys in the FAI that went wrong. Nobody ever expected them to be successful, or build a fanbase. They're part of a whole different conversation, as well you know. You simply can't compare them to a team coming in from somewhere fresh.

Agreed with this, Mervue and Salthill are not the yardstick and even if they are i can only imagine there are other clubs far better placed to enter the league, willingness is another argument agreed but they very never going to have huge crowds heading to either ground, and if Galway United were still going then they wouldn't have been let in i would think.

Dodge

20/11/2013, 11:30 AM

I'm not saying we should force anyone into the League, and I've not even hinted at that prospect, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing that up Dodge.

Because you, and others, keep mentioning we should bring in other clubs. I'm pointing out that teams don't want to be brought in. It's that simple. Talk of anything else is pie in the sky.

What should it matter if they are top of their league or not, if they have potential to grow as a club?

Really? You think a club without a modicum of success on the field is a good sign that they would know how to run a succesful LOI football club?

Dodge

20/11/2013, 11:41 AM

If you don't think Mervue and Salthill are the barometer for new clubs here's every club that's joined since 1990

St James Gate - Joined 1990, left 1996
St Francis - joined 1996, left 2001
Dublin City - joined 2001 (replaced Home Farm, left 2006)
Kildare County - joined 2002, left 2009
Wexford - joined 2007, still hanging on
Sporting Final - joined 2008, left 2010
Mervue - joined 2009, left 2013
Salthill - joined 2010, left 2013

We've also lost Newcastle West, Home Farm, Kilkenny, MOnaghan and had years out from Galway and Cobh.

Of all those team only Dubln City (twice promoted) and Sporting Fingal (one year in prem, cup win) had any success. The rest did/have done nothing

Dublin

nigel-harps1954

20/11/2013, 11:44 AM

Really? You think a club without a modicum of success on the field is a good sign that they would know how to run a succesful LOI football club?

Of course, after all, unless you win all your games, you'll never be able to run a good club.

Macy

20/11/2013, 12:44 PM

Are Wexford 100% on board for next year?
A six team league would be utterly laughable so hope so.
All rumour, but I've heard its far from assured.

NeverFeltBetter

20/11/2013, 12:53 PM

I know there is resistance from many here to a one tier league, but how low is too low for the FD? Would two tiers of 12 and 6 still be considered preferable to one of 18?

Louth4sam

20/11/2013, 1:11 PM

I know there is resistance from many here to a one tier league, but how low is too low for the FD? Would two tiers of 12 and 6 still be considered preferable to one of 18?

It boils down to finance. None of the top clubs would want a one tier league as the teams coming up would seriously impact on attendances. Home games against Wexford and Cobh rather than an extra game against Rovers, Pats, Derry or Sligo that would have a travelling support and are attractive enough to bring out the home support?

The first division needs to be sorted as a priority but not at the expense of weakening the current premier division sides.

nigel-harps1954

20/11/2013, 1:24 PM

So, a game against the likes of Finn Harps or Longford Town or Waterford United are less attractive than that of Bray, UCD or Drogheda (with respect to the clubs mentioned)?

I don't buy into the 'weakening the stronger clubs' argument. For the sake of one season I'm sure they could deal with the huge financial hit they'll be dealt with by playing a First division team.

Such a load of tripe.

Dodge

20/11/2013, 1:27 PM

nigel-harps1954

20/11/2013, 1:33 PM

Haven't first division clubs used finance as a reason to let them into the top division? What's the difference?

I believe the argument is, none of the First Division clubs want to be playing the same 7 teams over and over again. It's utterly ridiculous. The added finance is only a bonus. An 8 team First Division was a disgrace, and a travelling nightmare. A 7 team division is just completely unworkable.

Longfordian

20/11/2013, 1:38 PM

Maybe one tier is too big a change but certainly two up and two down with a play off could be workable. It reduces meaningless games in both divisions. I don't really see what a major blow that'd be to the Premier Division clubs that stay up. They might lose a few hundred euros in an away following but I'd imagine if the likes of Harps or Longford came up the away following would be fairly decent.

Dodge

20/11/2013, 1:55 PM

I believe the argument is, none of the First Division clubs want to be playing the same 7 teams over and over again. It's utterly ridiculous. The added finance is only a bonus. An 8 team First Division was a disgrace, and a travelling nightmare. A 7 team division is just completely unworkable.
Settle down. I haven't heard anyone suggest 7 is workable, Who are you arguing with?

Louth4sam

20/11/2013, 1:59 PM

So, a game against the likes of Finn Harps or Longford Town or Waterford United are less attractive than that of Bray, UCD or Drogheda (with respect to the clubs mentioned)?

.

Yes very much so. Only Harps and Shels of the current first division clubs traditionally bring any kind of travelling support and neither of which would add any home support. Seven home games with maybe 1000 less fans than we would get against teams like Rovers/Pats/Derry/Sligo. That could be a �70,000 short fall in gate receipts alone. Add in bar sales, programs etc and it's a whole lot more.

With no disrespect to the likes of Bray but I'm sure games against the Dublin sides, Dundalk, Sligo, Derry are important to keep them going. If they were to lose 5 of these it could tip them over the edge financially.

Mr A

20/11/2013, 2:56 PM

Louth4sam

20/11/2013, 3:04 PM

Seven games with fewer fans perhaps.. but the games again the bigger clubs would probably (lots of other factors of course, primarily form) draw higher crowds due to the relative increase in attractiveness.

Plus it seems to me better to have some clubs have to rein in their budgets a bit than to continue the bleed of clubs from the league we have currently- which sooner or later will hurt everyone.

Those games already sell themselves, there is very little attendance change for playing one of the big clubs a second time from what I've seen.

Reigning in budgets = weakening a team. �70k could be two decent premier division players.
Six new clubs in the premier division would also force up wages as more teams would be competing for signatures of Premier division standard players. If Harps were promoted would you stick to your current first division side or would you be competing with Drogheda/Bray/Bohs/Dundalk for the middle wage bracket players in the league?

Mr A

20/11/2013, 3:40 PM

We might raise the budget a bit for sure, but I doubt we'd be competing with any of the clubs you mention for very many (if any) players.

peadar1987

20/11/2013, 5:21 PM

The quality of "premier division player" would drop. The bottom of the Premier Division would be the 19th best squad in the country, instead of the 12th, and the playing staff would reflect that.

ForzaForth

20/11/2013, 6:07 PM

Haven't heard anything official, but from talking to people attending the U19 and womens matches at Ferrycarrig, the general view seems to be that the Youths will be in the First Division again next year. The threat regarding the loss of the pitch seems to have faded away.

I would agree with the general sentiment here that, with Mervue and Salthill gone, we're the most vulnerable of the teams remaining. Will post as soon as I hear anything more as you would think that the FAI would have to go with a single league if only six teams remained, all with Premier Division history.

Martinho II

20/11/2013, 7:24 PM

Mullingar aren't in the top 4 division of the Leinster Senior League and you want them in the LOI?
.

dodge no offence but I remember in 2001 all of the talk about Mullingar Town joining the league and in the end Kildare Co edged them out.. Surely Mullingar Town were in the same divisions 12 yrs ago or was the reason they were contenders cos they had strong financial backing at that time??:confused: