Another Nordie thread

[gspain]

Safety was a huge concern before the 1993 game. I think October 1993 was the worst month of the Troubles with Greysteel and Shankill being 2 high profile atrocities.

2 of my mates who had tickets pulled out after one had his father literally begging him not to go. This was more concerning visiting Northern Ireland as opposed to the game itself.

Those 2 tickets were offered around quite a bit and in the end were given away free if I recall correctly. Contrast that with our game v Spain in October 1993 when it was virtually impossible to get a ticket.

I still think the FAI shouldn't have made such a deal about moving the game but there were real concerns that our team could have been terrorist targets. It was probably al ot more dangerous than Tbilisi in 2008.

[geysir]

I don't know what happened at the Brandywell last night because I was down in bl%^dy Wexford at a match that never happened.

I wasn't aware of the trouble last night. Linfield have had issues with hooliganism at some games though. Previous Linfield v Derry games had gone off well apart from some local hoods outside the Brandywell who weren't at the game in question. The club have had actually made great strides to stamp out sectarian singing etc. They do have some way to go

If previous games have gone reasonable at Brandywell, ie no union jacks, no gstq, no Famine Songs, no Political songs, no constant attempts to wind up the Derry City fans in that crude way and no objects thrown against the home fans then it is curious why this behaviour has been reverted to.
I would have expected that Linfield would have distributed their allocation of tickets to their club members only.

[geysir]

Consequently, the only effect of Charlton's abortive and unjustifiable pleading was to further raise the atmosphere

So there was an atmosphere?
but it was Charltons fault?

P.S. Have you anything substantive to say on the issues

Why on earth would I want to be distracted on the lengthy whimsical drivel of what you consider to be debate?

or do you prefer just to make crass, florid ad hominem attacks on me?

When I do read some of your posts here, I have always directed my replies comments on the evidence of the content of your posts and your debating tactics, not on your person. Can you find one example of any attack on you despite even the severe provocation of answering some of your most ridiculous irrational posts on the eligibility debate?

[EalingGreen]

So there was an atmosphere?
but it was Charltons fault?

Once again, I never said that. Rather, I contend that Charlton's actions contributed more to stoking up an already febrile atmosphere than those of Bingham. Yet Bingham gets the blame.

Why on earth would I want to be distracted on the lengthy whimsical drivel of what you consider to be debate?

I have no idea what this is meant to mean. It's not even grammatical.

When I do read some of your posts here, I have always directed my replies comments on the evidence of the content of your posts and your debating tactics, not on your person. Can you find one example of any attack on you despite even the severe provocation of answering some of your most ridiculous irrational posts on the eligibility debate?

One example? On this thread you have described my posts as "blinkered, immature crap"; posted that I hold a "large bag of resentments", and make "immature retorts". When I asked you for one example of this "immaturity", you ignored it.
Instead, you misrepresent me e.g. by alleging I thought the situation in Belfast in 1993 was "normal", or that I am saying the atmosphere was (all) "Charlton's fault".
Further, you have avoided the points which I actually was making, such as that Charlton had a vested interest in getting the game moved to a neutral venue, or that the judgment of FIFA and the RUC over security should count for more than his.
Finally, you plead "severe provocation" (Eh?) over another thread entirely, as if that had anything to do with the topic in question.

Maybe you should just stick to the level of your opening "contribution" to this thread: "Billy B wouldn't be the first OWCer who creamed himself prematurely" (big smiley and all).
That's if my ribs don't pop entirely at your Wildean wit...

[Den Perry]

and if we joined up would we have to drop AnbhF in favour of some s hite to appease the North like the IRFU did?

F uck that.

Ealing Green,I respect your posts and they always seem well thought out,but can I ask you a question? If Rep of Ireland were playing for example the World Cup Quarter (knockout stages) against say, France or Holland, who would you be cheering for?

I always remember Sapin '82 and our whole family watching the game against the host nation and rooting for NI(I was only 9 and remember waking my baby nephew who was asleep in his Moses basket)

Then, some years later an RTE news reporter visited a pub in loyalist Belfast prior to kick-off in the Holland-Ireland game to see if the locals were supporting us.

Were they f**** one guy I rem saying that as it was the 300th anniversary of Battle of Boyne he would be supporting Holland as it was queen Billy's country blah blah blah...Now it gives me great pleasure whenever Northern Ireland are beaten...oh and that lad that was a baby in '82 grew up and played in Milk Cup when he was 16/17 and got vile abuse for being a "fenian b astard"...Like me he loves to see Norn Iron get shafted

[third policeman]

[quote=EalingGreen;1035217]So you aren't prepared to accept our testimony. You're not prepared to accept that of the likes of UEFA, SARI, the NICRC, Brian Kerr or Neil Lennon. You're not even prepared to accept the account of an ROI fan, GSpain, when he tells you that the whole environment around watching NI has changed completely since the bad old days.
Instead, you prefer to get your information from the TV.



Actually I get my info from a journo friend who is a die hard NI fan who goes to Windsor and all the away trips. I actually touched base with him earlier and ran passed him some of the sentiments expressed by yourself and others about the extent of the improvement and the level of cross community support for NI. His assessment (and he is a Protestant if that has any relevance).

"Things have improved at Windsor over recent years. There is still an element who indulge in sectarian chanting, but to be fair they are often booed down by other fans. I dont think mant Catholics go to watch games at Windsor. It's partly because of the history of the place."

"On the away trips I would say the support is 100% Protestant. There is more blatent sectarianism amongst the fans and a lot of abuse directed at 'the beggars' (RoI supporters). I wouldn't say that Catholic supporters would find it a very welcoming atmosphere."

Sounds to me that there is still a way to go. I am also confused by your willingness to tolerate Northerners supporting the RoI, so long as they dont want to play for it (Darren Gibson).

[third policeman]

PS EG

Cant make it this Wednesday, but if you are serious I will come to an NI game at some point in this campaign.

[co. down green]

the FAI's continuing attempts to "poach" NI-born players whom I feel should be ineligble"

Thanks to Nigel Worthington and Howard Wells for sorting that issue with FIFA for us and great to see new young lads from the North like Patrick McAleney, David McDaid and Seamus Sharkey all playing for Ireland at u19 level in recent months.

Perhaps you should have a word with your boss Nigel Worthington about "poaching".

Northern Ireland boss Nigel Worthington is hoping to swipe the services of Hull City striker Caleb Folan from under the noses of the Republic of Ireland.

Leeds-born Folan qualifies for Ireland through the grandparents ruling and has so far given his allegiance to Giovanni Trapattoni.

Folan has revealed he was forced to change his mobile phone number after pressure to play for Northern Ireland.

“Nigel rang me and I told him I wanted to play for the Republic,” said Folan.

Worthington said “ I spoke to Caleb to check out his eligibility and see where his loyalties lie, he was adamant that he wanted to stay with the Republic, but I told him if he changed his mind, he should call me. The ball is in Caleb’s court”

And then there was Leon Best and the fiasco of the North naming Alex Bruce for a NI U21 game even though he never declared his willingness to play for your team.

[EalingGreen]

and if we joined up would we have to drop AnbhF in favour of some s hite to appease the North like the IRFU did?

F uck that.

So what are you suggesting? That a side representing the two jurisdictions should stand for The Soldiers Song only, or for the SS and GSTQ? The former arrangement would not be acceptable to NI fans and I guess there might be difficulty selling the latter to ROI fans, at least for games played in Dublin. Games played in Belfast would be a different matter, I'd say.
[By the way, my above question was rhetorical. I don't actually want an answer, not least through not wanting to see this thread degenerate and get locked]

Ealing Green,I respect your posts and they always seem well thought out,but can I ask you a question? If Rep of Ireland were playing for example the World Cup Quarter (knockout stages) against say, France or Holland, who would you be cheering for?

Had you asked me that question a few years ago, I'd happily have said ROI. For instance at Italia 90, after Scotland got knocked out and my two Jock mates went home early (no surprise there, then!), I stayed on and managed to get a ticket for the Romania game. I was pleased for the team and the fans I knocked about with. By contrast, when I went to Bologna to watch England v Belgium, I was somewhat put off by the scummy element to their support at the time.
Anyhow, since the FAI unilaterally tore up the Gentleman's Agreement with the IFA not to pick players from each others territory, I now have no affinity to the ROI team. I'm not saying I actively want to see them beaten, but I'm not bothered when they lose. Indeed, when sitting in an Irish bar in Copenhagen a couple of years back, severely hungover after a hard-fought draw, I laughed as loudly as anyone when the TV showed the goals from the Cyprus v ROI game. (Curiously enough, none of the Bar Staff saw the funny side as we all sang "One Team in Ireland")

I always remember Sapin '82 and our whole family watching the game against the host nation and rooting for NI(I was only 9 and remember waking my baby nephew who was asleep in his Moses basket)

Fine. Anything else you want me to say?

Then, some years later an RTE news reporter visited a pub in loyalist Belfast prior to kick-off in the Holland-Ireland game to see if the locals were supporting us.

Were they f**** one guy I rem saying that as it was the 300th anniversary of Battle of Boyne he would be supporting Holland as it was queen Billy's country blah blah blah...Now it gives me great pleasure whenever Northern Ireland are beaten...

Right, so let me get this straight. An RTE reporter was sent out to get some "local flavour" in Belfast. Does he go to a City Centre Bar? No. A bar in Nationalist West Belfast? No. Maybe out in the direction of nice, leafy Malone Road. The Eg or the Bot, say? No.
He goes to a Loyalist Pub in the Shankill (or wherever). And what reception does he get? Well f uck my old boots! What a surprise! He gets told the ROI can eff off!
And not only does that still rankle with you 18 years later(!), but you appear to use that as an excuse to go from supporting NI to hating them. Congratulations - a very rounded and circumspect response, if I may say so.

oh and that lad that was a baby in '82 grew up and played in Milk Cup when he was 16/17 and got vile abuse for being a "fenian b astard"...Like me he loves to see Norn Iron get shafted

I can only regret that this happened to him, and also that some so-called Loyalist might have been depriving NI of a future international, for all he knew.
Anyhow, at least it could be argued that the lad in question has a legitimate excuse for not following NI. Shame, really, especially since if he could be persuaded to give us another chance and actually attend a game, he would see that he could do so without fear of being similarly abused these days.

[co. down green]

As for the 1973 game, I have no doubt that the Irish players were all delighted to get a rare (unique?) chance to play against the great Brazilian team of the era (along, no doubt, with the generous expenses and copious amounts of Guinness afterwards!)."

,

Not sure if the players from the North were influenced or delighted by their participation in the game back in 1973, but all have since declared their support for an all Ireland team – Martin O’Neill, Brian Hamilton, Derek Dougan & Pat Jennings. And not forgetting George Best’s support for an all Ireland team.

Also worth remembering that one of the reasons why Neil Lennon was singled out for sectarian abuse by the North’s support during the infamous game against Norway was because he had openly declared his support for an all Ireland team in an interview a few days earlier.

In his Biography Lennon talks of his regrets at not being picked to represent Ireland:

I would love to have had the chance to play for the Republic at Lansdowne Road, it would have been great, but it never became an issue I had to think about, Jack Charlton was the Ireland manager at the time, but he never made any approaches to me. By the time people were asking me whether I wished I was playing for the Republic it was too late. Still, I don't sit back now and think about what might have been. To me, playing for Celtic is just as good as pulling on the Republic shirt and that fact that I'm captaining this club to trophies and winning games in the Champions League means I can have no regrets.


EG, what’s it like knowing that most of your former great players would be happy to see an end to your team?

[EalingGreen]

Actually I get my info from a journo friend who is a die hard NI fan who goes to Windsor and all the away trips. I actually touched base with him earlier and ran passed him some of the sentiments expressed by yourself and others about the extent of the improvement and the level of cross community support for NI. His assessment (and he is a Protestant if that has any relevance).

No offence, tp, but of all people, a Reporter should know the dangers of "hearsay"! Why not get him to post on here, so we can all benefit from his experience and opinions?

"Things have improved at Windsor over recent years.

Indeed.

There is still an element who indulge in sectarian chanting, but to be fair they are often booed down by other fans.

I'm sorry, but I cannot recall the last time there was "sectarian chanting", or cause for the rest of the crowd to suppress it. In fact, unless he may be referring to the occasional isolated idiot/drunk, I'm astonished by that claim.
The only thing I can think of is a single, vestigial "No Surrender" during GSTQ, by an entrenched minority, which is just about impossible to damp down. (Think of it like when certain idiots like to "adorn" the Fields of Athenry with "Up the Ra", for instance).
Anyhow, as I said, I'd like to hear it directly from your friend.

I dont think mant Catholics go to watch games at Windsor. It's partly because of the history of the place."

Indeed. And I imagine the "history" is only one reason. The fact that many have long since switched to the ROI is another. Plus it seems that some people who are interested in "returning to the fold" are deterred from doing so, or at least keep it under their hat, because they live in hard line Republican areas.
And our long barren spell caused support and interest to dissipate, along with the decrepit state of the ground. And more latterly, the Block Booking/Waiting List system means tickets are scarcer than hens' teeth for most matches.
Then again, these last three factors also led to a drop off in support amongst Protestant supporters for a long time.

"On the away trips I would say the support is 100% Protestant. There is more blatent sectarianism amongst the fans and a lot of abuse directed at 'the beggars' (RoI supporters). I wouldn't say that Catholic supporters would find it a very welcoming atmosphere."

There may be fewer Catholics as a percentage at away games, but it is simply wrong to claim it to be 100% prod. For example, in Riga I roomed with a Catholic from Belfast (lives in London now) and his Manchester mate who, although English, has a strongly Catholic/Irish name (I didn't ask). Another Catholic from Magherafelt was in our club group. And I bumped into the first couple in Bratislava and know of some more who were there. (Oh, and every time I travel, I often end up drinking with a guy from Co. Antrim who is Jewish!).
But I would accept that there is a scuzzy element, invariably travelling independently (i.e. not with organised supporters club trips), who come on to certain "stag-type" destinations (e.g. Prague or Riga), though not to the other, less "exotic" or further, more expensive trips.
And whilst they're out on the p1ss, they sometimes revert to type. That said, it is always possible to avoid them, simply by moving to another bar, which regular fans invariably do.

Sounds to me that there is still a way to go.

Agreed, but I have no doubt that we have come sufficiently far that no-one need feel intimidated or deterred from joining the Green and White Army merely on account of their religious or political background.
After all, Marie Jones (remember her?) has been sufficiently persuaded to have become a "convert", now travelling with her family to NI games home and away...

I am also confused by your willingness to tolerate Northerners supporting the RoI, so long as they dont want to play for it (Darren Gibson).

It's quite simple, really.
Over on OWC, there is an interesting thread about the increasing number of English, Germans, Austrians, Czechs etc who are now members of the GAWA. They usually have no family connection etc with NI, but join in because they enjoy the whole experience. I'm sure it is the same with the Boys in Green.
Which essentially reflects the fact that you can support whichever team you like, even a National team. That is, it is am matter of choice.

Whereas, who you play for is most definitely NOT a matter of choice. After all, no-one can "choose" where he, or his parents/grandparents are born, and these are the basic criteria for determining which country you play for.

And although I am forced to accept that FIFA do not apply their Rules in the Irish situation in accordance with the above general principles, I still believe that there being two teams in Ireland, if you (or your parents/grandparents) are born within the territory/jurisdiction of one Association, you should represent that Association, but if you are born within the territory/jurisdiction of the other, then you should represent the other Association.

Of course, I don't expect you to agree, or even like, that stance, but I would hope you can accept that it is consistent, even principled.

Anyhow, I really don't want to go any further down that particular avenue; if nothing else, Geysir might start feeling "severely provoked"!

[EalingGreen]

PS EG

Cant make it this Wednesday, but if you are serious I will come to an NI game at some point in this campaign.

I was entirely serious, and would be happy to accompany you at the next home game I attend.

Btw, any chance you could get me a ticket, too? San Marino is one thing, but I often have difficulty getting a single ticket for myself for the more popular games!

[bennocelt]

By the way wasn't there some controversy this summer with a team from Dublin playing up North, in a youths cup?
I actually just got the tail end of that story, can someone enlighten me?

About poaching! Thats rubbish, you can be Irish and living in Norn Ireland and want to play for your country - Ireland (the rep version!). Amazing, I know, for some to imagine this but thats what some want to do now - which is their right

[theworm2345]

This show is available through UKNova or TheBox.bz

I just scanned the video...do they not even show the freakin goal?

[Gather round]

Morning all.

Ealing Green and G Spain have already covered most of what I would have said.

One area where I differ from EG, as other readers of similar threads here will know, is on NI schoolboy and youth players declaring for RoI. If they want to play for you rather than us, and haven't played for our U-19 or U-21 sides after age 18, then fine.

Lopez: look forward to some er, raciones and 'delusion' banter at a game next year, maybe. You got any trips to Croke planned?

I was quite pleased you qualified in 1994 (even immediately after the game; I was content with a draw). Didn't support ye in 2002, I'll admit. But I'm more or less over it now. I generally support the underdog in matches not involving NI, so count me in against Italy, and maybe Bulgaria and any notional play off.

Or Cyprus if ye ever get round to playing the whole island

[third policeman]

It's quite simple, really.
Over on OWC, there is an interesting thread about the increasing number of English, Germans, Austrians, Czechs etc who are now members of the GAWA. They usually have no family connection etc with NI, but join in because they enjoy the whole experience. I'm sure it is the same with the Boys in Green.
Which essentially reflects the fact that you can support whichever team you like, even a National team. That is, it is am matter of choice.

Whereas, who you play for is most definitely NOT a matter of choice. After all, no-one can "choose" where he, or his parents/grandparents are born, and these are the basic criteria for determining which country you play for.

And although I am forced to accept that FIFA do not apply their Rules in the Irish situation in accordance with the above general principles, I still believe that there being two teams in Ireland, if you (or your parents/grandparents) are born within the territory/jurisdiction of one Association, you should represent that Association, but if you are born within the territory/jurisdiction of the other, then you should represent the other Association.

Of course, I don't expect you to agree, or even like, that stance, but I would hope you can accept that it is consistent, even principled.

EG I love you to bits, but if I didn't know better I'd think you were educated by THe Jesuists. Are you seriously suggesting that there is a parallel between Czechs supporting NI and NI Catholics supporting RoI. If the Czech FA were facing a situation were maybe 40% of its population were supporting another nation, and some of their promising players were electing to play for that nation, I dont think they would be quite as relaxed about it as you are.

Your account of the Shamrocks v Brazil game (and its baroque conspiracy theories) is strangely at odds with the well documented version related by NI legend Derek Dougan. I dont believe that there is any evidence that this game was a cunning plot to undermine the IFA, the existence of the NI team and probably the very union itself. This is a piece of quaint mythology and quite probably the product of Unionist paranoia. You are categorically wrong when you state that there was little interest amongst NI fans in the match. There was a great deal of excitement amongst my NI supporting relatives in Derry and Newry and several uncles and cousins came down for the match. But maybe they dont count as real NI supporters? Well dont worry they got the message, like nearly all Catholics in Northern Ireland that I know they now follow RoI.

This is the nub of the problem. Most NI supporters dont really mind if nearly half the population support another team. Having too many of them around at games might spoil the fun. We would have to make too many changes to make them feel comfortable. What's wrong with GTSQ? It's our anthem isn't it, and what's wrong the flag and the odd bit of banter? Sure if they dont like it they can always follow "their" team.

It's all well and good pointing at a few Catholics who do follow NI and then suggest that proves that everything must be OK. Whichever way you look at it your support is massively unbalanced and you should think a lit bit harder and be more open to imaginative ideas if you really want to change that situation.

In the meantime I will defo go to Windsor with you for an up coming game. I have a client who seems to have sources in the IFA. He offered me tickets for a game last year, so I'll see what he can do with a bit of notice.

[ifk101]

Before the game, there was only one manager who was raising the atmosphere further, by
1. Trying to get the game moved to the Continent, when FIFA saw no need to do so;
2. Trying to avoid arriving in the home country at least 24 hours prior to kick-off, as demanded by FIFA;
3. Playing Rebel songs on the team bus to "gee up" his players;
4. Publicly refusing to shake the hand of the home manager after the game, despite it being offered in good faith and his (ROI) team having got the point they needed.
Both as a player and as a manager, Jack "Little Black Book" Charlton had a long history of getting involved in aggressive, even violent confrontation, with players, managers, media etc, including when he was manager of ROI. By contrast, Billy Bingham's record in this respect was impeccable.

Just out of interest EG, but were there any other sporting events that were cancelled and/ or move at the time of this international? If so, did Charlton not have justification for seeking the match to be moved?

Also was Charlton's decision not to shake Bingham's hand after the game linked to pre-match comments made by Bingham? Yes Charlton is hot-tempered but why was he so in this instance with a man of impeccable respect?

And what "rebel songs" were played on the bus? And why would "rebel songs" be used to gee up players that were not of "Irish extraction"?

[paul_oshea]

EG, I didnt fully understand when you said "SS" would not be would acceptable for NI fans, isn't the whole idea compromise, rather than "our" team and "we", this is what I was refering to initially when GR responded to my quesiton, I am not sure he fully understood what I meant, or the confusion I had. If GTSQ is acceptable for 50%, and SS is acceptable for another say 50%, then why cant both be played, even if you say its not and you want it changed, its currently being played, so why not appease those that you say you want to include in "your" support and play SS. The point I am trying to make is not about anthems etc, more that surely to include everyone, you need to make compromises, not base it on compromises that suit one side, as that isn't a compromise, If when you say "we" you mean the inclusive "we" rather than the "royal"()"we" then surely as TP pointed out, the situation and balance needs to change?

[lopez]

Bully for You.

Yes indeed. Remember that when you are wetting yourself with anticipation that Cyprus might have beaten us.

I see. So the visiting manager attempts to get the game switched elsewhere, and to avoid the normal protocol about overnight stay etc, despite being so directed by a neutral body, FIFA, and that does not risk inflaming an already heightened atmosphere? That's OK, then.

It is more than 'OK' if there is a good chance that the trick or treat boys might pay him a visit. Overnight stay? You being serious here?

During a period in the 1970's, it was decided by the Police that it would not be wise to conduct international football matches in Belfast. One of the chief, if not the chief, reasons was that such games risked being attacked by the IRA etc, as indeed happened on at least one occasion subsequently. The IFA acceded to such a demand, without it compromising their relationship with the opposing teams.

Are you suggesting that only actions by the IRA are worthy of being taken into account? No international games were attacked by the IRA until 1987. No teams would have been attacked by the IRA with the exception of England (not even Scotland seeing that in 30 years the IRA never paid Scotland or Wales a visit). England had legitimate reasons for not going in 1973. No one else had those reasons. I personally don't think that what the police said mattered. The rugby unions of Scotland and Wales refused to come to Dublin despite assurances. They would have refused to come to Belfast too.

And when, from 1975, it was increasingly deemed safe to return to Belfast, our opponents happily acceded.

B*llocks did they. Scotland refused to visit until 1980, which suggests they had the pleasure of two games at home advantage from 1975 to 1979. Why was this? Did the police believe that it was unsafe for Scotland to come, a country that the IRA never once touched.

Which brings me to the point of this 'neighbourly' rivalry that is such a feature of OWM. Even you admit that you supported them at the 1990 World Cup yet they pulled the 'we ain't gonna play Belfast city' card not once, not twice, not three times, but four times.

This is in no way similar to the situation in 1993, when the Police, IFA and FIFA judged that the game could go ahead safely, ultimately being vindicated by events, but the visiting team tried to reject their judgement, essentially in order to gain an advantage over the other teams in their Group. You can call that "gamesmanship", I prefer a different term.

What term would you prefer to call it?

(Oh and if ever NI are in such a situation, we shall see what they do and you may see my reaction. In the meantime, though...)

Judging by what the IFA does with regards to the recruiting of players, I'd guess it would be a hypocritical response. And I'd say you'd find some sort of excuse to support them.

The point was that certain other posters alleged that the NI team cannot appeal to both communities in NI. I merely pointed out from my own personal experience, that not only can it do so, but it actually does.

Moreover, as the message gets out about the reality of the experience, rather than the myth and the propaganda, that appeal is increasing.

Stop press. Some catholics support NI. What's the next exclusive? Some Catholics are unionists?

[lopez]

...
Lopez: look forward to some er, raciones and 'delusion' banter at a game next year, maybe. You got any trips to Croke planned? ...

I'm going to try to get at least one match at Croker before Lansdowne Road is completed, but I'm not sure when.