Another Nordie thread

[paul_oshea]

Not quite sure what a 'mock "Royal Wave"' is .

Anyhow, "most" people did not "get the idea he was stirring" - or at least those actually at the game, like myself. Rather, a few people, possibly with an ulterior motive and likely not even at the game, have spread Chinese Whispers. The worst of these was that he was egging the crowd on to sing the Billy Boys. Considering half his team was Catholic, why in Hell would he do that?

And why is it hard to understand that in his last ever game in charge, he would encourage the crowd to get behind the team?

Tbh, I think at least part of the reason for the many exagerrations and distortions of the scenes that night - and I accept there was much bad behaviour from many NI fans - is that the ROI thought we were going to be a pushover (esp having won 3-0 in Dublin).

The fact that we wanted to win it as badly as you seems to have been a bit of a shock. And I have no doubt that one of the reasons why the players in particular were so fired up, was to try and give Billy B a winning send-off - Catholic players and all. Not bad for a notorious "bigot", eh?

Or didn't you notice how joyously Jimmy Quinn celebrated his goal?

i have come to the conculsion that EGs thoughts are so deeply entrenched on one side, that he tries to reflect, mirror like, an image of ROI supporters to justify his own beliefs, reading this post I am even more affirmed in my view of this.

Thats not to say I don't enjoy his posts though

See EG, if we all start loving you and agreeing with you, would your opinion change, or would you just not bother to post?!

[ifk101]

I think before this thread continues on its "what Billy Bingham did or not do path", let's start seeing some video evidence.

The match took place 15 years ago. The only thing I remember from that night is Alan McLoughlin's goal, the result, and Jack Charlton's press conference afterwards when he said Alan McLoughlin finally justified his existance.

[Drumcondra 69er]

More decorum? Come on, it was a football match, not the state opening of Dail Eireann. Bingham did nothing wrong. Blame the minority in the crowd by all means. Hardly revisionist- we said it at the time too.

It was a football match with certain political sensitivites, I cancelled my trip up there at the time due to what was going on (and the lack of tickets). And I'd have been a regular visitor to the north rather then someone who'd not have set foot in it previously but the situation was as bad as it had been in a long time in November 93.

Look, I'd expect you to have a different opinion to us on it but sectarian chanting could clearly be heard consitently throughout the game on TV, maybe Billy was stoking it up when there was a lull in the sectarian aspect and the only chant in the ground was the 'one team in Ireland' chant but hat wasn't how it appeared. And I doubt for a second that Bingham wasn't aware of the sectarian stuff, it was clearly audible and wasn't isolated. Hence why I think he sullied his bib that night.

But it's all water under the bridge now and I certainly didn't let it spoil my enjoyment after the final whistle that night.

And even though it was 15 years ago it's hardly surprising we still talk about it given that it was the match that sealed our 2nd WC qualification, it's one of the most important results in our history.

[Gather round]

You knew what I meant, D9-69. Judging by this thread your fans still talk about the opposition manager almost as much as you do the qualification itself

[Drumcondra 69er]

You knew what I meant, D9-69. Judging by this thread your fans still talk about the opposition manager almost as much as you do the qualification itself

For reasons I've tried to articulate above. It's not something that regulalry gets dragged up at Ireland matches though, trust me on that.

That said, I've not seen any playwrights from the Republic write about it.....

We prefer to write about the likes of this....

In High Germany
http://www.irishplayography.com/sear...sp?play_id=278

I'd recommend it if anyone hasn't seen it, tends to do limited runs every now and again and I still have a recording of it from RTE from around 15 years back as well. Superb play.

[ifk101]

Judging by this thread your fans still talk about the opposition manager almost as much as you do the qualification itself

Obviously if reference is made to the discussed topic in this thread.

[Gather round]

This thread is hardly untypical though, is it? The subject does tend to recur- I find when your fans are talking about NI and England, and the likelihood of playing them in future, the games in 1993 and 1995 are invariably mentioned. At which point someone tends to say that the earlier date was when they stopped following NI, and that BB was to blame.

[Drumcondra 69er]

This thread is hardly untypical though, is it? The subject does tend to recur- I find when your fans are talking about NI and England, and the likelihood of playing them in future, the games in 1993 and 1995 are invariably mentioned. At which point someone tends to say that the earlier date was when they stopped following NI, and that BB was to blame.

Tends to recur whenever A Night in November does a run or, in this instance, is the subject of a TV programme. And I don't think 1993 was mentioned in any major fashion when the Celtic cup was announced although I'm open to correction on that...

Generally we prefer to talk about 1988 (or the 1990 (twice) and 1991 games) when discussing England...

[third policeman]

So we football fans must not express our opposition towards something which we see as threatening our very existence, for fear of being traduced and misrepresented, or associated by others with someone else's political movement?
Aye, right.

Think it was Gramsci who said that politics is everythig that concerns people, so like it or not ever contribution on this thread is a political statement, but we'll come to that in a minute.

Clearly I wasn't proposing anything that threatened the existence of the NI team, rather something that might help normalise neighbourly relations and help NI reclaim a deeply alienated element of its potential support base. The fact that you rejected it from the perspective of NI's existing supporters is indicative of the problem. You know as well as I do that the % of Catholics who now follow or support the NI team is on a par with former RUC membership statistics. Irrespective of their on field performances the NI football team has become "structurally flawed" and to that extent maybe you should ask your Catholic NI supporting friends or the many more Catholics who dont follow NI what they think of my "Celtic Cup" proposition before rejecting it out off hand. I happen to think that it might do more to dismantle the barricades that have been erected around footballing identities on this island than 1000 grass roots initiatives. If Irish history teaches us anything, it is that symbolism matters, its what engenders a sense of belonging and inclusion.

If you want me to believe that your pasionate and eloquent support for the NI football team has nothing to do with someone else'e political movement, then you should be wiling to conceed that the NI team has no absolute right to exist. If it cannot draw cross community support and contribute to reconcilliation and the building of a common identity in the North then what is its function? It's nothing more than "Unionism at play." I dont accept a situation where all Northern Protestants support NI and 90% plus Catholics support RoI as a reasonable expression of free choice. It's sad and dispiriting and an insult to the achievments of Blancheflower, Doherty, Bingham, Best, Jennings, Dougan, Armstrong, Whiteside. O'Neil. Lennon and everyone else who has contributed to a proud footballing history.

[Gather round]

Clearly I wasn't proposing anything that threatened the existence of the NI team

From our point of view, any suggestion that we support a joint team with larger country or countries clearly threatens our team. You must know this, so your suggestion looks like either a wind up (no different from my question whether you'd support a joint England-RoI team), or completely naive.

rather something that might help normalise neighbourly relations

In the broader sense (ie not merely referencing football) I think our relations are OK at the moment.

and help NI reclaim a deeply alienated element of its potential support base

As I mentioned above, there's evidence that many of this group now feel more welcome and less alienated than they did, which is great. An extended period without endemic political violence is likely to make younger fans less bothered about supporting both teams, although I think we'd be happy enough if your fans in NI simply saw our team neutrally.

The fact that you rejected it from the perspective of NI's existing supporters is indicative of the problem

Hardly. We can only really react to it on behalf of our own fans. Are you a spokesman for the potential new fans? If so, welcome aboard, but we're not interested in your idea. If it, or something like it, is a condition for your support, then thanks but no thanks.

You know as well as I do that the % of Catholics who now follow or support the NI team is on a par with former RUC membership statistics

See above. I think both numbers will rise during a hopefully less volatile period politically.

Irrespective of their on field performances the NI football team has become "structurally flawed"

Disagree. Support is welcome from all. Those locally choosing to support someone else is fine provided they don't stereotype our team unfairly to justify it.

and to that extent maybe you should ask your Catholic NI supporting friends or the many more Catholics who dont follow NI what they think of my "Celtic Cup" proposition before rejecting it out off hand

I did ask the one I'll be watching the game in Slovenia with. He agreed with me. I'd be amazed if more than a tiny fraction of our support, regardless of creed or politics, agreed with you. Or if many of your own fans anywhere in ireland or elsewhere did so.

I happen to think that it might do more to dismantle the barricades that have been erected around footballing identities on this island than 1000 grass roots initiatives

You're getting a bit carried away with the soundbites there. We don't want to "dismantle the barricades" (figuratively speaking), since without them, we wouldn't have any international team to support...

If Irish history teaches us anything, it is that symbolism matters, its what engenders a sense of belonging and inclusion

Yes, but so what? We already have a sense of belonging and inclusion, it's just different from yours and the other 51 members of UEFA Your're suggesting we give it up, and offering little more than empty cliche to justify..

If you want me to believe that your pasionate and eloquent support for the NI football team has nothing to do with someone else'e political movement

All international teams have some link with 'national(ist), in the broadest sense, politics. If they didn't, we would just follow club or ad-hoc teams.

then you should be wiling to conceed that the NI team has no absolute right to exist

Where'd you read that? Gramsci's prison diaries?

If it cannot draw cross community support and contribute to reconcilliation and the building of a common identity in the North then what is its function?

It does draw, contribute and build. As well as play football, like.

It's nothing more than "Unionism at play"

You're nothing but a wind-up with a few names to drop.

I dont accept a situation where all Northern Protestants support NI and 90% plus Catholics support RoI as a reasonable expression of free choice

Well, obviously I think it is such an expression. Given that we can all support who the hell we like. Do you think all NI-based fans are sheep with no will of their own?

It's sad and dispiriting and an insult to the achievments of Blancheflower, Doherty, Bingham, Best, Jennings, Dougan, Armstrong, Whiteside. O'Neil. Lennon and everyone else who has contributed to a proud footballing history

It's none of those things, as above. Their achivements are rightly celebrated- on that at least we can agree.

[EalingGreen]

Think it was Gramsci who said that politics is everythig that concerns people, so like it or not ever contribution on this thread is a political statement, but we'll come to that in a minute.

Clearly I wasn't proposing anything that threatened the existence of the NI team, rather something that might help normalise neighbourly relations and help NI reclaim a deeply alienated element of its potential support base. The fact that you rejected it from the perspective of NI's existing supporters is indicative of the problem. You know as well as I do that the % of Catholics who now follow or support the NI team is on a par with former RUC membership statistics. Irrespective of their on field performances the NI football team has become "structurally flawed" and to that extent maybe you should ask your Catholic NI supporting friends or the many more Catholics who dont follow NI what they think of my "Celtic Cup" proposition before rejecting it out off hand. I happen to think that it might do more to dismantle the barricades that have been erected around footballing identities on this island than 1000 grass roots initiatives. If Irish history teaches us anything, it is that symbolism matters, its what engenders a sense of belonging and inclusion.

If you want me to believe that your pasionate and eloquent support for the NI football team has nothing to do with someone else'e political movement, then you should be wiling to conceed that the NI team has no absolute right to exist. If it cannot draw cross community support and contribute to reconcilliation and the building of a common identity in the North then what is its function? It's nothing more than "Unionism at play." I dont accept a situation where all Northern Protestants support NI and 90% plus Catholics support RoI as a reasonable expression of free choice. It's sad and dispiriting and an insult to the achievments of Blancheflower, Doherty, Bingham, Best, Jennings, Dougan, Armstrong, Whiteside. O'Neil. Lennon and everyone else who has contributed to a proud footballing history.

Gather Round has answered point-by-point in a manner with which I concur completely.

So rather than repeating the same, I will just make a general point. There are no good reasons, never mind "barricades" [sic], why anyone from NI cannot follow the team should they wish. This happy situation is a consequence of a great deal of work, done by many different people and agencies, both official (IFA, "Football For All" etc) and unofficial (fans, "Sea of Green etc) over a number of years.
Of course, it is still a "work in progress", but already it has been widely recognised by independent and authoritative bodies, including UEFA, City of Brussels, NI Community Relations Council etc. Indeed, you only need Google "SARI" and "Brian Kerr" to see where he has praised NI football for its success in this field, comparing it most favourably with other sports in Ireland.

But the key component of the above is "if they wish". That is, we cannot force anybody to support us against their will, nor would we wish to, even if we could.

Moreover, we are not going to apologise for, and/or change, our very nature, just to appease people whose political outlook means that they cannot or will not support any team calling itself "Northern Ireland", especially if that stance is further misinformed by an outdated, ill conceived and even prejudiced view of the true situation, viz "Billy Bingham is a Bigot" etc.

Sadly, there is still a significant political problem surrounding the NI team these days, but it is entrenched in the minds of our detractors, not in our own policies, practices and procedures. In which case, I and all my fellow fans who are committed to the team will do all we can both to reform (where that is still needed) and inform (where people are still ignorant); we can reasonably do no more.

Ultimately, the people of NI will decide for themselves which team they follow and I am happy to leave it at that. For I have no doubt that all reasonable people can in time be persuaded to give us a try, whether they take it further or not is up to them.

And as for the prejudiced, the politicised, the ignorant and the "bandwaggoners", they may support whoever they like. We do not want them; moreover, we do not need them.

Beyond that, there is not a lot more I can add, so i will leave the last words to a former NI footballer, speaking at a Football For All Awards Dinner:
"People like Stewart [Fans Award winner] are the unsung heroes who have been brave enough to challenge sectarianism and who have actively created a more fun, safe and family-orientated atmosphere at international games. Fans like Stewart have made the atmosphere at Northern Ireland football games in recent years the envy of Fans across not only Europe but World football. From a personal point of view I would like to thank them for their efforts"
Neil Lennon, 2007

[third policeman]

Well, obviously I think it is such an expression. Given that we can all support who the hell we like. Do you think all NI-based fans are sheep with no will of their own?


My first two international matches were NI games in the 1970's when politics was a lot more divided but strangely football was not. I am not really sure why football is lagging so far behind other aspects of social and political progress in NI, maybe it attracts or encourages overly partisan and distorted outlooks. In a nutshell you think that two all-Ireland fixtures every couple of years is a priori unacceptable irrespective of whether it helps encourage cross comunity or cross border reconciliation, and you are happy to accept a situation where your national football team is not supported by nearly half the nation's population?

[EalingGreen]

Postscript:
I've just read an interview with Sammy Clingan, who has been forced by injury to withdraw from the NI squad for the weekend. In it, he is quoted as saying the following:

“I’m 100% committed to Northern Ireland and I love playing for my country and for that reason I am devastated to be missing these games."
“I missed two games in the Euro 2008 qualifiers against Sweden and Liechtenstein so I already know what it feels like to miss out on massive games. It is always a privilege to pull on the Northern Ireland jersey.”

And just in case you should be in any doubt as to who our wee Sammy is,

"There's only one Sammy Clingan,
Only One Sammy Clingan,
He comes from the Falls,
And he's got Big Balls,
Swinging in a Clingan Wonderland"

[Gather round]

I am not really sure why football is lagging so far behind other aspects of social and political progress in NI

I don't think it is lagging compared to those other aspects.

maybe it attracts or encourages overly partisan and distorted outlooks

Unlikely. Most other apsects of social/ political life in NI tend to be fairly partisan. Our outlook is only distorted in the sense that it disagrees with yours.

In a nutshell you think that two all-Ireland fixtures every couple of years is a priori unacceptable

Unacceptable, yes. For reasons detailed at length, so not quite 'a priori' if by that you mean that we're dismissing it without listening to the argument.

irrespective of whether it helps encourage cross comunity or cross border reconciliation

Winding up NI fans encourages them how, exactly?

and you are happy to accept a situation where your national football team is not supported by nearly half the nation's population?

I'd prefer the numbers were higher (as detailed above), but yes, I'm relaxed about the current situation. Your plan would not increase support for a NI team- its intent looks the exact opposite.

GR has answered point-by-point in a manner with which I concur completely

Ditto, thanks

[ifk101]

Postscript:
I've just read an interview with Sammy Clingan, who has been forced by injury to withdraw from the NI squad for the weekend. In it, he is quoted as saying the following:

“I’m 100% committed to Northern Ireland and I love playing for my country and for that reason I am devastated to be missing these games."
“I missed two games in the Euro 2008 qualifiers against Sweden and Liechtenstein so I already know what it feels like to miss out on massive games. It is always a privilege to pull on the Northern Ireland jersey.”

And just in case you should be in any doubt as to who our wee Sammy is,

"There's only one Sammy Clingan,
Only One Sammy Clingan,
He comes from the Falls,
And he's got Big Balls,
Swinging in a Clingan Wonderland"

That's great to read EG.

But who's Sammy Clingan?

Edit: Just looked up your reference point Wikipedia and he sounds like a right superstar.

[paul_oshea]

what i don't fully understand(well lots actually ) is the use of the word "we", when I read such comments as "we cannot force anybody to support us against their will", "If so, welcome aboard, but we're not interested in your idea" etc etc. Its like the "we" is some form of governing body over the team and its fans with beliefs based upon those from the very existence of the IFA.

[Gather round]

what i don't fully understand(well lots actually ) is the use of the word "we", when I read such comments as "we cannot force anybody to support us against their will", "If so, welcome aboard, but we're not interested in your idea" etc etc. Its like the "we" is some form of governing body over the team and its fans with beliefs based upon those from the very existence of the IFA.

Paul- I think I can speak for EG on this thread, when I say that we (ie he and I) are accurately representing what NI fans think on this issue. Our source? Hundreds maybe thousands of other fans on OWC, mainly. You could say it's a self-selecting sample, I suppose, but a pretty big one in a small country. Trust us

Obviously the very existence of the IFA is vital to us as international football fans. Because without it, we wouldn't be international football fans.

Just looked up your reference point Wikipedia and he sounds like a right superstar

He achieved more in Euro 2008 than any of your players.

[ifk101]

Well apart from getting Sammy Clingan into our line-up, there're no practical reasons for an "All-Ireland" team - a discussion that already has run its course on this site and a topic that has nothing to do with this thread.

I totally understand why NI fans would be against the notion of an All-Ireland team and, personally, it's an idea I'm against as well (although I'm obviously deeply disappointed about losing out on the services of Sammy Clingan).

He achieved more in Euro 2008 than any of your players.

Yes - totally agree. Time for Platini to give him an award.

[Gather round]

Thanks, IFK. I think we get the point about Sammy

It's on the thread because Third Policeman raised it. Given that, NI fans are likely to reply. If the mods ain't happy, no doubt they'll lock/ delete etc. as necessary.

[ifk101]

Thanks, IFK. I think we get the point about Sammy

Fair enough. Best to keep quiet about his talents or otherwise we'll have Dermot Ahern on Prime Time again