QuoteClingan's agent will be delighted with this thread
I thought you lot weren't interested in NI's team and our players? Anyway, he's likely to come up against plenty of yours in English Division 2 this term.
Most of us couldn't tell Clingan from an Archon.
I'm told by a source, that when the NI team line up for the ahem English national anthem, Sammy will be the lad staring at his boots.
Billy Bingham's "cheeky" conduct before and during that November game considering the tense political climate of that time was of a naive buffoon.
Probably only in OWC land would his behavour in that tense atmosphere be regarded as normal.
Which is a large part of what Marie Jones play was about - normalization of certain attitudes in society which in healthier places would be regarded as obnoxious.
Clingan's agent will be delighted with this thread
I thought you lot weren't interested in NI's team and our players? Anyway, he's likely to come up against plenty of yours in English Division 2 this term.
I think you really are deluding yourself if you think that we worry about how the O6C are doing when the final whistle goes of our games. In-ger-land perhaps, but NI never registers on anyone's scale.Originally Posted by Gather round
What is strange about this 'obsession' is that it too is based on one match, the same one you and EG claim we are libelling Billy Bingham. We wanted the game moved because there seemed to be a civil situation that might be going out of control, with the 'hated' Republic of Ireland's football team a not improbable target. Call it an attempt at gamesmanship, but if the shoe was on the other foot, I'd like to see the reaction there.
Teams such as Spain refused to go to Belfast in the seventies, though you (or many of your co supporters) don't seem to hold that against them. Nor is there as much bile towards Scotland (refused to visit Belfast until 1980 in the BC while Wales and England came back in 1975) or England (who also managed to skip a visit to Belfast then unilaterally, with the Jocks, pulled the plug on the IFA's biggest earner). And so, if you allow me my opinion, this 'rivalry' with us is in my opinion is based on religious/political bigotry.
As for Billy that night, totally naive to start stoking up the crowd in such a manner. I used to have a lot of time for him. I met him just once at an APSCIL awards ceremony at the Oval, where he justified his behaviour on us having too many 'English' players. After pointing out his own side's dubious claim to pure Ulsterness, I asked him if he thought, just maybe, someone with both parents who were Irish, might have more of an affintity with that country than the one he was born in, and he reluctantly conceded he might.
EG: Nice to know that there are RCs in your supporters' club in London. You'll be pleased to know there are a few Protestants in ours, whatever the f*ck that's got to do with anything.
This is the cooooooooooooolest footy forum I've ever seen!
Proud of your ignorance, eh?
Yep, he's no fan of GSTQ. Then again, neither am I. What counts, however, is that he's proud to play for NI and I'm proud to support them. I daresay we both leave it to others, with little to trouble them, to get exercised over two minutes of music, played before the main event starts. (I personally find it a good time to nip to the loo, for a last minute pee.)Before you point to the mote in our eye, you might attend to the beam in your own.
Before the game, there was only one manager who was raising the atmosphere further, by
1. Trying to get the game moved to the Continent, when FIFA saw no need to do so;
2. Trying to avoid arriving in the home country at least 24 hours prior to kick-off, as demanded by FIFA;
3. Playing Rebel songs on the team bus to "gee up" his players;
4. Publicly refusing to shake the hand of the home manager after the game, despite it being offered in good faith and his (ROI) team having got the point they needed.
Both as a player and as a manager, Jack "Little Black Book" Charlton had a long history of getting involved in aggressive, even violent confrontation, with players, managers, media etc, including when he was manager of ROI. By contrast, Billy Bingham's record in this respect was impeccable.
Do you need me to use the term "bloody hypocrite", or do you get my drift?
I don't know what land you inhabit, but mine is not one where I rely on 2nd hand "testimony", or the simplistic, puerile propaganda of a 3rd rate playwright who, when it came to her subject, couldn't tell her arse from a hole in the ground.
Instead, I prefer the real world of what I saw and heard with my own eyes and ears of an intensely competitive game, conducted against the background of a highly tense atmosphere, without anyone getting hurt or arrested, with no missiles or pitch invasions, no violence, and where an away fan was able to sit on his own in the midst of the home support, jump to his feet and cheer when McLoughlin scored, stay behind and listen on his radio to results from elsewhere, with the only adverse reaction being a couple of home fans saying "Jammy *******" on their way out.
Of course, if I was determined to live in the land which you seem to inhabit, I could allow my reaction to ROI fans to be coloured by my own actual experiences, including being forced, along with my fellow NI fans, to run for cover from a hail of stones as we left the main stand at Lansdowne, following the first ever visit of an NI team to Dublin in 1978.
But I am grateful that I have the experience, discernment and perspective to be able to conclude that that was then and this is now and that circumstances change in the interim.
Consequently, I would no more hold that experience against the typical ROI fan, than I would expect the average ROI fan to hold the events of 1993 against me.
Which is what the Play might have been about, had Marie Jones only the wit to know it.
P.S. In the meantime, I shall leave it up to you to decide for yourself whether you are an "average" ROI fan or not.
EG, Gather Round, please please accept that I have no desire or agenda to destroy or abolish the NI international team. My idea might be eccentic and impractical but it is sincere. As I mentioned i was brought up supporting NI and went to NI games before I ever went near an RoI game. Maybe that assurance will help you to deal with the suggestion on its merits rather than assuming that it is some sort of republican trojan horse (United Ireland football team by stealth). It's not a million miles away from the Shamrock Rovers v Brazil model, which of course was supported by Derek Dougan and a number of other NI playing legends.
I honestly think you are deluded about the progress that has been made with respect to the atmosphere, ethos, iconography at NI games and what this says to nationalists. Sure the atmosphere at Windsor may be more "family friendly", but to the average nationalist watching a game on TV it's only the size of the crowd that distinguishes it from a Linfield home game. The current position is dangerously self-sustaining. It's one of those situations where people on the outside are better able to see what's wrong and believe me there is a lot wrong.
I dont doubt your sincerity and I agree with some of EG's suggestions about the need for a neutral anthem (add to that a neutral flag and a ban on flags which are clearly partisan and exclusive and you might be getting somewhere), but accept I am not advocating the abolition of the NI football team. I have too many fond memories of spain 82 to want to see that happen.
thats a bit silly then, whats his problem!
I been to 2 NI home games in recent years - Azerbaijan 05 and Spain 06. The atmosphere was superb even for Azerbaijan.
The sectarian chants and songs from 1993 (Billy Boys, Sash, FTP) etc are gone .
The other thing that has changed completely is the colour. Many did not wear colours in the late 80's/early 90's and those that did wore red/white and blue. Now virtually everyone is in green.
GSTQ is played beforehand but if it is really that offensive to stand for it you can always disappear to the toilet for a couple of minutes or arrive late.
BTW what do you imagine goes on at Linfield home games? They have changed completely too.
The old, what about Charlton argument. What a load of blinkered immature tosh.
Before you point to the mote in our eye, you might attend to the beam in your own.
Before the game, there was only one manager who was raising the atmosphere further, by
1. Trying to get the game moved to the Continent, when FIFA saw no need to do so;
2. Trying to avoid arriving in the home country at least 24 hours prior to kick-off, as demanded by FIFA;
3. Playing Rebel songs on the team bus to "gee up" his players;
4. Publicly refusing to shake the hand of the home manager after the game, despite it being offered in good faith and his (ROI) team having got the point they needed.
Both as a player and as a manager, Jack "Little Black Book" Charlton had a long history of getting involved in aggressive, even violent confrontation, with players, managers, media etc, including when he was manager of ROI. By contrast, Billy Bingham's record in this respect was impeccable.
Do you need me to use the term "bloody hypocrite", or do you get my drift?
Digging into your large bag of resentments again which you have stored some place on your computer to copy and paste whenever the opportunity arrives as some sort of immature retort.
Of course from your perspective everything was normal in NI at that time. It's normal to have a massacre in one place one week followed by a massacre in another place the next week. Its normal to have machine gun police guarding team hotels, flanking team buses, flanking arrival of teams into the stadium.
Ans apparantly to you, it's not normal for Charlton to want to take an 80 minute coach journey to avoid most of that security detail, but it must be part of a conspiracy to wind up Billy Bingham's team by acting the maggot.
Bully for You.
There's no "claim" about it. To dub someone "Billy Bigot" on the strength of one (wilfully?) misinterpreted action, and in the face of a professional and personal record which completely refutes such as idea, is nothing other than libel - and offensively libel, at that.
I see. So the visiting manager attempts to get the game switched elsewhere, and to avoid the normal protocol about overnight stay etc, despite being so directed by a neutral body, FIFA, and that does not risk inflaming an already heightened atmosphere? That's OK, then.
And of course FIFA and the authorities in NI should make exceptions for the ROI team. Who cares about e.g. the rights of the Danes etc?
During a period in the 1970's, it was decided by the Police that it would not be wise to conduct international football matches in Belfast. One of the chief, if not the chief, reasons was that such games risked being attacked by the IRA etc, as indeed happened on at least one occasion subsequently. The IFA acceded to such a demand, without it compromising their relationship with the opposing teams.
And when, from 1975, it was increasingly deemed safe to return to Belfast, our opponents happily acceded.
This is in no way similar to the situation in 1993, when the Police, IFA and FIFA judged that the game could go ahead safely, ultimately being vindicated by events, but the visiting team tried to reject their judgement, essentially in order to gain an advantage over the other teams in their Group. You can call that "gamesmanship", I prefer a different term.
(Oh and if ever NI are in such a situation, we shall see what they do and you may see my reaction. In the meantime, though...)
Of course you are "allowed" your opinion, just as I am allowed the opinion that you are talking crap.
So Billy was "naive", and "stoking up the crowd", whereas Jack was merely indulging in (harmless) "gamesmanship"? Nice of you to clear that one up for me...
To concede that someone else might have a point, and so revise ones opinions, is hardly the mark of a "bigot", is it?
The point was that certain other posters alleged that the NI team cannot appeal to both communities in NI. I merely pointed out from my own personal experience, that not only can it do so, but it actually does.
Moreover, as the message gets out about the reality of the experience, rather than the myth and the propaganda, that appeal is increasing.
I heard that they were indeed a very lovely bunch of Blues supporters at the Brandywell game last night.
The Derry City forum is full of inspired prose describing their behaviour
Unfortunately, even if that is true, that wasn't the case for those fans who supported NI who were happy to see Mcloughlin score, I met a big cricket and rugby fan of Ireland, who was an NI fan primarily, but was happy to see AM score, when he cheered, he got kicked out and punched and spat at, and never returned to WP again, others on this site(know the person im talking about better than I do) can confim that same story. He also said he wasn't the only one on the night, and that was the last experience he ever had with NI.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
Though I see what you mean, Benno, it's not actually a problem, for him, his teammates or the crowd (including his family members in attendance).
Indeed, "Big Balls" is now one of the most popular players on the team and what he does or doesn't do during the anthems has no bearing on that whatever.
Are you seriously comparing the visit of Denmark to play in Belfast a year previous during that campaign with the visit of the Republic or are you simply pretending to be that naive? Seriously, you undermine your more articulate points by placing them beside nonsense like that.
As for FIFA okaying it I wouldn't put much credence in that given their faffing about over the Balkan issue during the Euro 2000 qualifying campaign for example.
I think EG meant in terms of the Denmark v Spain game, that it would have given us an unfair advantage had our game been moved outside of Windsor, rather than them playing in Windsor. At least I'd assume thats what he meant.
The point about comparing like for like, i.e. charlton with bingham is a bit patethic though in fairness, its like fighting over apples and oranges, no pun intended - im colour blind
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
I have no reason to doubt your sincerity, but I honestly feel you haven't the first idea of what NI fans actually think, or what motivates us.
Speaking for myself, other than the FAI's continuing attempts to "poach" NI-born players whom I feel should be ineligble, I have nothing whatever against the ROI team or its supporters. Indeed, as someone who was at Italia 90, including the ROI game against Romania, they generally have my goodwill.
But that is a million miles away from wishing to see the team which I have supported all my life, disappear into a merged team, whether that be a UI team or a UK one.
As far as I'm concerned, that simply isn't up for negotiation, and I wish those ROI supporters (and others who advocate it) would just accept that.
As for the 1973 game, I have no doubt that the Irish players were all delighted to get a rare (unique?) chance to play against the great Brazilian team of the era (along, no doubt, with the generous expenses and copious amounts of Guinness afterwards!).
But you are naive if you are unaware of the motives of the other key movers behind it.
For Louis Kilcoyne, this was a highly lucrative "payback" for his supporting Joao Havalange's successful campaign to succeed Sir Stanley Rous as President of FIFA. For Johnny Giles, it was a chance to raise his "managerial" profile to a wider audience. And for Derek Dougan, it was a chance for him to boost his ego, whilst delivering a snub to the IFA, with whom he had fallen out.
What it overlooks, however, is that there was no enthusiasm for the game that I recall amongst NI fans; moreover, not only was it opposed by the IFA, but according to Liam Tuohy, the FAI was none too keen, either, hence their being forced to call themselves a "Shamrock Rovers XI".
But don't let the facts get in the way of the dreamy-eyed romance, eh?
So you aren't prepared to accept our testimony. You're not prepared to accept that of the likes of UEFA, SARI, the NICRC, Brian Kerr or Neil Lennon. You're not even prepared to accept the account of an ROI fan, GSpain, when he tells you that the whole environment around watching NI has changed completely since the bad old days.
Instead, you prefer to get your information from the TV.
Fine.
Faced with such a mindset, there really isn't anything more I can add, except one thing, perhaps.
If I can get you a ticket for next Wednesday's game versus San Marino, will you come along and see for yourself?
After all, there is "More joy in Heaven etc etc etc..."
Hang on. It is OK for others to decry Bingham for whipping up the atmosphere, even though his actions were entirely legitimate, but we are meant to ignore the (unquestionably provocative) actions of the other manager, both inside and outside the stadium?
How is that "blinkered", "immature" or "tosh"?
Wtf?
How is any of what I have posted "immature"?
When did I ever claim that the situation in Belfast at the time was "normal"? Care to quote me to that effect? As someone who lived in Belfast for over four years in the 1970's and 80's, I don't need you to tell me what things were like then, thank you very much.
Who are you talking about now? Greece v Turkey? Serbia v Croatia? Russia v Georgia? Or any of the many other flashpoint games which take place all the time?
At both the last two Continental games I attended (Riga and Bratislava), there were literally hundreds of police in attendance, many of them Riot/Political police, whose guns and body armour etc made Robocop look like a Boy Scout.
That's not what I said at all. Following consultation with the local authorities, FIFA decided that the game could safely be held in Belfast. Charlton claimed it was too dangerous. FIFA were proved right and Charlton wrong.
FIFA also directed that the visiting team must stay in the home team's territory the night before the game. Charlton protested that they should be exempt from such a directive, claiming proximity and safety etc. Yet e.g. Vienna is as close to Bratislava as Carrickmacross to Belfast; plus the team's stay in a Belfast hotel was entirely peaceful.
Consequently, the only effect of Charlton's abortive and unjustifiable pleading was to further raise the atmosphere, not least since if granted, the effect would have been to deprive NI fans like myself of the opportunity of seeing our team play at home.
Not to mention the effect playing in a neutral country could have had on the ROI's chances of getting the result they needed to finish ahead of Denmark and so qualify...
P.S. Have you anything substantive to say on the issues, or do you prefer just to make crass, florid ad hominem attacks on me?
I don't know what happened at the Brandywell last night because I was down in bl%^dy Wexford at a match that never happened.I heard that they were indeed a very lovely bunch of Blues supporters at the Brandywell game last night.
The Derry City forum is full of inspired prose describing their behaviour
I wasn't aware of the trouble last night. Linfield have had issues with hooliganism at some games though. Previous Linfield v Derry games had gone off well apart from some local hoods outside the Brandywell who weren't at the game in question. The club have had actually made great strides to stamp out sectarian singing etc. They do have some way to go
I shouldn't have actually picked up on it here though as it could drag this topic down a rathole. I doubt if GR or EG are big Linfield fans given their avatars either.
Suffice to say though I brought my 7 and 4 yearold daughters to Linfield v Coleraine a couple of weeks ago (they haven't been naughty since
Leaving aside the unusual aspect of a "primarily" NI fan being unable to forbear from cheering when "his" team conceded a goal, I do not doubt your account. Nor do I condone or in any way defend the disgraceful treatment he had to endure, nor blame him in not wanting to go back.
But tell me this, if you were at a derby match in Dublin, Manchester, Glasgow or Cardiff and someone in the home end stood up and cheered when the home team conceded, would you be especially surprised if he received similar treatment? If not, why should Belfast be much different?
As I say, I don't in any way condone violence at football, or even the disgraceful chanting and singing from a section of the NI support at the game in question, even on the grounds that it was 15 years ago.
But I genuinely believe that we (NI fans) are being held to account to a higher standard of behaviour than other, comparable fans. Moreover, on this forum, at least, this is by fans of a team whose own, more recent record is by no means blemish-free. Or did I imagine a thread on this forum entitled "Today I felt ashamed to be Irish" (or somesuch)?
Which is not to say that I condemn the overwhelming majority of decent ROI fans for the occasional actions of a reprehensible minority - far from it.
But can't you see how I and others like me get thoroughly fed up at continuing to be tarred by same with the same old 1993/Neil Lennon/Night in November brush, when every reasonable and objective observer agrees that we have made huge and effective efforts to clean up our act in the years since?
"No" and "No"
FIFA said that it would be safe both to stage the game in Belfast and require the ROI team to travel up the evening before.
Charlton, who had a vested interest in getting the game moved to the Continent, demurred.
FIFA were proved correct, Charlton was proved wrong.
What did or didn't happen before Euro2000 has no bearing on what happened in Belfast in 1993.
Indeed.
Imo, the actions of the two managers in relation to this game are entirely comparable.The point about comparing like for like, i.e. charlton with bingham is a bit patethic though in fairness, its like fighting over apples and oranges, no pun intended - im colour blind
Posters have criticised Bingham for stirring up the atmosphere. Yet they entirely ignore the greater such effect of Charlton, as he wriggled and fumed in an attempt to overturn directive by FIFA which apply to every team under its jurisdiction.
For example, I had to spend a considerable amount of money to travel back to NI for that game, along with quite a few other NI fans. How do you think we felt when we heard that Charlton was trying to get the game moved at the last minute, on the grounds that he knew better than e.g. the RUC, as to what was safe and what was not?
I have no doubt Charlton must be as big a hero of ROI fans as e.g. Bingham is in NI and I don't mind admitting I'd have loved to have had him as our manager in preference to several of the guys we did have down the years.
But be honest, for all his genial, Guinness-drinking, salmon-fishing "Give it a Lash" persona, Charlton was also someone who could "start a fight in an empty room" (as the saying goes).
But hey, Bingham is the "Bigoted Northern Prod" from Central Casting, whereas Big Jack is the "Honorary Oirishman", so there can be no mistaking the villain of this particular play, can there?
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks